An Old Crafters Observations and Beliefs

[Silverspar]

You can find this in my blog here (http://www.guildportal.com/Blog.aspx?Blog=606583&Action=ViewSingleEntry&BlogEntry=109533) if you wish to leave a comment or stumble it or something ;) but I figure I would post it here so the devs can see it and maybe a few other players as well.


It's been a few days since I last wrote a blog, but after seeing it mentioned a few times I thought I would chime in on something that I haven't mentioned for a while; Crafting. The last time I mentioned crafting was when the invetion system hit for City of Heroes. An interesting experiment, and probably still one of the better attempts in this post era of uber items and leet gear. But, there is still one underlying problem when it concerns MMOs and crafting in general, crafters do not want to be forced to level or fight critters for anything. Crafters want to do just one thing, craft. This is where the picture at the top of this article comes into play.

Crafters have existed since the granddaddy, Ultima Online, hit the scene. In fact, once everyone got past the desire to try and be the heroic knight that saves the world, many people began to realize that crafters we almost essential to life in the game. It wasn't a mandatory essential, but as things progressed you soon discovered it made things a hell of a lot easier if you know a crafter or two. And crafting wasn't somethign where you had to be a warrior either. You could go your entire game life in Ultima Online without ever picking up a sword and attacking a single critter. Sadly, this aspect of crafting has been woefully lost ever since as crafting has either been relegated to a game within the game (and a shoddy one at that; Warhammer Online) or so abysmally tact on, it's worthless to be anything other than one type of crafter period (ala World of Warcraft). The only current MMO that makes crafting essential to everything is Eve Online, but they essentially did a complete 180 and went too far in the other direction in that game. Of course, I am sure that someone will point out Horizons, or whatever the hell the game is called now, but everyone's a crafter in that game so it's essentially worthless.

So, now we are pushing into the space of Star Trek Online where the crafter in me see's the greatest potential for the crafting community to appear since the early days of Ultima Online but this requires elegant levels of finesse and ability to discern balance between phat lewt and actually things to build and construct to create a thriving, interesting crafter community. So, I am going to try and describe exactly what crafters would like, as a player interested in crafting myself, and what a crafter hopes to not see;



Crafters just want to craft, they don't want to adventure, explore, level, fight or do anything beyond anything that requires them to craft. That's all crafters ever want to do. They don't want to be forced to level, they don't want to do anything that requires them ot fight a bunch of critters to get stuff they want to use to craft with. In fact many crafters will be content with either buying resources off a market, or even buying blueprints from other players.
Crafters want to be useful to the community as a whole as well. They want their goods to be bought at a regular pace, and they want to have purpose to their life just like any other role or class in a game. They want people to come talk to them about repairs, or talk to them about replacing their damaged goods, or even making upgraded versions.
Crafters don't want their role relegated to the idiot role, just like any other role in the game doesn't. Sorry to say this, but in MMOs these days, the crafter is pretty much the idiot role, in that anyone can do it and do it well. Crafters want their work to mean something just like the tanks or the DPS or the support person. Being able to make stuff better is one of those rewards, slapping their name on the goods they make is as well, with the maker's mark. They want the ability to get recognition for what they create just like someone who is a damn good tank get's recognition for the job they do.
Crafters don't want to spend endless ours toiling at a single node or location to gather resources. This is one of those things that MMOs seemingly can't ever decide the middle ground for. I will let in a little secret for the STO devs. As bad as it cna be, Pirates of the Burning Sea has actually gotten it right as far as gathering resources versus time spent. Ultima Online was also good, though not as decent as Pirates. Eve Online would be the extreme type of resource gathering you want to avoid as best you can, as any sane person doesn't want to stare at a laser miner for hours on end.


So there you have it, a small breakdown of what crafters would really like when it comes to crafting. It's not an easy thing to do, trust me, developers have seemingly been working on it for 11 years without figuring out what people who want to craft really want, but it isn't as difficult as it sounds. Essentially, crafters just want to craft, with the option to level if need be, crafters don't want ot fight mobs or NPCs for stuff, crafters don't want ludicrous resource gathering, and crafters want their trade to mean something without it becoming the diot skill like crafting is in other MMOs.

