Lessons Learned from "Galaxies" mistakes

[ArdraVentax]

Greetings... I'm new here so forgive my sudden burst of posting... some of my questions and posts might have been covered months ago.

***

Like you I have high hopes for STO. I am kind of sick of elves and orcs and I really desire a good space game.

I am guessing that several people here also played Star Wars Galaxies. It was pretty much the best space-themed MMO until the so-called New Game Enhancements (NGE) completely ruined the game. I think Sony lost something like 200,000 players in the first six months after introducing those changes. I know I was a defector, as my class was completely trivialized.

But ever since I have pined for a good space game. EVE is not to my taste, and honestly, there isn't anything else that comes close as far as excellence of design and big-money production that gives you a good chance of having a solid, long-lasting game experience. By long lasting, I mean you would want to play the game for a couple of years at least.

If it were me, I would be paying close attention to what Galaxies did right, and what Galaxies did wrong. It's really the closest thing to what STO hopes to be (I think) and probably the best space-themed MMO to examine in terms of lessons learned, and mistakes made.

Galaxies chief blunder was they decided the game needed to be more "iconic". In short, they decided that Everyone Wanted To Be a Jedi. Everyone Wanted To Be Han Solo's Best Buddy. I think that was terribly flawed. The other thing they completely screwed up was, originally, there was a huge pool of skills that could be learned. There were no classes. Whatever skills you learned, that is what you were. So I was a dancer-pilot-sniper. (Essentially, i was BarbWire). Even though I served a primary function as an entertainer, I had sniper skills and could go on raids. God help me if I got hit, but I could do damage. Then they changed things so that you were shoehorned into set classes, with pre-defined skills.

From this example of a previous space-themed MMO that both triumphed and utterly failed, I would offer these observations... and they are just my opinion...

1)We do not need to be the best friend, cousin, or sidekick of an Iconic character. I am perfectly content to start as a nobody, and make a name for myself. I do not have to be Wesley Crusher's roommate at the Academy, I do not have to be Picard's nephew, I do not have to repeatedly interact with the heroes of the mythology to feel like I am squarely in the story, and in the Star Trek universe.

2) We do not need to all be Academy cadets. It's a big universe. I would love to be something OTHER than a starfleet officer in training. A merchant. A space pirate. A barmaid. An entertainer. A bounty hunter. A diplomat. Think of all the interesting characters that have been on Star Trek that were not ship crew, officers, or Starfleet members.

3) Long-term playability resides in a couple of features: Either you provide a generous number of character slots per server/login so people can explore various types of professions, or you make skills un-learnable and re-learnable. "End-game content" is usually pretty much the same quests and missions for the whole population, and once you've played through it, there aren't any surprises. About all you can do is free people up to attempting it with different character types with different skills, which will pose different types of challenges. One of the truly genius features of Galaxies (as it originally was published) was the ability to unlearn a skill, and apply your "points" toward learning new skills. This could be repeated over and over, so that you could in theory explore each "profession" with the same character, taking it all the way through a profession, then unlearning those skills, and starting over as something different. Everyone who played that game seemed to really appreciate that kind of replayability, and you can get very attached to a particular avatar, and this meant you could play through a lot of different skills and scenarios, and always be 'you'.

4) Personal space is important. Housing, the ability to invite a friend into your ship and socialize there, even decorate and furnish your house or space ship, is going to fascinate a lot of people.. especially girls... and yes i am female... I can only ask that the game devs include some things that aren't all about the warrior lust of the klingon empire and glorious battle - those things are fine for some people too - but PLEASE don't create a space version of "warhammer" - a game absolutely guaranteed to never, ever interest any woman on the planet (I am using hyperbole but that game is apparently exclusively for 13 year old boys just feeling that first rush of testosterone). Clothing, character customization AFTER creation, hairdos, houses, furnishings, being able to treat your space ship as a home you can walk around in, and invite friends inside, are probably not that hard to implement, and add SO much to the game. If you want to truly immerse someone in the game universe, then hey, allow them to "live" there. Not just 'quest' there.

5) Don't believe that PvP is the end-all, beat-all feature. Most people are satisfied with consensual dueling. Unfortunately PvP fans are a vocal minority and they create the illusion that it's all anyone cares about. I am not meaning to insult those who really WANT and LIKE PvP. I'm all for it as a game feature. I just don't think that the vast majority of prospective players consider it a deal-breaker. These are just my opinions, remember, I claim no authority or expertise. Feel free to extoll the virtues of PvP if you like.

6) Please consider a lifetime, up-front subscription. Lord of the Rings Online featured this and it was very popular and successful, and created a lot of up-front capital for Turbine. Galaxies never featured this, but Sony Online Entertainment provides the all-inclusive Station Pass that gives you a suite of games, so for them it made less sense. But for STO I could see that being a very good thing, and a good way for the game company to get a big influx of capital at launch that will help them budget and fund the game for the next couple of years. It pleases the players who know they will play for more than a year, and it helps establish security with the game devs and provide them with a 'war chest' so they can concentrate on bug-fixing and creating new content, not worrying about 'will the game be a success 6 months from now?'

7) Consider ways of encouraging or enforcing social interaction. One of the cleverest features in Galaxies was the use of "Battle Fatigue" among the warrior classes. Engaging in combat slowly built up "Battle Fatigue". This would slowly decrease your maximum hit points. The only cure for Battle Fatigue was to visit a cantina, and only Entertainers could heal battle fatigue. So this meant the warrior classes had to go spend a little time in the cantinas with musicians and dancing girls. A wonderful symbiosis developed - this enforced social interaction created a climate where warriors would perhaps meet a dancing girl they fancied, they could tip, romances and friendships could blossom, and musicians too. This means of forcing social interaction with the more casual players who were NOT combat-oriented was highly successful and when the NGE ended battle fatigue, the cantinas became ghost towns, and Entertainers were rendered completely useless.


I would love to see some of these concepts and features in STO. Unlearnable, re-learnable skills, Housing and ship interior decorations, clothing and hairdos to further customize your character after creation, and ways of encouraging - even enforcing- social interactions in the game. All of these things, to me, accentuate a game and make it something I look forward to playing to - it adds depth. All MMOs have combat and quests and endless level grinding. Let's add something more!! Features that are pleasant diversions. If you want to immerse us into the game world, let us live and play there too, not just work/grind/fight. Let people get married. Give them something to do between missions and battles. People get very attached to their avatars... let us spoil them and tweak them endlessly!


Well... that's my 5 cents. It was a bit more than 2 cents. Thanks for reading.

[JDiesel17]

Well said and welcome to the forums.

I was also a SWG player until the NGE broke my heart as well. So I feel your pain. I agree about the SWG original skills and learning/unlearning to build your own class. That was a great set up.

The one thing that has been stated (often) is that ship interiors will not be in the game at launch. But it is something Cryptic is looking at and will probably make it in before too long. Similar answer for the non-starfleet professions. You cannot be a pirate or independent.



*edit for typos

[TreffnonX]

2) We do not need to all be Academy cadets. It's a big universe. I would love to be something OTHER than a starfleet officer in training. A merchant. A space pirate. A barmaid. An entertainer. A bounty hunter. A diplomat. Think of all the interesting characters that have been on Star Trek that were not ship crew, officers, or Starfleet members.

it's a good idea but as far as we know that won't be possible. You most likely will be either a Klingon or a Federation Captain. Later there will be other factions, but you will not be able to freelance afaik.
So don't expect a large amount of different "jobs" in STO, it's more like the series is, but you will very likely be limited to being in command of a starship with explorational or combatative purposes only.

[Rivaris]

dont even go near swg dont even add anything that was in that game and it will be fine

[Cualtemuac]

Amen! Things like this have been covered but not articulated so well all in one little diatribe. Welcome to the forums and if I was wearing a hat it would be off to you madame.

[CrisNavarro]

Greetings... I'm new here so forgive my sudden burst of posting... some of my questions and posts might have been covered months ago.

***

Like you I have high hopes for STO. I am kind of sick of elves and orcs and I really desire a good space game.

I am guessing that several people here also played Star Wars Galaxies. It was pretty much the best space-themed MMO until the so-called New Game Enhancements (NGE) completely ruined the game. I think Sony lost something like 200,000 players in the first six months after introducing those changes. I know I was a defector, as my class was completely trivialized.

But ever since I have pined for a good space game. EVE is not to my taste, and honestly, there isn't anything else that comes close as far as excellence of design and big-money production that gives you a good chance of having a solid, long-lasting game experience. By long lasting, I mean you would want to play the game for a couple of years at least.

If it were me, I would be paying close attention to what Galaxies did right, and what Galaxies did wrong. It's really the closest thing to what STO hopes to be (I think) and probably the best space-themed MMO to examine in terms of lessons learned, and mistakes made.

Galaxies chief blunder was they decided the game needed to be more "iconic". In short, they decided that Everyone Wanted To Be a Jedi. Everyone Wanted To Be Han Solo's Best Buddy. I think that was terribly flawed. The other thing they completely screwed up was, originally, there was a huge pool of skills that could be learned. There were no classes. Whatever skills you learned, that is what you were. So I was a dancer-pilot-sniper. (Essentially, i was BarbWire). Even though I served a primary function as an entertainer, I had sniper skills and could go on raids. God help me if I got hit, but I could do damage. Then they changed things so that you were shoehorned into set classes, with pre-defined skills.

From this example of a previous space-themed MMO that both triumphed and utterly failed, I would offer these observations... and they are just my opinion...

1)We do not need to be the best friend, cousin, or sidekick of an Iconic character. I am perfectly content to start as a nobody, and make a name for myself. I do not have to be Wesley Crusher's roommate at the Academy, I do not have to be Picard's nephew, I do not have to repeatedly interact with the heroes of the mythology to feel like I am squarely in the story, and in the Star Trek universe.

2) We do not need to all be Academy cadets. It's a big universe. I would love to be something OTHER than a starfleet officer in training. A merchant. A space pirate. A barmaid. An entertainer. A bounty hunter. A diplomat. Think of all the interesting characters that have been on Star Trek that were not ship crew, officers, or Starfleet members.

3) Long-term playability resides in a couple of features: Either you provide a generous number of character slots per server/login so people can explore various types of professions, or you make skills un-learnable and re-learnable. "End-game content" is usually pretty much the same quests and missions for the whole population, and once you've played through it, there aren't any surprises. About all you can do is free people up to attempting it with different character types with different skills, which will pose different types of challenges. One of the truly genius features of Galaxies (as it originally was published) was the ability to unlearn a skill, and apply your "points" toward learning new skills. This could be repeated over and over, so that you could in theory explore each "profession" with the same character, taking it all the way through a profession, then unlearning those skills, and starting over as something different. Everyone who played that game seemed to really appreciate that kind of replayability, and you can get very attached to a particular avatar, and this meant you could play through a lot of different skills and scenarios, and always be 'you'.

4) Personal space is important. Housing, the ability to invite a friend into your ship and socialize there, even decorate and furnish your house or space ship, is going to fascinate a lot of people.. especially girls... and yes i am female... I can only ask that the game devs include some things that aren't all about the warrior lust of the klingon empire and glorious battle - those things are fine for some people too - but PLEASE don't create a space version of "warhammer" - a game absolutely guaranteed to never, ever interest any woman on the planet (I am using hyperbole but that game is apparently exclusively for 13 year old boys just feeling that first rush of testosterone). Clothing, character customization AFTER creation, hairdos, houses, furnishings, being able to treat your space ship as a home you can walk around in, and invite friends inside, are probably not that hard to implement, and add SO much to the game. If you want to truly immerse someone in the game universe, then hey, allow them to "live" there. Not just 'quest' there.

