Ground Combat - What game should it be like?

[Loekii]

We have talked alot about Space Combat, but what about Ground combat.

The devs has said they want it to be faster pace, so I am curious how they design it.

What games would you like Ground combat be modeled after?

What games or elements would you not want to see as part of the STO ground combat system?

For the Most part, I would like to see STO GC to be similar to MASSEFFECT, and avoid being like SWG. I liked ME's layout system (semi-Shooter, with RPG Skills affecting outcome). I liked how while there was some manual aiming and moving around, that the toon skills still played a large factor. I liked how if you had a low skill level, your crosshairs would weave and be unstable.

While it is a break away from the traditional RPG 'Tab Targeting' system, I think it might be something STO might want to look at for inspiration. I certainly do want it to be Toon Skill based, and I think they could still include special moves (hotbar actions) to suppliment the system, but I think a semi-shooter system might really add to the overall system.

I certainly do not want to see a repeat of SWG type system, where people were simply running around each other with 'locked targeting' and simply face rolling various 'abilities'.

[Strandberg]

It should be like any action game outthere with manual aim, called twitch gameplay - reflexes versus reflexes.

But unfortunately that is a huge bandwith hogger, so look for something automated like you see it done in mmorpgs.

If you look at the trailer you can see how the fighting resembles games like WoW with the tab target and auto-attack you mentioned.
Also having klingon melee weapons equipped will give you a negative value to your stats which is an indicator your playing an automated game with combat rolls and buffs

[ravenkind2]

I'm hoping it is similar to Tabula Rasa. While the game over all didn't succeed I really liked the way the action was set up. It was really fast paced, quick and easy to learn while still being interesting.

I really hope it isn't similar to FPS though, those are too twitchy for an MMO and it is basically whoever sees whom first gets the kill. Yes I have played many FPS and I'm very good at them, I just don't think it fits STO.

[CrisNavarro]

We have talked alot about Space Combat, but what about Ground combat.

The devs has said they want it to be faster pace, so I am curious how they design it.

What games would you like Ground combat be modeled after?

What games or elements would you not want to see as part of the STO ground combat system?

For the Most part, I would like to see STO GC to be similar to MASSEFFECT, and avoid being like SWG. I liked ME's layout system (semi-Shooter, with RPG Skills affecting outcome). I liked how while there was some manual aiming and moving around, that the toon skills still played a large factor. I liked how if you had a low skill level, your crosshairs would weave and be unstable.

While it is a break away from the traditional RPG 'Tab Targeting' system, I think it might be something STO might want to look at for inspiration. I certainly do want it to be Toon Skill based, and I think they could still include special moves (hotbar actions) to suppliment the system, but I think a semi-shooter system might really add to the overall system.

I certainly do not want to see a repeat of SWG type system, where people were simply running around each other with 'locked targeting' and simply face rolling various 'abilities'.


From what little "Ground Combat" seen in that youtube trailer, I don't think it's going to be like Mass Effect. That clip had(If i'm remembering correctly) a Feddie shooting a Klingon with a Phaser. The Klingon then slumps to his knees. The Fed toon was positioned a bit stiffly imho, and his firing was a tad off-axis I think, which to me, implies the kind of combat system you'd expect from an MMO. Auto Target, "Behind the Screen" diceroll, hit or miss, then repeat as necessary.

I'm not so much concerned with the ranged aspects of Ground Combat though, as I am the Melee aspects. That's very important for the Klingon faction and I suspect many in the Fed faction would apprecciate it as well. While i've heard bad things about Age of Conan in general, I liked what I've seen of AoC's melee combat system on youtube. I'd love to see something similar in Trek's melee mechanics. And please don't scimp on the cool attack animations. Assuming I can succesfully wade through phaser/disruptor fire to get into Melee range, make me feel like a Kung Fu god when i start unleashing the fury.

[Strandberg]

Solid points -

I guess the smart move is going with what the subscribers want and that seems to be automated grinding
I didn't think of that

I just always hated games that had combat rolls and said *miss* when I had a rocket launcher firering into some npc's face at 1 ½ feet distance, I never considered some people wanted to play a game like that, heh

[Paulo999]

hmm until we see more screenshots i suppose it might be a mix between CSS and GTA

[Strandberg]

hmm until we see more screenshots i suppose it might be a mix between CSS and GTA

Your joking right

[dyvimtorm]

Connect Four

Pavel Bester

[jagerbolt]

I think the video is a little too early of a build to make any kind of judgments on. If you follow Craig Zinkievich's twitter he made a post last month saying:

"Playtest day today. Everyone had a great time again. Ground combat is much much much better!"

So it's still a work in progress and could be very different than we are expecting.

[Strandberg]

Consider the facts though

Twitch gameplay (fps´ers such as CS) require enormous amount of BW in oppose to automated scripted gameplay.

Secondly, not a single mmorpg to date had twitch gameplay, not 1, none, nada, keines

Third, since the space combat is automated, what makes you think the ground combat wil bel the opposite?

/edit

Fourth.

All the developers keep comparing this and that element in STO to EVE and Champions online

[Griffin]

Q: Will ground combat be more like Mass Effect where it's third person, or kinda like Tabula Rasa where it was twitch based, or like World of Warcraft where there's an action bar and you have to qeue up attacks and things like that?

A: Ground Combat.. Wow you gave three really good examples and I don't want to.. not going to point at any single one of them and say "that's what our ground combat is", but there really are aspects of each of those games that do show up. It is third person, it is not FPS (first person shooter). You do have to manage your resources on the ground, but it is a lot more fast paced than a traditional MMO like WoW would be where it is really just a click. We're getting positional aspects within ground combat, so you are going to want to move and run-and-gun.. but we're trying to keep it from being a real twitch-fest.


http://vault.ign.com/View.php?view=editorials.detail&id=249


You will find that extract in the link above, that is probably the closest description of ground combat that we have thus far.

[Strandberg]

it is not FPS (first person shooter)
we're trying to keep it from being a real twitch-fest
Cryptic Studios feels that customization across the board is a huge part of the roleplaying experience
(..) and realised that a lot of them fell flat when they tried to make Star Trek space combat into a dog fighter. That really isn't what it is, that's not what it is in the shows and movies...


That actually says it all, heh

The gameplay is automated and the RPG elements are painting your ship and adding buffs to your crew

/edit

It totally makes sense from a business viewpoint though so no surprises there

[metl]

That actually says it all, heh

The gameplay is automated and the RPG elements are painting your ship and adding buffs to your crew

/edit

It totally makes sense from a business viewpoint though so no surprises there

Yeah, about the only "dogfights" was when the Defiant would circle larger ships, which were slow to move. As far as ground combat, again, it usually consisted of defensive positions and trading phaser volleys, except when it went hand to hand, which still remained fairly slowpaced. Twitch based would just be out of place in STO.

[djnattyd]

That actually says it all, heh

The gameplay is automated and the RPG elements are painting your ship and adding buffs to your crew

/edit

It totally makes sense from a business viewpoint though so no surprises there

Where does it say that gameplay is automated? From both of the comments posted, i got "It's not an FPS, it's not a twitch-fest, It's NOT a click-fest like WOW" You're just putting words in peoples mouths, claiming that "this and that" point to it being a "dice-roll" type game, but nothing that you show even says that.

[Strandberg]

Would you like it to be twitch?

[1MGSIX]

I'm just hoping they are not adding ground combat as a "second thought". Meaining, all their emphasis is on space. Being we haven't heard much at all about ground combat I am really worried about it.

[ComradeWolfie]

Would you like it to be twitch?

I think the communitiy would like you to be banned.

[ComradeWolfie]

I'm just hoping they are not adding ground combat as a "second thought". Meaining, all their emphasis is on space. Being we haven't heard much at all about ground combat I am really worried about it.

I think that because Star Trek is famous for space combat in ship vs ship form, this is what the publicity has focused on; something that is instantly recognizably Star trek

sorry to double post.

[Strandberg]

For what exactly, double posting ?

[ComradeWolfie]

For what exactly, double posting ?

for being utterly counter-productive, and trolling half the board.

[1MGSIX]

I think that because Star Trek is famous for space combat in ship vs ship form, this is what the publicity has focused on; something that is instantly recognizably Star trek

Yeah, I keep telling myself that this is the case. I think we need some more info on the ground combat to ease our worries.

[Strandberg]

for being utterly counter-productive, and trolling half the board.

Actually your the one harassing me - I argue my case at every turn

[ComradeWolfie]

Yeah, I keep telling myself that this is the case. I think we need some more info on the ground combat to ease our worries.

