First of many...

[tonymetpolice]

I think all the complaining about rolling, ship interiors, why cant i play a bord drone etc etc is missing the point. this is an MMO, a rolling, ever evolving beast. this game will hopefully last years and if you think of it at launch like that you might feel better. Cryptic have years to add new content, tweak things, respond to how it plays with a whole server of people.



in time new aspects and things will be added. you may well get your ship interior. but for now enjoy it as it is. think of the joy you will get in a few years time talking to some newbie saying " HA i remember when all you had was the Alpha and Beta quadrants. this was all empty space!" ;)

[renderpix]

I can be pointed out as a complainer, but I completely agree with your OP. There is a time to stop for both sides, severe complaining and severe complaining about complaining. Really the only rolling going on right now is most likely being done by Gene his concept of humanity isn’t in the forums right now. I wonder what he would think since we’re all here for the Star Trek concept? I feel he would be truly disappointed, don’t you?

Reading your OP brought to mind the movie “I Robot” I read the book when I was 12 over and over again. Loved it and knew it like a concept. One day while surfing I saw the preview trailer and could not wait to see the movie. The movie came and I was completely and totally disappointed with the storyline when compared to the book. But just taking the movie in, one of the best I had seen in a long time. I have no idea how many times the kids and me have put in the DVD with a large bowls of buttered popcorn and have a great time. I think STO can and will do the same thing, having fun. And I thought if I can’t have fun in the forums why be here.

Thanks for the OP friend

[Sevok]

Yeah, well, this is kind of why I don't usually post on forums for games I've never played. ;) It seems kind of silly to complain about a bunch of things you haven't experienced first-hand. A lot of things look bad "on paper" and play out great, just like a lot of things that seem great "on paper" don't play out well at all.

"Wait and see" really is the best policy. :D

[Xibala]

Agreed. Griping and complaining are pointless. When Cryptic announces something, it is already pretty much set in stone anyway. My philosophy is to take the cards I am dealt, and play them the best I can. If I don't like the cards, I can always fold.

[gargamehl]

roll or not to roll, inerieur, etc.....look from an other point of view....

all that things are, more or less, HOUSING^^

housing, your own home, invite friends, storage-place of your "tresaure-cest" and so on....

just keep waiting, i´m sure, as in any other mmo, the point "housing" will come, early or later

[Kreedo]

why cant i play a bord drone !" ;)


Uhhh whats a bord drone ???

Its a space game so make it a space game with all the abilities of space no more no less.

[ZeframCochrane]

Agreed. Griping and complaining are pointless. When Cryptic announces something, it is already pretty much set in stone anyway.
I must respectfully disagree. Cryptic has said on many occations they are listening to these forums. Maybe some of the bigger stuff is set in stone but this game is still very much in development.

I agree with the OP to a point. I don't think we will be able to tell what will or will not be a deal breaker for a while now, I know I have to see a lot more to make that call. But what you call gripping and complaining I see as advocacy. Yes the discussions degrade to name calling and complaining and while some of that is motivated by the "I'm right, you're wrong attitude", much of it represents a passion for what they want from this game. This is the first and probably only Trek MMO we will get. People want to say their piece and hope to be heard.

To simply "wait and see" for many is not good enough.

[Loekii]

If we are going to paint 'constructive critique' as 'Gripes and complaining', are we also going to label the opposing viewpoints as 'Fanbois' and 'Sychophants'? No. Both are disrespectful.

Respect is a two way street. It is something that applies to opinions you may not agree with. We all have the privilege to post our opinions -- which is why you don't see the mods closing down those threads.

If you don't agree with the criticism, then provide a stronger case than 'you just cannot know what you are talking about' and 'just be polite and shut up'. Otherwise, the respectful thing to do is let people say whats on their mind, rather than branding it 'Complaining' and try to dismiss their opinions and points of view.