[Sarevok]

Nice speech!

I wonder how many like you are out there. I myself tend to play a "support person" as you called it.

[babanathie]

I enjoyed crafting and can agree with most of the points here. That may be first; agreeing with Silverspar.:eek:

[Sumdian]

Hate crafting and i wont do it unless i really really REALLY need to i have 3 80s in wow ones a skinner ones miner and the other one herbs and i hated every second of lvling the skills up

[Dr._Sskarno]

Hate crafting and i wont do it unless i really really REALLY need to i have 3 80s in wow ones a skinner ones miner and the other one herbs and i hated every second of lvling the skills up

So dont do it. The OP never said everyone had to do it, in fact the opposite.


I agree with most of of what Silverspar said. I'm just not sure how crafting relates to the STAR TREK universe, but thats what they pay the devs' salaries for and I hope they find a way that fits.

[Silverspar]

So dont do it. The OP never said everyone had to do it, in fact the opposite.


I agree with most of of what Silverspar said. I'm just not sure how crafting relates to the STAR TREK universe, but thats what they pay the devs' salaries for and I hope they find a way that fits.

Actually, Star Trek is possibly the most rich environment for a crafter. Research and Development, research alien devices or current ones to try and improve upon them creating newer items and gear.

[DanSeale]

Actually, Star Trek is possibly the most rich environment for a crafter. Research and Development, research alien devices or current ones to try and improve upon them creating newer items and gear.

I agree ...

For me ... I enjoy certain aspects of crafting and being able to work in a support manner to what ever fleet I hook up with.

The flip side of that is that I also enjoy other aspects as well. PvP is one of them ... as well as PvE areas.

Trying to find that balance is kind of tricky ... but I'm smart enough to know that not everyone will play exactly the same way I do.

Developing a game that will allow for MULTIPLE means of player growth and fulfilment is the real trick. I hope that there is ample opportunity for those who enjoy crafting as well.

[dyvimtorm]

Hi,

Enjoyed the post. I don't know how many "pure" crafters there are out there, I would hazard a guess that most MMO crafters are people who like to do both adventuring and crafting. I fall into this category, as I enjoy it at times, and then enjoy getting out into the world. That being said, I do agree that crafting should not be a grind, and should be important to the game world.

On that note, I have to bring up what I think is essential to crafter importance. Resource and item sinks. Games that allow for permanent items inevitably lead to crafters being reduced in usefulness with time. If things aren't permanent, then crafters continue to be important. I'd like to see an economy that really reflects inclusion of crafting throughout the game's life.

As for crafting not being repetitive or grindy, these are tough tasks to accomplish, the best way to do it is variety, but that requires dev time. Likely the crafting system will start simple and become more complex with time. Hopefully becoming more relevant with each iteration.

[ComradeWolfie]

Yeah crafting is a nice addition, not essential, devs probably have more important things to do.

[Silverspar]

Yes, I agree Pavel. Item decay and degradation and eventual destruction will be a necesarry evil if the developers actually want a thriving economy. Starships should never get destroyed, but the phasers, warp cores and all that other stuff should get to a point where they eventually need replacing. This goes in hand with teh statement that crafters want to feel useful. They will want to help to maintain a ships warp core or phasers or warp engines for a while, but eventually, a person might turn to that dedicated crafter either for a new part or upgrades even, and those players might in turn offer blue prints or rare new items for the crafters to research and develop or make better. It creates a nice circle, one that is absent in current MMOs.

And I know many are loathe to admit it, but even Star Trek has an economy. And in an MMO you really can't get away from an economy.

[ComradeWolfie]

The player economy is a very important and esseintal part of the game, and needs to be managed and properly implimented, if anyone has every played Knight Online they will have seen the rampant inflation, last time I played it I had to grind to get my level up, and then grind to afford my new kit, purely because the price had increased such a rediculous amount.

