Klingon-Federation War

[walker555]

From the searches I made this had not been talked about, so here goes.

In my opinion (keep in mind I favor the Federation over the Klingons by A LOT), a war between the Federation and the Klingons would destroy the Federation. Now, before you jump on me let me cite my source, TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise". In the alternate timeline that was shown in that episode the Federation was being destroyed by the Klingon Empire, and had no hope of victory. Now, I do understand that the game will take place quite a while after that episode, but still, the Federation just is not fit to fight a war, after all, look at what the dominion war did to them. Also, the Klingons just have a larger force to draw on, especially with how selective the Federation is about its members. In the time it takes the Federation to bring in one planet, the Empire has annexed 100. Now, before I end this, I also understand the the Klingons and Federation are not quite at war during the game (at least not at launch), but if the devs do make it an all out war, they need to add something to the Federation to balance out their MASSIVE disadvantage, because, otherwise, there is no way that they could win (don't forget, I do favor the Federation).

[wrussandrews]

I think the Klingons would make major inroads at first, but these gains would slow as the Federation ramped into a wartime economy.

There are a lot of factors here; supply lines would limit the Klingon advance, for example. The longer such lines are the easier they are to cut.

[cjfs]

I concur with your assessment. Never bring a phaser to a bat'leth fight.

[Manx]

The Klingons took a massive beating during the Dominion war as well. The only reason they reactivated their alliance with the Federation was because the Dominion troops moving into Cardassian territory were giving them a spanking.

Also, due to the Breen's energy dampening weapon, the Klingons were fighting the war alone for a time; they suffered huge losses.

[Revenaught]

Please don't forget the Federation had already fought the Klingons to a standstill once or there would have been no neutral zone in the original series.

[wrussandrews]

My impression of the Klingons is that they go to war first and then try to figure out how to win.

That is the surest way to loose.

Sun Tzu anyone?

[47Wasps]

Well,look at it this way.
On these forums,their are a few balance of power issues.The average player seems to be more interested in playing as a Starfleet officer than a Klingon Warrior.Their are countless Federation fleets,and only a few Klingon ones. That may change at release,but it is possible that their will be more Federation players than Klingon,which means the Empire is going to need everyone of their advantages to win in a conflict.

[spiderdude1]

I concur with your assessment. Never bring a phaser to a bat'leth fight.

Isnt it the other way around? don't bring a bat'leth to a phaser fight?

[WoodyDotNet]

More is not always better. Duiring the Cold War the Soviets boasted more troops, more tanks, more planes and even more nuclear weapons. How'd that work out?

[RookActual]

I think the Klingons would make major inroads at first, but these gains would slow as the Federation ramped into a wartime economy.

There are a lot of factors here; supply lines would limit the Klingon advance, for example. The longer such lines are the easier they are to cut.

Agreed. The Federation may not be prepared for warfare, but the Federation is more about resourcefulness and improvisation. In the end, it would come down to that clever engineer, or wise strategist, or cunning diplomat who would find the way to curb the Klingons. If the Empire could so easily crush the Federation, it would have already been done. I would say it is more likely the Federation could conquer the Empire, but that would be a contradiction of their principles. If the Federation thought in that fashion, they would not be the Federation we know, and therefore would not likely be as resourceful, either.

[RookActual]

More is not always better. Duiring the Cold War the Soviets boasted more troops, more tanks, more planes and even more nuclear weapons. How'd that work out?

The best part was our political strategy was designed to encourage this, as it was known their economy would eventually collapse under the strain. If volume is such a powerful strategy, Afghanistan would still have sickles and hammers waving in the wind over it's soil.

[Traveller]

I think that neither side would win. The war would go on forever IMO.
The Klingons have sufferd loads. The Brief war with the Federation,Cardassia,and when they took the brunt of the figting against the Dominion when the Breen joined in. There econemyis in ruins they are pretty much bankrupt. The Federation just doesnt have the stomach for a war IMO either they wouldnt take the steps nessecary to win on their own. It was only because of Martok and Sisko that they finished the war.It would be brutal at first then it would just settle down to fighting over certain planets over and over.
My 2cents.

[wrussandrews]

Well,look at it this way.
On these forums,their are a few balance of power issues.The average player seems to be more interested in playing as a Starfleet officer than a Klingon Warrior.Their are countless Federation fleets,and only a few Klingon ones. That may change at release,but it is possible that their will be more Federation players than Klingon,which means the Empire is going to need everyone of their advantages to win in a conflict.

I suspect this will be the case. I think Cryptic will have a hard time balancing power for the smaller number of Klingons.

Isnt it the other way around? don't bring a bat'leth to a phaser fight?

Colonel Colt made all men equal...

More is not always better. Duiring the Cold War the Soviets boasted more troops, more tanks, more planes and even more nuclear weapons. How'd that work out?

They could not shovel money into the fire fast enough. In many ways war is an economic game. Playing an economic war against the Federation is going to be tough.

[cjfs]

Isnt it the other way around? don't bring a bat'leth to a phaser fight?

You obviously don't know how to use a bat'leth properly.

[VengefulTick]

I concur with your assessment. Never bring a phaser to a bat'leth fight.

ROFL!

oh...and WTMF w/the "this message is too short" stuff?!

[Urantia]

From the searches I made this had not been talked about, so here goes.