5) Don't believe that PvP is the end-all, beat-all feature. Most people are satisfied with consensual dueling. Unfortunately PvP fans are a vocal minority and they create the illusion that it's all anyone cares about. I am not meaning to insult those who really WANT and LIKE PvP. I'm all for it as a game feature. I just don't think that the vast majority of prospective players consider it a deal-breaker. These are just my opinions, remember, I claim no authority or expertise. Feel free to extoll the virtues of PvP if you like.

6) Please consider a lifetime, up-front subscription. Lord of the Rings Online featured this and it was very popular and successful, and created a lot of up-front capital for Turbine. Galaxies never featured this, but Sony Online Entertainment provides the all-inclusive Station Pass that gives you a suite of games, so for them it made less sense. But for STO I could see that being a very good thing, and a good way for the game company to get a big influx of capital at launch that will help them budget and fund the game for the next couple of years. It pleases the players who know they will play for more than a year, and it helps establish security with the game devs and provide them with a 'war chest' so they can concentrate on bug-fixing and creating new content, not worrying about 'will the game be a success 6 months from now?'

7) Consider ways of encouraging or enforcing social interaction. One of the cleverest features in Galaxies was the use of "Battle Fatigue" among the warrior classes. Engaging in combat slowly built up "Battle Fatigue". This would slowly decrease your maximum hit points. The only cure for Battle Fatigue was to visit a cantina, and only Entertainers could heal battle fatigue. So this meant the warrior classes had to go spend a little time in the cantinas with musicians and dancing girls. A wonderful symbiosis developed - this enforced social interaction created a climate where warriors would perhaps meet a dancing girl they fancied, they could tip, romances and friendships could blossom, and musicians too. This means of forcing social interaction with the more casual players who were NOT combat-oriented was highly successful and when the NGE ended battle fatigue, the cantinas became ghost towns, and Entertainers were rendered completely useless.


I would love to see some of these concepts and features in STO. Unlearnable, re-learnable skills, Housing and ship interior decorations, clothing and hairdos to further customize your character after creation, and ways of encouraging - even enforcing- social interactions in the game. All of these things, to me, accentuate a game and make it something I look forward to playing to - it adds depth. All MMOs have combat and quests and endless level grinding. Let's add something more!! Features that are pleasant diversions. If you want to immerse us into the game world, let us live and play there too, not just work/grind/fight. Let people get married. Give them something to do between missions and battles. People get very attached to their avatars... let us spoil them and tweak them endlessly!


Well... that's my 5 cents. It was a bit more than 2 cents. Thanks for reading.


Yo. What she said.

[StraboV2]

Hmm...I have a feeling you were on Kett or Starsider :D I've been on SWG since launch....and in this past month for the first time I let my account expire. I remember well the days of Hospital line ups, doctors actually being doctors and healing real wounds characters received....I also remember the days of Cantina bands before the afk buff bots (heck before buffs even) and I myself had a starport band that helped pass the 20 minute starship waits for folks (wait time is now 30 seconds...)

Unfortunately with the abolishment of fatigue, wounds or any negative effects (save clone sickness which a 5k payment to an NPC where you re-sapwn is) the neat social order is long gone, and so too is the total sandbox, customization-fest that SWG was. Now little more than a pvp racket with card games, collections, cookie cutter classes with a wow talent option and a broken community. The roleplay communities have long dried up, and have consolidated on 1 or 2 servers *throws out a Starsidergalaxy gang sign* and are a shadow of what they were. (Don't get me wrong, the communities left are fantastic....but as a whole game wide it's nowhere near what things were before /rip Corell Peaks)

....hmm I should stop from tirading on here....but yes, well said, and I think those are all good points.

[ArdraVentax]

Thanks guys.

For the record I am not a big Star Wars fan. But the game was fun.

I definitely am more of a Trekkie. I just don't necessarily dream of being Ensign Red Shirt Gonna Die On First Away Mission.

As my name indicates, the idea of being a bit of a free spirit in the galaxy sounds like fun to me.

[ktanner3]

SWG is the template all gaming comapnies should look at when they want to see what doesn't work and what will kill your game quick. There are so many blunders those developers made that I doubt I can tick offf all of them.....

1.) Launching a game called Star Wars that doesn't feel like Star Wars. Big mistake there. When I see some character that looks like something out of the knights era walking up to a bunch of stormtroopers and karate kicking them to death,well, that just doesn't feel right for the IP.

2.) Not staying true to the time frame the game is set in. Yes, this where I complain about bringing jedi into the game. The game was supposed to be set in a period where jedi was supposed to be extremely rare.Having hundreds of jedi hacking stormtroopers in broad daylight just kills imersion.

3.)Alpha classes RUIN games. Everyone eventually went jedi if they wanted to stand a chance in PVP. How can my BH compete with a class that can take on 4 or 5 players at once? That gets even worse when said alpha class teams together and runs around in PVP mode killing everyone.

4.)Rude developers. Anytime a concern was brought up on the forums the devs would shut the thread down or send out warnings. That's just the impedamy of arrogance.

5.) Lying Devs. Too many lies to list. Let's just say they told the truth maybe 1 out of every 10 times. The NGE was their greatest lie of all and in my opinion broke laws.

6.) Constant changing of the system. In the first year I played, the game had three different combat systems. Not only that, item worth changed as well. I get tired of having to learn a new system once I've mastered it. I get even more angry when all my gear is rendered useless by one patch.

7.)Nerfs. I get tired of learning how to play my character only to have to relearn it because a patch nerfed my favorite skills. All because one class of players*cough*jedi*cough* don't like being beat.

So yeah, don't come near SWG with a barge pole.

[Jerosh_Skitari]

Welcome to the forums and good points!

Many (but not all) of the things you've touched upon have been talked about, and all the official responses have been detailed in this thread (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=14535), which I urge you to look at. Furthermore, here my some responses to your points:

1) I completely agree, and I believe the devs agree to. Otherwise, this game wouldn't be set in a time period when half our beloved characters are dead, and of those who are still alive, most are in retirement and wouldn't want anything to do with us or our adventures.

2) We will either be a Starfleet officer or a Klingon Defense Forces officer, however it is my hope that there will be a lot of diversity within both of those and that gameplay as a command officer with a science background would be greatly different than gameplay as a command officer with a security background.

3) I prefer the "a lot of character slots" method of achieving replayability, but we really don't know what Cryptic will be doing on that front.

4) Cryptic loves to talk about their customizability in this game, so that should give you hope, and even though they've talked about this issue a lot, they haven't gone into all the details about it. There will be limited ship interiors at launch, but they'll be expanding that as time goes on. They'll also allow customization of interiors (but not necessarily at launch). In terms of housing, we don't know for sure. If I had to guess, I'd say our "housing" would be our crew quarters on our ship. I like the idea of letting friends come over and see our ships' interiors (no matter how limited they are), but I can't remember if they've talked about this.

5) The sense I get about PvP is that it will be less important than "end-all, beat-all feature" but more than only "consensual dueling." The way I read it is there will be a neutral zone for open PvP. Federation and Klingon space will be protected space and there will be no PvP (there has been little mention of War Games (what I hope they call dueling)). They've also talked about competitive PvE.

6) There has been a lot of discussion about fees and subscriptions, but nothing from Cryptic.

7) I believe that instead of forcing socialization, they should allow for non-combat ways of progressing (which they have talked about). I think it would be a severe mistake for Cryptic to force one type of gameplay.

[StraboV2]

SWG is the template all gaming comapnies should look at when they want to see what doesn't work and what will kill your game quick. There are so many blunders those developers made that I doubt I can tick offf all of them.....

1.) Launching a game called Star Wars that doesn't feel like Star Wars. Big mistake there. When I see some character that looks like something out of the knights era walking up to a bunch of stormtroopers and karate kicking them to death,well, that just doesn't feel right for the IP.


You couldn't do this pre-buff days... 1 stormie had 8k health and hit for about 400-800 damage. Max health was about the 800 area so you died in 1-2 hits. I remember the first week of launch we attacked a stormie and went O___O but then of course buffs came in and it was as you said a Teras Kasi fest.

It was fun one time to be afraid to go into the wilds in corpse run days.l....and when you found something it actually felt like an accomplishment. ah well.

[OddjobXL]

Hey, another old SWG Vet here. We have different interpretations of things but I'm happy to discuss them.

Sorry about the heavy editing but this post was too long! Folks can read the original above in its entirety.

If it were me, I would be paying close attention to what Galaxies did right, and what Galaxies did wrong. It's really the closest thing to what STO hopes to be (I think) and probably the best space-themed MMO to examine in terms of lessons learned, and mistakes made.

I agree with almost all of this, wholeheartedly, with the small exception that STO's much more space focused and has design goals that are much better focused, from what I can tell, on Star Trek itself rather than problematic feature lists. That's the real mess that tangled up SWG.

Galaxies chief blunder was they decided the game needed to be more "iconic".
There were no classes. Whatever skills you learned, that is what you were. So I was a dancer-pilot-sniper. (Essentially, i was BarbWire).
Then they changed things so that you were shoehorned into set classes, with pre-defined skills.

For the most part people made FTM cookie cutter characters based on optimal templates. They used the most combat effective classes and gear. Everyone and his brother was wearing composite armor and either a Teras Kasi, Rifleman or Combat Medic. PreNGE was a nightmare from the perspective of someone who saw Star Wars on a box and thought it might actually be inside.

Most people did want to be a Jedi or Han Solo. If they wanted to be BarbWire they might have bought a BarbWire game instead, if there was one.

That said, one of the reasons I came to SWG in the first place was Koster's idea about lower power differentials between characters and classless systems. That was more exciting to my way of thinking than the usual level grind and class system in most MMOs. Many different kinds of people who interact with each other on a, more or less, plausibly even playing field but bringing different skills into the mix. That's immersive, in theory. In practice it turned into, instead of a rainbow of possibilities, a big gray muddle where almost everyone looked the same and acted the same (and given the PvP nature of things there pre-WoW it wasn't always pretty) and in no way did the setting any justice at all.

Now, at least, people can function in-theme if they want. Between the Appearance Tab (which allows you to wear effective stuff, no matter how it looks, but show a completely different set of armor or clothing) and more iconic character classes (made more customizable recently with the Expertise system which is similar to the old Koster skill trees) things are better for those who want it better. Storyteller tools also help them make content that's more up to par from a Star Wars perspective than SOE generally offers.

1)We do not need to be the best friend, cousin, or sidekick of an Iconic character.

I agree with this. However, I'm also realistic enough to know I'll grin if they manage to score Patrick Stewart to reprise his role even in a small introductory sequence. Like the tutorial from Starfleet Command 3. Hopefully there may be a cameo but I definitely agree I don't want the "big stars" holding my hand all the time and sending me on missions or showing up to upstage me! I think Cryptic's already said this will be about our adventures. It's our experience. Not someone else's that will be relived. We've got our own crews, our own ships, our own missions and our own strange new worlds to discover.

2) We do not need to all be Academy cadets.

I think it's more practical to think about how to pull this off as roleplayers rather than hope the game can do it all for us. All we really need is an interior we can decorate, say a captain's quarters, the ability to invite other players over, and the option of wearing civilian clothes. You can pretend that you're any of those things.

In terms of the game, it's clear that Starfleet is what players want (like they wanted Han Solo and Jedi in SWG but didn't get them until it was far too late and the game was far too compromised in other ways). That's going to be crazy complex to pull off as it is. They're doing so much stuff. And then there are Klingons and their allied races too along with content exclusive to them!