It could just be still in heavy development, so that anything reported could be liable to change, there is evidence for this as several dev comments have suggested that the ground combat is going through heavy playtesting/tinkering.

[Strandberg]

Yeah, I keep telling myself that this is the case. I think we need some more info on the ground combat to ease our worries.

It is classic automated 2D mmorpg gameplay - no twitch. What more info do you need

[djnattyd]

It is classic automated 2D mmorpg gameplay - no twitch. What more info do you need

I'll ask again, but slowly this time so you can understand. Where.... Does.... It.... Say.... That.... It.... Is.... Automated?

[ComradeWolfie]

It is classic automated 2D mmorpg gameplay - no twitch. What more info do you need

I demand sources referenced in the Harvard author referencing formant.

[Strandberg]

Do you understand what twitch gameplay is?

Well this is not that, lol

[ComradeWolfie]

Do you understand what twitch gameplay is?

Well this is not that, lol

how do you know its not twitch gameplay?

[djnattyd]

Do you understand what twitch gameplay is?

Well this is not that, lol

Yes i understand what "twitch" means. What i want to know is where does it say that STO is, in your words, "classic automated 2D mmorpg gameplay"?

[Strandberg]

The space combat won't be 3D either - is that going to **** you off too ?

rofl

/edit

actually following this thread, lots of people are asking for a grind fest

[ComradeWolfie]

how do you know its not twitch gameplay?

you haven't answered this question, please do.

[Strandberg]

The real question is, and the actual topic of this thread, do you want it to be twitch

[ComradeWolfie]

You haven't answerd my question, stop changing the subject and answer my question, or are you simply a troll?

[djnattyd]

You haven't answerd my question, stop changing the subject and answer my question, or are you simply a troll?

Yeah, he's a troll. You'd think that after already recieving a ban, he'd be less inclined to be an arse.

[Strandberg]

Funny, who is flaming who here, talk about a ban lmao

[ComradeWolfie]

Funny, who is flaming who here, talk about a ban lmao

He isn't flaming you, he is stating the fact you got banned, and that you are a troll.

Also you haven't answered my question.

[Strandberg]

oh yeah sorry I didn't read his post lmao, he did in fact say that

/edit

He is still flaming though

[ComradeWolfie]

oh yeah sorry I didn't read his post lmao, he did in fact say that

Are you going to answer my question?

[Lennan]

We have talked alot about Space Combat, but what about Ground combat.

The devs has said they want it to be faster pace, so I am curious how they design it.

What games would you like Ground combat be modeled after?

What games or elements would you not want to see as part of the STO ground combat system?

For the Most part, I would like to see STO GC to be similar to MASSEFFECT, and avoid being like SWG. I liked ME's layout system (semi-Shooter, with RPG Skills affecting outcome). I liked how while there was some manual aiming and moving around, that the toon skills still played a large factor. I liked how if you had a low skill level, your crosshairs would weave and be unstable.

While it is a break away from the traditional RPG 'Tab Targeting' system, I think it might be something STO might want to look at for inspiration. I certainly do want it to be Toon Skill based, and I think they could still include special moves (hotbar actions) to suppliment the system, but I think a semi-shooter system might really add to the overall system.

I certainly do not want to see a repeat of SWG type system, where people were simply running around each other with 'locked targeting' and simply face rolling various 'abilities'.


Would definately love if it was like Mass Effect. Favorite game of all time.

[Corehaven22]

Would definately love if it was like Mass Effect. Favorite game of all time.

Well, from what Ive seen it sort of looks like that doesnt it? No telling if it is, but if I had to guess, Mass Effect is what ground combat will most resemble. Just a theory anyways.

[Loekii]

I'm just hoping they are not adding ground combat as a "second thought". Meaining, all their emphasis is on space. Being we haven't heard much at all about ground combat I am really worried about it.

I remember recently see some comments about how Cryptic wanted to tackle Space first, because it was basically 'new' to Cryptic, and that they will tackle Ground combat second, as they have some basic experience in the mechanics and what not (Coh/v, CO, etc).

[Loekii]

Well, from what Ive seen it sort of looks like that doesnt it? No telling if it is, but if I had to guess, Mass Effect is what ground combat will most resemble. Just a theory anyways.

I liked ME's system, simply because it was a little more than 'Tab-Targeting' and passive ability clicking.

I don't want Ground combat to be decided because of twitch skill, like most shooters, but I would like to see some of the mechanics fleshed out in STO. I still would like to see combat dependant on the Toons skill, along with tactical choices (ie cover, exposure, supression, etc). I like the dev's comments about how position will be a factor -- those motivating movement. I just hope that 'running in the open = death sentence'.

[CherryTerri]

We have talked alot about Space Combat, but what about Ground combat.

The devs has said they want it to be faster pace, so I am curious how they design it.

What games would you like Ground combat be modeled after?

What games or elements would you not want to see as part of the STO ground combat system?

For the Most part, I would like to see STO GC to be similar to MASSEFFECT, and avoid being like SWG. I liked ME's layout system (semi-Shooter, with RPG Skills affecting outcome). I liked how while there was some manual aiming and moving around, that the toon skills still played a large factor. I liked how if you had a low skill level, your crosshairs would weave and be unstable.

While it is a break away from the traditional RPG 'Tab Targeting' system, I think it might be something STO might want to look at for inspiration. I certainly do want it to be Toon Skill based, and I think they could still include special moves (hotbar actions) to suppliment the system, but I think a semi-shooter system might really add to the overall system.

I certainly do not want to see a repeat of SWG type system, where people were simply running around each other with 'locked targeting' and simply face rolling various 'abilities'.


I want it to be like 007 from SNES where we could all run around and karate chop people! Man I remember doing that with my cousins .. laughed so darn hard ... that - pardon the word - fat character running around and my cousin souted "I'm gonna eat you!"

Aaaaaanyway, I hope it is fast paced yet easy to figure out. Not everyone has a quick trigger finger. I'm the one in Oblivion who makes the Kajeet ranged char and hides in the shadows ...

[Loekii]

I want it to be like 007 from SNES where we could all run around and karate chop people! Man I remember doing that with my cousins .. laughed so darn hard ... that - pardon the word - fat character running around and my cousin souted "I'm gonna eat you!"

Aaaaaanyway, I hope it is fast paced yet easy to figure out. Not everyone has a quick trigger finger. I'm the one in Oblivion who makes the Kajeet ranged char and hides in the shadows ...

If some Fed frog is able to get close enough to 'karate chop' any of my away team, someone on the team is getting vaporized by my Disruptor pistol -- the slow agonizing kind. :D

[knightofhyrule730]

I specifically asked about the gameplay, and Craig gave a pretty good answer. It's a mixture of ME, Tablua Rasa and WoW.

[Loekii]

I specifically asked about the gameplay, and Craig gave a pretty good answer. It's a mixture of ME, Tablua Rasa and WoW.

Well what parts of each would you like to see in STO?

I never played TR.

[knightofhyrule730]

Well what parts of each would you like to see in STO?

I never played TR.

Well technically, ME and TR are the same kinda game, I think...never played TR either. Not like I can try now, haha. I just know theres some kind of UI system along with twitch based combat...

I'd like to see the ME Cover system (or maybe the Gears of War one, worked better), combined with some kind of twitch 3rd person shooter system. Ship battles may be slow and tactical, but I'd love to see a fast paced run and gun ground game.

[Loekii]

Well technically, ME and TR are the same kinda game, I think...never played TR either. Not like I can try now, haha. I just know theres some kind of UI system along with twitch based combat...

I'd like to see the ME Cover system (or maybe the Gears of War one, worked better), combined with some kind of twitch 3rd person shooter system. Ship battles may be slow and tactical, but I'd love to see a fast paced run and gun ground game.

I personally hated the GearsofWar2 cover system -- was constantly fighting the UI to take the proper 'take cover' action, often times having my toon jump away from the crate I was trying to simply crouch behind.

What I liked about ME, was it was rather intuitive and simplistic -- you see crate, your run over to crate and hide behind crate (aka taking cover).

[knightofhyrule730]

I personally hated the GearsofWar2 cover system -- was constantly fighting the UI to take the proper 'take cover' action, often times having my toon jump away from the crate I was trying to simply crouch behind.

What I liked about ME, was it was rather intuitive and simplistic -- you see crate, your run over to crate and hide behind crate (aka taking cover).