In my opinion (keep in mind I favor the Federation over the Klingons by A LOT), a war between the Federation and the Klingons would destroy the Federation. Now, before you jump on me let me cite my source, TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise". In the alternate timeline that was shown in that episode the Federation was being destroyed by the Klingon Empire, and had no hope of victory. Now, I do understand that the game will take place quite a while after that episode, but still, the Federation just is not fit to fight a war, after all, look at what the dominion war did to them. Also, the Klingons just have a larger force to draw on, especially with how selective the Federation is about its members. In the time it takes the Federation to bring in one planet, the Empire has annexed 100. Now, before I end this, I also understand the the Klingons and Federation are not quite at war during the game (at least not at launch), but if the devs do make it an all out war, they need to add something to the Federation to balance out their MASSIVE disadvantage, because, otherwise, there is no way that they could win (don't forget, I do favor the Federation).

Using an alternate timeline does nothing more than show it is possible for the Federation to lose. However, as you know from that timeline (as as other have eluded to) Starfleet was not focused on exploration, and as such most likely did not encounter the Borg, open the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant etc. Not having had those adverse interactions may have contributed to a lack of technology....and so on.

Of course that is all speculation on my part (at least some of it). In short, you cannot use an alternate timeline/reality as a proof for what will happen in another. It merely can show a possibility of events. Personally I do not think the Klingons would know what hit them if they made the mistake of again underestimating Starfleet. As far as the game goes I supose we will have to wait and see whom creates the better illusion...Starfleet or KDF. I say "illusion" because obviously it is just a game...so I suppose it will come down to what popular perception is as to whom is kicking ass etc. Either way I doubt I will concur with whatever popular opinion is anyways.

[RookActual]

Using an alternate timeline does nothing more than show it is possible for the Federation to lose. However, as you know from that timeline (as as other have eluded to) Starfleet was not focused on exploration, and as such most likely did not encounter the Borg, open the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant etc. Not having had those adverse interactions may have contributed to a lack of technology....and so on.

Of course that is all speculation on my part (at least some of it). In short, you cannot use an alternate timeline/reality as a proof for what will happen in another. It merely can show a possibility of events. Personally I do not think the Klingons would know what hit them if they made the mistake of again underestimating Starfleet. As far as the game goes I supose we will have to wait and see whom creates the better illusion...Starfleet or KDF. I say "illusion" because obviously it is just a game...so I suppose it will come down to what popular perception is as to whom is kicking ass etc. Either way I doubt I will concur with whatever popular opinion is anyways.

This may startle you to no end, but I absolutely agree.

[thefreshjedi]

Using an alternate timeline does nothing more than show it is possible for the Federation to lose. However, as you know from that timeline (as as other have eluded to) Starfleet was not focused on exploration, and as such most likely did not encounter the Borg, open the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant etc. Not having had those adverse interactions may have contributed to a lack of technology....and so on.

Of course that is all speculation on my part (at least some of it). In short, you cannot use an alternate timeline/reality as a proof for what will happen in another. It merely can show a possibility of events. Personally I do not think the Klingons would know what hit them if they made the mistake of again underestimating Starfleet. As far as the game goes I supose we will have to wait and see whom creates the better illusion...Starfleet or KDF. I say "illusion" because obviously it is just a game...so I suppose it will come down to what popular perception is as to whom is kicking ass etc. Either way I doubt I will concur with whatever popular opinion is anyways.

I like this assessment as well. No-one knows exactly what would or could have happened "if things were different". I think that if StarFleet had a second chance to fine-hone their remarkable technology for all-out war, then you would see something completely different with regard to warfare. StarFleet has always taken the balanced approach to fleet construction, looking more toward exploration, science, cartography, understanding and diplomacy. Therefore their ships were designed to suit those needs. If StarFleet was to redesign their fleet for war...I shudder to think just how deadly effective their ships could be in battle, taking into account their superior technology.

-avery

[47Wasps]

Using an alternate timeline does nothing more than show it is possible for the Federation to lose. However, as you know from that timeline (as as other have eluded to) Starfleet was not focused on exploration, and as such most likely did not encounter the Borg, open the wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant etc. Not having had those adverse interactions may have contributed to a lack of technology....and so on.

Of course that is all speculation on my part (at least some of it). In short, you cannot use an alternate timeline/reality as a proof for what will happen in another. It merely can show a possibility of events. Personally I do not think the Klingons would know what hit them if they made the mistake of again underestimating Starfleet. As far as the game goes I supose we will have to wait and see whom creates the better illusion...Starfleet or KDF. I say "illusion" because obviously it is just a game...so I suppose it will come down to what popular perception is as to whom is kicking ass etc. Either way I doubt I will concur with whatever popular opinion is anyways.

I also find myself agreeing with that.
The rule of Alternate Universes in Star Trek goes like this: for every thing that could happen,their is an timeline in which it occurs.
So,under that logic,their is a timeline in which Starfleet was at war with the Klingons...
and they cleaned their chronometers.

For every timeline the Klingons win,their is another one in which the Federation wins.

[RookActual]

I like this assessment as well. No-one knows exactly what would or could have happened "if things were different". I think that if StarFleet had a second chance to fine-hone their remarkable technology for all-out war, then you would see something completely different with regard to warfare. StarFleet has always taken the balanced approach to fleet construction, looking more toward exploration, science, cartography, understanding and diplomacy. Therefore their ships were designed to suit those needs. If StarFleet was to redesign their fleet for war...I shudder to think just how deadly effective their ships could be in battle, taking into account their superior technology.

