Odd observation about time travel

[Father_Origin]

I am glad that cryptic put out the information on the time effects of the
latest movie and how it effects (if any) the game.

Bravo...

Now you will *if you want to stay canon" have to observe a maximum
limit on time travel or players would get caught by the alternate timeline.

players could go back into time on the Prime timeline upto a few seconds where
Nero arrived..np, he is on the alternate time..your safe.

IF

you go back before he arrived..your toast and would logically be forced
to travel the alternate timeline...unless someone in the prime timeline could grab you back.

that sortta happened in Next Gen, those thousands of timelines didn't go to the prime,
they were pulled there from the prime.


So in short, if player time travel before Nero, they are going to need an anchor of somekind
or else they get lost in the alternate time

a minor but important plot device.

[Arcticfrost]

I am glad that cryptic put out the information on the time effects of the
latest movie and how it effects (if any) the game.

Bravo...

Now you will *if you want to stay canon" have to observe a maximum
limit on time travel or players would get caught by the alternate timeline.

players could go back into time on the Prime timeline upto a few seconds where
Nero arrived..np, he is on the alternate time..your safe.

IF

you go back before he arrived..your toast and would logically be forced
to travel the alternate timeline...unless someone in the prime timeline could grab you back.

that sortta happened in Next Gen, those thousands of timelines didn't go to the prime,
they were pulled there from the prime.


So in short, if player time travel before Nero, they are going to need an anchor of somekind
or else they get lost in the alternate time

a minor but important plot device.

Interesting post, however I just think the devs are going to use the it’s just a game it doesn’t have to make since, just like the producers of the new star trek movie used the it’s just a movie line.

[Galv]

If anyone from the prime universe travels back in time why would there be a problem? They'll just travel back in the prime timeline. Wow all this timeline rubbish because fans were so concerned about cannon great stuff!!.

[perfect_nosferatu]

If anyone from the prime universe travels back in time why would there be a problem? They'll just travel back in the prime timeline. Wow all this timeline rubbish because fans were so concerned about cannon great stuff!!.

What Father Origin is trying to say is that if you travel back in time along the prime timeline to before the period that Nero travelled and therefore survived in that timeline until he arrives then you would be forced to travel along the alternate timeline.

[Galv]

What Father Origin is trying to say is that if you travel back in time along the prime timeline to before the period that Nero travelled and therefore survived in that timeline until he arrives then you would be forced to travel along the alternate timeline.

No because he won't appear in the prime time line because he hadn't got there yet. That's the whole point of making it an alternate timeline. In the primetime line nero doesn't travel back until 2388 or somewhere near.

The primetimeline isn't affected by the new movie timeline at all.

[Arcticfrost]

No because he won't appear in the prime time line because he hadn't got there yet. That's the whole point of making it an alternate timeline. In the primetime line nero doesn't travel back until 2388 or somewhere near.

The primetimeline isn't affected by the new movie timeline at all.

Ahh nothing like discussing temporal paradoxes

Excuse me wail my head explodes

[Galv]

Ahh nothing like discussing temporal paradoxes

Excuse me wail my head explodes

Indeed, nothing worse than using time travel to explain events.

[Ora]

I am glad that cryptic put out the information on the time effects of the
latest movie and how it effects (if any) the game.

Bravo...

Now you will *if you want to stay canon" have to observe a maximum
limit on time travel or players would get caught by the alternate timeline.

players could go back into time on the Prime timeline upto a few seconds where
Nero arrived..np, he is on the alternate time..your safe.

IF

you go back before he arrived..your toast and would logically be forced
to travel the alternate timeline...unless someone in the prime timeline could grab you back.

that sortta happened in Next Gen, those thousands of timelines didn't go to the prime,
they were pulled there from the prime.


So in short, if player time travel before Nero, they are going to need an anchor of somekind
or else they get lost in the alternate time

a minor but important plot device.

As I ubnderstand it both the Prime timeline and Neros timeline have equal validity, when Nero returns to his past he ceated an entire alternate universe withh a set past and maliable future based on actions and reactions of cognisant entities within this new universe. In order for anything to happen it has to be observed (See also Shroedinger's Cat hypotheses)

New universes are created when the fractal nature of the chronosynclastic trans perabulation is disrupted by critical imbalance of resurgent matter at a significant temporal gradient to the universal constant, resulting in a polarisation od the dimentional 'branes. This obviously creates a standing harmonic in the 'branes vertical lucidity with the result of a massive discharge of Higgs bosons.