[Suiko]

Good post, I look forward to some good resource gathering and crafting in STO.

[JDiesel17]

I was surprised to see no mention of SWG crafting. I thought the crafting in that game (pre-NGE) was awesome, and the resource gathering too. Now I know things were a bit broken the first months when the 99% composite armor was out there, but the implementation of the crafting was spot on.

You could name your item whatever you wanted, so you could have a brand name on all your stuff. Every item could be experimented on and enhanced with additional subcomponents so you could have an E-11 with very bland stats that cost you 500 credits for everyday grinding and you could have a souped up version that cost 1,000,000 credits that you only use for elite bounty hunting missions.

While I did not do much crafting in SWG i did do a lot of resource gathering. I think this was inplemented correctly too. On the ground you had to survey for resources and then you could take a sample to check its stats. If the deposit was good you could set down a harvester and come back in a day or two to empty it out. And every week or two the resources shifted, so you had to stay on top of it, and the best places couldn't just be camped. In space you had to fly to an asteroid, "shoot" off chunks, and then collect them, and every so often you would get attacked by pirates (nothing too difficult to deal with)... and it was fun!

I would hope to see as much of this as possible in STO.

[Loekii]

Actually, Star Trek is possibly the most rich environment for a crafter. Research and Development, research alien devices or current ones to try and improve upon them creating newer items and gear.

The problem is the amount of focus on that aspect. To do it correctly, it basically would need to be its own different MMO -- ie Star Trek R&D MMO. Some people would want to control entire fleets (like SFB), which while it fits into the Star Trek Canon, clashes with the STO design.

As a vet crafter as well (I think alot of us are vet MMORPGers), I can agree with some of your desires, but I can also see how they clash with STO.

Some games lend themselves more towards a 'crafting' system, than others. STO is not really one of them. Crafting in STO, is more about being 'Scotty or Jordie' -- solving problems, realigning systems, getting a little more out of the Warp Engines, etc, rather than producing items for sale in your 'store front', or supplying Equipment to other Starship Captains (they have their own 'Scotty').

We are not 'player crews', where a 'crafter' = Engineer. We are Captains, with our own engineer pets and our own engineer skill -- ideally used for OUR ships, not other players ships.

So the idea of being a 'crafter' selling/Supplying other players with items, really does not fit the design of STO. If STO was designed differently (ie Player Crews), then it would make sense, but the idea of a tee-shirt salesman, or a 'mobile plumber' doesn't fit STO.

[Tribbler]

Here is an old link to another thing about crafting.

http://http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=7854

Crafting needs to be setup where their is an interdependency, but in future updates and chapter releases, don't make the hard work that you have already done, mean nothing and worthless.

[Loekii]

Here is an old link to another thing about crafting.

http://http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=7854

Crafting needs to be setup where their is an interdependency, but in future updates and chapter releases, don't make the hard work that you have already done, mean nothing and worthless.

The problem with interdependency is the various power issues, where one side becomes more dependent upon the other, or where some areas become 'farmed' and artificially inflated/abused.

I enjoy crafting....for myself. I enjoy the process of obtaining the materials, improving my skills, and eventually making a nice finished product for myself.

I don't enjoy mass producing things for 'sale', nor am I driven to get 'rich'. I am driven to craft, simply buy the process and the utility for my toon.

I think it is important to not narrowly define crafting as a 'money making' machine, that requires interdependency, as well as customer dependency.

For myself, I would rather see Crafting more like a Class progression for yourself, where you work up your toon to be able to do certain abilities at later levels -- like how you work up any other class (rogue, mage, priest, etc) -- rather than simply being a Mule to make a profit with. I actually enjoyed my EQ armorsmith and eventually making him a suit of Racial chain. I wasn't like 'Cool I am going to be rich', but rather more like 'that was a long journey but this is my trophy to show off'.