-avery

Form Follows Function, though. In this case, the technology being the form, and the principles of the Federation being their function. Starfleet's diverse and superior technology is based upon the success of their principles throughout explored space. If their principles became conquest as opposed to common defense, I believe this technology would decay and atrophy and progress would stifle. The Federation wins wars without relying on the superiority of firepower alone, and it wins most wars by preventing them altogether. Sure, it's a bit idealistic, but it is the virtue of the Federation.

[thefreshjedi]

Form Follows Function, though. In this case, the technology being the form, and the principles of the Federation being their function. Starfleet's diverse and superior technology is based upon the success of their principles throughout explored space. If their principles became conquest as opposed to common defense, I believe this technology would decay and atrophy and progress would stifle. The Federation wins wars without relying on the superiority of firepower alone, and it wins most wars by preventing them altogether. Sure, it's a bit idealistic, but it is the virtue of the Federation.

True. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? In other words, if they weren't so adept at acquiring technology through diplomacy, then they may not have that technology to begin with. Very altruistic.

However, that's why I've always likened them to the Borg, although not in practice, but in principal they are on the same spectrum line. One assimilates, the other negotiates.

-avery

[Thibor]

From the most recent Supplemental Log:

1) All right. [I change my approach, seeing that he won’t budge on that subject] Are you at liberty to talk about your recent encounter with Nero? And the destruction of the Klingon fleet?

I do not wish to talk about those events. I believe Ambassador Picard has already spoken extensively about what happened. I have nothing to add to his accounts.


2) There's an ongoing battle between the Klingons and the Gorn

Granted 20yrs worth of timeline to go but, I think Cryptic will do a pretty good job of sewing it all up into a neat little package with minimal leaks.

And, for the OP, your citing of a past episode and the state of things then is exactly one of the reasons for why they chose to jump 30yrs past the end of Nemesis. They can tailor the story to fit their needs.

Keep in mind that "canon" for our own world circa 520-ish years ago was that the world was flat.
Last I knew, people weren't falling over an edge of it. :D

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying they should toss canon in the waste basket and say the preferred melee weapons of choice for the Feds 30yrs post Nemesis is the lightsaber or some other crap. But politcal positioning, strengths and weaknesses (including numbers) of various faction fleets, advent of newer technologies, worlds destroyed or discovered, new uses for anomalies in space, etc. are all fair game.

Those who cling too tightly to the past lack the vision to grow into the future.

[thefreshjedi]

...
Those who cling too tightly to the past lack the vision to grow into the future.

True, but those that forget the lessons of the past are also doomed to repeat them.

Balance is key. Everything in moderation in my opinion.

-avery

[BIGDUKE6]

Well,look at it this way.
On these forums,their are a few balance of power issues.The average player seems to be more interested in playing as a Starfleet officer than a Klingon Warrior.Their are countless Federation fleets,and only a few Klingon ones. That may change at release,but it is possible that their will be more Federation players than Klingon,which means the Empire is going to need everyone of their advantages to win in a conflict.

I have seen many times in past mmo's that the outnumbered faction was a tighter cadre of players. For example the horde on my WoW server Elune were very hardcore pvp players and spanked the alliance regularly despite their lack of numbers.

[RookActual]

However, that's why I've always likened them to the Borg, although not in practice, but in principal they are on the same spectrum line. One assimilates, the other negotiates.

-avery

I agree. I think, really, the Federation assimilates technology as the Borg do. However, the Borg are not only unpleasant about it, they're colorless about it. The Federation assimilates cultures just as well as it does technology, but at a much slower rate than the Borg. Yet the Borg face resistance, which, clearly, is not as entirely futile as they sell it to be. Whenever you face an obstacle, or resistance, eventually your prgress will be stifled. The Borg, who assimilate much more agressively, do not benefit from cultural diversity, and their reliance is placed solely on technology to resolve conflict(which to the Borg may as well be cultural distinction anyways). The mission of the Borg, itself, is inflexible and unprincipled, so it would be difficult for the Borg to adapt on a more strategic scale, it would seem.

[walker555]

I know all that has been said is true but (allow me to play the devil's advocate), think about how stretched out the Federation is with all of its humanitarian (whats the proper term for that in ST?) missions. For instance, if the Klingon empire were to attack in 2389, the Federation would not simply stop helping the Romulans pick up the pieces. Now I know this is a bad example for many reasons, chiefly because it would never happen, but I think it shows my point. The Federation is extremely well intentioned, to much so for their own good. Also, we must not forget the argument of cloaking.

Remember, I am a Federation player.

[RookActual]

I know all that has been said is true but (allow me to play the devil's advocate), think about how stretched out the Federation is with all of its humanitarian (whats the proper term for that in ST?) missions. For instance, if the Klingon empire were to attack in 2389, the Federation would not simply stop helping the Romulans pick up the pieces. Now I know this is a bad example for many reasons, chiefly because it would never happen, but I think it shows my point. The Federation is extremely well intentioned, to much so for their own good. Also, we must not forget the argument of cloaking.

Remember, I am a Federation player.

I don't think the resources the Federation has dedicated to Romulus would leave them defenseless, or able to recuperate from an initial attack. I'm confident that, if intelligence indicated a large scale invasion(and those are pretty hard to conceal), the Federation would take that into consideration, as part of being a humanitarian is living to provide aid another day.

[PicardoManeuver]

More is not always better. Duiring the Cold War the Soviets boasted more troops, more tanks, more planes and even more nuclear weapons. How'd that work out?