They've never said no to civilian roles, and I think they've even said if there was demand they might consider it, but we're going to have to improvise at first and maybe for a long time. But Cryptic can offer relatively cosmetic options to allow for some wiggle room rather than developing entirely new swathes of gameplay.

3) Long-term playability resides in a couple of features.

I'd recommend reading the stickied thread about "What We Know About STO" at the top of this forum. Between procedurally generated worlds and missions and competative PvE I think Cryptic's just about at the cutting edge of long term sustainability when it comes to PvE. They're talking about something that's the opposite of scripted quests and missions.

I'm of split opinion about how many alts should be allowed. As it is, I think two would be enough. Too many and social networks break down at the server level. RP and community in SWG was strong, on Starsider at least, mainly because we all played the same characters almost every day. It was a real place with real people. CoH, on the other hand, was just chaotic. Everyone always making new characters and experimenting with new powers and costumes. Outside of informal networks or Supergroups it was impossible, for me at least, to develop a sense of familiarity or continuity with the community.

However, if they introduce multiplayer ships at some point, I'd think each player should have as many character slots as there are bridge positions. Why? Can't play 'em all at once, you're right. But you can have one character that's a captain and alts to serve as bridge crew on the ships of the people who are playing bridge crew for you right now.

That's how you keep it going. Not every character may be a captain (all the time) but every player can have a captain.

4) Personal space is important.

I'm a straight guy and I'm with you there, sister. This stuff keeps people engaged in ways I don't think alot of people understand. We should have bridges and officer's quarters, customizable (to an extent), at least at some point after launch. More interiors may be on the way once they figure out how to make it functional/useful besides just decorative.

5) Don't believe that PvP is the end-all, beat-all feature.

This is a recurring theme of mine but I do want what PvP there is in the game to be good. I may play PvP from time to time to break up the routine! But don't let it run the game or the design. From the looks of things it won't. Again, read the "What We Know..." thread stickied above.

6) Please consider a lifetime, up-front subscription.'

I'm curious to see if they'll do that but I need to know more about the game before I make that kind of commitment!

7) Consider ways of encouraging or enforcing social interaction.
This means of forcing social interaction with the more casual players who were NOT combat-oriented was highly successful and when the NGE ended battle fatigue, the cantinas became ghost towns, and Entertainers were rendered completely useless.

Actually, things are getting better again. Entertainers can do some useful buffs now. Go check out Starsider and ask around if you're curious.

http://guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=70851&TabID=613051

Holowood Galactic Studios is a guild I run with and it's mostly entertainers. Not just dancing in cantinas but organizing events and the like.

I don't know how well this would fit into Star Trek lore. That's my big concern. It's good for SWG, SWG has never been Star Wars, but it might not be so good here.

My hope really is for multiplayer ships to be the reason different kinds of players get together. Complete with lounges like 10 Forward for socializing. Maybe being a musician or a dancer could be an optional "craft" for characters eventually as well. That I'd like. I don't know that I'd force either multiplayer ships or mental fatigue routines on anyone though. I'd just make the prospect something that's interesting and fun rather than required.

Well... that's my 5 cents. It was a bit more than 2 cents. Thanks for reading.

It was a good read. We don't agree on everything but I think I understand where you're coming from! SWG 4 Lyfe! Or at least until STO comes out...

[CrisNavarro]

I suspect it will be easier to Roleplay a "independant" as part of the Klingon faction than it will be as part of the Federation faction. While Starfleet uniforms will posess some measure of customization, they've made it clear that you'll still be able to recognize them as starfleet uniforms. Unless they also give us the option of civilian attire, then I would think the Klingon "uniform"(Which will also have an unspecified level of customization) can be much more easily tweaked to look like something more akin to what you'd see on a Spacer, Mercenary, or Pirate/Rogue-type. Considering some of the kinkier stuff we've seen on Klingon and Orion(Who are confirmed to be in the Klingon faction) women, I suspect the Klingon-faction attire can also more easily be made to look like...ahem..."Entertainment wear".

Another reason I think it will be easier to Roleplay as independant in the Klingon faction is because we HAVE seen a screenshot of an Orion ship which implies(Emphasis on implies as there has been no confirmation) that members of the Klingon faction will be able to take non-Klingon ships.

I THINK(Again, I am largely speculating here so do not take any of this as fact) that while Federation faction will be kept almost exclusively to Federation syle of ships, the races that will comprise the Klingon Faction will be more of a loose alliance with the Klingons as the dominant power. So here might be(I hope) a bit more design versatility in a loose alliance than in the more strictly organized and uniform Federation structure.

[ArdraVentax]

I liked your thoughtful replies OddJobXL. You gave a good 'other side of the coin'.

All i'd say in reply is that there were a lot of interesting characters who were not Academy or Starfleet members in the Star Trek universe. Scoundrels, aliens, scientists, entertainers, diplomats, citizens, etc.

Which of you guys doesn't like the sexy green dancing girls from the original series? I actually thought it would be fun to make (and play) one of those ;)

[CrisNavarro]

I liked your thoughtful replies OddJobXL. You gave a good 'other side of the coin'.

All i'd say in reply is that there were a lot of interesting characters who were not Academy or Starfleet members in the Star Trek universe. Scoundrels, aliens, scientists, entertainers, diplomats, citizens, etc.

Which of you guys doesn't like the sexy green dancing girls from the original series? I actually thought it would be fun to make (and play) one of those ;)

lol Orion Slave Girl. Which if you read my post right above this, are in the Klingon Faction, as I said.

Interesting roleplay note, Orion women emit pheremones that allow them to enslave the will of the men of most species. The so-called "Slave girls" are in fact the Masters, pretending to be enslaved to their puppets to allay suspicion.

[ArdraVentax]

Sounds like a worthy source of role playing to me :D

[Vorador]

2) We do not need to all be Academy cadets. It's a big universe. I would love to be something OTHER than a starfleet officer in training. A merchant. A space pirate. A barmaid. An entertainer. A bounty hunter. A diplomat. Think of all the interesting characters that have been on Star Trek that were not ship crew, officers, or Starfleet members.


This is the way the game is going to be. This has already been decided. Everyone is a ship captain, no exceptions. Perhaps in an expansion they will add independent factions where you can be a merchant or pirate, but for now either you are a Starfleet officer or Klingon Warrior.


4) Personal space is important. Housing, the ability to invite a friend into your ship and socialize there, even decorate and furnish your house or space ship, is going to fascinate a lot of people.. especially girls... and yes i am female... I can only ask that the game devs include some things that aren't all about the warrior lust of the klingon empire and glorious battle - those things are fine for some people too - but PLEASE don't create a space version of "warhammer" - a game absolutely guaranteed to never, ever interest any woman on the planet (I am using hyperbole but that game is apparently exclusively for 13 year old boys just feeling that first rush of testosterone). Clothing, character customization AFTER creation, hairdos, houses, furnishings, being able to treat your space ship as a home you can walk around in, and invite friends inside, are probably not that hard to implement, and add SO much to the game. If you want to truly immerse someone in the game universe, then hey, allow them to "live" there. Not just 'quest' there.


This is something that will not happen at launch. Eventually they will add interiors to your ships, but currently it isn't a launch priority.


5) Don't believe that PvP is the end-all, beat-all feature. Most people are satisfied with consensual dueling. Unfortunately PvP fans are a vocal minority and they create the illusion that it's all anyone cares about. I am not meaning to insult those who really WANT and LIKE PvP. I'm all for it as a game feature. I just don't think that the vast majority of prospective players consider it a deal-breaker. These are just my opinions, remember, I claim no authority or expertise. Feel free to extoll the virtues of PvP if you like.


No one should be forced to PvP, but there should be areas of the game that are open to it. For example certain areas in space are considered PvP areas, if you enter it, you are flagged PvP. But this works the other way around too. I should not be forced to do PvE end game if all I want to do is PvP. I don't want STO to be like WoW where you have to raid in order to get gear to do good in PvP.


6) Please consider a lifetime, up-front subscription. Lord of the Rings Online featured this and it was very popular and successful, and created a lot of up-front capital for Turbine. Galaxies never featured this, but Sony Online Entertainment provides the all-inclusive Station Pass that gives you a suite of games, so for them it made less sense. But for STO I could see that being a very good thing, and a good way for the game company to get a big influx of capital at launch that will help them budget and fund the game for the next couple of years. It pleases the players who know they will play for more than a year, and it helps establish security with the game devs and provide them with a 'war chest' so they can concentrate on bug-fixing and creating new content, not worrying about 'will the game be a success 6 months from now?'


I agree 100% with this. It is a gamble buying a lifetime subscription, because you don't know how the game will turn out. But I have a friend who has 2 Lotro lifetime subs, and it was a very good decision on his part.


7) Consider ways of encouraging or enforcing social interaction. One of the cleverest features in Galaxies was the use of "Battle Fatigue" among the warrior classes. Engaging in combat slowly built up "Battle Fatigue". This would slowly decrease your maximum hit points. The only cure for Battle Fatigue was to visit a cantina, and only Entertainers could heal battle fatigue. So this meant the warrior classes had to go spend a little time in the cantinas with musicians and dancing girls. A wonderful symbiosis developed - this enforced social interaction created a climate where warriors would perhaps meet a dancing girl they fancied, they could tip, romances and friendships could blossom, and musicians too. This means of forcing social interaction with the more casual players who were NOT combat-oriented was highly successful and when the NGE ended battle fatigue, the cantinas became ghost towns, and Entertainers were rendered completely useless.


I agree with you on this as well. Battle fatigue was a great idea in SWG. In a game like STO, with vast empty space, its good to have a system like this that will cause people to gather in certain places and interact. If this doesn't happen, you may play the game without seeing anyone if you are out and about.

[Hagon]

The OP is chalk full of the biggest misinformation generated about SWG over the years. The mistakes made with SWG were made in initial development, and what came later were the correct steps to make the game better and more attractive to the majority of it's potential subscribers.

The facts are the game was a disappointment from the get go. It sold between 800K to 1 million boxes just because of the anticipation of a Star Wars MMO, but only had @250 to 270K people decide to actually subscribe after they tried the game out.

It then was losing an average of 10K subs per month from it's release date. The subscriber exodus was going unabated too, and most new subscribers it did manage to get were quickly leaving as well.

The changes made were due to the feedback of the majority. Those that didn't like the game enough to pay a monthly subscription fee. Those that said the combat mechanics were awful, the game play was dull and a grind, and oh wow, guess what, terrible thing of terrible things, most people that wanted to play a STAR WARS game wanted to play as a Jedi. Real shocker there.

They made the absolutely correct changes, and those changes probably would have turned things around for SWG, but unfortunately by the time they started making some of the bigger changes there was a large black hole in the market drawing most everyone through it's even horizon. That being WoW.

This revisionist history regarding SWG has been so amusing to watch over the years. It's the perfect example of how if some people spout misinformation over and over enough eventually a lot of people are going to buy into it.

People have to accept that these games are made to be played by a lot of people, not just a few people. They're not made to be our own personal playgrounds. They are made to attract large subscription bases, and as such need to give people what they want. Not to the whims of niche gamers that want to live in the games and grind away endlessly.

Yes SOE alienated a lot of hard core SWG fans with their changes, but at the time it looked like they'd have to shut down the game if the subscription drain continued unabated. They had to do something to try and get all the people that didn't like the game enough to subscribe to maybe give the game another chance. In the end they probably saved the game, but as I said they couldn't have anticipated the effects WoW was having.

So really what a lot of people are mad about is that they didn't just ride the horse they'd come with right over the cliff. :rolleyes:

[Vuk]

What SWG did wrong.

I played from the very beginning up to the Jedi revision system I believe , approximately 2 years .

1 ) Releasing a game that was inadequately stress tested . Cities were huge lagfest initially.