[Tribbler]

The problem with interdependency is the various power issues, where one side becomes more dependent upon the other, or where some areas become 'farmed' and artificially inflated/abused.

I enjoy crafting....for myself. I enjoy the process of obtaining the materials, improving my skills, and eventually making a nice finished product for myself.

I don't enjoy mass producing things for 'sale', nor am I driven to get 'rich'. I am driven to craft, simply buy the process and the utility for my toon.

I think it is important to not narrowly define crafting as a 'money making' machine, that requires interdependency, as well as customer dependency.

For myself, I would rather see Crafting more like a Class progression for yourself, where you work up your toon to be able to do certain abilities at later levels -- like how you work up any other class (rogue, mage, priest, etc) -- rather than simply being a Mule to make a profit with. I actually enjoyed my EQ armorsmith and eventually making him a suit of Racial chain. I wasn't like 'Cool I am going to be rich', but rather more like 'that was a long journey but this is my trophy to show off'.



Why not both, and you can choose the type of crafting you will do but leave the option up for crafters who want to do more?

Not all at launch, but later as an update to add versatility.

[Surban]

The best crafting system (IMHO) that I have seen so far was in the Saga of Ryzom. You could use different kinds of materials to make the same thing and get different results. One kind of material might add DPS while another would buff you stats.

I don't play MMO to be the richest player with virtual money. But I do like to craft to make descent gear for myself and my friends.

Time will tell, but I hope we don't end up with a cookie cutter crafting system like WoW.

[oleum]

The problem with interdependency is the various power issues, where one side becomes more dependent upon the other, or where some areas become 'farmed' and artificially inflated/abused.

I enjoy crafting....for myself. I enjoy the process of obtaining the materials, improving my skills, and eventually making a nice finished product for myself.

I don't enjoy mass producing things for 'sale', nor am I driven to get 'rich'. I am driven to craft, simply buy the process and the utility for my toon.

I think it is important to not narrowly define crafting as a 'money making' machine, that requires interdependency, as well as customer dependency.

For myself, I would rather see Crafting more like a Class progression for yourself, where you work up your toon to be able to do certain abilities at later levels -- like how you work up any other class (rogue, mage, priest, etc) -- rather than simply being a Mule to make a profit with. I actually enjoyed my EQ armorsmith and eventually making him a suit of Racial chain. I wasn't like 'Cool I am going to be rich', but rather more like 'that was a long journey but this is my trophy to show off'.



I dunno why and I apologise because its probably me but something about the way you phrase things always makes me disagree. I think there are many who craft because they enjoy the challenge to do the get rich thing. I like to be able to do this to a degree to help out with what my guild needs not for the sake of in game wealth itself but for the opportunities it offers to my teammates.

I agree with the having something to show for it thing. I doubt anyone who played FFXI would disagree that the game was a grind. But catching your 10 000th moat carp and turning it in for your Lu Shang's Rod had to be an extreme high point. And you have that rod to equip from there on, a "badge" that anyone who fished as their craft would be able to see and recognise your efforts.

To the OP I think its wrong to assume that crafters don't want to do anything else in general. Most probably do it in addition to their other gaming activity. I am notoriouisly slow at levelling up because I spend perhaps 75% of my time crafting and organising things. However I agree strongly that the other activities (main game) should not be a requirtement. LOTRO had a type of level gating to crafting that I hated. There were some item scrolls that a crafter used to improve critical item % - significantly - the best of these required lvl 45 which meant that there couldn't be effective low level crafters.

So my points

Crafting shouldnt be dependent on normal gameplay achievements.
The economic side and the enjoyment people get working it shouldn't be underestimated

and one more while I recall. I won't re re re post it but If you search my name and crafting you'll see a way you can do STO craft which doesnt require currency and is fully in keeping with canon.

I hope Cyptic do get crafting right, its a great opportunity for them in this game.

[Flatfingers]

Nice blog post, Silverspar. Constructive, positive, and gets people thinking -- excellent!

I find that there are some parts to your model I agree with, and some I'm not too sure about.