Yet it can be effective. Why did the Allies win WWII? The Germans had better individual weapons, tanks, planes, etc. But for every Tiger tank they had, The US had 10 Shermans. The Allies won by mass-producing the Axis to death.

[WikiUltimate]

you all seem to have skiped Federation-Kilingon Affaris 101 at starfleet...

The Federation was quickly expanding, and its territory began to approach that of the Empire. Disputes over ownership of various star systems arose, particularly over worlds such as Donatu V, Sherman's Planet, the Archanis sector, and Organia. Although numerous skirmishes were fought between the Federation Starfleet and Klingon forces during this time, both sides refrained from committing to open warfare.


Kor, commander of the Klingon forces occupying Organia in 2267.However, in 2267 negotiations between the two sides broke down, and the Federation officially declared war against the Empire. The Klingons launched an immediate offensive, seizing several planets including the strategically important Organia. Unexpectedly, the Klingon-Federation War was brought to a sudden conclusion just days after it had begun when the Organians, a race of massively powerful noncorporeal beings, intervened and forced both sides to end hostilities. The Treaty of Organia was then imposed, establishing a neutral zone separating the two powers and instituting a procedure, to be overseen by the Organians, through which planets along the border could be claimed and settled by both sides. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", "The Trouble with Tribbles")

From: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_history#Klingon-Federation_Cold_war

see, if it were not for the Organia's there would be no federation...

So, this is how the story ends.. Federation fight a war against the Klingons, the federation gets trashed... become Klingon lap dogs.

[Skud]

i think it was the grand nagus who made a poll a month or so back and there was a roughly equal number of feds and klingons who wanted to pvp and lots of feds who wanted to pve

[walker555]

Yet it can be effective. Why did the Allies win WWII? The Germans had better individual weapons, tanks, planes, etc. But for every Tiger tank they had, The US had 10 Shermans. The Allies won by mass-producing the Axis to death.

You forgot about how we beat the Japanese, the mass production of the cheap wooden-deck aircraft carriers. By the way, AWSOME example!

[brenatevi]

Something people are forgetting about is leadership. Who is leading the two nations at war? Are they adaptable? Do they have a clear vision of what they are trying to accomplish? Going back to WWII, Germany mainly failed because Hitler refused to adapt, or retreat. Fast forward to the Vietnam War, and it could be argued America lost that war because they had no clear vision of what they were trying to accomplish there.

And then there's intelligence gathering. Not only did the Allies "mass-produce" the Axis to death, they also knew almost everything the Axis was thinking. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/enigma_01.shtml)


you all seem to have skiped Federation-Kilingon Affaris 101 at starfleet...

From: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Klingon_history#Klingon-Federation_Cold_war

see, if it were not for the Organia's there would be no federation...

So, this is how the story ends.. Federation fight a war against the Klingons, the federation gets trashed... become Klingon lap dogs.

And that is a very poor example. By your logic, the United States should have been overran by the Japanese in WW2. Or how about Germany's Blitzkrieg? A few planets overran does not make for a lapdog.

There are a lot of factors in war that determine the "winners and losers," and sometimes what looks like a win in the short term ends up being a nightmare in the long term. So we'll see how it'll go. :)

[DarkOrion69]

Given the new focus on modular construction over ship size indicated newer Starfleet ships, I would say the Federation has been gearing up for war long before 2399. For the larger exploration class vessels, quick and dirty modular refits would be likley After the success of smaller war-focused vessels such as the Sovereign and the USS Defiant in the Dominion War the watchwords are cheaper, faster, better. Ramping up production of smaller vessels would be far easier if war breaks out. In short, Starfleet would re-engineer and adapt their technologies accordingly to Klingon aggression.

The Klingons are far more likely to attack en-masse with any available ships than spend time at the drawing board designing new vessels. Their Captains would rather be in glorious battle than sitting in space dock getting refitted endlessly. Klingon ships in the series and later movies did not seem to change/innovate as much as we saw the Galaxy Class change/innovate into the Sovereign Class. If firing while cloaking is the pinnacle of new Klingon vessels, then all Starfleet needs are computers quick enough to lock weapons on the co-ordinates of the origin point of the incoming fire, and AI smart enough to predict where that vessel is most likely to be positioned based on it's trajectory while firing.

In short, I think the Klingons would win early on, but the adaptability of Starfleet would win the day. Oh dear, Starfleet seems to have learned something form the Borg about adaptation hasn't it? :)

[DarkOrion69]

If I were a clever Klingon commander, I would just slingshot around a star and set course for 200 years in the future. I would infiltrate and capture a powerful Federation vessel and pilot it back to my time, and with a single vessel bring the Federation to its knees. I would declare myself the New Klingon Emperor and conquer my own people gloriously in my fantastic flagship. The beautiful part is that I am in my initial reality, because I only created a different time line 200 years in my future. I will be long dead before those events come to pass, and because I altered events by destroying the Federation in my time line, no one from that time could come back to stop me. :)

[WikiUltimate]

Something people are forgetting about is leadership. Who is leading the two nations at war? Are they adaptable? Do they have a clear vision of what they are trying to accomplish? Going back to WWII, Germany mainly failed because Hitler refused to adapt, or retreat. Fast forward to the Vietnam War, and it could be argued America lost that war because they had no clear vision of what they were trying to accomplish there.

And then there's intelligence gathering. Not only did the Allies "mass-produce" the Axis to death, they also knew almost everything the Axis was thinking. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/enigma_01.shtml)




And that is a very poor example. By your logic, the United States should have been overran by the Japanese in WW2. Or how about Germany's Blitzkrieg? A few planets overran does not make for a lapdog.