2 ) Server borders . Early players will recall those fun experiences . You either crashed , hungup for hours , or flat out died .

3 ) Porrly defined combat classes , and classes in gerenal.

4 ) Faction meant nothing . Basically you could wonder wherever you wanted , regardless of faction .

5 ) God character builds , took a lot of life out of the game. Once you reached a certain level you could pretty well roam at will . ( this may have changed after I cancelled my subscription )

6 ) Multiple toon players exploiting resources and later on faction

What could STO do

1 ) Test , test , test , test and more testing . As an Alpha and beta tester also listen to your testers . Gamplay is a huge factor if they make a suggestion on how to improve something or say something doesn't work from a gameplay perspective please listen. A really well tested game could have avoided the debacle that was the early years of SWG.

2 ) If you have a story line and plan stick to the plan . If you decide that the factions are going to interact then set boundries to this interaction . Ex: ) if 2 factions are at war then venturing in a designated opposing factions area will get you killed or severely injured no matter how strong you might be . Like in real life there are significant penalties for venturing across borders in military uniforms. I expect that if I cross into Romulan or Klingon space I'm going to get my ass kicked , unless I'm in a fleet of 20 - 30 ships . Even then that's an act of war with server reprocussions.

3 ) address exploit ASAP , remove the item or function being exploited and return it as soon as it's fixed .

4 ) Address spammer issues ASAP

5 ) Promises unfulfilled . If you can't do something say so , and never promise anything until the application is in test and on the verge of delivery . You've already seen the result of Starship interiors ?

[Loekii]

The OP is chalk full of the biggest misinformation generated about SWG over the years. The mistakes made with SWG were made in initial development, and what came later were the correct steps to make the game better and more attractive to the majority of it's potential subscribers.

The facts are the game was a disappointment from the get go. It sold between 800K to 1 million boxes just because of the anticipation of a Star Wars MMO, but only had @250 to 270K people decide to actually subscribe after they tried the game out.

It then was losing an average of 10K subs per month from it's release date. The subscriber exodus was going unabated too, and most new subscribers it did manage to get were quickly leaving as well.

The changes made were due to the feedback of the majority. Those that didn't like the game enough to pay a monthly subscription fee. Those that said the combat mechanics were awful, the game play was dull and a grind, and oh wow, guess what, terrible thing of terrible things, most people that wanted to play a STAR WARS game wanted to play as a Jedi. Real shocker there.

They made the absolutely correct changes, and those changes probably would have turned things around for SWG, but unfortunately by the time they started making some of the bigger changes there was a large black hole in the market drawing most everyone through it's even horizon. That being WoW.

This revisionist history regarding SWG has been so amusing to watch over the years. It's the perfect example of how if some people spout misinformation over and over enough eventually a lot of people are going to buy into it.

People have to accept that these games are made to be played by a lot of people, not just a few people. They're not made to be our own personal playgrounds. They are made to attract large subscription bases, and as such need to give people what they want. Not to the whims of niche gamers that want to live in the games and grind away endlessly.

Yes SOE alienated a lot of hard core SWG fans with their changes, but at the time it looked like they'd have to shut down the game if the subscription drain continued unabated. They had to do something to try and get all the people that didn't like the game enough to subscribe to maybe give the game another chance. In the end they probably saved the game, but as I said they couldn't have anticipated the effects WoW was having.

So really what a lot of people are mad about is that they didn't just ride the horse they'd come with right over the cliff. :rolleyes:


Well said.

SWG failed because it was not only NOT really a Star Wars game -- it really lacked the Star Wars feel, which was a big complaint through out beta and development -- but it had flawed game mechanics. The only reason it did not completely tank at release was because of the Star Wars title.

The problem is that the developers were too focused on making 'innovative game mechanics', rather than hammering home the obvious winner - Star Wars themed content. The complete breaks in Canon (ie Cloning Respawns), the poor tangents (ie Dancer/Musicans/Beast Masters/Martial Artists), and general lack of Star Wars specific content (random mission generators to kill 'rats', lack of actual factional differences between the Empire and the Rebellion, stuff found in virtually every other Star Wars game) simply killed this game for most poeple. People wanted STAR WARS, not a KOSTER MMO. SWG would have done better if they had simply cloned EQ with Star Wars skins and heavy Star Warsy content.

That is what STO needs to definitely avoid. STO needs to be a STAR TREK game first, and an MMO second. It needs to 'feel' like Star Trek to the average player, both in look and in content.

[StraboV2]

Hagon I have to correct you there. I played SWG from launch day to about 2 weeks ago. I was there when the first DEV team was fired, when the second walked out...when the PR rep was escorted from the building for voicing irritation at the teams direction....I was also there when they put together a closed focus group who had never played SWG nor an MMO and created the NGE based on that feedback. Not the majority of the community.

It took nearly 6 months before an official post was made stating this very fact by the dev team themselves and was also the same post they admitted to losing 70% of their player base. The NGE was sprung, unannounced on the community very literally overnight and the outrage was enormous. So bad in fact, SOE openly accepted a no questions asked return of the most recent expansion ToOW as a result from the fallout. (Since this expansion was created based on the old system and was at first practically unplayable) Why Smed himself stated on the forums he wanted to see a more FPS game like Battlefront while trying to run damage control....that thread was locked and deleted real fast once the frenzy started :eek:

The original game was by and far the more superior game. Later they dumbed down the game removing polish such as pack mentality for creatures and putting in points of interest, killing exploration and even took out the Imperial crackdown shuttles which were neat, plus so many other things there are too many to list. Nothing looked neater than to see Banthas laying in the sun lazilly raise their heads as you pass by then put them back down if you were no threat, or stalk you or protect their young in a defensive circle....

Combat mechanics were before exceptional. Animations were great for hand to hand and for blasters...where cover fire was actual cover fire, dodging and rolling animations, kneeling and prone actually meant something which has all given way to simple melee hits which look awful, and a constant run and shoot kite fest. You could also craft and *gasp* know how to fight as well...now it's one or the other period. Not even WOW had this. Doctors were abolished as were wounds and city and player hospitals are now unused useless structures save for roleplayers.

In the end they nearly Killed the game not saved it. Anyone who played before the NGE can see the difference on servers. Some seem to have lots of people (the ones people migrated too after the free transfers which was yet another effort to save face) but other servers are so devoid of people you are surprised to run into someone. Even the starting planet of Tattooine and Mos Eisley are totally vacant on most servers now. Thats a huge indication of the way population has gone.

Not to jump on you or anything...but those of us that have been there since the beginning have been through and know what happened. It's not a YARG kill SOE rant....but it's disconcerting to those of us who saw what we paid for smashed without notice make our way through it and then be told we're wrong about what happened ;)

[Vicelance]

One of the things which I like is that STO is being set after all the shows and movies by 30 years meaning that there is less chance of us running into the iconic characters, or the bigger issue of what role we play in the events of the series. This was one of Galaxies problems since it is set in the two year period between episodes IV and V (one of the few reasons I think KOR will do better than Galaxies when it is released).

I only played Galaxies for the two week free trial after I had joined this forum so I could find out for myself what the game was like, but one of the main things I ddin't like in it were the missions. For my Jedi character I had to go around killing creatures and people for quests. The entire time I kept asking myself would a Jedi really do this? These actions probably should have been the path to the dark side not a task that a Jedi would accept.

One thing I would like in STO is for it to feel like I'm a real Starfleet officer or member of the Klingon Defense Force, and the Prime Dircetive, honor, and other orders given to me by Starfleet and the KDF matter and wanting to avoid the consequences for violating those rules and orders.

[OddjobXL]

Why Smed himself stated on the forums he wanted to see a more FPS game like Battlefront while trying to run damage control....that thread was locked and deleted real fast once the frenzy started :eek:

That's the "tell." It wasn't just "Battlefront", it's why they wanted something like Battlefront. To get the PvPers back from WoW. That focus just reamed the whole game backwards and forwards.

Frankly, I find both preNGE and postNGE combat silly to the extreme. In both you have people running around like Benny Hill launching fireworks. The particle effects may be more childishly silly now but legions of people in composite armor running around with battleaxes and lances didn't do a whole lot for me either.

I do miss the old animal AI and the old animations quite a bit. My crafting friends miss item decay and being able to make the best items in the game too.

But SWG now, with the current set of developers, has produced something that allows players, the ones with some initiative at least, to create a little pocket of Star Wars in the game between Appearance Tab, Storyteller and the new classes. That wasn't even an option preNGE (or postNGE for a long while). You were stuck with yuck.

[Varrangian]

Appearance Tab, Storyteller and the new classes.

Did they finally put in the Appearance Tab? How is the Hoth content? What new classes, I had not heard about those or do you mean the expertise system (which was a decent way to allow some customization)?

[StraboV2]

That's the "tell." It wasn't just "Battlefront", it's why they wanted something like Battlefront. To get the PvPers back from WoW. That focus just reamed the whole game backwards and forwards.

Frankly, I find both preNGE and postNGE combat silly to the extreme. In both you have people running around like Benny Hill launching fireworks. The particle effects may be more childishly silly now but legions of people in composite armor running around with battleaxes and lances didn't do a whole lot for me either.

I do miss the old animal AI and the old animations quite a bit. My crafting friends miss item decay and being able to make the best items in the game too.

But SWG now, with the current set of developers, has produced something that allows players, the ones with some initiative at least, to create a little pocket of Star Wars in the game between Appearance Tab, Storyteller and the new classes. That wasn't even an option preNGE (or postNGE for a long while). You were stuck with yuck.

HEHEHE Benny Hill....

Yes I agree, the appearance tab is a total godsend, and was looooooong overdue. I miss decay as well, I remember before speeders me and Kay'll hoofing it across tattooine and having our boots literally wear out from walking...and we ended up barefoot ^_^ It was amusing heh.

and yes, I guess I should have expanded on the Battlefront a bit. In the end it was a terrible decision though. :(

The development team they have now is indeed trying to put some fun back in and that was encouraging to see. Still...I'll never see my long lost Ranger class again : / nor my Smuggler who could tinker with ship parts...or my Moisture farmer with his trusty rifle for those tuskens and womp rats :) taking away multi-classing after having it for so long was a big let down too.

[Loekii]

In both you have people running around like Benny Hill launching fireworks.

This is one of the things that kill combat in SWG for me. It felt less like a Star Wars game, and more like a squirt gun fight. :rolleyes:

In a ranged game, this is what needs to NOT happen. Basically, if you are running around like 'Benny Hill', the game needs to dress you in a 'Redshirt'.

There needs to be huge modifiers for taking cover, and huge negative modifiers for running around in the open.

[StraboV2]

Did they finally put in the Appearance Tab? How is the Hoth content? What new classes, I had not heard about those or do you mean the expertise system (which was a decent way to allow some customization)?

Hoth...is kind of laggy, and you need a group to get in period. It's done in an instance and while the snowspeeders and AT AT's are fun to both pilot and blow up. I found it a bit of a disappointment. Though fighting vader and getting hit for 96k damage was fun :P

[babanathie]

Overall a good post, but I think it is very important to see what SWG did at Launch, which was sell 1 million boxes, but retained less than 25%.

While I agree with your comments about 'jedi', I disagree that going 'more iconic' was a fault. IMO, it was the fact that SWG was not Iconic enough at launch, that killed the game out of the gate.

In Development and in Beta, many were complaining that the game simply was not 'Star Warsy' enough -- it was a thin 'Star Wars' Skin, rather than a Star Wars game.

STO needs to capture the Star Trek feel and atmosphere, and not let it just be a simple 'skin'. It needs to basically be a 'Star Trek' game first, and an MMO second. I would say most people that purchased SWG were looking for a Star Wars game, not a Ralph Koster 'break through' game with a star wars skin.