I never played GoW2...so I don't know what that ones like. But yeah, it was a bit hard to use. ME was a lot better, though sometimes you stuck to crates instead of moving :(

[Manx]

Having read over this thread I now feel a little out of my depth as I have not played any of the games you guys have been swapping notes on; so I'm just going to add that, if it were up to me, it would be kinda like Star Wars Battlefront... and then go hide in a corner somewhere :D

[Strandberg]

Twitch gameplay requires a lot more bandwidth -

That's why not a single mmorpg to date had it, including this one.

It's harder to code and you get less subscribers

It's all in the interviews, they don't want twitch and why would they - even a lot of people on this forum are asking for it to be 2D automated

[Swizy]

I specifically asked about the gameplay, and Craig gave a pretty good answer. It's a mixture of ME, Tablua Rasa and WoW.

I was afraid that it might be something on the lines of Quake. I can sleep once again seeing this post :)

[Strandberg]

Yeah it's pretty funny, people are actually begging for 2D space combat too

Let's go for mono sound and black and white images while we are it :D

[knightofhyrule730]

That's why not a single mmorpg to date had it, including this one.


you mean like Planetside?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlanetSide

PlanetSide is a massively-multiplayer online first-person-shooter computer game published by Sony Online Entertainment and released on May 19, 2003. In PlanetSide, three factions fight for territorial control over ten different worlds. Players take on the role of individual soldiers fighting for one of the three factions within the game, and can specialize in various fields such as combat vehicle crewman, infantry, invisible infiltrator or a variety of combat support roles such as combat medic or combat engineer.

edit: after thinking about it some more...

In addition, Tablua Rasa was twitch based MMORPG. And Hellgate London had an MMO side to the game, which was also twitch based.

I've learned to try and avoid speaking in absolutes, unless you know the full picture.

[Strandberg]

you mean like Planetside?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlanetSide



edit: after thinking about it some more...

In addition, Tablua Rasa was twitch based MMORPG. And Hellgate London had an MMO side to the game, which was also twitch based.

I've learned to try and avoid speaking in absolutes, unless you know the full picture.

Er no, I meant what I said lol

-> That's why not a single mmorpg to date had it, including this one.

The first actual twitch based mmo will be a game called APB, the game that's responsible for GTA IV failing

[Loekii]

In addition, Tablua Rasa was twitch based MMORPG. And Hellgate London had an MMO side to the game, which was also twitch based.

I've learned to try and avoid speaking in absolutes, unless you know the full picture.

How specifically did Tablua Rasa work?

Was targeting completely manual, or assisted manual? What aspects made it 'twitched based'?

[Corehaven22]

Er no, I meant what I said lol

-> That's why not a single mmorpg to date had it, including this one.

The first actual twitch based mmo will be a game called APB, the game that's responsible for GTA IV failing

GTA 4 failing? In what measurable sense did GTA 4 fail? I must not have read that right. You're talking about Grand Theft Auto 4 right? Right?

Sometimes Strand.....most of the time......the stuff that comes out of you simply amazes me.

[Chillee]

The quotes from Craig regarding ground combat is that they won't be twitch-fests.. but he states there is a lot of run and gun. I am sure there will some element of twitch in ground combat, whereas the space combat will have none.

So, if you know how to strafe or duck for cover, you will be ahead of the fat-fingered crowd who hopes everything will be automated (which would be boring to the average user, hence more likely action-oriented... besides, you have to appeal some to the console gamer crowd with their XBox 360s and PS3s).

However, the proof is is seeing the final product. Just mark my words.

[Loekii]

From the TR Wiki:
Combat

The combat mixes in some aspects from shooters to add some real time action elements to the game. It still is not an outright shooter and features sticky targeting and has dice rolling based on character stats underneath. Stickiness can be adjusted to fit the preference of the player. Some weapons like the shotgun don't use the sticky targeting.[7] In addition to a hit-miss system, Tabula Rasa adjusts the damage based on the situation. Real-time factors like weapon type, ammo type, stance, cover, and movement are taken into account. The enemies are reported to have AI that will try to take advantage of the terrain, their numbers, and will try to flank the players. All this mix of system based combat and realtime movement and physics system creates a gameplay which encourages the player to think tactically; i.e. to take cover behind a pillar to get some time to reload the weapon while the enemies are getting into position again.[8]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rasa_(computer_game)

So what part was a 'shooter' if it used 'sticky targeting'? For the most part, it sounds like a WoW Hunter, with positional physics modifying the 'die Roll'.

[Strandberg]

Nice Loekii

Yeah but also consider having people using console playing against people using keyboard + mouse;

You will want automated gameplay for sure

[djnattyd]

you know what strandberg, i dont think that a single one of your posts has been constructive. All i keep seeing is "automated" this and "2D" that, and when someone has asked for proof to back up these claims, you've been unable to supply any. The FAQs, trailer and info that the devs have given us proves you wrong on every count so, grow up, stop lying, and maybe you'll make a few friends and avoid getting banned for a second time. Your choice...

[Corehaven22]

you know what strandberg, i dont think that a single one of your posts has been constructive. All i keep seeing is "automated" this and "2D" that, and when someone has asked for proof to back up these claims, you've been unable to supply any. The FAQs, trailer and info that the devs have given us proves you wrong on every count so, grow up, stop lying, and maybe you'll make a few friends and avoid getting banned for a second time. Your choice...

Look, if they would stop teaching hyperactive, pathological lying, annoying twelve year olds with ADD, how to type and use the internet in schools this wouldnt be happening. Its the fraggin public school system. Blame it on them. :p

[MajorD]

What games would you like Ground combat be modeled after?

For the Most part, I would like to see STO GC to be similar to MASSEFFECT, and avoid being like SWG.
I liked how if you had a low skill level, your crosshairs would weave and be unstable.
I've said it elsewhere, but I want the ground combat like Exteel (http://www.exteel.com/us/). It uses soft locks, two sets of weapons you switch between, and a few special attacks. No, huge bar of attacks, and maneuvering actually counts since it makes getting the soft lock harder. It would fit right in with phasers and maybe a few tricorder tricks.

Instead of two pairs of weapons, though, instead it should be a slew of phaser settings, with a couple presets you can flp through fast, if you're weapon allows it.

I like Mass Effect combat, but to me moving around feels pretty clunky. I think it could work in an MMO, but it really is too stat heavy on the equipment end. Highest level gear doesn't something like a 100 times more damage. However, the idea of a targeting reticule that gets tighter the more skill you have in shooting makes loads of sense, and is just plane cool. It fits right into player skill being dominant, while still have some level skill, without reliance on equipment, it''s also just a plane fun feature from Mass Effect.

One thing I would love is a difference between concealment and cover. Concealment makes it so the enemy cannot specifically target you, but their shots can penetrate concealment easily to hit you. With soft lock, you would lock on the concealment, and have a reduced chance of hitting your actual target. Cover is like concealment, but it also blocks incoming fire, and there are different levels of cover. Some cover can't be shot through at all, with certain weapons, and other kinds can by worn down over a little time given the right weapon. Mass Effect has cover, but no concealment, if I recall correctly. They should have really had concealment but no cover.

That's how ground battle stats should be over all, you shouldn't notice them much, but they should make playing easier. While space combat should be heavily based on equipment and in your face skills.

[knightofhyrule730]

How specifically did Tablua Rasa work?

Was targeting completely manual, or assisted manual? What aspects made it 'twitched based'?

you moved your targeting crosshair over a target and the game locked on for you you then clicked to fire. you needed to be pointed at your target though (think FPS). they then had a UI with your special abilities and attacks that could influence what kind of damage you deal.

and im confused, how is that not a twitch based MMORPG?

[Loekii]

you moved your targeting crosshair over a target and the game locked on for you you then clicked to fire. you needed to be pointed at your target though (think FPS). they then had a UI with your special abilities and attacks that could influence what kind of damage you deal.

and im confused, how is that not a twitch based MMORPG?

Not bad. You had to achieve the first 'lock' manually more or less.

Now would sticky targeting stay on target, even if they ran 'behind you'? And I take it things would not fire unless they were in front of you.

[knightofhyrule730]

Not bad. You had to achieve the first 'lock' manually more or less.

Now would sticky targeting stay on target, even if they ran 'behind you'? And I take it things would not fire unless they were in front of you.

unfortunately, i dont remember. I was only in the beta.

[nagash303]

In wow every class has loads of spells and skills to attack the enemy many of them with a cooldown of various seconds. A priest would attack with shadowword:Pain, a shamen with earthshock, a warlock with shadowbolt, a balance druid with moonfire, and so on. Now in STO we will basically all have pretty similar options in weaponry. Do I use phaser, grenades, shotgun-rifle, medic-pack, maybe a transporter that does a 10 meter port to cosen side? We all are human wether its a captain, doctor or a tactical officer. I'd personaly be pleased with "DS9:The Fallen" combat system.