Imo, I see Constructive criticism -- and even simply criticism -- to be better than being 'passive' and/or cheering the devs on without question. Criticism might keep them on their toes and help them avoid a potential mistake. Praise just makes them over confident and prone to missing mistakes -- which is bad when you look at the history of the MMORPG market.

Now, the the meat of your post.


You are assuming STO will be a Smash Hit, in a market where 9/10 MMORPGs fail. Odds are that STO will fail, simply based upon the numbers.
Even if it does succeed, it might only succeed enough to support itself, rather than fund major Changes.
SWG has demonstrated that making sweeping changes to a pre-existing game, tends to be harmful

[RookActual]

You know what. Eloquence just went out the window. This is another fanboy 'shut up' thread. Do not join forums to discuss things and expect people to not be critical, particularly when you are critical of those people. When you cross the line of simply disagreeing with someone's point of view, and attack that person, you're a detriment to the proper function of the forums.

@Loekii: Any SCEA MMO, with the exception of maybe EQ, has proven that. PlanetSide was doing well until weekly balance patches became the normal routine.

[renderpix]

You know what. Eloquence just went out the window. This is another fanboy 'shut up' thread. Do not join forums to discuss things and expect people to not be critical, particularly when you are critical of those people. When you cross the line of simply disagreeing with someone's point of view, and attack that person, you're a detriment to the proper function of the forums.

@Loekii: Any SCEA MMO, with the exception of maybe EQ, has proven that. PlanetSide was doing well until weekly balance patches became the normal routine.

Looking at it I guess this is a complaining about complaining thread. But the second part of his OP is like when I was playing Eve, people complaining about there was not enough ships when there are more than 12 with some factions, but I can’t be exact right now. I would tell them in the day we only had 2 or 3. You know the walking in the snow to school uphill both ways with one shoe.

You and Loekii have kept cool level heads over this, as for me, duh. Disappointment made me really angry and I’m still not really happy about it. But bide my time, watch the ones calling whiner and complainer today not having the least bit of interest in what we wanted or understood the debate or even the importance of it. I’ll just sit on the side of the issues and watch how they will act with the tomorrows receiveing info that gives them 50 percent of what they least expected. I can see it now. And how will they act, just like we did. Well maybe not as bad as me, then again ya some will. Will they be whiners, naaaaa not a chance they’ll just be contribs wanting a somewhat realistic experience and a successful game, errrr does that sound familiar.:rolleyes:

What! This ship has 27 decks, why can I only walk (number), crew quarter aren’t furnished! I can’t customize what?!!
No planets I can use an EVA on? Where’s the different gravity. That’s the same world I discovered yesterday!
No telling on what is going to set people off about ground combat and movement. You can just imagine.
Then
I never saw that on any of the episodes etc etc etc
Some will go overboard believe me, they already have.
Stylized Star Trek MMO based on the Star Trek Universe. The only canon here is the one that capsized the tallship. can we call that a roll. See i'm bad, I know it, I quit :D

In general – stick me with a fork I'm done, flame resistant. Loekii & RockActual just keep rock & ROLLING. :eek:

Edit: Sigs are limited to 5 lines right? /face palm.........DOH!

[RookActual]

You and Loekii have kept cool level heads over this, as for me, duh.

Well, I enjoyed the orientation discussion, and I still believe the total sum of all the cases against it do not add up to it's omission. The only case that really matters, though, is that the development team did not incorporate it. I will always believe that movement could have been more fun. I just find it strange that most of the arguments against it were delivered in an 'indifferent' attitude rather than absolutely opposed. Those few that were absolutely opposed to it seemed to never have a justifiable argument, except to call us proponents whiners and complainers.

-ROOK

[KashikoiBaka]

Well, I enjoyed the orientation discussion, and I still believe the total sum of all the cases against it do not add up to it's omission. The only case that really matters, though, is that the development team did not incorporate it. I will always believe that movement could have been more fun. I just find it strange that most of the arguments against it were delivered in an 'indifferent' attitude rather than absolutely opposed. Those few that were absolutely opposed to it seemed to never have a justifiable argument, except to call us proponents whiners and complainers.