I agree that SWG's initial failure to capture its full potential customer base was due to a failure to make a good Star Wars atmosphere. And alot of good points were brought up as to what led to its ultimate demise. But I would like to stress some key points.

SWG (despite its failure to capture its potential) hung around the "successful" range for subscriber base. Alot of this could be attributed to Star Wars fans that hung with the game despite its atmosphere deficiency. Along with those deficiencies, SWG had some fundamental design flaws that would have droven off a much larger number of customers without the Star Wars label. Some of its issues revolved around over customization creating serious lag spikes when playing the game. A failure of the development team to properly implement crafting limits in the game leading to "broken" (read overpowered) items. The game had unbalanced professions (some of which, like droid engineer) that existed but were never allowed to be incorporated in the overall game. A failure to properly address issues by the developers who ended up listening the wrong crowd (powergamers vs fans), and the endless pursuit to capture an audience that never really existed for the game.

So in summary,

STO should feel like Star Trek.
Don't jut add stuff for the sake of adding stuff especially if it makes the game hard to play (lag).
Don't put stuff in the game that has no top end limit (especially in the crafting segment; we will break it).
Don't put useless skill in the game just because it's canon or sounds cool.
Address issues HONESTLY and create viable solutions to those issues.
Don't shoot for a potentially non-existent audience at the expense of your core player base.

[StraboV2]

This is one of the things that kill combat in SWG for me. It felt less like a Star Wars game, and more like a squirt gun fight. :rolleyes:

In a ranged game, this is what needs to NOT happen. Basically, if you are running around like 'Benny Hill', the game needs to dress you in a 'Redshirt'.

There needs to be huge modifiers for taking cover, and huge negative modifiers for running around in the open.


Very very true....nothing makes us army vets angrier than seeing someone with a HUGE weapon running around firing it one handed with unerring accuracy. I know it's a game...but it's damn annoying :P

[ArdraVentax]

The OP is chalk full of the biggest misinformation generated about SWG over the years. The mistakes made with SWG were made in initial development, and what came later were the correct steps to make the game better and more attractive to the majority of it's potential subscribers.


That's your opinion, Hagon. I described what I liked and didn't like about the game. That was not "misinformation", that was what I liked and did not like about the game. Your description of "improvements" and "better and more attractive" in regards to the NGE are right out of the mouths of the game devs, who ignored the huge outcry - and huge defection from - the game once it was implemented.

It's unquestioned that the game lost fan base, and never again reached the level of subscriptions it had prior.

So I guess it wasn't as popular as you think.

[_Pax_]

1)We do not need to be the best friend, cousin, or sidekick of an Iconic character. I am perfectly content to start as a nobody, and make a name for myself. I do not have to be Wesley Crusher's roommate at the Academy, I do not have to be Picard's nephew, I do not have to repeatedly interact with the heroes of the mythology to feel like I am squarely in the story, and in the Star Trek universe.
Reasonable, as long as you don't try to extend that to "we should not start as Captains". Remember, Starfleet covers twelve hundred worlds (~200 member worlds and ~1,000 affiliated colonies) across an area some 8,000 to 10,000 lightyears across. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of ships.

To put it in Star Wars terms: just because you're an X-Wing or Y-Wing pilot, doesn't mean you're Biggs Darklighter or Wedge Antilles. ^_^

2) We do not need to all be Academy cadets. It's a big universe. I would love to be something OTHER than a starfleet officer in training. A merchant. A space pirate. A barmaid. An entertainer. A bounty hunter. A diplomat. Think of all the interesting characters that have been on Star Trek that were not ship crew, officers, or Starfleet members.
Not happening in STO under the current design. Maybe a future expansion will give "civilian neutrals" as an option, but for now ... you're either an officer in Starfleet, or, you're an officer in the Klingon Defense Force.


4) Personal space is important. Housing, the ability to invite a friend into your ship and socialize there, even decorate and furnish your house or space ship, is going to fascinate a lot of people.. especially girls... and yes i am female...
I find that a dismayingly sexist thing for you to say. Sexist, because it implies that girls care about home decorating, boys don't ... and dismaying, becuse you ARE a girl/woman, yet, you've parroted an attitude that is IMO harmful to your own gender. :(

Let me put it this way: I'm a guy. And I, too, greatly enjoy arranging and assembling interior spaces to look JUST SO. In CoH, on the Test Server at least (where I could have my own SG or VG with enough resources to do so), I could and did spend hours upon hour after hour tweaking and oh-so-slightly altering various bits of inernal space, trying to get JUST the right "lived-in" look that also held to the theme I'd chosen for that space.

[...] PLEASE don't create a space version of "warhammer" - a game absolutely guaranteed to never, ever interest any woman on the planet (I am using hyperbole but that game is apparently exclusively for 13 year old boys just feeling that first rush of testosterone).
And this is both dismaying and insultingly sexist. Not all teenaged boys - thirteen, sixteen, or nineteen - are hormone-rules, drooling violence-and-boobie-obsessed savages. And not all girls or women, regardless of age, are hair-dressing pony-and-fairy-loving flower-crazed "peace-mongers".

*sigh* Probably not even close to most, in both cases.

[...] probably not that hard to implement [...]
You'd be surprised. And very wrong. All those things you described involve the creation of a very great deal of art assets.

7) Consider ways of encouraging or enforcing social interaction.
Encourage yes, enforce no.

One of the cleverest features in Galaxies was the use of "Battle Fatigue" among the warrior classes. Engaging in combat slowly built up "Battle Fatigue". This would slowly decrease your maximum hit points. The only cure for Battle Fatigue was to visit a cantina, and only Entertainers could heal battle fatigue. So this meant the warrior classes had to go spend a little time in the cantinas with musicians and dancing girls.
IOW, those players went AFK en masse, right? Because I know that'd be my answer to any "you've been having too much fun - go be bored for a while" game mechanics. :rolleyes:

From the get-go, it sounds to me like SWG would have been improved by reversing that Warrior-Entertainer interaction: have the Entertainers and Musicians and whatnot able to give lasting buffs; the enticement/motivation would still be there, but noone owuld be forced to abandon an activity they found enjoyable due to some completely arbitrary rule.

[ArdraVentax]

Gosh Pax I didn't realize you were so sensitive. See my use of the word hyperbole.

[Awarkle]

i remember swg from release it was incredibly complicated convoluted way to do anything. You had to get rid of one type of fatigue from a medical centre and another type of fatigue from the cantina. I dont like down time in any games and nearly all mmo's have now removed it from their games. most of them have energy loss while fighting but nearly instantanious regeneration when you stop fighting. the only game probbly still on the market that has issues with down time is probbly ffxi.

games need to start of easy and provide the depth to do what you want to do not start of complicated and end up getting harder.

Star Wars Galaxies biggest mistakes was from the DEV team or the people behind the dev team, constantly changing the game mechanics litterally on a 6 monthly basis. Much in the same way that pirates of the burning sea has changed and swapped their game mechanics to balance things. players dont like the goal posts moved every 6 months after you get used to the game.

All that cryptic has to do is make it as balanced as possible from the release but accept that true balancing can only work with a live server (beta servers never find these balance issues). but just change numbers and only change the game mechnics if they are truely broken. DONT just change things because your subscriber base isnt world of warcrafts.

[_Pax_]

1 stormie had 8k health and hit for about 400-800 damage. Max health was about the 800 area so you died in 1-2 hits.
... that sounds just HORRIBLE. What the heck is the point of bothering to play, if it takes a mob of ten or twenty guys to take on just ONE OR TWO Stormtroopers - and probably have half or more of that mob come out dead or critically wounded, anyway?? :eek:

[StraboV2]

Sadly I spent hours upon hours of ship and house decroating and had more than a few small houses filled with outfits. :o
For some we almost need a support group...

Hello...my name is Strabo and I am a customization addict :D:D

[_Pax_]

Gosh Pax I didn't realize you were so sensitive. See my use of the word hyperbole.
Hyperbole or not, you did make several sexist remarks. The fact that you exaggerated them, does not excuse that you made them in the first place.

[Awarkle]

its when your happily decorating your mining ship in the middle of the pvp zone how dare they interupt me while im trying to place my bantha head trophy :D

[Loekii]

That's your opinion, Hagon. I described what I liked and didn't like about the game. That was not "misinformation", that was what I liked and did not like about the game. Your description of "improvements" and "better and more attractive" in regards to the NGE are right out of the mouths of the game devs, who ignored the huge outcry - and huge defection from - the game once it was implemented.

It's unquestioned that the game lost fan base, and never again reached the level of subscriptions it had prior.

So I guess it wasn't as popular as you think.

I think you both have a point here.

Hagon is correct about the Initial failure of SWG - to general Star Wars fans.

You are correct about the failure of the NGE - to the remaining SWG customer base.

The point Hagon is making is that the NGE changes were geared towards the customers they had losts, and not to the customers that had decided to stay. Had SWG launched with NGE, it may have done a lot better at retaining customers. It was too little, too late to regain those lost customers -- MMO gamers rarely return to a game once it has 'failed', even it has improved. And it caused more damage, because it pushed out a good chunk of the remaining customers they had.

[StraboV2]

... that sounds just HORRIBLE. What the heck is the point of bothering to play, if it takes a mob of ten or twenty guys to take on just ONE OR TWO Stormtroopers - and probably have half or more of that mob come out dead or critically wounded, anyway?? :eek:

Hehe well see Buffs never went in at launch, but alot of mobs were made at launch for when they were. (some not all) it was a quite the surprise :D We got trapped on Dath once with a whole planet of mobs in that range and no credits to get off before....we wanted to see Rancors once we heard about them and forgot to calculate the return cost :D thanks to our wookiee friend who grinded some Gnort terminal missions to send us the money to get home! ahhh the memories :D

[Vuk]

I
So in summary,

STO should feel like Star Trek.
Don't jut add stuff for the sake of adding stuff especially if it makes the game hard to play (lag).
Don't put stuff in the game that has no top end limit (especially in the crafting segment; we will break it).
Don't put useless skill in the game just because it's canon or sounds cool.
Address issues HONESTLY and create viable solutions to those issues.
Don't shoot for a potentially non-existent audience at the expense of your core player base.

Absolutely agree . Also designing for power gamers will only lead to eventual failure . They tend to the short term , then move on. Not because they don't care for the game but because they burn through content so quickly they bcome bored . Devs can't make enough content to keep these guys happy.

[_Pax_]

Very very true....nothing makes us army vets angrier than seeing someone with a HUGE weapon running around firing it one handed with unerring accuracy. I know it's a game...but it's damn annoying :P

Not just vets, but any of us who've actually fired a real weapon in our lives.

The one thing I despise most in FPS games is the "bunny hop". Doing that should get you killed double-quick. Thank god CoD4 and CoD:WaW both make exactly that happen - if you bunny-hop, you DIE, becuase you won't be in cover and you WILL get shot ... noone jumps to where their feet are eight to ten feet off the ground, not anyone HUMAN at least.

[OddjobXL]

I think you both have a point here.

Hagon is correct about the Initial failure of SWG - to general Star Wars fans.

You are correct about the failure of the NGE - to the remaining SWG customer base.

The point Hagon is making is that the NGE changes were geared towards the customers they had losts, and not to the customers that had decided to stay. Had SWG launched with NGE, it may have done a lot better at retaining customers. It was too little, too late to regain those lost customers -- MMO gamers rarely return to a game once it has 'failed', even it has improved. And it caused more damage, because it pushed out a good chunk of the remaining customers they had.