I think you're probably right that gamers who really enjoy making things are probably less interested than other gamers in destructive content -- i.e., combat. I also agree that crafters don't want "their" content to be something that anyone with lots of free time and a high tolerance for mindless button-mashing can master.

But I'm not certain that "real crafters" (whoever they are) don't like exploration, because I see the heart of crafting as being about exploration. To me, making things is a way to discover the principles by which putting things together creates new kinds of things.

Even that's not completely right, though, because a lot of people today seem to have decided (from the games they've personally played, I suppose) that "crafting" must somehow include sales. For them, crafting may not be about simulated physical destruction, but it is about destroying competitors in an economic game.

As it happens, I can call both of these activities crafting by suggesting that there are actually two kinds of things that people want to be able to do as productive gameplay: "creative crafting" and "sales crafting." (Think of these as "R&D" and "manufacturing," respectively, and that'll be pretty close to what I'm describing.)

I've written about this idea at my own blog (Creative Crafting vs. Sales Crafting (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2005/06/creative-crafting-vs-sales-crafting.html) and Crafting for Explorers (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/05/crafting-for-explorers.html)), but here's the short version:

Sales crafting is a competitive game; it's about manufacturing things to sell them in order to compete in (and attempt to dominate) the server economy. This kind of crafter can be ruthlessly clever at finding the most efficient way to make things because minimizing costs directly affects their bottom line. But the "making things" part of the crafting process is best understood to be a means to an end in a zero-sum environment -- what really counts at the end of the day is who's taken the most money.

Creative crafting is a cooperative game; it's about discovering how the construction system works in order to understand crafting as a system. In this mode, the pleasure of crafting comes from understanding how it works, from perceiving the inner workings of the system, either alone or with the help of others. Creative crafters enjoy being surprised -- they don't mind when a process doesn't reliably produce the product they expected (as long as it's not just random) because that means there's something more to be understood about the system. For creative crafters, the making of new kinds of things is not a means to some other end; it is the goal in and of itself.

I see these two styles of crafting not as "opposed" to each other, but simply as expressions of different tastes in gameplay. In fact, I believe a truly enjoyable crafting system in a MMORPG would include both of these approaches to the making of things. The creative crafters would do the R&D that discovers new kinds of product-creating processes because they enjoy it and are good at it, even though this activity would be designed (deliberately) to offer no direct, tangible, collectible, zero-sum rewards. And the processes that come from R&D would be made available through some delivery mechanism to sales crafters, who would be able to trade and use these processes to manufacture goods for sale as part of an economic competition game.

I think combining these two styles of crafting into one unified system integrated into a complete MMORPG could not only work, I'm pretty sure that -- if properly designed, implemented, and polished -- it could be more satisfying to more gamers than crafting is said to have been in any other game so far, including SWG.

That's just a theory, of course. :) I look forward to reading other theories about who these "crafter" people are and what they really want in a game.

--Flatfingers

[Loekii]

Why not both, and you can choose the type of crafting you will do but leave the option up for crafters who want to do more?

Not all at launch, but later as an update to add versatility.

I would be all for it, if it were not for the impacts. I prefer to have options, but when those options cross over and impact, it becomes an issue. It is like competing in a marathon where some players are able to take taxi's during the race.

When you create a Profit based system, you change the dynamics of the game.

The focus shifts from 'Adventure' to 'Profit'.

Why quest, when you can simply buy. Buying is easy - which is why people will spend real dollars on in-game gold, because it is easier than questing/raiding.

[Silverspar]

Yea, crafters will want to explore hence the ability to set up collectors or what not at various nodes. The problem then becomes on how to maintain such colelctiona nd balance out the output versus the input. So, using the model created by PotBS that actually does create the best answer.

Basically for each unit of material you want to gather, you have to spend so much for it. Credits, latinum or whatever. This expenditure, of course, represents the time used to gather, the labor, machinery, mainetance and everything else you can think of. The perfect money sink (something that is hard to control in an MMO). You would basically set a number of units to be gathered, the time expenditure and cost is put up though each unit is one tick which could represent 15 minutes worth of work or something, and of course limit the amount of time a collector can spend at a specific unit producing area thus to keep the flow of a specific material in check.