-ROOK

No matter how eloquent the speech, large the vocabulary, righteous the cause!!! It all breaks down to name calling. Though in some cases the words are so frilly it is difficult to recognize it as such.

[marscentral]

The problem is, people keep forgetting the golden rule: I'm right and everyone else is wrong, even the Devs. :D

[Gerrard]

See I'm the other way around. I canNOT imagine what the Devs have to go through to create a game like this. I applaud their work and deign to their higher knowledge of their craft.

This is NOT to say that I suck up to them or think they are always right. I think it's extremely healthy to continue to give them fresh ideas and thoughts. They don't know everything and can't think of every angle. However, when they make a decision and they state that they have thought it through and looked at it from every angle that they can see, is it STILL healthy to argue/dissagree with them? No. That one issue is far from the only issue they have to deal with. Let it go.

They don't want to put rolling in. They understand that most people want it. They've looked at it and said no.



Next subject.

[RookActual]

Next subject.

I love when authority is exerted where there is none. :eek:

I will continue to discuss what relevant issues I would like to, wherever I have permission from the real authority to do so. In this case, that would be Cryptic's moderators. If you see no purpose in a discussion, then do not engage in it. If you believe we are wasting our time, then let us waste our time, as perhaps that's what we'd like to do.

[WikiUltimate]

See I'm the other way around. I canNOT imagine what the Devs have to go through to create a game like this. I applaud their work and deign to their higher knowledge of their craft.

[...]


Applauding their effort is fine and even commendable. But think of it as school. You math teacher knows much more then you, thats why he's the teacher. But if you take a test and he marks one of your correct answers wrong, and that question is the difference between you passing the class and failing it, are you going to roll over and say "Oh well, he's the teacher so he's obviously non-fallible" or are you going to walk up to him and says " You marked my correct answer wrong"?

If you pick the foremost, you deserve to fail.

Yeah, well, this is kind of why I don't usually post on forums for games I've never played. ;) It seems kind of silly to complain about a bunch of things you haven't experienced first-hand. A lot of things look bad "on paper" and play out great, just like a lot of things that seem great "on paper" don't play out well at all.

"Wait and see" really is the best policy. :D

"Wait and see" is the WORST policy ever created by man kind. It has cost thousunds if not millions of live over the centuries. No one is going to die over a video game, but don't use flawed policies and say they are "the best policies".

[RookActual]

"Wait and see" is the WORST policy ever created by man kind. It has cost thousunds if not millions of live over the centuries. No one is going to die over a video game, but don't use flawed policies and say they are "the best policies".

The "Wait and See" policy is only properly applied when there is no other alternative. If there is no other alternative for this MMORPG, then the forums should be immediately shut down.

[tonymetpolice]

my original point of the OP was not to say that you couldnt complain or talk about what you wanted. was trying to make the point that the game at launch is just a starting point and im sure it will evolve and grow. in fact once players are on the servers they will have a much bigger influence in how the game grow and changes. especially when you have the threat of taking your money elsewhere!!

[RookActual]

my original point of the OP was not to say that you couldnt complain or talk about what you wanted. was trying to make the point that the game at launch is just a starting point and im sure it will evolve and grow. in fact once players are on the servers they will have a much bigger influence in how the game grow and changes. especially when you have the threat of taking your money elsewhere!!

If the problem is big enough, it can kill the game. There are hundreds of years of combined experience of MMO players on these forums, the Dev's know this is a resource to help prevent the unforeseen casualty.

[redbeard1682]

First - if that was your intent - it didn't come out like that. Because I read - "stop complaining and don't threaten to not buy the game - because we all know you will" ....The marvelous world of misinterpretation of electronic data. You are not the first to do this - so I'll answer you and the rest of the people that have read me arguing about why full range of motion (among other things not included) should be incorporated into STO.