I don't think the NGE in its original form would have helped either. However what's there now might have. They're starting to get some things right or at least making it possible for players to make a little Star Wars for themselves. Still...I'm ready to move on. STO's looking like by far the best bet. KOTOR Online looks just too...predictable to be interesting. Scripted stories and canned content. That just won't do it for me anymore.

I do agree about your other observation (and that means I'm agreeing with Hagon about something which means I'm probably wrong). SWG's lack of Star Wars content killed it early and it killed what was left with the NGE. However, the common thread I see is the PvP dependency. Koster's big ideas simply had no existing base at that time (they do now, of course, some of them), he wasn't interested in catering to the Star Wars crowd, so he had to chase the PvP guilds and give them everything they wanted. The NGE was an attempt to get them back after they defected.

[Hagon]

Hagon I have to correct you there. I played SWG from launch day to about 2 weeks ago. I was there when the first DEV team was fired, when the second walked out...when the PR rep was escorted from the building for voicing irritation at the teams direction....I was also there when they put together a closed focus group who had never played SWG nor an MMO and created the NGE based on that feedback. Not the majority of the community.

It took nearly 6 months before an official post was made stating this very fact by the dev team themselves and was also the same post they admitted to losing 70% of their player base. The NGE was sprung, unannounced on the community very literally overnight and the outrage was enormous. So bad in fact, SOE openly accepted a no questions asked return of the most recent expansion ToOW as a result from the fallout. (Since this expansion was created based on the old system and was at first practically unplayable) Why Smed himself stated on the forums he wanted to see a more FPS game like Battlefront while trying to run damage control....that thread was locked and deleted real fast once the frenzy started :eek:

The original game was by and far the more superior game. Later they dumbed down the game removing polish such as pack mentality for creatures and putting in points of interest, killing exploration and even took out the Imperial crackdown shuttles which were neat, plus so many other things there are too many to list. Nothing looked neater than to see Banthas laying in the sun lazilly raise their heads as you pass by then put them back down if you were no threat, or stalk you or protect their young in a defensive circle....

Combat mechanics were before exceptional. Animations were great for hand to hand and for blasters...where cover fire was actual cover fire, dodging and rolling animations, kneeling and prone actually meant something which has all given way to simple melee hits which look awful, and a constant run and shoot kite fest. You could also craft and *gasp* know how to fight as well...now it's one or the other period. Not even WOW had this. Doctors were abolished as were wounds and city and player hospitals are now unused useless structures save for roleplayers.

In the end they nearly Killed the game not saved it. Anyone who played before the NGE can see the difference on servers. Some seem to have lots of people (the ones people migrated too after the free transfers which was yet another effort to save face) but other servers are so devoid of people you are surprised to run into someone. Even the starting planet of Tattooine and Mos Eisley are totally vacant on most servers now. Thats a huge indication of the way population has gone.

Not to jump on you or anything...but those of us that have been there since the beginning have been through and know what happened. It's not a YARG kill SOE rant....but it's disconcerting to those of us who saw what we paid for smashed without notice make our way through it and then be told we're wrong about what happened ;)Sorry, but although you have a right to your opinions, those opinions didn't match up with the majority. That majority being those that didn't pay for even one month's subscription, and those that only paid for a few before finally leaving. The game was "teh major suck" at release and until they started making the changes. They probably saved the game, and most likely would have been able to turn things around had it not been for WoW. They knew full well they were going to lose some of the more fanatical, but they were willing to chance it. Especially since as we see clearly demonstrated here, the most overly fanatical are often the most corrosive to a game's community anyway, and losing 50 to 100k but gaining 400 or 500k others back was the gamble they took. In my opinion the right moves done at the wrong time.

Most of the truth stated there rarely gets heard though. The problem is, as usual with anything regarding these games, we mostly only seem to hear from the disgruntled few on various mmo related forums.

[babanathie]

Sorry, but although you have a right to your opinions, those opinions didn't match up with the majority. That majority being those that didn't pay for even one month's subscription, and those that only paid for a few before finally leaving. The game was "teh major suck" at release and until they started making the changes. They probably saved the game, and most likely would have been able to turn things around had it not been for WoW. They knew full well they were going to lose some of the more fanatical, but they were willing to chance it. Especially since as we see clearly demonstrated here, the most overly fanatical are often the most corrosive to a game's community anyway, and losing 50 to 100k but gaining 400 or 500k others back was the gamble they took. In my opinion the right moves done at the wrong time.

Most of the truth stated there rarely gets heard though. The problem is, as usual with anything regarding these games, we mostly only seem to hear from the disgruntled few on various mmo related forums.

When I played just before the CU and right after, the servers looked healthy from a player stand point. There were still players and nothing was deserted; so, I would think (and research at the time seemed to support this stance) that the subscriber base was around 150k to 250k. That would fall into the general range for success for a MMO during that time period (and still is the industry standard). It's been awhile since I've had an interest in those numbers, and I don't have the resources handy anymore. However, I'm very interested in where you got your numbers from. My understanding is that the current subscriber base is around 50k (give or take a few), and the subscribtion low occurred after NGE. Having been subscribing at the time, the population did go from healthy (from a player's perceptive) to near dead all within two weeks. I was underway in the pacific when the actual announcement was made and having signed in before and after is the player perceptive I'm referring to.

While you are correct in your assessment at launch in regards to player reception of the game, I really doubt the authenticity of your statements of the game during its entire run.

[Hagon]

It's unquestioned that the game lost fan base, and never again reached the level of subscriptions it had prior.

So I guess it wasn't as popular as you think.Trying hard to avoid being confrontational, but you conveniently ignored the point about how the game was deemed unpopular from the get go, and why the changes didn't take. You and some of the few that did stay to play the game after release didn't like that they changed it. No big surprise there. They knew full well a lot of you wouldn't. The thing is though, they saw their sub numbers continually going down and down, and they felt they had to try something. Unfortunately for them, they could only do too little too late.They mostly lost who they figured they would lose, but didn't get back those they thought they would. Those people that had bought the SWG box but turned their backs on the game were already happily addicted to what most everyone else was happily addicted to back then.

[ArdraVentax]

I can live with being disagreed with regarding what we like, and what we found fun or interesting about the game. I can especially live with it (and respect it ) if said disagreement is well reasoned and well stated. I have my preferences, you have yours, and the poor game devs are supposed to read our minds and please everybody, which of course is impossible.

I totally respect liking the NGE. I don't think you can defend it as "what people really wanted", when it caused the population to crash after they implemented it. It could be defended as "what you personally wanted", though. Just don't say I'm spreading disinformation for giving an opinion based on likes/dislikes.

Making whiney statements like I'm being "sexist" for suggesting girls like customization and boys like combat is the mark of someone overly sensitive who is generally looking for ways to get offended.

Sorry Pax if you don't like my posts, don't read them. I'm not here to coddle you or tiptoe around what might offend you.

[ktanner3]

Hagon I have to correct you there. I played SWG from launch day to about 2 weeks ago. I was there when the first DEV team was fired, when the second walked out...when the PR rep was escorted from the building for voicing irritation at the teams direction....I was also there when they put together a closed focus group who had never played SWG nor an MMO and created the NGE based on that feedback. Not the majority of the community.

It took nearly 6 months before an official post was made stating this very fact by the dev team themselves and was also the same post they admitted to losing 70% of their player base. The NGE was sprung, unannounced on the community very literally overnight and the outrage was enormous. So bad in fact, SOE openly accepted a no questions asked return of the most recent expansion ToOW as a result from the fallout. (Since this expansion was created based on the old system and was at first practically unplayable) Why Smed himself stated on the forums he wanted to see a more FPS game like Battlefront while trying to run damage control....that thread was locked and deleted real fast once the frenzy started :eek:

The original game was by and far the more superior game. Later they dumbed down the game removing polish such as pack mentality for creatures and putting in points of interest, killing exploration and even took out the Imperial crackdown shuttles which were neat, plus so many other things there are too many to list. Nothing looked neater than to see Banthas laying in the sun lazilly raise their heads as you pass by then put them back down if you were no threat, or stalk you or protect their young in a defensive circle....

Combat mechanics were before exceptional. Animations were great for hand to hand and for blasters...where cover fire was actual cover fire, dodging and rolling animations, kneeling and prone actually meant something which has all given way to simple melee hits which look awful, and a constant run and shoot kite fest. You could also craft and *gasp* know how to fight as well...now it's one or the other period. Not even WOW had this. Doctors were abolished as were wounds and city and player hospitals are now unused useless structures save for roleplayers.

In the end they nearly Killed the game not saved it. Anyone who played before the NGE can see the difference on servers. Some seem to have lots of people (the ones people migrated too after the free transfers which was yet another effort to save face) but other servers are so devoid of people you are surprised to run into someone. Even the starting planet of Tattooine and Mos Eisley are totally vacant on most servers now. Thats a huge indication of the way population has gone.

Not to jump on you or anything...but those of us that have been there since the beginning have been through and know what happened. It's not a YARG kill SOE rant....but it's disconcerting to those of us who saw what we paid for smashed without notice make our way through it and then be told we're wrong about what happened ;)

Personally I prefered the CU. It retained what I like about the old system while making neccessary changes to what I didn't like. NGE destroyed that and made it worse by giving away diluted jedi. Bad enough they were in game in the first place. Even worse when they were just given away. That would be like setting a Star Trek game in the Kirk era and having playable Borg or Dominion.

I played the game as well and the NGE DID kill that game, it didn't save it.The only thing keeping me playing that abomination of a game was my guild. When the NGE hit, every bio engineer,creature handler,Ranger etc.. left including our guild leader and his family. When I came back a year later, corbantis was a virtual ghost town. A far cry from when I first started and every starport was packed full of people. They recently did a server merge because of the all the dead servers. When a game goes from 300,000 subscribers to 10,000, that means it's barely on life support. Numbers don't lie.

[matt4tay]

When i hear SWG and NGE i facepalm.

It was a sad sad day in the MMO industry when that happened.

[Hagon]

When I played just before the CU and right after, the servers looked healthy from a player stand point. There were still players and nothing was deserted; so, I would think (and research at the time seemed to support this stance) that the subscriber base was around 150k to 250k. That would fall into the general range for success for a MMO during that time period (and still is the industry standard). It's been awhile since I've had an interest in those numbers, and I don't have the resources handy anymore. However, I'm very interested in where you got your numbers from. My understanding is that the current subscriber base is around 50k (give or take a few), and the subscribtion low occurred after NGE. Having been subscribing at the time, the population did go from healthy (from a player's perceptive) to near dead all within two weeks. I was underway in the pacific when the actual announcement was made and having signed in before and after is the player perceptive I'm referring to.

While you are correct in your assessment at launch in regards to player reception of the game, I really doubt the authenticity of your statements of the game during its entire run.As stated by one of the original lead designers, Dan Rubenfield,

The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we *messed* (I'm inserting a more polite word) it up to the point of
having 200k subs.

And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the
scheme of things.



And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.

If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000
subs a month.
Note - I think our subs were closer to 160-180 than 200k. It was a bad financial situation no matter how you look at it.

These quotes can be found on one of his blogs. I'd link it but it contains NTFW language and would most likely get reported. You can easily find it yourself by googling his name though. The numbers have always been common knowledge in the gaming community.

[StraboV2]

Sorry, but although you have a right to your opinions, those opinions didn't match up with the majority. That majority being those that didn't pay for even one month's subscription, and those that only paid for a few before finally leaving. The game was "teh major suck" at release and until they started making the changes. They probably saved the game, and most likely would have been able to turn things around had it not been for WoW. They knew full well they were going to lose some of the more fanatical, but they were willing to chance it. Especially since as we see clearly demonstrated here, the most overly fanatical are often the most corrosive to a game's community anyway, and losing 50 to 100k but gaining 400 or 500k others back was the gamble they took. In my opinion the right moves done at the wrong time.