There are a lot of factors in war that determine the "winners and losers," and sometimes what looks like a win in the short term ends up being a nightmare in the long term. So we'll see how it'll go. :)

well, if i never need some one who cant take a joke, i'll be sure to give you a shout...

[lvjayman]

Honestly blind luck and chance are also huge factors that no side can control. I remember reading in a history book that just days before D-day some of the plans were actually lost out a window. While they were eventually recovered imagine what would have happened if a german spy had managed to get hands on them.

I think this is a question that could go to either side, since we don't have enough information. We don't know the size of the Federation or Klingon empire in number of worlds. I mean if you have a thousand planets and lose 10, well ok that hurts but no big deal. If you have 20 and lose 10, well your losing the war. Has it ever been mentioned in canon the total number of planets of either the Federation or Empire?

And leadership would be key. Look at the success of the Confederate army under Lee during the first parts of the US civil war, mostly because he outclassed the generals he was facing. Plus he had a very capable staff and commanders. Just the loss of Stonewall Jackson was a blow that hurt him badly later in the war. Or the effect of someone like Patton in WWII or Rommel. And again, blind fate could give or take away in this regard, depending on enemy action, bad health, or just an accident like slipping in the tub.

[Interdictor]

Now, before you jump on me let me cite my source, TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise". In the alternate timeline that was shown in that episode the Federation was being destroyed by the Klingon Empire, and had no hope of victory.
Yes - in that timeline. But you forget that in that timeline the Enterprise likely did not meet Q, thus did not encounter the Borg, nor did the Federation fight the Dominion War. Before this, the Federation fought only border skirmishes with it's neighbours (Kllingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Tholians, etc).

The Borg and Dominion, being threats to the very existence of the Federation, gave Starfleet a new appreciation for the tactical side of things - a "kick in the pants" if you will - and you have new generations of Starships with decidedly more tactical bents (Defiants, Akiras, Soverigns, etc..), as well as new tactical tech (Pulse Phaser Cannons, Ablative Armor, Regenerative Shielding, Quantum Torpedoes, etc).

Add in the fact that Starfleet's Exploratory ships are often the match for their neighbours dedicated warships as is, and I don't think the Klingons will find the "modern" Starfleet to be such easy pickings.

[Dr._Sskarno]

Most of the posts seem to argue over who would win. In my opinion a moot point. IF the Devs ever push it to ALL OUT WAR, it would CEASE to be STAR TREK and be that crappy other franchise.

Sorry about the caps but trying to emphasize the point in text isn't easy.

[Dr._Sskarno]

Just to clarify my last post, I am NOT saying there shouldn't be any battles just that a galaxy-spanning war involving the major powers was RARE in the Trek universe. Yes there are local conflicts between planets, and occasional "incursions" like the Borg at Wolf 359 and always a background "tension" is there to make things interesting but an all out war shouldn't be happening with any frequency. In the Original Series episode "Balance of Terror" it had been 140-200 years since war between the UFP and Romulans. This is one thing that makes Star Trek unique. Yes i know DS9 had the Dominion War but that is a direction that show's writers went in that didn't sit well with a lot of fans (and I LIKE DS9 by the way).

[Greenomen]

From the searches I made this had not been talked about, so here goes.

In my opinion (keep in mind I favor the Federation over the Klingons by A LOT), a war between the Federation and the Klingons would destroy the Federation.

I agree. Yes, we would destroy the Federation.

[ransomwk]

I don't think a war between the Federation and the Klingons even can end with a victory for either side. The Klingons would never give up, they would just keep fighting till there were no more Klingons. The Federation might if they were getting hammered bad enough, but the Federation is huge, there's no way the Klingons would be able to police the whole area, they'd be very spread out and very vulnerable to guerrilla warfare.

Also we're talking about two powers for whom the Dominion war is still in living memory. Both sides have very recent experience fighting an opponent stronger than either of them, their ships reflect this. Both sides have been returning to normal, but they are returning from a state of major warfare, and still retain many aspects or a war fleet. As such, both the Federation and the Klingon empire would be fully geared up and ready to go by 2409.

I think a war between them would look like a long boxing match, eventually the two sides would be too tired to anything more than make a few feeble swings and hope the other guy passes out first.

Who would ultimately "win" is up for debate, but one thing is indisputable, both sides would be devastated for generations.

[Ora]

The rule of Alternate Universes in Star Trek goes like this: for every thing that could happen,their is an timeline in which it occurs.
.

I defy you to find an alternate universe in which they think Donald Trumps hair looks cool

[Arsinoe]

A klingon - Federation war = Mutually assured destruction.

Besides those 2 are not the only powers. The Romulans are weakened by the destruction of Romulus but don't you think they might feel like' mmnn, what if the Klingons defeat the Federation who are helping us rebuild, only a weakened Romulan empire and the Klingons, better help the Federation, i would if i where them.

The Cardassians, same story, weakened, trying to rebuild, small defensive force but we all know their not afraid of a war nor big casualties, Besides its not because most of their military is dismantled they can't go conscripting people on masse again.

The Ferengi and the Federation are pretty close, no profit in war so its likely they will not join but then again with Rom leading them and relations between the Federation and the Ferengi better then ever who really knows?

The Klingons do love to conquor, its a reasonable assumption people who feel intimidated or even threatend would flock to the Federation side and with their humanitarian efforts the last couple of years i imagine their pretty popular.