I've played a lot of MMO's and the only one that REALLY changed its gameplay was SWG. And that was a catastrophe. Rolling, ships interiors, etc. - that really seems like a whole new product to me. So if we can get in an opinion now that says - stop the presses! what are you doing! this is important to us! Maybe the dev's will say - "oh ok - maybe we should include it in." Especially if enough people get behind a particular subject and cause enough commotion. The squeaky wheel gets the grease my friend.

I've read several times that the Dev's know what their doing. LOL. DUH!!!! I think we all know that they are - otherwise Atari wouldn't have given them the time of day. But not everyone is going to see eye to eye on how the game should go out.

I think a lot of you guys are so desperate for a star trek mmo that you don't really care what comes out as long as it comes out. You are willing to accept the consequences regardless of gameplay decisions that the dev's have described. Most genuine fans of Star Trek will probably own just to own it - like we do everything else. But mainstream people who maybe just recently saw the new Star Trek movie are not going to go for it if it's not GREAT. The whole business world is about "good to great". I think these forums start as a good jumping point for weeding out the good ideas and handing back great ideas.

I've also read that we don't know what the final product is going to look like and we should wait and see. Yea, I'm really hoping to be surprised and astounded by ship combat. But from the descriptions we have - I can put 2 and 2 together to get 5.....;) close enough to 4 to understand what the Dev's are going for. And I don't like it so :p . I won't stop giving my suggestions until launch day.

So to us complainers and perfectionists GO TEAM GO!

[Zepath]

The problem with the customer having a venue to voice his complaints is, its a microscopic point of view in comparison to the big picture.

Cryptic isn't writing a game 100 of us want, they are writing a game that (they hope) will appeal to 1000s and 1000s of people. And just like with politicians, you are going upset some people no matter what you decide.

The other problem is, they can't publish (and frankly I wouldn't want to read) all the discussions that lead to the final decision about a given aspect of the game. Maybe X was left out because Y was clearly more important to the players and they couldn't do both, or couldn't do both right now. They aren't going to tell us that, and they aren't obligated to.

Finally, gamers are often too quick to forget, this isn't a game for them ... its a business. While they may love their product and want it to appeal to as many people as possible ... its still a product, this is a business, and they make their decision based on costs, delivery time-frames, market data, and what they conclude will sell the most copies and retain the most subscriptions.

In the end, its their game. Their product. Its their money. We're along for the ride. We can appreciate they allow us to ramble here, and that they listen. But I don't expect them to write this game for just me, anymore than I expect Ford to design their truck for just me.

[RookActual]

In the end, its their game. Their product. Its their money. We're along for the ride. We can appreciate they allow us to ramble here, and that they listen. But I don't expect them to write this game for just me, anymore than I expect Ford to design their truck for just me.

So, I don't have to pay for the game? You're right, it is a business, but it won't be their money until we hand it to them. They do have to convince thousands, perhaps even millions, of people to play this game. Naturally, not everyone's voice is going to be heard, but at least here they can examine that voice without cost in profits. Developers do not want to 'wait and see' as a lot of the members are encouraging us to. If the Developer 'waits to see', then they may have no idea why their subscribers are dropping off. You do not get a lot of chances to get it done right in the gaming industry. It's do it right the first time, or start shutting down servers(of course, that really doesnt apply here), or start firing employees. Fewer employees means slower response to problems, and delayed expansions for more content.

They may not hear all of our voices, but you can see they're listening. If they didn't find this forum a valuable resource, it would not be here....because, like you said, it's a business.

I'm not being endowed with a divine gift by the demigods of game design here, I'm buying a product that is intended to entertain me. I'm letting the developers know what entertains me, as should everyone with as much interest in the game as most of us have.