Most of the truth stated there rarely gets heard though. The problem is, as usual with anything regarding these games, we mostly only seem to hear from the disgruntled few on various mmo related forums.

Well the thing is alot of MMO's have that early influx of people trying out the new kid on the block who stay for their month and free month than move on. It has nothing to do with a game sucking really. It's just the nature of MMO's. If every company with an online game were to release subscription numbers this would be a trend across all platforms. Even wow saw a dip when Warhammer came out and officially stated they were not worried about numbers...why? because people were just trying out the latest thing and would probably come back.

The trick with keeping folks and not getting caught with this trend is hooking those players and getting them to come back. This is something SWG did poorly. Both pre and post NGE...content was lackluster. Why did they have a rise in numbers? well it had nothing to do with a miracle turn around...no...it had to do with a tremendous price drop and packaging of an all in one game. People wanted to see what this new game was and tried it out, besides 3 expansions and a game for 14.99 was a damn good deal! Right now the majority of the SWG gamers are post NGE players. It was a great marketing ploy by SOE. It paid off...and the dev team is trying to put back into the game with both new and old things. (like beastmaster for example...and appearance the other) What they are trying now is the right thing...what they did before was not. Their numbers right now number perhaps 200k, definitely not half a million however. The combat system when the NGE launched was also broken to an unplayable point...you had crosshairs, and had to click for every "hit" while those were on a sprinting target...they fixed this with the auto-aim by pressing Y later. (But visually nothing ever misses anymore, only in the numbers)

As far as being dsgruntled goes...I played for the duration...if I was totally anti SOE and SWG I would have left when the NGE came ;) In fact I may go back next month to see how folks are. The loyal fanbase however I wouldn't call corrosive...the soe community forums now are a mash of flame wars and pvp hate....I still see jedi vs bounty hunter nonsense when those posting it have no idea how irrelevant those comments are now or even where that animosity originated. There's alot more at play than a few unahppy people. We can plug our ears and close our eyes all we want but the mess that happened did happen.

But we don't all have to agree no and we all have our opinions....and I will freely admit someone picking it up today could enjoy the game immensely, while others may not. They are taking the right steps today to fix what was past....but getting to here is the big mess that so many people wish didn't happen.

[ArdraVentax]

I think the sum of my "what can we learn from the mistakes" post is, in an MMO you can't logically expect to be a crew member on the bridge of the Enterprise. If there are a few hundred thousand people playing, it only makes sense that you're finding your way in the galaxy and immersing yourself in the game world, but that you aren't one of the heroes, nor closely related to or engaged with them. Putting you that close to the heroes of the game is kind of a console-minded or single-player approach. At least, that is how it seems to me.

I think Lord of the Rings Online actually gets it right. You're on your own, and just another 'citizen of middle earth', except when you attempt the "epic" quests of the game, which are only one part of the game itself. So you have tons and tons of quests and storylines that are new or unique, and involve you in the game world, and as a totally separate experience, you can also go on "epic" quests that allow you to touch some of the story line and some of the key characters.

Strabo, I totally agree with their being "tasters" of MMO's. I try a lot of them myself, and if I don't like them within a week, I move on. It doesn't mean the game itself is fundamentally flawed. It just means it wasn't what I was looking for.

[Hagon]

I totally respect liking the NGE. I don't think you can defend it as "what people really wanted", when it caused the population to crash after they implemented it. It could be defended as "what you personally wanted", though. Just don't say I'm spreading disinformation for giving an opinion based on likes/dislikes.

I haven't stated what I personally wanted have I? You're making assumptions based on... well absolutely nothing except that I don't agree with your version of history.

You're also continuing (I'll not speculate that you're doing it deliberately) to ignore that what we're talking about is the @700 to 800K people that bought the game at or soon after release and didn't like it. It's those people, and the anyone could reasonably assume even larger number that they would have the same tastes, that they wanted. Those people were out there in the millions, as was evidenced by WoW's success.

[babanathie]

As stated by one of the original lead designers, Dan Rubenfield,

These quotes can be found on one of his blogs. I'd link it but it contains NTFW language and would most likely get reported. You can easily find it yourself by googling his name though. The numbers have always been common knowledge in the gaming community.

Point of view is important. 200k for the industry is a decent number and nothing to be ashamed of. While the developers felt that they could do better, it does not invalidate the statement that the game was generally healthy. BTW, the losses of 10k a month were more a result of the developer's inability to stay consistent and adequately address serious issues in the game. If they had spent more time improving the game correctly, the subscriptions would have held steady. I doubt that the developer's statements were completely accurate though (I think net loss of subscriptions was skirted around to save face for making a boneheaded move; that and the fact the SWG and to a degree SOE as a whole were never respectful to their customers or honest to them). In other words, they may have lost 10k in subscriptions a month, but picked up 5k in new subscriptions. The net loss was 5k; however, that makes the people associated with the project look worse (alot of people will go with what looks better).

Since you brought your sources up, I guess I'll go look for mine; however, that may take some time.

[ArdraVentax]

Hagon, your original post was kind of aggressive and took what I plainly said was "MY OPINION" and you called it disinformation. Don't be surprised if you post something that attacks and then find it taken a certain way.

[_Pax_]

I think the sum of my "what can we learn from the mistakes" post is, in an MMO you can't logically expect to be a crew member on the bridge of the Enterprise. If there are a few hundred thousand people playing, it only makes sense that you're finding your way in the galaxy and immersing yourself in the game world, but that you aren't one of the heroes, nor closely related to or engaged with them. Putting you that close to the heroes of the game is kind of a console-minded or single-player approach. At least, that is how it seems to me.
Personally, if I decide that one of my characters has interacted with one of the TNG bridge crew (or similar), it'll probably be nothing more than "Yes, I attended a lecture given by ___ once, while at the academy", or "Yes, I've read some of ____'s papers on <insert appropriate field/topic here>". ^_^

Kind of like ... I'm not buddy-buddy with the guys who used to be FASA. But a couple of their regular writers were members of the same University RPG club I was in, and some of the folks there I gamed with regularly show up in the Writer and Playtester sections of some games' credits.

Or, IOW: "yeah, I've gamed with ____ one or twice. He probably wouldn't remember me by now, though." ^_^

[ArdraVentax]

If it's in that kind of a more remote association, Pax, then I think that's just fine.

I guess I just think Picard has better things to do than waste time on my lowly character, other than to bark out an order or two once in a while.

With Galaxies they took it to the extreme... Han Solo helps you bust out of prison, stuff like that. They might as well let you play as one of the main characters if it's going to be like that. But that doesn't really work in an MMO which honestly is the point I've attempted to make in that regard.

[StraboV2]

If it's in that kind of a more remote association, Pax, then I think that's just fine.

I guess I just think Picard has better things to do than waste time on my lowly character, other than to bark out an order or two once in a while.

With Galaxies they took it to the extreme... Han Solo helps you bust out of prison, stuff like that. They might as well let you play as one of the main characters if it's going to be like that. But that doesn't really work in an MMO which honestly is the point I've attempted to make in that regard.

Indeed..that whole tutorial bothered me....especially if you wanted to play an Imperial. You HAD to kill stormies and HAD to blow up tie fighters. I really wish/hope they will eventually do like EQ 2 did with their tutorial island...one for the good side, and one for the bad side. It'd be a neat thing to give to players who wish to go the way of the Empire from the get go.

[_Pax_]

I guess I just think Picard has better things to do than waste time on my lowly character, other than to bark out an order or two once in a while.
Or write a paper on X or Y archaeological developments.

Or give a lecture at Starfleet Academy, while his ship is in for a minor refit.

^_^

With Galaxies they took it to the extreme... Han Solo helps you bust out of prison, stuff like that.
Wow, that is pretty lame.

[Hagon]

Hagon, your original post was kind of aggressive and took what I plainly said was "MY OPINION" and you called it disinformation. Don't be surprised if you post something that attacks and then find it taken a certain way.Nothing I said intimated what my personal tastes are. That's something you're making assumptions on and running with. As well, don't take someone talking in a straight forward manner as being aggressive. If you can't handle people talking to you straight up then it might be prudent to reconsider posting on forums and the like. Don't get all mad because your thoughts and summations were challenged. That's life.

[ArdraVentax]

Everquest 2 was/is a pretty darn good game. I just quit playing it mostly because the graphics became kind of outdated. That's one of the great things about Lord of the Rings Online. It has perhaps the most gorgeous environment yet seen. I wish the avatars were a little less homogenous though. All the elf girls look suspiciously like Liv Tyler, and most look exactly alike, as there are no true facial tweaks. That was another failing of warhammer/borehammer/warweiner. You got to choose from a handful of hairstyles, and a handful of set faces, and that was it.

I make no bones about it, character customization and avatars are really important to me. That's why one of my favorite games is Second Life. True, it is not a usual game in that there is no level grinding, magic, or gaining powers per se. It is more about socializing, and crafting any sort of object/thing/building/clothing you can dream up. it's the most amazing game for building stuff ever made. And that means that the community makes ever-more-spectacular and realistic skins, hair, eyes, etc. Truly, there is no game that can touch the excellence of avatars in Second Life.

[CrisNavarro]

With Galaxies they took it to the extreme... Han Solo helps you bust out of prison, stuff like that.

I'm sure there were probably worse examples but THAT specific example there doesn't sound so bad to me. At least, at a glance.

I mean If I just happen to be in the same Prison as Han Solo, I could see him breaking me out in the course of his own breakout. Han's a cool guy and as a general rule of thumb people in Imperial prisons(I'm assuming it's an Imp prison we're talking about here) probably don't deserve to be there. So if he doesn't have to go too far out of his way, or indeed needs a bit of extra help to make his own escape, then sure it's plausable. Then we go our seperate ways afterwards.

Or is Han breaking IN to the prison for the express purpose of saving you? THAT I can understand as being a bit much. There's like maybe three or four people in the Galaxy Han Solo would stick his neck that far out for.

[ArdraVentax]

Yes, near as I could tell, you're important enough (shall I say "iconic" enough, hehe) that Han Solo is there to bust you out. Kind of hard to explain in an MMO when there are two or three hundred thousand of you ... etc.

[CrisNavarro]

Yes, near as I could tell, you're important enough (shall I say "iconic" enough, hehe) that Han Solo is there to bust you out. Kind of hard to explain in an MMO when there are two or three hundred thousand of you ... etc.

Ah yeah i see what you mean. They do something similar in City of Villains. The tutorial stage features arachnos(The top dog supervillain organization of the game) breaking you out of prison. BUT they're not there for you specifically. Exactly.

Basically one of the Arachnos seers said that somebody in that prison was going to do some great service for Arachnos at some point in the future so arachnos just decided to show up and break EVERYONE out.

[Sinclair]

I would certainly not want to see STO look like SWG in too many ways, if any.

Someone made a good point that SWG was initially a sandbox game that really procreated role playing in cantinas, in hospitals, and elsewhere. That was really cool. But you know what, it was not attractive to a big mass of players and SWG started failing. Not many players log on to play Star Wars and then choose to play a medic sitting around in a hospital all night. That just doesnt feel like Star Wars. Us hard core RPers may have been happy with it, but many people left the game. That was why Sony changed it. If the original sand box appeal was a commercial success, they would have stuck with it and not invested huge dollars into revamping the game. There is design for a niche market, and then design for the big market.