[doam]

I'd deffinately like it to be like TR. Third person, semi-manual targetting but with stinky targetting and even tab targetting. Press 1 for a beam, then left click to fire... or 2 for pulse or 3 for wide angle, etc... depending on how good your phaser is and which you brought with you and how good you are with a phaser.

[Corehaven22]

My groupies, <3

Like I said yesterday ladies, you not being able to catch up is not my fault, not my responsibility and not my problem

Get off my leg

I noticed the moderators removed your posts but not ours rebuking you for being the turd that you are.

Interesting isnt it?

Go bother another forum. You're a nose picking troll. We all see it. Buzz off mate.

[MajorD]

Not bad. You had to achieve the first 'lock' manually more or less.

Now would sticky targeting stay on target, even if they ran 'behind you'? And I take it things would not fire unless they were in front of you.
In Exteel, if you don't keep the pointer on the target, once the firing sequence is done, the lock will be lost. The weapons can be fired without a lock, so you can miss and wast a firing sequence, which is especially bad with weapons that are slow to reload. Really big weapons also require you to keep the reticule on the target for an amount of time to achieve a lock before you can fire, so you have to have very good mouse control to use some of those attacks. They're good methods for true rapid MMO combat.

[Strandberg]

Not particularly no

I am more centered on being correct really, which I am rofl

[Strenik]

I would just like to say that lately I'm a little addicted to Pirates of the Caribbean Online, and it's occurred to me that if STO is at least similar (if not even better?) then it'll be a great MMO. You can go around and explore, do different things, hook up with crews, get in your ship, or someone else's, do different quests, or just be pirate-like. It's got structure and independence, all while adhearing to stuff from just THREE movies, and really it's based mostly on the first one, with references to the second.
Might be something to check in to.
I'm not the most knowledgeable about these things, by any stretch. It's just my two cents (I hope they're not Canadian). I'm just sayin'.

Live long and prosper, and Qa'pla,
Strenik puq loD Kahagh

[Strandberg]

How do you go about being "just pirate-like" ?

And you won't be able to go into your ship in this game.

What's the combat like in Pirates of the Caribbean Online? Do you have loot the give buffs etc ?

[WNxHollow]

Consider the facts though

Twitch gameplay (fps´ers such as CS) require enormous amount of BW in oppose to automated scripted gameplay.

Secondly, not a single mmorpg to date had twitch gameplay, not 1, none, nada, keines

Third, since the space combat is automated, what makes you think the ground combat wil bel the opposite?

/edit

Fourth.

All the developers keep comparing this and that element in STO to EVE and Champions online

I'd argue that Planetside has twitch gameplay. It's not scripted rolls from a hit table, but a case of players flying, driving, aiming and shooting in a free environment. I figure that's something to address in opposition to points one and two. Furthermore we have to consider upcoming MMO's such as Huxley and Global Agenda.

Onto your third point: simply because there's no real reason to assume it won't be. It makes more sense for space combat involving large ships to be more automated, like it would be in a captains role on TV. It's rare for the captain to actually pilot the ship and fire weapons themselves: they just give the orders. Conversely, the captain does choose when they shoot at someone or move about on an away mission. I'm not saying it wouldn't be rolled off a combat table but, it doesn't have to be.

[AllahMode]

they should upload star trek elite force into this game, boom, ground combat, and satisfying!! That'll show you some action, plus that craps already got the tricorder in it! bee dee bee dee beep

[Captain-Derring]

I thought Tabula Rasa had a fun ground combat system. Too bad that game came half baked and didnt make it. However, I'm not sure that ground combat model fits for trek. I agree with others that indicated that an opportunity to use some type of RP skills as part of the combat would be nice, something beyond my phaser just spamming off shot after shot while i run.

[Loekii]

I agree with others that indicated that an opportunity to use some type of RP skills as part of the combat would be nice, something beyond my phaser just spamming off shot after shot while i run.

I could imagine seeing 'Taunt' abilities -- Kirk style or 'Persuasion' - Picard style, which would possibly have some sort of effect.

I do agree, it hope there is more to ground 'combat', than just 'Pew-Pew'.

The one 'twitch' thing I hope STO avoids is 'Bunny hopping' and 'Circle straffing' (aka game mechanic exploits). Basically, combat should be real enough that if you try to do something totally stupid, you get shot. Hoping or running in a close circle offers ineffective defense and evasion -- even if other game mechanics were fooled by it.

[nagash303]

Elite Force 1 = quake engine
DS9: The Fallen = ut engine

The ut engine is better imo ;)

[Strandberg]

I can't find anywhere they call Planetside a mmorpg?
Was it any good?

You are forgetting one of the clear reasons why space combat will be automated; that being bandwidth and easier programming. Financially it makes a whole lot more sence both in pre- and postproduction.
It's cheaper, it's easier and people are even asking for non-twitch gameplay.

Naturally the same thing goes for ground combat. And like someone added today, automated gameplay is also a nice way of keeping you on a leash, say not firering on friendly starships. Who would do that you might ask lmao
Furthermore, I see very few people asking for twitch gameplay. Like your pointing out, you actually like the idea of 2D automated space
Add to that the developers keep talking about EVE :`(

I remember seeing Picard training his aim on the holodeck and I remember Riker docking manually. To me one of the core concepts of Star Trek is self-improvement. In an automated game there is no pitching skills against skills. There is no self-improvenment since your speed or accuracy has no influence whatsoever.

The flying should be like MS's Flight sims. Impossible to learn without months of training and all twitch -
Well perhaps a lil¨ less extensive
If you didn't feel up to flying you could play another role on the ship that obviously had to be filled with your friends walking around the interiors. It won't be Star Trek till your there with your crew or clan or friends.

And there can be no ground combat until you have full control of your aim with ragdoll physics that make people fly backwards when you phaser them - phasers that blow stuff up and open certain doors, maybe even set things on fire - I want to be able to scorch the ground or walls with my phaser and leave a little message, what are they called on the show, phaser burns? :D

I'd insist on a commander screen on the ship that gave you a tactical view of the planet your beaming to - the tactics officer's screen. And it's only natural Starfleet would use the this screen in combination with transporters to constantly flank or confuse during battles. You'd have teams that had their unique battle transporter strategies they've come up through live play and experience.
So elements of BF2 too. Wouldn't Starfleet be able to bomb the surface from orbit? Sure they would. Wouldn't they be able to fly in using a shuttle? Yep.

In addition to that, Starfleet would come up with new weapons and technology over time which is really a great oppertunity for developers to let their imagination run wild and come up with something special
They could add virtually any weapon or item on enemy races.

[ComradeWolfie]

The flying should be like MS's Flight sims. Impossible to learn without months of training and all twitch -
Well perhaps a lil¨ less extensive
If you didn't feel up to flying you could play another role on the ship that obviously had to be filled with your friends walking around the interiors. It won't be Star Trek till your there with your crew or clan or friends.


You think it should take months of practice to learn how to fly a Ship? do you have even the basic knowledge of market forces? If you make a MMO that requires months to learn the most basic of controls is destined to fail. Utterly, not even having the game secreat a highly addictive substance could it ever keep players.


And there can be no ground combat until you have full control of your aim with ragdoll physics that make people fly backwards when you phaser them - phasers that blow stuff up and open certain doors, maybe even set things on fire - I want to be able to scorch the ground or walls with my phaser and leave a little message, what are they called on the show, phaser burns? :D

Your essentailly calling for an FPS engine that not even pure FPS games have even come close too, sorry but you have clearly never played a single FPS game.


I'd insist on a commander screen on the ship that gave you a tactical view of the planet your beaming to - the tactics officer's screen. And it's only natural Starfleet would use the this screen in combination with transporters to constantly flank or confuse during battles. You'd have teams that had their unique battle transporter strategies they've come up through live play and experience.
So elements of BF2 too. Wouldn't Starfleet be able to bomb the surface from orbit? Sure they would. Wouldn't they be able to fly in using a shuttle? Yep.


You want teams dedicated purely to tactics within a ship, now? this works in RL, because people get paid to do nothing, but for an MMO (where time is literally money) what the hell are they supposed to do during space combat/exploration/science missions etc? Your practically calling for each ship to have a full crew compliment; you expect every ship to have a minimum of 200 players online and fully co-operating for a ship to work. That is absurd and preposterous, get out.



In addition to that, Starfleet would come up with new weapons and technology over time which is really a great oppertunity for developers to let their imagination run wild and come up with something special
They could add virtually any weapon or item on enemy races.