[erriku]

So, I don't have to pay for the game? You're right, it is a business, but it won't be their money until we hand it to them. They do have to convince thousands, perhaps even millions, of people to play this game. Naturally, not everyone's voice is going to be heard, but at least here they can examine that voice without cost in profits. Developers do not want to 'wait and see' as a lot of the members are encouraging us to. If the Developer 'waits to see', then they may have no idea why their subscribers are dropping off. You do not get a lot of chances to get it done right in the gaming industry. It's do it right the first time, or start shutting down servers(of course, that really doesnt apply here), or start firing employees. Fewer employees means slower response to problems, and delayed expansions for more content.

They may not hear all of our voices, but you can see they're listening. If they didn't find this forum a valuable resource, it would not be here....because, like you said, it's a business.

I'm not being endowed with a divine gift by the demigods of game design here, I'm buying a product that is intended to entertain me. I'm letting the developers know what entertains me, as should everyone with as much interest in the game as most of us have.

I see the counter-complainers are starting to get to you Rook.

[RookActual]

I see the counter-complainers are starting to get to you Rook.

Every forum member has the same privileges here(not rights, mind you). I suppose within that privilege they have the liberty to demand the silence of others. They are, however, bigger fools than they think we are if they believe those demands will be respected. I can not force anyone to believe my statements are complaints, criticism or suggestions, despite what I believe them to be. I can only claim that my statements are made because I believe they would be beneficial, and not just to myself.

Obviously, I believe there to be merit in something if I am to recommend it. Moreso, even without the benefit of the suggestions' implementation, at least it was a very strong academic exercise. When I disagree with a recommendation, I state why I do, and hopefully I can provide an alternative or a compromise. What I never do is tell someone to effectively shut up because I disagree with them. Anyone with that attitude should heed their own advice.

I should ignore them, as they have no real ability but to continue complaining about my statements, and the frequency of those statements. It's just disappointing to me on a Trek forum, I would expect this on many other forums.

[erriku]

Every forum member has the same privileges here(not rights, mind you). I suppose within that privilege they have the liberty to demand the silence of others. They are, however, bigger fools than they think we are if they believe those demands will be respected. I can not force anyone to believe my statements are complaints, criticism or suggestions, despite what I believe them to be. I can only claim that my statements are made because I believe they would be beneficial, and not just to myself.

Obviously, I believe there to be merit in something if I am to recommend it. Moreso, even without the benefit of the suggestions' implementation, at least it was a very strong academic exercise. When I disagree with a recommendation, I state why I do, and hopefully I can provide an alternative or a compromise. what I never do is tell someone to effectively shut up because I disagree with them. Anyone with that attitude should heed their own advice.

Ah. There is the Rook that I know and love. I do agree with this post even though I have disagreed with some of your concerns. I even believe your concerns are valid.

[RookActual]

Ah. There is the Rook that I know and love. I do agree with this post even though I have disagreed with some of your concerns. I even believe your concerns are valid.

I appreciate it. I will admit, I am usually excited to participate in the discussions here. I have said this before, and will say it again. I have played horrible games in the past that were made great by a strong community. That is why I feel Trek may survive, but also why I am disappointed lately. Not because something I so strongly believed in got shot down, but rather because a lot of forum members have been shooting those of us who were likeminded down. I believe Trek is about community, and if Cryptic pushes the community aspect, then this game can not fail, no matter if I agree with some of the mechanics or not. Lately, though, it's felt more like a war on here than an open debate.

[GambitAce]

We should remember that there is a difference between contructive criticism and complaining. I am glad that the developers want to see what we the fans and the gamers would like to see and I appreciate them taking the time to see all the opinions of the matter but we must also remember that none of us are the same person and that we will all disagree at some point because it is the nature of the beast. In the end we can still resepect each others opinions as long as they do not cross personal lines.