Collectors of course would have a maintenance fee, which would also be a sink, and the further out in deeper space areas, and especially in uncontrolled, hostile space territories, the cost of running these collectors can become increasingly higher, thus it would be possible for a soloist crafter, but probably be more economical on time and money just buying it off market or from fleets with the funds to handle such things.

Thus it starts creating the crafting circle which is a very nice model in and of itself; Gatherer -> Crafter - > Consumer. The Consumer has to pay the crafter, which the crafter has to pay the gatherer which the gatherer has to pay maintenance on on gathering, so it's a decent money sink.

In some cases the gatherer can be your basic miner or even someone who finds blueprints or exotic items to have researched and the like.

But again, this system would only work if necesarry items ahve a decay value in them (not starships) but not something that feels painful.

[Tribbler]

I would be all for it, if it were not for the impacts. I prefer to have options, but when those options cross over and impact, it becomes an issue. It is like competing in a marathon where some players are able to take taxi's during the race.

When you create a Profit based system, you change the dynamics of the game.

The focus shifts from 'Adventure' to 'Profit'.

Why quest, when you can simply buy. Buying is easy - which is why people will spend real dollars on in-game gold, because it is easier than questing/raiding.


In my experience, crafters help you acheive your objective. Foods for that extra buff, torches for the caverns, pots to brew drinks, etc.

Some games allow you to make dyes to color your robes for RP'ing reasons, Some you can make special armor so that radiation does not affect you while you reach for the "goblet of eternal glory" etc.

No, the crafted items should not be superior to the quest items, but they should be level based. I would expect that a junior grade captain cannot get the "Diamond Edged Bat'leth" only a senior grade officer can get it, and a senior crafter makes it, but it is not as powerful as the "Dilithium Edged Bat'leth" which is only dropped in a quest.

[Silverspar]

In my experience, crafters help you acheive your objective. Foods for that extra buff, torches for the caverns, pots to brew drinks, etc.

Some games allow you to make dyes to color your robes for RP'ing reasons, Some you can make special armor so that radiation does not affect you while you reach for the "goblet of eternal glory" etc.

No, the crafted items should not be superior to the quest items, but they should be level based. I would expect that a junior grade captain cannot get the "Diamond Edged Bat'leth" only a senior grade officer can get it, and a senior crafter makes it, but it is not as powerful as the "Dilithium Edged Bat'leth" which is only dropped in a quest.

I dunno why the crafted items should not be equal to or superior to the quest items. After all, someone had to make those items, so it goes within reason that someone should be able to make those items again. I'm hoping this doesn't become D&D in space and if there are uber items, I hope they are limited use. Last thing I would want to see are Iconian death rays strapped on starships.

[icepocket]

It is almost like you need a whole class based on crafting. Instead on getting experience from combat and exploring, you get experience from making items and gathering resources. Their could even be quests devoted to just crafting.

Personally I kind of like the idea. It adds another level to the game. Say you need this resource that in a area thats not safe. Well you could hire some people for escort duty..

[ngille]

I see a lot of folks in the thread attempting to "shoebox" players into one category or another. Careful about doing that.

I agree with a lot of what the OP said with the exception of crafters not interested in combat. I enjoy crafting and resource gathering, but I also like blowing stuff up.

Just depends on what mood I'm in, I may spend a week doing absolutely nothing but crafting, after that, maybe back to the balance. Just depends what I'm in the mood for.

SWG had it right for crafting except for the fact that if you a crafter, that's pretty much all you were.

[seancorycooper]

good post..I'll probably have my combat captain and a science alt..just for r&d..good crafting systems deepen the immersion...I WANT to have a system where peeps take about different crafters, and argue over who's best..so the crafting system should be deep enough so that, as the OP says, they never have to lift a weapon if they don't want to. and players should be educated on how important crafters are to keep their starships running in tip top shape..