This could well be the first sensible thing you have said, but don't worry, if i ever meet you in game, ill still make shout out for all opposition players to come find you ok?

--Edited for spelling & Grammar--

[Strandberg]

Yeah, yeah I do

All of the technology is available and most of the stuff has already been seen in various games

But certainly I'd never expect to see anything new or progressive in a mmorpg

[Corehaven22]

Furthermore, I see very few people asking for twitch gameplay. Like your pointing out, you actually like the idea of 2D automated space
Add to that the developers keep talking about EVE :`(

Where do you keep coming up with 2D space? Perhaps Im just not understanding your meaning. And generally when the devs have talked about EVE, its been in the context that STO is NOT like EVE.

I remember seeing Picard training his aim on the holodeck and I remember Riker docking manually. To me one of the core concepts of Star Trek is self-improvement. In an automated game there is no pitching skills against skills. There is no self-improvenment since your speed or accuracy has no influence whatsoever.

We're still not sure how combat is handled. Not to hear you tell it. But anyways, I read a dev post awhile back commenting that often in ship PvP, he was defeated often, while some of the other devs were incredibly good. We've been given an indication by the devs that space combat will be very skill oriented. And by that I mean player skill, not whatever "skills" there might be pertaining to buffs etc.

The flying should be like MS's Flight sims. Impossible to learn without months of training and all twitch -Well perhaps a lil¨ less extensive
If you didn't feel up to flying you could play another role on the ship that obviously had to be filled with your friends walking around the interiors. It won't be Star Trek till your there with your crew or clan or friends.


A sort of MS Flight sim might work for a challenging space cockpit sim involving fighter craft, but it really doesnt apply to Star Treks larger ships. And Im not sure why you keep insisting on having your friends help you out on the ship. Fleets are in the game. Instead of having a few buddies help you out on your ship, your NPC crew is more than capable. Which means your friends get their own ships. Id rather play with a fleet of ships than have a bunch of people running around mine.

And there can be no ground combat until you have full control of your aim with ragdoll physics that make people fly backwards when you phaser them - phasers that blow stuff up and open certain doors, maybe even set things on fire - I want to be able to scorch the ground or walls with my phaser and leave a little message, what are they called on the show, phaser burns? :D

No there can be ground combat without what you have described. It wont be FPS. Many excellent games have handled third person shooting well, and its a good fit for STO. Yea I guess you could have some fun setting things on fire and writing little messages on walls. Not that I ever imagined Starfleet officers running around doing such things, and Im not too concerned if its not here in STO.

I'd insist on a commander screen on the ship that gave you a tactical view of the planet your beaming to - the tactics officer's screen. And it's only natural Starfleet would use the this screen in combination with transporters to constantly flank or confuse during battles. You'd have teams that had their unique battle transporter strategies they've come up through live play and experience.
So elements of BF2 too. Wouldn't Starfleet be able to bomb the surface from orbit? Sure they would. Wouldn't they be able to fly in using a shuttle? Yep.

So you're suggesting that players get good at using the transporter? I myself am glad I wont be spending a month getting my "transporter strategies" down tight. Its also unnecessary considering most cases when we'll be using the transporter will be to beam down to planets on episodic content. Why would you need a strategy for that? I do agree that a Starfleet ship could bomb a planet from orbit if they needed too, but I dont expect to see that overly much. Its not very cannon to see Federation vessels bombarding planets. And I hope some shuttle play does come into the game at some point.

In addition to that, Starfleet would come up with new weapons and technology over time which is really a great oppertunity for developers to let their imagination run wild and come up with something special
They could add virtually any weapon or item on enemy races.


Sure they could. And they probably will.

[Strandberg]

Also ComradeWolfie, since putting in interiors has been cancelled, I don't expect them to add all kinds of crazy features and ultra physics.

[ComradeWolfie]

Also ComradeWolfie, since putting in interiors has been cancelled, I don't expect them to add all kinds of crazy features and ultra physics.

you do know they pulled interiors just to **** you off, when you register we will have interiors, but you wont...

[djnattyd]

You are forgetting one of the clear reasons why space combat will be automated; that being bandwidth and easier programming.

You're forgetting that Jumpgate, Jumpgate Evolution and Black Prophecy all have twitch based combat. The decision not to make the game full twitch is because they are aiming it for all kinds of gamers, not just the FPS fans.

[Strandberg]

ComradeWolfie:

what are you talking about lmao

djnattyd:

Neither of those were a mmorpg -

[djnattyd]

djnattyd:

Neither of those were a mmorpg -

Err... Yes they are.

From the Black Prophecy FAQs;


1. What kind of game is Black Prophecy?
Black Prophecy is a fast-paced 3D real-time combat space MMO with state of the art visuals playing in the dense universe crafted by the award-winning Sci-Fi author Michael Marrak.


2. Is Black Prophecy anything like Eve Online?
Black Prophecy is a Massively Multiplayer Online Space Shooter with role-play elements focussing on fast and exciting real-time combat space battles. Our approach is to provide quick and easy game fun without the necessity to develop your character over months. So besides the fact that both games play in space, they do not have much more in common.


From the JGE FAQs;


What is Jumpgate Evolution?
Jumpgate Evolution is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction persistent world. Jumpgate takes all of the highly successful elements of the space action genre and brings them into a fully online universe accessible by thousands of people simultaneously from around the world.

[Strandberg]

go ahead and prove me wrong

[ComradeWolfie]

go ahead and prove me wrong

He just did, are you some kind of ****ing retard?

[djnattyd]

go ahead and prove me wrong

I already have, read my last post

[Strandberg]

where does it say mmorpg

[jagerbolt]

He just did, are you some kind of ****ing retard?

He's a troll.

[Loekii]

He's a troll.

Just put him on your /Ignore list.

[Strandberg]

I am not going to apologize for disagreeing with you, it's certainly not my problem if you can't handle a calm discussion

[ComradeWolfie]

I am not going to apologize for disagreeing with you, it's certainly not my problem if you can't handle a calm discussion

Its not our problem that you are bullied so badly the only way you can make yourself feel good is to come on to an MMO forum and troll. Your a real man, bet you get all the girls

[0wl]

What it "should" be like?!

Hmmm...assault on Dark Athena comes to mind! :cool:

[Strandberg]

Still waiting for you to show me how those games are mmorpgs

No reason to cry and whine like that - I am not even trying to push any buttons yet lmao

[Corehaven22]

I am not going to apologize for disagreeing with you, it's certainly not my problem if you can't handle a calm discussion

Oh Im sure he's able to handle a calm discussion. I wouldnt call the way you handle things as being calm and polite. More like rude, ignorant, pompous, loud, and annoying. He's handling you just as you should. Just as you deserve. Again, stop trolling, learn how to interact with people, or stop whining about the fact that folks get on your case for being a persistent idiot.

[djnattyd]

Still waiting for you to show me how those games are mmorpgs

No reason to cry and whine like that - I am not even trying to push any buttons yet lmao

If you're too thick to read the quotes from the FAQs for JGE and BP that i posted, then i'm not going to bother to spell it out for you.

[Corehaven22]

Still waiting for you to show me how those games are mmorpgs

No reason to cry and whine like that - I am not even trying to push any buttons yet lmao

Its an MMO. Not an RPG. Read the post. You LOST the argument. He proved you wrong, you ignoramus.

[Strandberg]

It doesn't say anywhere they are mmorpgs, because they aren't

[djnattyd]

It doesn't say anywhere they are mmorpgs, because they aren't

What difference does it make if they're role-playing games or not? They prove that bandwidth has nothing to do with whether a game has twitch combat or not. And if you read what it says for Black Prophecy, you'll see a sentance that says "with aspects of ROLE-PLAYING

[ComradeWolfie]

It doesn't say anywhere they are mmorpgs, because they aren't

ok then;

1. What kind of game is Black Prophecy?
Black Prophecy is a fast-paced 3D real-time combat space MMO with state of the art visuals playing in the dense universe crafted by the award-winning Sci-Fi author Michael Marrak.


2. Is Black Prophecy anything like Eve Online?
Black Prophecy is a Massively Multiplayer Online Space Shooter with role-play elements focussing on fast and exciting real-time combat space battles. Our approach is to provide quick and easy game fun without the necessity to develop your character over months. So besides the fact that both games play in space, they do not have much more in common.

What is Jumpgate Evolution?
Jumpgate Evolution is a Massive Multiplayer Online Game (MMOG) set in a science-fiction persistent world. Jumpgate takes all of the highly successful elements of the space action genre and brings them into a fully online universe accessible by thousands of people simultaneously from around the world.

i bolded it just for your retardation :)

[Strandberg]

I guess you have problems reading too :)

[Corehaven22]

You are forgetting one of the clear reasons why space combat will be automated; that being bandwidth and easier programming.