[tonymetpolice]

I appreciate it. I will admit, I am usually excited to participate in the discussions here. I have said this before, and will say it again. I have played horrible games in the past that were made great by a strong community. That is why I feel Trek may survive, but also why I am disappointed lately. Not because something I so strongly believed in got shot down, but rather because a lot of forum members have been shooting those of us who were likeminded down. I believe Trek is about community, and if Cryptic pushes the community aspect, then this game can not fail, no matter if I agree with some of the mechanics or not. Lately, though, it's felt more like a war on here than an open debate.


definetly. ive noticed recently that debates are becoming less about actually discussing the gameplay mechanics (such as the little we know about them) and more about cussing each other. as a 29 year old man i dont have the time or inclination for it. i have alot of things in my life and when i do get time to come on here i want to talk about the game and different ideas, possibilities there are for it. not get into some childish mud slinging competion that sounds like its coming out of the mouth of a teenager and amounts to "im right and thats it!!"



though i will put forward this as a theory. i think the reason that people are getting tetchy is the not helped by the fact that like someone pointed out earlier, there is hardly any information for the game. most of the stuff we are talking about this is purely spectulative.made up. a possiblity. educated guess. and there has been such a wait for substantial information that every last morsel has been discussed and diseccted and people are ust getting fed up!!

[Sobekeus]

Free Maneuvering is not 'something they will add later', it will either be in at launch or not at all...and the longer they delay, the less time they will have to balance the difference it makes in their combat model.

[onesoul1982]

The problem with the customer having a venue to voice his complaints is, its a microscopic point of view in comparison to the big picture.

Cryptic isn't writing a game 100 of us want, they are writing a game that (they hope) will appeal to 1000s and 1000s of people. And just like with politicians, you are going upset some people no matter what you decide.

The other problem is, they can't publish (and frankly I wouldn't want to read) all the discussions that lead to the final decision about a given aspect of the game. Maybe X was left out because Y was clearly more important to the players and they couldn't do both, or couldn't do both right now. They aren't going to tell us that, and they aren't obligated to.

Finally, gamers are often too quick to forget, this isn't a game for them ... its a business. While they may love their product and want it to appeal to as many people as possible ... its still a product, this is a business, and they make their decision based on costs, delivery time-frames, market data, and what they conclude will sell the most copies and retain the most subscriptions.

In the end, its their game. Their product. Its their money. We're along for the ride. We can appreciate they allow us to ramble here, and that they listen. But I don't expect them to write this game for just me, anymore than I expect Ford to design their truck for just me.

Well I agree to a point...I don't want to see STO shut down after four years of being Live. I'd like to see STO run for a good chunk of time..so hopefully Cryptic will develop a game many people like...and not sell out to SOE. >.>

[drays917]

I've kind of done a complete 180 here...before I thought that people should stop complaining and accept whatever Cryptic says, and just go with it - but after reading some of your posts (Loekii and Rook come to mind), I see the value in airing criticisms, so long as they are constructive. I still don't necessarily think there's any value to saying "Well, since the game doesn't have so-and-so I won't play it", but I do think there is merit in stating your opinion, so long as it comes with an open mind.

Very persuasive, folks.

[RookActual]

I still don't necessarily think there's any value to saying "Well, since the game doesn't have so-and-so I won't play it"


There is no sincere purpose in making threats. I agree with this. Criticism at the end of a sword is not really criticism. I doubt the development staff would be receptive to their decision making process being held under duress.

[Napalm006]

I appreciate it. I will admit, I am usually excited to participate in the discussions here. I have said this before, and will say it again. I have played horrible games in the past that were made great by a strong community. That is why I feel Trek may survive, but also why I am disappointed lately. Not because something I so strongly believed in got shot down, but rather because a lot of forum members have been shooting those of us who were likeminded down. I believe Trek is about community, and if Cryptic pushes the community aspect, then this game can not fail, no matter if I agree with some of the mechanics or not. Lately, though, it's felt more like a war on here than an open debate.

They invade our forums, and we fall back. They assimilate entire threads, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far and no further!... :D

lol couldnt resist.

[RookActual]

They invade our forums, and we fall back. They assimilate entire threads, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far and no further!... :D

lol couldnt resist.

you should make them pay for what they've done, Napalm. You running short on vengefuline tonight or something?