Or to put it another way... its sci-fi.

[indigowhale345]

I would have to say no. As its been described, the prime timeline is entirely separate from the new movie timeline, else there would be obvious repercussions of Nero and Spock happening in the prime timeline, which there are not.

Lets explain it another way. Make yourself a couple of tacos, set them side by side. Now for arguments sake, these are identical tacos. Same amount of meat, spice, and all the fixings. One of them is your prime taco, the other is the alternate taco.

So tilt your prime taco up and down, shake it up, shift the contents around, whatever, and that is normal time travel as we have seen in all the episodes. However for the events of the movie, take a couple of pieces of meat out of one end of the prime taco and put them in the middle of the alternate taco. These represent Spock and Nero and their going back in time. But not only have they gone through time, they have left the prime taco and are now in the alternate taco. You can continue to shake up the prime taco all you want in terms of time travel, but it won't affect the alternate taco, and vice versa, because its an entirely separate taco.

Now eat the tacos.

So to sum it up, Spock and Nero did not just go back in time. They also crossed into an entirely independent alternate universe, one with events that were identical to the prime universe up until the point Nero entered it. Normal time travel, according to Trek lore, does not allow you to cross into alternate universes, so going back in time in the prime universe prior to Nero/Spock won't put you in the alternate universe, it keeps you in the prime universe.

[Awarkle]

they went through a black hole and didnt slingshot around the sun therefore it could be anywhere :D

only slingshotting around the sun to save either


1. airmen

2. whales

works in time travel :D

[Vlherg]

Nero & Spock didn't just go backwards in time, they also went sideways in time. Into another universe that just happened to be identical to "our" universe prior to his arrival but since his arrival has become very different.
They could just have easily ended up in the mirror universe and affected their future.

[walker555]

I am glad that cryptic put out the information on the time effects of the
latest movie and how it effects (if any) the game.

Bravo...

Now you will *if you want to stay canon" have to observe a maximum
limit on time travel or players would get caught by the alternate timeline.

players could go back into time on the Prime timeline upto a few seconds where
Nero arrived..np, he is on the alternate time..your safe.

IF

you go back before he arrived..your toast and would logically be forced
to travel the alternate timeline...unless someone in the prime timeline could grab you back.

that sortta happened in Next Gen, those thousands of timelines didn't go to the prime,
they were pulled there from the prime.


So in short, if player time travel before Nero, they are going to need an anchor of somekind
or else they get lost in the alternate time

a minor but important plot device.



NOTE: In this post I interchange the words universe and reality, so when I say alternate universe I mean alternate reality



This theory does not at all factor in the alternate reality idea. Going back in time does not necessarily take you to an alternate reality. In fact, just look at the mirror universe, and how they have to get there. Also, you have to look at all the times star trek has gone back and time, and how they have no knowledge of the existence of that universe. It should also be said that every time Star Trek time travels it appears that they are reaching the same destination universe, not necessarily their own but one that is almost exactly the same, the difference being something tiny like one day archer fed his dog supplement A instead of B, something so minute that it would not alter the timeline from the prime universe in any significant manner, but it would still create a secondary reality because there IS a difference.

For every action that is taken/occurs an infinite number of realities are created where a different action happens/occurs. Because of this, one could say that EVERYTHING happens. Right now there is a universe where our fictional Star Trek is the real universe, and Khan just failed at taking over the world.

Another theory that is closely tied to this one is that no one can in fact time travel but instead they just enter parallel realities that have their 'current' time in our past or future, the only difference in these realities being the time at which the universe formed. So, by this logic, Spock and Nero did not Time Travel at all, but instead only entered a parallel reality which was already different from the 'prime' reality in some manner, obviously something small that did not affect the major events a great deal, and that had its current time at a point in the prime reality's past. To explain the branch of the federation which monitors the time line and protects it from changes by having them in another separate reality (the only difference being when the universe was created) that has its current in the future, that they monitor the progression of the prime universe not their own and ensure that the prime universe unfolds just as theirs has. This then creates an infinite loop where one reality monitors the next and so on. I however do not subscribe to this theory, but rather the one I will explain next.