He responded by giving you examples of other MMOs that have dont have automated combat. The fact that whether or not they are RPGs doesnt have anything to do with it. If these games could do it, ANY MMORPG could implement it as well if they wished. So again.....you're wrong. He made a great point.

You're just trolling. Why anyone would want to come onto a forum, and tick everyone off into hating them is a mystery to me. You lessen the value of anything you might say in the future with every annoying rude post you make. Good luck having anyone take you seriously on the STO forums. At this point, your credibility is near zip.

[Strandberg]

I can't compensate for all your handicaps, they simply don't pay me enough for that lmao

[Loekii]

Agree. The bandwidth issue has been disproven, and thus should be considered moot.

I like the sounds of the system in TR, and as I stated before, I enjoyed ME's system.

Perhaps as combat skill increases, the 'target scope'' could increase as well, thus requiring less twitch accuracy accuracy needed.

Also, perhaps more 'targeted' shots/actions would come available as the toon advances as well (disarming, cover shot, distraction, etc).

Generally the basics of a shooter, with the advanced aspects of an RPG.

[Corehaven22]

Agree. The bandwidth issue has been disproven, and thus should be considered moot.

I like the sounds of the system in TR, and as I stated before, I enjoyed ME's system.

Perhaps as combat skill increases, the 'target scope'' could increase as well, thus requiring less twitch accuracy accuracy needed.

Also, perhaps more 'targeted' shots/actions would come available as the toon advances as well (disarming, cover shot, distraction, etc).

Generally the basics of a shooter, with the advanced aspects of an RPG.


I think this is close to what we may see in game. And Im glad for it. Sounds like a good way to implement ground combat, and away missions in general.

[djnattyd]

Just to prove your point about bandwidth even more incorrect, here's a quote from the FAQs of the original Jumpgate.

What is Jumpgate?
Jumpgate is a massively-multiplayer space simulation modeled after the classic space exploration games. New recruits start off in a shuttle of their faction, with enough equipment and currency to get you going - from that point on, you make your own fortune and reputation.
Other space MMOGs on the market are "space adventure RPGs" with point-and-click gameplay. Jumpgate is a true spaceflight simulator that requires actual pilot skill in docking, maneuvering, and combat

Considering that this game was released when dial-up was mainstream, explain to me how games would face bandwidth restrictions when we can currently get upwards of 100mbps with basic broadband and over 150mbps with fibre optics.

[djnattyd]

I like the sounds of the system in TR, and as I stated before, I enjoyed ME's system.

Perhaps as combat skill increases, the 'target scope'' could increase as well, thus requiring less twitch accuracy accuracy needed.

Also, perhaps more 'targeted' shots/actions would come available as the toon advances as well (disarming, cover shot, distraction, etc).

Generally the basics of a shooter, with the advanced aspects of an RPG.


I've never played TR but i too like the idea of it being similar to Mass Effect. I'd also like something like the V.A.T.S in Fallout 3, not the whole "pause, select target, unpause, shoot" thing, but rather the ability to target specific areas.

[Corehaven22]

Just to prove your point about bandwidth even more incorrect, here's a quote from the FAQs of the original Jumpgate.



Considering that this game was released when dial-up was mainstream, explain to me how games would face bandwidth restrictions when we can currently get upwards of 100mbps with basic broadband and over 150mbps with fibre optics.

With all due respect, you have more than made your point to those of us with some sense. And it was a good, well thought out point. Dont feed the troll. He's not worth your time, and will likely just keep giving snide remarks until kingdom come.

The fact of the matter is he at least somewhat began to participate in the thread subject, but when proven wrong or disagreed with, resorted to trolling, for lack of intelligence. Dont take him TOO seriously. In fact, dont take him seriously at all.

[Strandberg]

Wow, liberating to see the term "point and click" being used about RPGs -

Take a look at say BF2 versus WoW and you get the idea

For twitch to work you need 100 per cent precision and no packet loss and that's an ultra bandwitdh hogger -

Not that it would be impossible, but I get the impression the developers are under time and financial pressure, and after-all they are running a business, I'd never expect them to take the hard road in trying to feed their kids

Adding to that I saw like 2 people on this board asking for twitch gameplay

[68th]

Adding to that I saw like 2 people on this board asking for twitch gameplay


That’s because when the game was announced it won’t be twitched based a bunch of people left.

It continually makes me laugh that the people asking for that auto aim/click attack/roll dice combat system think they’re the majority based gamers wanting to play a game like this. Just because you’re the majority in these forums does not mean you are the majority of ‘potential’ players who would play this game. I truly wish I could do a poll of every gamer out there who would be half interested in playing this game asking what type of ground combat system they’d want. You’d be surprised how many people who generally play fps type games want a game that has some real depth and excitement about it but still keeps that fps element of combat.

I understand that a lot of you are afraid of this mythical fps god type player who will ‘pwn’ you every time you dare get into a phaser fight but you guys and gals need to get out of this mentality and give this brave new fps world a try before you make your judgements. And I simply do not buy the technical issues of applying the fps model to a mmo. I’ve seen 64/100/100+ player fps server instances running with no lag, with ground vehicles and aircraft whizzing around as well. If everyone ran dial-up, you’d have a point.

The RPG combat system in a world like star trek doesn’t belong. You move, aim and shoot....that’s what the fps system was designed for. Where does clicking attack icons come into play? What will these attacks be? Wide beam burst? Long range short burst? Short range powerful burst? You get the drift, it’s laughable. If we were casting spells and summoning demons then fine the RPG model is perfect, but we’re not. Star treks ground combat from the TV series and movies has always been fast paced, explosive and the use of cover whilst surprising the enemy before they saw you was used a lot. If an RPG combat system can deliver this then I’ll be quiet but I’ve yet to see one. Stargate Worlds is another perfect example. The license alone could potentially attract an enormous amount of subs but their promise of a fast paced never seen before RPG combat system is a joke at this stage. If you’re not convinced go and check out their videos. Does it resemble anything you saw on TV or at the movies? More importantly, does it look heart poundingly exciting? But I do see the need for some RPG elements within ground combat. Your characters pace/strength/ health could all ‘slightly’ increase in line with your characters experience and of course the use of new and modified weaponry and defences could come into play but never to a point where a 1 week character could ‘never’ defeat a 1 year or 10 year player for that matter. The playing field needs to be kept broadly even when it comes to ground combat for everyone to have fun, which isn’t exactly a trait of the RPG combat system.

Anyway rant over. I realise I’ll never convince most you deluded people who are stuck in your ways and it’s a shame cryptic aren’t bold enough to break the mould and get the broader gaming community interested and not just the ‘I want WOW with laser guns’ crowd.

I’ll still play it though lol just won’t be as fun as it could have been!

[Dericimoe]

I can honestly say I don't play FPS games, (although I have given them a try and don't find myself to be an extremely good, or bad player) and am very interested in slow, calculated min/maxing my MMO characters, but even I would think if a game offered enough to players of my own interests and had some FPS-like components to attract another crowd to 'try' the game, that would only be a good thing for the game, and the game-market.

It would have me taking a second look into FPS-style of play if it meant I could work on a part of my STO story/character at the same time, and perhaps there's some FPS players out there with Star Trek on their TV they watch while respawning who it would cause to give the game a try if it was an included feature...

It really is a shame though, because in a way, before the public (us) is even made aware of a game the designers have really laid out enough work and direction that this type of "basic" game element is already decided on and likely not to change.

[Manx]

I'd just like to remind everyone that all we really know about this is that it won't be FPS and it won't be a 'total twitch fest'.

Since customization is such a big thing in Cryptic's games, not using a first person view makes a degree of sense; why go to the trouble of making your character look just so, if you can't actually see it. Makes what will be a fairly big selling point kinda worthless.

As for it not being a 'total twitch fest'... well that could mean anything. It doesn't rule out the possibility that it will be twitch based, it just means it won't be completely twitch based.

I'm not saying anyone is necessarily wrong here, just that we don't really know enough to be sure of anything yet.

[Strandberg]

68th:

Your conclusion defeats the point of your argument no?

In addition to the other points I've made, I think it's also a question of the attended customers.

People who play mmorpgs are of a different kind. They seem to enjoy automated, scripted, structured grinding for loot. They breathe to spend 39 hours staright searching for that item that adds .002 per cent to their attack roll.

Like you point out there is safety in having your stats playing the game for you in oppose to having to perform.