[Tribbler]

I dunno why the crafted items should not be equal to or superior to the quest items. After all, someone had to make those items, so it goes within reason that someone should be able to make those items again. I'm hoping this doesn't become D&D in space and if there are uber items, I hope they are limited use. Last thing I would want to see are Iconian death rays strapped on starships.

Well, I think the reason being, as stated earlier, that it should not be based on economy. Only rich players will be able to afford the leet items. Good crafters will load up the trade monitors with these leet items, yes and will drive the price down but still the game will end up being economy based.

Rather, the quests and the experience of the Captains should be the driving ambition.

Crafters should support but not be the ultimate gear maker. On another note, SWG flip flopped around and ruined the crafters by swapping what was the best "quested vs trader made". I am no longer playing it because of their flip flopping not just traders but every class they look at.

[Gardein]

If I am a Federation Starfleet captain I would expect to receive ship refits and improvement based on my ship's service record , mission needs, and fleet upgrades.. I DO NOT want to shop for an improved warp core from a player vendor in order to be competetive for either PVE or PVP missions.

[JDiesel17]

Crafters should support but not be the ultimate gear maker. On another note, SWG flip flopped around and ruined the crafters by swapping what was the best "quested vs trader made". I am no longer playing it because of their flip flopping not just traders but every class they look at.

I think crafted items should rival if not surpass looted items IF you incorporate needed loot drops into those top tier crafted items. A special component or whatever that can be looted from a tough enemy. However you have to make those components freely tradeable (no soulbinding) so crafters can purchase them.

I agree with the SWG comment. My other main complaint with SWG loot was that the "best" stuff was really just eye candy in the end. I had a full suit of mando (minus the biceps) that cost millions of credits and a ton of time to make and it was really no better than a 100k suit of composite. I had a lava crystal that was sweet to see, but was no better than any other freely available color crystal.

[Silverspar]

If I am a Federation Starfleet captain I would expect to receive ship refits and improvement based on my ship's service record , mission needs, and fleet upgrades.. I DO NOT want to shop for an improved warp core from a player vendor in order to be competetive for either PVE or PVP missions.

Well, you might be a Federation officer but your engineer still has to make upgrades and improvements to your ship. Needless to say, the Federation doesn't have everything you may want or need at their disposal.

[Tribbler]

I think crafted items should rival if not surpass looted items IF you incorporate needed loot drops into those top tier crafted items. A special component or whatever that can be looted from a tough enemy. However you have to make those components freely tradeable (no soulbinding) so crafters can purchase them.

I agree with the SWG comment. My other main complaint with SWG loot was that the "best" stuff was really just eye candy in the end. I had a full suit of mando (minus the biceps) that cost millions of credits and a ton of time to make and it was really no better than a 100k suit of composite. I had a lava crystal that was sweet to see, but was no better than any other freely available color crystal.

Ahh good, so you see that whichever they choose to go with, whether it is looted leet gear, or crafted leet gear, it needs to remain that whats best from the beginning needs to remain the best always. NO FLIP FLOPPING! They can tweak the stats but it needs to remain the best. If they have crafters.

There is an option,
Klingons can have item best as looted since they are not economy based play but warrior based play.

The Federation can have crafted best loot since they are an economy based society.

The start up screen and player choices should explain which you pick will result in your desired type of play but in the end, the Klingon best should be close or equal to Federation best.

Nice package?

[Silverspar]

Ahh good, so you see that whichever they choose to go with, whether it is looted leet gear, or crafted leet gear, it needs to remain that whats best from the beginning needs to remain the best always. NO FLIP FLOPPING! They can tweak the stats but it needs to remain the best. If they have crafters.

There is an option,
Klingons can have item best as looted since they are not economy based play but warrior based play.

The Federation can have crafted best loot since they are an economy based society.

The start up screen and player choices should explain which you pick will result in your desired type of play but in the end, the Klingon best should be close or equal to Federation best.