The Klingons would cause alot of damage to the Federation of this i have no doubt, but in the end they will be overrun and since klingons don't surrender (as far as i recal) they will fight till their won't be a Klingon left, because if the Federation does not whipe them out (doubtfull since they don't approve of genocide) you can be pretty sure the others like the Romulans or Cardassians won't jump at the chance. And then i leave out the ones i really dunno what their agenda is like the Tholians, Breen, Tzenkethi and so on

Well this little speculation post seems to have gone on longer then i thought it would.

Anyway thanks for reading. :D

[RookActual]

First off, I think everyone is forgetting that wars are fought with 'reasonable' objectives in mind and not even the Klingons are brazen enough to establish such an objective as outright conquest of the Federation. You have to consider the objectives, and the price that's willing to be paid to achieve them. How much will the Empire bid to take control of this well defended resource? How much will the Federation expend in it's defense? If the defense fails, will the Federation assume the price of that strategic asset or resource is too high to reclaim?

Wars are only fought until one side realizes it can't succeed in accomplishing it's goals or objectives.

Very few wars are fought until one side or the other is completely annihilated, essentially, in the Trek universe, this would be an exclusive trait to the Borg.

[JMD10222]

A klingon - Federation war = Mutually assured destruction.

Besides those 2 are not the only powers. The Romulans are weakened by the destruction of Romulus but don't you think they might feel like' mmnn, what if the Klingons defeat the Federation who are helping us rebuild, only a weakened Romulan empire and the Klingons, better help the Federation, i would if i where them.

The Cardassians, same story, weakened, trying to rebuild, small defensive force but we all know their not afraid of a war nor big casualties, Besides its not because most of their military is dismantled they can't go conscripting people on masse again.

The Ferengi and the Federation are pretty close, no profit in war so its likely they will not join but then again with Rom leading them and relations between the Federation and the Ferengi better then ever who really knows?

The Klingons do love to conquor, its a reasonable assumption people who feel intimidated or even threatend would flock to the Federation side and with their humanitarian efforts the last couple of years i imagine their pretty popular.

The Klingons would cause alot of damage to the Federation of this i have no doubt, but in the end they will be overrun and since klingons don't surrender (as far as i recal) they will fight till their won't be a Klingon left, because if the Federation does not whipe them out (doubtfull since they don't approve of genocide) you can be pretty sure the others like the Romulans or Cardassians won't jump at the chance. And then i leave out the ones i really dunno what their agenda is like the Tholians, Breen, Tzenkethi and so on

Well this little speculation post seems to have gone on longer then i thought it would.

Anyway thanks for reading. :D


You make some very good points. The Romulans HATE the Klingons and vise verse, so it is a logical assumption they would help the Federation as they know they are next on the Klingons list. But I do believe the Klingons would attack the Romulans first and count on the Federation not jumping into the war, but trying to negotiate a peace between them. The Federations disdain for war would play into the Klingons hands nicely there. Klingons are a warrior race, but not stupid.

[lvjayman]

Its also worthwhile to point out that in the setting of STO the Klilngons have already started warring with the Gorn, so for them at least, it would be a 2 front conflict dividing there resources and ships.

[Admiral-Darren-Wright]

Isnt it the other way around? don't bring a bat'leth to a phaser fight?

lol owned ! love your comment lol

[cjfs]

lol owned ! love your comment lol

You obviously don't know how to use a bat'leth properly.

Silly Starfleet types making me repeat myself.

Admirals that say 'lol' are the reason we need open pvp.

[lvjayman]

One thing I keep seeing is everyones belief that technology only prospers in peace, giving the Federation a huge advantage, but looking at human history it seems to be the opposite. Look at the developments that came out of WWII. Radar, Jet aircraft, ,sonar, and the rocket technology that took us into space. I'm not saying that all technology comes from war, but war doesn't stifle technology either. Whats that quote about adversity breeding ingenuity or something like that. I mean the Klingons equal the Federation in technology, or are at least a very close aproximation, and there culture is ruled by warrior beliefs. Or the Borg, who only advance thru conquest and absorbtion. Look at the more powerful ships that came out of Starfleet due to the Borg, like the Defiant, Sovreign, Akira etc..... And if anything the shows have constantly shown that the governments of the alpha and beta quadrants have always had comparable levels of tech. There always seems to be the assumption of Federation tech being superior, but I don't think I've every seen this proven in the shows or movies. Heck, in most ST shows the UFP ships get hit once and its like "captain we just lost weapons and shields are at negative 10 percent" (just being dramatic :) )
I'm not saying the Federation would lose a war, but I don't think any victory would be due to technology, unless they get that lucky break, like tha manhattan project.

[WikiUltimate]

One thing I keep seeing is everyones belief that technology only prospers in peace, giving the Federation a huge advantage, but looking at human history it seems to be the opposite. Look at the developments that came out of WWII. Radar, Jet aircraft, ,sonar, and the rocket technology that took us into space. I'm not saying that all technology comes from war, but war doesn't stifle technology either. Whats that quote about adversity breeding ingenuity or something like that. I mean the Klingons equal the Federation in technology, or are at least a very close aproximation, and there culture is ruled by warrior beliefs. Or the Borg, who only advance thru conquest and absorbtion. Look at the more powerful ships that came out of Starfleet due to the Borg, like the Defiant, Sovreign, Akira etc..... And if anything the shows have constantly shown that the governments of the alpha and beta quadrants have always had comparable levels of tech. There always seems to be the assumption of Federation tech being superior, but I don't think I've every seen this proven in the shows or movies. Heck, in most ST shows the UFP ships get hit once and its like "captain we just lost weapons and shields are at negative 10 percent" (just being dramatic :) )
I'm not saying the Federation would lose a war, but I don't think any victory would be due to technology, unless they get that lucky break, like tha manhattan project.

not just technology, the greatest medical advances around the world have come about due to war.