A fundamental rule of physics and time travel as we know it now is that one cannot travel to the past, but only into the future. This is because traveling to the past will ALWAYS result in a change in the time line, even if it is a tiny irrelevant one. One can travel into the future because doing so will in no way create a paradox, however, after doing so one would never be able to return to their own time. To go around this problem, one would, instead of traveling to the past of their universe, travel to the past of another universe, and instead of traveling to the future of their universe, travel to the future of another so that they may return without creating any paradoxes. This also means that alteration of one's own timeline is impossible, and that only a factor from another reality may do so. However, there is a rule attached to this theory, once a force from a reality has affected another reality, no factor from another reality can impact that reality at a point in time before that reality has impacted another, in essence, that reality become 'locked'.
However, this rule does not mean that if a reality would ever impact another that travel to that reality would be impossible because this theory also states that all realities are also on a single 'master timeline' and that the 'current times' of all realities are in sync. To better explain this, the 'master timeline' is the timeline of all events which have impacted and that will impact one reality that originated from another. This makes time travel to another reality at a point in its history before it impacts another reality possible as long as the travel to that reality occurs before that reality impacts another on the master timeline.

here is a picture to help explain: http://i44.tinypic.com/2psgjup.jpg

[LockeFP]

So if I read all of this correctly: if I were a resident of the 25th century and traveled back to the year 2230 and then found my way to the exact spot that Nero entered the timeline again, I wouldn't see anything?

BTW - that taco analysis wasn't exactly right.

If it were true, all of the time-travel episodes and movies would result in alternate "tacos". But each time the ships returned, we (as independent outside observers) could see that nothing had changed in that timeline. Given, none of the events which previous time-travel scenarios involved were as wide-spread or dramatic as the things that occurred in STXI. However, I do believe there would have been some sort of reprecussions upwards of the instance.

If the taco theory is correct, not even the timeline of STO is the Prime one. The Prime one was left behind when Archer first started flirting with time-travel.

[OrabIbo]

It will just be a tool for developers to tell a story. I doubt they will do such things as allow the players to alter the entire game and outcome for all players. Imagine how chaotic it would be if 100 players did a timeline mission and various amounts of them failed and/or suceeded? The "Prime" timeline as you guys call it would be changing all the time.
Confusing the **** out of ppl.

And it's mainly because of this, while the game timeline changes, you the player does not. So you will remember what the old timeline was about. Making sense of it all figuring out what is going on at the "De facto" moment in time would make it difficult to playe the game.

On the other hand...

With Cryptic mentioning instancing being the primary form of playing the game. It could very well be made so that the environment around you will instance into the timeline you are playing. So you would experiencing an alternate timeline in (non public) places.

When you group up ppl can experience the same quest, and will appear to time travel with you. But if they are "Not" on the same timeline you are playing, they can only help you, and the timeline will not change for them unless they do the same quest and make the same descisions you did.

NPC's will appear for you based on these timeline missions, and while other ppl that may be with or close to you might see them, they won't be able to interact with them. And they may possibly may look different to them than the player playing the alternate timeline!

Yeah, it's all confusing as hell :) But we are all Star Trek fans, we understand! :D and it can be done with instancing, where a typical MMO would find this chaotic.

[indigowhale345]

If the taco theory is correct, not even the timeline of STO is the Prime one. The Prime one was left behind when Archer first started flirting with time-travel.

You would be incorrect. You see what you're missing is that the Hobus/Nero/Spock event was unique among Star Trek time travel. Normally time travelers stay in their own taco which is why there is so much worry about the temporal prime directive stuff, but instead, Nero and Spock went to an alternate universe, not just back in time. They left their taco which never happens in standard time travel. Normal time travel all happens in the same taco.

So now, even if prime Spock would be able to go forward in time to his "present" time, he could get to the right time, but he's in the wrong taco. Vulcan would still be gone, and Romulus presumably would not have been destroyed by the Hobus event. And there would also be two Spocks, the same age, one from the prime taco, the other from the alternate one. Meanwhile in the other universe, everyone still thinks he's dead, despite him being back in the right time, and a monument is possibly being built on Vulcan or something.