[ktanner3]

We have talked alot about Space Combat, but what about Ground combat.

The devs has said they want it to be faster pace, so I am curious how they design it.

What games would you like Ground combat be modeled after?

What games or elements would you not want to see as part of the STO ground combat system?

For the Most part, I would like to see STO GC to be similar to MASSEFFECT, and avoid being like SWG. I liked ME's layout system (semi-Shooter, with RPG Skills affecting outcome). I liked how while there was some manual aiming and moving around, that the toon skills still played a large factor. I liked how if you had a low skill level, your crosshairs would weave and be unstable.

While it is a break away from the traditional RPG 'Tab Targeting' system, I think it might be something STO might want to look at for inspiration. I certainly do want it to be Toon Skill based, and I think they could still include special moves (hotbar actions) to suppliment the system, but I think a semi-shooter system might really add to the overall system.

I certainly do not want to see a repeat of SWG type system, where people were simply running around each other with 'locked targeting' and simply face rolling various 'abilities'.


I don't want it to be anything like the NGE, where people are running around and shooting each other. That was the worse combat system I have ever seen in an MMO. I would much prefer the combat to be similiar to how SWG did it BEFORE they did all the changes. Where you had three ham bars , your effectivness of fire was better if you were kneeling or prone and running and gunning wasn't the norm. Then just make sure that fights between two players doesn't go on and on and on. And for goodness sakes NO BUFFS IN GAMES PLEASE!!!!!

[68th]

68th:

People who play mmorpgs are of a different kind.

Thats one of my points. Theyre of a different kind because developers make it that way. There are people who want depth, meaningful story, the sense of accomplishment with items and equipment to discover and modify without having to use the slow and what most think boring rpg combat system.

Not everything accomplished by the player in an mmo is done to be better at 'pwning' people....unless the devs deliberately make it that way which is lazy game development and design in my view.

[Loekii]

I don't want it to be anything like the NGE, where people are running around and shooting each other. That was the worse combat system I have ever seen in an MMO. I would much prefer the combat to be similiar to how SWG did it BEFORE they did all the changes. Where you had three ham bars , your effectivness of fire was better if you were kneeling or prone and running and gunning wasn't the norm. Then just make sure that fights between two players doesn't go on and on and on. And for goodness sakes NO BUFFS IN GAMES PLEASE!!!!!

I agree, various positions should modify your chance to hit and dodge/evade. Perhaps they could change the size of the target circle, or simply add to the die roll.

I was not a big fan of the SWG system (too much hotbar action), and far too non-lethal. It needs to be closer to a shooter as far a lethality goes -- aka basically if you are hit 2 or 3 times, you are dead, making the 'running around' part resulting in death. For example, Lets say your Hit Points/Health is 100, phasers set to kill should do about 50 points of damage on a solid hit, and 25 points on a glancing hit. Thus 'cover' being 'king' in a fire fight.

What should extend the fire fight, should be 'misses', rather than the traditional 'hit and soak' seen in other rpgs. This would mirror the firefights seen in the Series, where the crew dodged/duck multiple shots, but if they were hit, they fell to the ground. What we did not see, is the standard crew member 15 shots to the chest before falling to the ground.

Players should play ground combat as if they were wearing a Red Shirt. :eek:

[nagash303]

PVP on away mission? Obviosly only on pvp-marked planets.

When I beem down on a PVE planet I expect AI controlled mobs down there. A yeti on Rura Penthe (Klingon Honor guard), a King Kong on whatever other planet, and a Godzilla on planet #348597. Or any primal live Cryptic thinks of. You do PVP-away missions only on PVP planets, if there are any. Nobody said you have to blow up everything&everybody yet. Please seperate this, because many away missions WILL BE PVE!

As I am not a pvp interessted player I wont do much pvp at all (there are always exceptions) and therefor concentrate on PVE AWAY MISSIONS!

[MajorD]

NO BUFFS IN GAMES PLEASE!!!!!
For ground combat, I can agree with this for the most part. However, there is at least one type of buff that should be in combat, as a passive. If you are trained in command, you should give bonuses to those you control. They could have a moral bar that effects aim and order response. But it needs to be passive, since I want to concentrate on the fight, not micromanaging in ground combat.

[ktanner3]

I agree, various positions should modify your chance to hit and dodge/evade. Perhaps they could change the size of the target circle, or simply add to the die roll.

I was not a big fan of the SWG system (too much hotbar action), and far too non-lethal. It needs to be closer to a shooter as far a lethality goes -- aka basically if you are hit 2 or 3 times, you are dead, making the 'running around' part resulting in death. For example, Lets say your Hit Points/Health is 100, phasers set to kill should do about 50 points of damage on a solid hit, and 25 points on a glancing hit. Thus 'cover' being 'king' in a fire fight.

What should extend the fire fight, should be 'misses', rather than the traditional 'hit and soak' seen in other rpgs. This would mirror the firefights seen in the Series, where the crew dodged/duck multiple shots, but if they were hit, they fell to the ground. What we did not see, is the standard crew member 15 shots to the chest before falling to the ground.

Players should play ground combat as if they were wearing a Red Shirt. :eek:

I see your point, and I certainly don't want some scenario where each of us are taking multiple shots standing still like we are immune to pain. The 1st trailer for this game only showed partial glimpses of ground combat so we have no idea how this will play out. Phasers themselves I wonder about, because in NEMESIS they were quick bursts like a gun where in the series they were long rays shooting out.

Far as seeing players dodge hits, SWG had that in the beginning before they destroyed the game. Melee fights were actually interesting see, especially if you were lucky enough to see 2 jedi going at it. Players jumped to avoid sweeps, ducked to avoid head shots and swayed from side to side. Of course the NGE changed this to where it was more like WOW and just hack hack hack.

[ktanner3]

For ground combat, I can agree with this for the most part. However, there is at least one type of buff that should be in combat, as a passive. If you are trained in command, you should give bonuses to those you control. They could have a moral bar that effects aim and order response. But it needs to be passive, since I want to concentrate on the fight, not micromanaging in ground combat.

Main thing I don't want is to see in game is a player who has two rows of buffs under his avatar. A passive or two is one thing, but when buffs start becoming a neccisity then the combat goes to garbage.

[MajorD]

Phasers themselves I wonder about, because in NEMESIS they were quick bursts like a gun where in the series they were long rays shooting out.

Far as seeing players dodge hits, SWG had that in the beginning before they destroyed the game. Melee fights were actually interesting see, especially if you were lucky enough to see 2 jedi going at it. Players jumped to avoid sweeps, ducked to avoid head shots and swayed from side to side. Of course the NGE changed this to where it was more like WOW and just hack hack hack.
I have a theory, although, it will probably never be completely proved now, that any phaser can fire like any other phaser. The idea is, pulse settings are no different than wide beam settings, that it's just just another spectrum of beam width/style. Two things support this, in DS9, Sisko modified a Type III to fire a big pulse, instead of its normal beam. I think it took some tinkering, though. In Voyager, I'm pretty sure the rifle style Type III from First Contact occasionally fired beams and pulses, in different episodes, but without any tinkering. Although, I may be thinking of Voyager's compression rifles, but same thing, they're phasers.

Dodging would be cool, they do it in the shows often enough, although cover, concealment, and moving perpendicular to attacks works better for gun fights.
Main thing I don't want is to see in game is a player who has two rows of buffs under his avatar. A passive or two is one thing, but when buffs start becoming a neccisity then the combat goes to garbage.
The number of effects isn't as important to me as the effects themselves being somewhat realistic or consistent with the shows. For instance, if a commander is experienced enough, I can imagine him having a calming effects on his people just being there. That would manifest as a slightly narrower reticule for better accuracy. If the guy reaches legendary status, it's easy to see him having an aura of luck. Just think of all the times hero captains succeed just by being in the room.

But a doctor and engineer shouldn't have auras, unless they're cross trained in command, but it should not be cumulative. Only the most powerful aura should have effect. However, if there are other doctors or engineers in the group, then the doctors or engineers should get special aura bonuses in medicine or engineering that aren't overridden by a normal command aura. That makes some sense, but it's more of a non-combat ability. Maybe an engineer would have sensor distortion ability with a tricorder.

If you are a non-security character, then you should have to cross train in security to get anything better than a phaser II, just like Mass Effect. Security should start with higher weapon access and better accuracy.