[Traveller]

the akira was built before the borg. was made for the Fed-Cardassian war.
but see wht u mean.

[erriku]

I believe that both sides would have a solid chance at winning. I doubt very much that either party would pound the other to annihilation though. If the Federation was winning, they would allow the Klingons to save face and offer negotiations and give the Klingons something that would allow them to keep their honor without an official surrender. If the Klingons were winning, they would allow the Federation to continue to operate UNDER the hand of the Klingon Empire since the Federation is far too large to absorb all at once. I personally see the Federation taking it though.

[RookActual]

the akira was built before the borg. was made for the Fed-Cardassian war.
but see wht u mean.

Cite your source for that, because I'm fairly certain you're very wrong.

[renderpix]

From the searches I made this had not been talked about, so here goes.

In my opinion (keep in mind I favor the Federation over the Klingons by A LOT), a war between the Federation and the Klingons would destroy the Federation. Now, before you jump on me let me cite my source, TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise". In the alternate timeline that was shown in that episode the Federation was being destroyed by the Klingon Empire, and had no hope of victory. Now, I do understand that the game will take place quite a while after that episode, but still, the Federation just is not fit to fight a war, after all, look at what the dominion war did to them. Also, the Klingons just have a larger force to draw on, especially with how selective the Federation is about its members. In the time it takes the Federation to bring in one planet, the Empire has annexed 100. Now, before I end this, I also understand the the Klingons and Federation are not quite at war during the game (at least not at launch), but if the devs do make it an all out war, they need to add something to the Federation to balance out their MASSIVE disadvantage, because, otherwise, there is no way that they could win (don't forget, I do favor the Federation).

In the Movie and series perspective the Federation not ready for war?

Annexing star systems require more KDF ressources to maintain instead of being used for a war effort. Remember they were annexed not joined willing.

But this is in the Star Trek series and movie content not in the content of STO which will depend on the number of members that join the Federation or KDF. Personally I think that all out war is far off in the STO universe, Most likely will not occur until the intoduction of other factions. Remember on release it will be that the two will have bad relations and even of war is introduced most likely Cryptic will introduce the Borg that will join both sides and also the is the old threat who knows what that is and what that will cause in effect.

But if there is a war I think I will enjoy that to the fullest :D

[BlehAngel]

I don't hope they build up the tension between the 2 factions only later to be fighting along side each other to destroy a third faction. Totally put me off at wow. Running along side the alliance in the same town, brrrrrrr.

[The-Raver]

Please don't forget the Federation had already fought the Klingons to a standstill once or there would have been no neutral zone in the original series.

Yes but back then the Federation was more geared to war. In the 24th & 25th C you could argue its more geared to piece.

I feel the Klingons would have the edge in a war over time but I dont think it would be as large as some have professed.

[busbydaniel]

I must say that I disagree with the original poster and I will use episode sources to support my point. I personally believe that the Federation is considerably more powerful than the Klingon Empire at this stage and that the Klingons wouldnt have much of a chance in a war against the Federation.

Why I think this:

ST: Deep Space Nine (cannot remember the episode name)
Kurn visits DS9 and wants to be killed by Worf for his dishonour and they get into a debate about the war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Kurn says Gowron was wrong and that the Federation isnt weak, Worf than agrees and says the Empire musnt enter into a war that they cannot win.

This would suggest that the Federation is considerably more powerful and that the empire doesnt have the strength to take on the Federation in a prolonged conflict. This is also supported when Sisko later says "The Klingons are throwing everything they have at us" And yet Starfleet is still holding them off even after a Borg invasion.

ST: Deep Space Nine (Again cannot remember the episode)
Section 31 agent Sloan is talking to Bashir on a Federation starship orbiting Romulus. Bashir argues with Sloan about his tactics with regards to gathering intelligence on the Romulans. Sloan replies that 3 things will happen when the war is over. 1- Cardassia will be occupied 2- Kilingons will spend the next decade recovering from this war. 3- This leaves two powers to gain supremacy, The Federation and the Romulans.

Point 2 seems to suggest that the Klingons have suffered considerably during the war most likely militarily and economically. If they are not in a position to challenge for dominance but the Federation is it suggests that they came off worse.

Finally the war in the alternate timeline took place when Starfleets view was solely towards science and exploration. Due to the Dominion War and the Borg invasion Starfleet has moved towards a more defensive posture, this is proven by developments of the Defiant and Prometheus class starships which are more combat orientated than other classes.

Just my thoughts...

[renderpix]

I must say that I disagree with the original poster and I will use episode sources to support my point. I personally believe that the Federation is considerably more powerful than the Klingon Empire at this stage and that the Klingons wouldnt have much of a chance in a war against the Federation.

Why I think this:

ST: Deep Space Nine (cannot remember the episode name)
Kurn visits DS9 and wants to be killed by Worf for his dishonour and they get into a debate about the war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Kurn says Gowron was wrong and that the Federation isnt weak, Worf than agrees and says the Empire musnt enter into a war that they cannot win.