[LockeFP]

Nero and Spock went to an alternate universe

Where exactly are you getting this information?

[Azurian]

Look People.

Prime Universe = Everything in Star Trek we know and love from TOS all the way to Enterprise and the Novels.

Mirror Universe = Federation are the Bad guys, fighting everyone.

Alternate Universe = Nero and Spock wasn't just time travelled, they were thrown into a parallel universe and changed the events of Star Trek.

So in the Prime Universe after Spock and Nero disappeared, they are gone. They were sucked in a Black Hole and never heard from again. So going back in time isn't going to fix it, because there is nothing to fix. But to fix Nero screwing up that timeline, you have to not only go back in time, but also find a singularity to cross into another universe and stop him and prevent the Kelvin's encounter with Nero.

Which isn't going to happen because Abrams is making sequels. :p

Where exactly are you getting this information?

How about Star Trek 11? It was mentioned a couple of times. Along with Abrams, and everyone else involved with it. :rolleyes:

[Warston]

OP the 2 time lines aren't quite like a river. I'm sure you looked at the official timeline picture and it does kind of display it this way but it is only shown that way to show how it split at that point. When nero and spock traveled back they only bridged the gap between realities for an instant. If you look at my sig it (somewhat sadly and poorly) shows the 2 universes running parallel and then there was a gap where nero and spock traveled back and then once they were there the rift was sealed.

In short if you travel back in time in one time line you stay in that time line. Only when you use a method to switch to another reality (such as a singularity created by red matter) will you actually go there. So as long as we are dealing with a more stable form of time travel in game we won't be seeing the other reality. Course unless cryptic decides we should go take a stroll over there, for which i am all for. =)

[the_reaper87]

All this talk of time travel makes my head hurt. I'll think I'll just stick to my Police Box.

You have to remember that Nero and Spock Classic didn't travel to an alternative reality, they created one. Nero's arrival changed events so drastically that a new reality was born.


When minor events occur the universe can smooth of the bumps and fix everything it's self, but it wasn't able to do that this time so an off shoot was created.


My poor head.

[cmhDK]

I am glad that cryptic put out the information on the time effects of the
latest movie and how it effects (if any) the game.

Bravo...

Now you will *if you want to stay canon" have to observe a maximum
limit on time travel or players would get caught by the alternate timeline.

players could go back into time on the Prime timeline upto a few seconds where
Nero arrived..np, he is on the alternate time..your safe.

IF

you go back before he arrived..your toast and would logically be forced
to travel the alternate timeline...unless someone in the prime timeline could grab you back.

that sortta happened in Next Gen, those thousands of timelines didn't go to the prime,
they were pulled there from the prime.


So in short, if player time travel before Nero, they are going to need an anchor of somekind
or else they get lost in the alternate time

a minor but important plot device.

not really... you just have to avoid going into the same rift they do, they are the only ones being sent to and alt timeline

[Roy_Vash]

All this talk of time travel makes my head hurt. I'll think I'll just stick to my Police Box.

You have to remember that Nero and Spock Classic didn't travel to an alternative reality, they created one. Nero's arrival changed events so drastically that a new reality was born.


When minor events occur the universe can smooth of the bumps and fix everything it's self, but it wasn't able to do that this time so an off shoot was created.


My poor head.

Point one is true with one caveat. The alternate/parallel universe was identical to the prime universe until Nero's arrival. One of the mind experiment rules about parallel universes is that if it can be imagined it qualifies as a parallel universe. This is infinity we're dealing with. There are no limitations on the number of universes that already exist and no limit on the number that may be created from each of them.

For simplicity's sake we will assume that the parallel universe was created as soon as Nero was observed and a new universe differentiated. (Whether the events prior to Nero's arrival and observation are technically a part of the prime universe AND the Nero universe is a separate question.)

Point two is not true, but is of little consequence because we observe our own universes from within and not in comparison to others. The bumps aren't fixed, they create parallel universes. Some universes exist that may be as little divergent from our own as a two books on a shelf in an elementary school in Alaska filed backward.