Nice package?

Oddly enough, Klingons are based on samurai, at least as far as TNG and beyond. Samurai sought perfection in everything they did, including crafting.

[Tribbler]

Oddly enough, Klingons are based on samurai, at least as far as TNG and beyond. Samurai sought perfection in everything they did, including crafting.

I mean as far as getting the prize weapon after a fight instead of getting the prized weapon on a barter system.

[Silverspar]

I mean as far as getting the prize weapon after a fight instead of getting the prized weapon on a barter system.

Being a warrior caste still would not negate the fact crafters would exist, even in the Klingon Empire. In fact, a warrior that was also a weaponsmith would be a high prize to have on your side indeed.

[Tribbler]

Being a warrior caste still would not negate the fact crafters would exist, even in the Klingon Empire. In fact, a warrior that was also a weaponsmith would be a high prize to have on your side indeed.

That being said, the Klingons are very good at making swords, but no-one can re-create the "Sword of Kahless", that ultimate prize will not be made by a weaponsmith, and should be the best the klingons can find so it will probably be a looted item from a mob boss in a difficult instance.

[Silverspar]

That being said, the Klingons are very good at making swords, but no-one can re-create the "Sword of Kahless", that ultimate prize will not be made by a weaponsmith, and should be the best the klingons can find so it will probably be a looted item from a mob boss in a difficult instance.

The only thing the Sword of Kahless would have with it, is prestige, nothing else. If we start slapping magic modifiers on stuff jsut because it has a name then the game goes from sci-fi to fantasy. And the Sword of Kahless, for all intents and purposes, is just a standard Bat'Leth since all Bat'Leth are modelled after the Sword of Kahless to begin with.

[Tribbler]

The only thing the Sword of Kahless would have with it, is prestige, nothing else. If we start slapping magic modifiers on stuff jsut because it has a name then the game goes from sci-fi to fantasy. And the Sword of Kahless, for all intents and purposes, is just a standard Bat'Leth since all Bat'Leth are modelled after the Sword of Kahless to begin with.

Well, interesting that you do not think there would be a modifier in any of the personal weapons or equipment. Has that been announced or is it your hopes that it does not exist?

I for one think that a modifier for personal shields, or hand held weapons etc. exist if there is a player crafting community.

Not magical, just fined tuned science, Remember, in so many episodes, like the ancient Vulcan artifact "in TNG" weapon that could detect agression and Picard said lower your weapons and it will have no effect on you.

It wasn't magic, it was ancient technology.

[Silverspar]

Well, interesting that you do not think there would be a modifier in any of the personal weapons or equipment. Has that been announced or is it your hopes that it does not exist?

I for one think that a modifier for personal shields, or hand held weapons etc. exist if there is a player crafting community.

Not magical, just fined tuned science, Remember, in so many episodes, like the ancient Vulcan artifact "in TNG" weapon that could detect agression and Picard said lower your weapons and it will have no effect on you.

It wasn't magic, it was ancient technology.

Well that's the thing, The Sword of Kahless is just a Bat'Leth, one that all modern (to Star Trek) Bat'Leth were modelled after. It's not sharper (probably be duller after a few centuries in fact) it doesn't slice better, it doesn't find the particular weak spots.

Things should get an improvement, such as a finely ccrafted Bat'Leth should be more balanced or sharper than your standard variety, but without getting into adding special tachnology to it, the Bat'Leth is not going to wildly outperform any other variants. If you do, just because it was wielded by Kahless, you are no longer in sci-fi but going into D&D.

Things like ancient technology that is better is understandable, but an engineer should have to do the R&D to make a blue print then try to build it. Finding it and slapping an ancient device and it working perfectly after thousands of years should be absolutely remote (realistically things would decay within a manner of 50 years without maintenance but this is a game and storyliens revolve around finding ancient, lost technology).

But I digress, crafters should be apart of the community, in fact I know that crafters helped create a fantastic social hub in UO.