As much as I enjoy role playing niches, I want STO to be a commercial success. I want it to be a commercial success so that it attracts and retains alot of players, earns the developer a ton of money, so that they have the funds to keep the game alive and continue to improve it. This means, I think, building the core game around the action that the masses will be attracted to, and not the niche sand boxes. The sand box pieces can be added later as the game does well and has the financial fortitude to add features like than and still survive. What is the core of Star Trek? I'd say it is 1) Starship-driven Exploration in Space, and 2) Away Team Missions. Sounds like the developers are all over these two items. That's a good thing for the long term future of the game in my opinon.

[Vuk]

I What is the core of Star Trek? I'd say it is 1) Starship-driven Exploration in Space, and 2) Away Team Missions. Sounds like the developers are all over these two items. That's a good thing for the long term future of the game in my opinon.

Unfortunately most people here are expecting a run and gun fly my invincible fear me spacecraft anywhere and everywhere . My impressions is the majority want endless run of combat and uber ships . There is going to be a great deal of whining about lack of combat this or my ship can't defeat a simple scout craft , all that uberness wasted . There's going to be a lot of disappointed kids , and I don't mean age wise.

[OddjobXL]

I think you're wrong. I see many intelligent and thoughtful people in these forums who really want this product to work and to feel like Star Trek. This seems to be what Cryptic wants too.

I must be missing something!

[Loekii]

Koster's big ideas simply had no existing base at that time (they do now, of course, some of them), he wasn't interested in catering to the Star Wars crowd, so he had to chase the PvP guilds and give them everything they wanted. The NGE was an attempt to get them back after they defected.

Imo, when have a license, especially a well known one, you design a game for the followers of that license first, and then go after specific gaming niches second. You do not do what Koster did, which was take the Star Wars license, and then use it as a 'crutch' for your 'dream game'.

I sounds like Cryptic gets that concept -- ie Locking Kestral in a room with a DvD player, and a typewriter, etc.

[OddjobXL]

I think they do too and I'm a cynical, crusty, old *******. Matter of fact, I was so skeptical about this project (without even knowing anything about it) after SWG I paid it no mind until quite recently.

I suspect once word gets out there will be more people glancing up and thinking, "Oh, that's kinda neat what they're doing there."

[Saladin_Class]

SOE and all the companies since SWG figure we are too supid to find our own way in the galaxy

and need to be guided like helpless sheep.


When SOE decided to ruin SWG, they seemed not to mind the loss of revenue.

Im usre Blizzard liked SOEs improvments to SWG

the other 200k of us did not

[USS_Parallax]

You know, I don't care about those mistakes. Though I didn't play Galaxies much I would want to be a Jedi. Give me a Jedi. Screw up the game in the process? I don't care. I just want a Jedi.

[Sjet]

You know, I don't care about those mistakes. Though I didn't play Galaxies much I would want to be a Jedi. Give me a Jedi. Screw up the game in the process? I don't care. I just want a Jedi.

Thats what can kill the game for most people.

It's all a matter of interests and opinions, and unless everyone is asked you don't know what the outcome will be.

[Vig]

This post made me weepy. I miss waking up early on a Saturday morning, checking on my harvesters, stopping at my favorite shops looking for deals, stocking my vendors (wait, I hated REstocking my vendors) and then winding up back home at my little shop outside of Theed where I would craft the best damn ship parts in the galaxy. Oh man I loved when the customers came in. I would make them a ship with custom parts and it took like an hour while we just passed the time. I think I was one of the 5 richest on the server and no one could touch my ship parts! Man those were the days. I miss my houses, my city, my guild, my friends and damn do I miss my Kimogila! It was all so real...lol.

A great deal of hopes and dreams rest upon STO. Man am I ready.

Oh and Death to Sony!!

[masoniclight]

STO should look at the success and failures of all games previous.. not just the farce that was SWG..

Taking a hard look as to why the following games are successful in the loyal and dedicated followings they have would be good for starters:

1) City of Heroes/Villains: (Still the game I play religiously and is my fave MMO bar none) The character creator is second to none.. the options you have to look unique are almost now to the point of uncountable.
Great game play, fun atmosphere, feeling like a hero or villain, and now you can create your own content.. superior! (and yes COH was a Cryptic product initially.. and hard act to follow IMO)

2) Guild Wars: who'd a thunk it? A game you buy once and no monthly subscription becomes one of the most popular games ever.. nice.. its capped slot mechanics for your powers makes you think about what spells you are going to need in combat.. a game that makes you think about tactics and strategy? Priceless..

3) Lord of the Rings Online: another great title that so many worried would not be done right.. boy were the critics wrong huh? LOTRO has a following and a community that absolutely is incredible.. the game details, world, and attention to detail has pleased even hard core Tolkien lovers.. now that's impressive in itself

4) Eve Online: yeah I know, you either love it or hate it, but you have to give major kudoes to the devs of that game.. and incredible universe that really does feel like.. well.. a universe! A very, very impressive space based MMO

and then STO needs to avoid the failures of these games:

1) Horizons: sadly the only MMO where you could actually be a dragon.. and they manage to screw that up along with a game that could have been great.. sad sad case...

2) Ryzom: A first, the truly revolutionary character build concept where every positive thing you could do to your character had negative, balancing counter effects.. ruined by the devs who gave into the community who complained that the game was "too hard.." pathetic..

3) SWG: as already noted

and just for a note..

Please Cryptic.. do not copy anything from WOW.. we don't need that mentality around here.. I most certainly don't ever want to see the USS IPWNUNEWBXOXOBYTNKS or Captain 133TDOODIWNTSXorL33tGEAR

just my 2 influence...

[ivan50265]

Welcome to the forums and I hope everybody learned from the SWG fiasco as it is probably the most disected mmo don't in its early history.

[wootage]

Sorry, posted in wrong place. No delete function apparent.

[ktanner3]

Welcome to the forums and I hope everybody learned from the SWG fiasco as it is probably the most disected mmo don't in its early history.

As it deserves to be. When a game with a popular IP like Star Wars(billions of dollars from movies and merchandising) fails to pull even one million subscribers, then it should be looked at for what went wrong. Trouble is there are too many problems to count. A real shame for a franchise that was revolutionary to pop culture.

[Flatfingers]

Ah, Star Wars Galaxies. You'll be a case study in MMORPG design and operation for years to come.

Not that any two people are going to agree on what lessons you teach, but still....

I've mentioned my theories on the lessons of SWG many times before, so I won't go into too much detail in this thread. (Most of that stuff can be found here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/10/lessons-of-star-wars-galaxies_07.html), here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/05/lessons-of-star-wars-galaxies.html), here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2005/11/betrayal-of-star-wars-galaxies.html), here (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2005/09/categorization-of-changes-to-star-wars.html), and here (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=3839).)

Short version: SWG's original design was extraordinarily rich in both world-features and pure gameplay. The planets were large and detailed; the gameplay systems (even without cities, vehicles and space) were highly detailed and remarkably well-integrated.

Most impressively, the professions (into which SWG's skills were grouped) seemed to have been designed around types of gameplay similar to the Bartle types: lots of combat professions (including Bounty Hunter) for the Manipulators [Killers] and Achievers; Artisans, Architects and Engineers (crafting) as well as Scout/Ranger for the Explorers; and Medics/Doctors, Chefs, Entertainers and Image Designers for the Socializers. There were even dependencies deliberately built into these playstyles, such as the Battle Fatigue mechanic mentioned upthread.

Unfortunately, what SWG didn't have was probably the single most crucial thing that it needed: the "Star Wars feel." As an example of gameworld design, SWG was amazing. As a way to live out our Star Wars fantasies... not so much.

This was clear from the first months after the game launched. I started writing about it in late 2003, but the first specific comments on it that I saved are dated from October 16, 2004, in SWG: Five Fixes for Core Systems (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2004/10/swg-five-fixes-for-core-systems.html). I discussed it again on May 10, 2005, in SWG: Foundations for Success (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2005/05/swg-foundations-for-success.html). If those posts are representative (and I believe they are), the game's not feeling enough like Star Wars was a pretty widely-held view.

SWG had other serious problems not directly related to specific gameplay mechanics, such as launching before it should have, an unfortunately well-deserved reputation for bugginess (even compared to other MMORPGs), a perverse fixation on adding combat gameplay to the detriment of all non-combat gameplay, and the bizarre habit of LucasArts producers and SOE developers to deliver wholesale replacements of generally working systems instead of fixing the minor reported problems with those systems. But not feeling enough like Star Wars was the worst problem by far.

I actually called for SOE to make some changes to address that problem. Not that I thought they listened to me; I'm just saying I'm on record as having been in favor of making some changes to help the game feel more like Star Wars.

But I never dreamed what the actual LucasArts solution would be. I thought they'd find a fun way to make the existing content and gameplay feel more like the movies. Instead, they took their usual modus operandi of design overreaction to entirely new heights by gutting the existing gameplay almost in its entirety, perhaps in the belief that once all that dumb worldy (or as LucasArts exec Nancy MacIntyre put it, "Uncle Owen (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/10/arts/10star.html?ex=1291870800&en=1ee43597bdcca355&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss)") stuff was gone, what was left would be pure Star Wars.

Reading the comments of fans (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/11/order_66.html), as well as remarks by SOE CEO John Smedley (http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/2301-John-Smedley-Exclusive-Interview-with-the-SOE-CEO.2) himself, that would seem to have been a world-class error in judgement.

Years later we're still sifting through the radioactive rubble produced by dropping that bomb, with no clear conclusions in sight. (Although good efforts can be found from Allen Varney (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_101/560-Blowing-Up-Galaxies) and Henry Jenkins (http://www.henryjenkins.org/2006/07/so_what_happened_to_star_wars.html).) So I won't try to assert any such conclusions here.

All I'll say is that while SWG seems like it should be a great source of lessons for the folks designing Star Trek Online, maybe it's not. Too many people seem to be able to draw too many radically different conclusions from the facts and opinions about what happened.

If there are any lessons from SWG for STO that we might be able to agree on, perhaps these will suffice:

Once your game launches, you can't make radical changes to it unless you're prepared to alienate thousands of customers for years... so you'd darned well better get the core gameplay as close to right as possible the first time.

If you've paid good money to build a MMORPG from a very well known IP (such as Star Wars or Lord of the Rings... or Star Trek), then to make that investment pay off you must design your game's content to be attractive to the fans of that IP. And to do that, you have to start with the IP's most iconic elements and base your gameplay and world design on them -- not the other way around.

SWG had a lot of other strengths and weaknesses, which we could argue about in this thread for weeks to come. But on those two lessons, I would hope that even those of us with drastically different ideas about what constitutes "good MMORPG design" could agree.

If not... well, then the legacy of SWG as being a rotten source of game design lessons lives on. :)

I will point out one interesting fact, though: Rich Vogel and Gordon Walton, two of the guys behind Star Wars Galaxies, were hired by the Two Doctors at BioWare to create their BioWare Austin office to work specifically on what we now know to be the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMORPG.

So what lessons does it seem those guys have drawn from what happened to SWG?

If they could, what advice would they give Jack Emmert and Craig Zinkievich about making a triple-A MMORPG out of one of the Big Three licenses?

--Flatfingers

[dnsbubba]

One of SWG's biggest issues, which I and many others told them during beta, was that they didn't seem to understand their core audience.

Honestly, you can not think "Star Wars" without thinking "Jedi" right along with it. Needless to say, they didn't seem to quite get that. I must admit, however, that they seem to be correcting that with KOTOR online.

Star Trek Online has one major hurdle, and that is simply legions of Star Trek fan's who won't accept anything less than being a part of that universe.

Given that this is quite simply the only MMO I have any interest in for the foreseeable future, I have high hopes that Cryptic will pull off exactly that.