This would suggest that the Federation is considerably more powerful and that the empire doesnt have the strength to take on the Federation in a prolonged conflict. This is also supported when Sisko later says "The Klingons are throwing everything they have at us" And yet Starfleet is still holding them off even after a Borg invasion.

ST: Deep Space Nine (Again cannot remember the episode)
Section 31 agent Sloan is talking to Bashir on a Federation starship orbiting Romulus. Bashir argues with Sloan about his tactics with regards to gathering intelligence on the Romulans. Sloan replies that 3 things will happen when the war is over. 1- Cardassia will be occupied 2- Kilingons will spend the next decade recovering from this war. 3- This leaves two powers to gain supremacy, The Federation and the Romulans.

Point 2 seems to suggest that the Klingons have suffered considerably during the war most likely militarily and economically. If they are not in a position to challenge for dominance but the Federation is it suggests that they came off worse.

Finally the war in the alternate timeline took place when Starfleets view was solely towards science and exploration. Due to the Dominion War and the Borg invasion Starfleet has moved towards a more defensive posture, this is proven by developments of the Defiant and Prometheus class starships which are more combat orientated than other classes.

Just my thoughts...

My friend I disagree with you on this and almost agree with the OP. I will refer to your episode Stardates

Episode “Sons of Mogh” concerning Kurn stardate 49556.2 year 2372
Episode "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" concerning Bashir an Sloan around stardate 52300 year 2375
A decade for the Klingon Empire to recover has long past and the Romulan home world has been destroyed leaving the Federation as the power to gain supremacy but failed to keep the Klingon Empire in check.

The Klingon Empire’s condition in the year 2409 around 35 years later would have no relevance to the episodes referred to. Unless they were ravaged by another major war, and this did not happen. :rolleyes:

The best reference to what conditions the factions are in is “The Path to 2409”. And the Klingon Empire does not seem to be in any economic troubles. Though there always hints of political trouble between the ruling families involved in the council. This is just a part of the Klingon way of things the strongest or the most willing to kill rules. :D

The major difference between the Federation and Klingon Empire by Star Trek reference is that the Klingon are battle hardened and almost always willing and prepared to go to war to meet their needs. I don’t think Defiant and Prometheus will not go unmatched by newer or retro fitted ships in the KDF arsenal along with seasoned captians to command them. For a Defiant class designed almost like a KDF vessel I would attempt combat with a B'Rel and for the Prometheus at least a K'Vort. But I have not seen the SotL specs on any of these ships, that would help judge a better match. You can tell I like BoPs

But in a game-play sense faction populations will be the deciding factor along with the thought that most players that are in the spirit of PvP will be Klingon factioned. And it may take skill to beat better tech ships with the main stay of the KDF brute force style ship design. So the likelihood there will a weak Klingons Empire against the Federation is not likely. I believe it will be a toss-up.

In fair opposition to your thoughts ;) I think that the war will go well, QuPLA!

[Condemnation]

I think we are all forgetting here that it's not just the Klingons. You will also be able to play Orion and Gorn...in the KDF if i understand correctly. This means that the Klingons are getting not only an economic boost from their annexed worlds, but they are also getting their technology and their people. The Klingons hold no monopoly on conquest or warlike behavior.

I would submit that the Klingons are building their own version of a federation. They are not stupid and they are assimilating other cultures to their own benefit. The difference is that Quonos will likely always be in charge and you won't be seeing any Gorn on the high council for a few hundred years.

The Gorn are or were at the level of the federation technologicaly in the 2300s, and theres no reason to assume they have lagged behind. In fact their defensive technologies alone were far superior to the Federations.

The Orions bring not only numbers to the empire, but they also bring a long and ancient history of warfare and high technology. Their ships are very similar to the empires in the 2200s down to the swept wing bird of prey type craft they flew. They are only pirates and traders because frankly their ideology doesn't mesh with that of the Federation. Never has. It does seem to fit with the Klingons however.

So this isn't just Federation vs Klingon. This is Federation vs The Empire which would be a great deal different than just the Federation vs a single species. My guess is that you will see much more advanced Klingon ships than have been shown before. Not to mention without the Federation whispering of peace in their ears, the Klingons will hopefully have gone back to their old ways, which means creating more ships, and an increased weapons technology budget.

[erriku]

I will single handedly end all life for the Empire!!!

[ecsakron]

what if you're a klingon-human hybrid? Would you be allowed to start a 3rd faction that could fight them both? Could you recruit other species to your cause and go off into deep space and look for super planetoids that have secret passages that lead to the 10 dimension? Also if a race was highly allergic to a human food, say cow milk for instance, could it be used as a biogenic weapon?

[renderpix]

what if you're a klingon-human hybrid? Would you be allowed to start a 3rd faction that could fight them both? Could you recruit other species to your cause and go off into deep space and look for super planetoids that have secret passages that lead to the 10 dimension? Also if a race was highly allergic to a human food, say cow milk for instance, could it be used as a biogenic weapon?

I really suggest the FAQ :D

With the character creator you could create something that appears to be a hybrid and have them in either faction that exists.

Only Cryptic can create factions.

The other stuff, only thing I could say is.... errr ah :eek:

[SovWell]

We Shall Be Victorious! :p

[SenatorPardek]

The Federation of the Enterprise-C is very, very different from the Federation of the post-Borg invasion and post Dominion-War era. While the Klingons are no push over, neither is the feds. It would probably be a long, ******, drawn-out conflict.