[Loekii]

For myself, I am talking about all ground combat (PvE and PvP). I certainly dont want easy NPC/Mob encounters where I can play one handed, watching 'Tudors' and drinking a glass of wine (aka WoW AI). I prefer things like ME on Vet difficulty to be the default -- where you have to actually put down the glass of wine and use both hands. :p

I agree with MajorD, Tactical should have a more efficient combat set of skills, and Engineering and Science should need to cross train if they wish to expand their weapons variety. 'Command' Auras are good, but no 'Medical' or 'engineering' auras (unless the engineer has a portable shield device or something).

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think in Ground combat, we should not 'die', but simply be incapacitated (Stun being a 1 min IC, and 'Kill' requiring medical attention). So when our Health reaches zero, we collapse. If someone with Medical Skill can get to us and has a 'Revive' skill and hypospray, they can bring you back. Otherwise you need an 'emergency beam out' to a medical bed.

What I don't want to see in Ground combat (or Ship combat), is a ranged 'heal'. If you want to apply a Hypospray to heal someone, you need to get to them. I think all players should be able to us a basic Hypospray or Med patch, for quick heals, but further Medical skills and equipment should be needed for greater heals.

[CaptainScarlet]

Consider the facts though

Twitch gameplay (fps´ers such as CS) require enormous amount of BW in oppose to automated scripted gameplay.

Secondly, not a single mmorpg to date had twitch gameplay, not 1, none, nada, keines

Third, since the space combat is automated, what makes you think the ground combat wil bel the opposite?

/edit

Fourth.

All the developers keep comparing this and that element in STO to EVE and Champions online


Just some minor nit picking here but PlanetSide from Sony was an MMO FPS with some RPG elements. It was 100% twitch based.

[Strandberg]

Heheh, go ahead - fair is fair

Yeah, that's why it is listed as a mmofps

[Loekii]

I have not seen it said yet, but I am willing to bet we will be using Personal Defense shields -- maybe some reverse engineered Borg Tech or something.

However, even with PDS, I would hope that ground combat only allows for less than 10 hits (5 imo).

Some engineering/Science skill might be a Tricorder device that helps detected enemies nearby.

I would assume that our 'Pets' would have such skills, but players should have more depth and ability in their specific field (tactical, Science, Engineer).

[Strandberg]

lol Loekii

Your an eager beaver, picturing everything in slightest detail, you even have your own stats system thought up in your head

[Kyias]

I'm hoping it is similar to Tabula Rasa. While the game over all didn't succeed I really liked the way the action was set up. It was really fast paced, quick and easy to learn while still being interesting.

I really hope it isn't similar to FPS though, those are too twitchy for an MMO and it is basically whoever sees whom first gets the kill. Yes I have played many FPS and I'm very good at them, I just don't think it fits STO.

I completely agree with this statement. I feel that STO ground combat could do VERY well using the Tabula Rasa-style of combat on ground. Hopefully, where TR failed to balance PvE with its interface STO can succeed.

Alot of untapped potential in that design.

[Predation]

From what little "Ground Combat" seen in that youtube trailer, I don't think it's going to be like Mass Effect. That clip had(If i'm remembering correctly) a Feddie shooting a Klingon with a Phaser. The Klingon then slumps to his knees. The Fed toon was positioned a bit stiffly imho, and his firing was a tad off-axis I think, which to me, implies the kind of combat system you'd expect from an MMO. Auto Target, "Behind the Screen" diceroll, hit or miss, then repeat as necessary.

I'm not so much concerned with the ranged aspects of Ground Combat though, as I am the Melee aspects. That's very important for the Klingon faction and I suspect many in the Fed faction would apprecciate it as well. While i've heard bad things about Age of Conan in general, I liked what I've seen of AoC's melee combat system on youtube. I'd love to see something similar in Trek's melee mechanics. And please don't scimp on the cool attack animations. Assuming I can succesfully wade through phaser/disruptor fire to get into Melee range, make me feel like a Kung Fu god when i start unleashing the fury.

whatever you do avoid Age of Conans combat system it simply do-sent work. wow works you can control things with cool downs.

[Predation]

What I don't want to see in Ground combat (or Ship combat), is a ranged 'heal'. If you want to apply a Hypospray to heal someone, you need to get to them.

isnt it possible to shoot a laser guided or even bio guided Hypospray from range ?

[Tamgros]

I specifically asked about the gameplay, and Craig gave a pretty good answer. It's a mixture of ME, Tablua Rasa and WoW.
One of the best questions of that Voom chat IMO, quality. The way craig answered made it seem like they were going to put their own little spin on it. I'm excited to see it.

How specifically did Tablua Rasa work?

Was targeting completely manual, or assisted manual? What aspects made it 'twitched based'?

I played TR for a two week trial about 6 months before it went under. I'm about 99% sure that you could just tab and never actually had to point at anything. On the flip side, you also never have to press tab or 'lock on'. While I don't know if it's the same mechanic as mentioned before, I would call the non tabbing mechanic as soft targeting. If you had to fire at a target on a player, and it had a bit of auto targeting to it and you could press a button to lock on forever, no matter which way you looked. Each opponent also only had one target, the chest.

To me the targeting felt a little too much like a normal WoW style MMO, with jsut a small twist. In TR you'd use the hotkey to give your Lclick or Rclick a preset skill and LorRclicking would execute the pre determined skill and target the enemy at the same time (unless it was locked or tabbed to, in which case you didn't have to look).

I did enjoy that some weapons had cone or cylinder damage though. This made it a little bit twitch based as you could fire between two guys and the damage could hit both.

Not bad. You had to achieve the first 'lock' manually more or less.

Now would sticky targeting stay on target, even if they ran 'behind you'? And I take it things would not fire unless they were in front of you.

So, you didn't have to manually the first one, but I quoted this because I think that a necessary manual soft lock would have made the game a lot better.

I also like the way ME sounds and looked (only seen my little bro play for about 5 minutes). IMO they should have a few skills and a FPS with some skills and very light locks. You should be able to target large sections of the body like arms, legs, chest and head. Cover should also play a pretty big role.

I'm glad the devs have mentioned adding cover, and 'run and gun' style play (and not 'run jump and gun' :p)

[Tamgros]

First, sorry for the double post, took to long to write.

whatever you do avoid Age of Conans combat system it simply do-sent work. wow works you can control things with cool downs.

What do you mean that AoConan's combat system doesn't work? It's pretty great IMO. Granted, the directional shielding doesn't work very well from a defensive POV because the system takes forever to react to your button clicks, but when the NPCs use it in PvE it is interesting trying to take advantage of weak spots. That, and having to use 5 different melee directions and combo moves really keeps me interested.

Also, why did you mention WoW cool downs? just wondering...

[Sinclair]

What game should ground combat be like?

Tabula Rasa - That game involved exploration but also had a frantic war zone type feel to it. Of course at that pace STO could possibly feel like Starship Troopers. Hmm...

Someone might say ground combat should be like SWG, but I found that to be a little too slow and contrived personally. It got better with time, a little bit, but was never that smooth. TR's combat was more visceral and smooth.

[Loekii]

I sort of like the idea of 'cone targeting', and some 'twitched' based options -- in the sense that you have a floating cross-hairs that you can soft target and fire (instead of always tab targeting and hot-bar queuing).

However, I would want TOON skill to be the deciding factor on the 'die roll' -- sort of like how a novice pulls the trigger instead of sqeezing, causing their aimed shot to miss.

[MajorD]

isnt it possible to shoot a laser guided or even bio guided Hypospray from range ?
There's a simpler solution, every character could carry a medipack, a combination sensor package and preloaded hypospray selection.

At it's basic level, every character can administer low level medication to themselves automatically in order to manage basic damage. It would be a basic uniform component.
At the medium level, a medic or doctor can remotely monitor and administer drugs locked out to laymen through the medipack by using their medical tricorder as a remote control.
At the high level, the medic or doctor has to use the more advanced sensors on their tricorder to get the best reading, and has to be in physical contact in order to use their more complete drug selection which the medipacks don't carry. Alternatively, the medipacks do carry the most potent drugs, but as a security measure, they require physical contact with a doctor or medic.
Doctors and medics get the more advanced drug abilities for themselves automatically at the same time they're unlocked for remote use.

I sort of like the idea of 'cone targeting', and some 'twitched' based options -- in the sense that you have a floating cross-hairs that you can soft target and fire (instead of always tab targeting and hot-bar queuing).

However, I would want TOON skill to be the deciding factor on the 'die roll' -- sort of like how a novice pulls the trigger instead of sqeezing, causing their aimed shot to miss.

Toon skill can determine the reticule diameter. The better your toon's skill the wider the reticule, or the softlock happens faster, or both. You should also be able to make weapon adjustments that effect weapon power and aiming ease. For instance, using wide beam should allow a much easier lock, but range and damage should suffer.