Klingon Diplomacy? Say it ain't so!

[Counselor_Zexx]

Whether its an offering of a barrel of blood wine, a gussied up Targ with a bow around it's neck or tickets to the hottest Klingon war opera, sometimes even the the most bellicose Klingon Commander must to resort to the coward's path of diplomacy to make friends and secure alliances.

I'm curious how diplomacy will play in the Federation game, but doubly so regarding the Klingon side. Any of our more vocal Klingon players care to offer input on how they'd wish to handle diplomacy (bah!) in their games?

Or is Klingon diplomacy simply the art of brinkmanship and intimidation? Put down the bat'leth and pick up the olive branch.

[Loekii]

I would see Klingon faction diplomacy being more based upon intimidation than by charisma.

I did not play the 'rebel' paradigm in MassEffect, but I would expect it to follow some of what I saw.

When I say 'Intimidation', I am not talking about brutish thuggery, but rather stone cold intimidation diplomacy. Through out history, we have seen many nations/empires us Intimidation as a negotiating technique.

So I can see the Klingo faction leaning more along those lines in the diplomatic game.

[Dahakra]

I agree with Loekii, it'll be how many warships do I send to your border kinda diplomacy :p

- Dahakra

[Prospero]

diplomacy is overrated.

[Vuk]

You'll only have 2 choices .

1 ) Submit

or the preferred method

2 ) Death

Honor to those who die in combat .

[Loekii]

diplomacy is overrated.

I actually 'enjoyed' the diplomacy sub-game in Vangard (though I agree it was not implemented well). I like that there was an alternative to 'Kill X Rats' or 'take this stick to John on the other side of the island'.

[HitmanInc13]

I think there should be a greater reward for accomplishing things diplomatically (the difficult path) rather than just gunning everyone down (the easy path). That and just because its fun, doesn't make it the right thing to do.

[Loekii]

I think there should be a greater reward for accomplishing things diplomatically (the difficult path) rather than just gunning everyone down (the easy path). That and just because its fun, doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I agree to a point.

I think that advancement should be relatively the same for combat, diplomacy, exploration, science, etc.

For example, if a diplomatic episode takes 20 mins, it should equal the same 'xp' as a combat episode that took 20 mins.

I would hate to see Min/Maxers flooding Diplomacy systems just because it is the 'faster' way to advance.

Also, if this is indeed a skill based game (as opposed to simple levels), I think Diplomacy skill should only advance in Diplomacy episodes, and combat in combat expisodes.

[StraboV2]

Well diplomacy isn't foreign to Klingons, and while the option to threaten with bared teeth loud voices and bristling weaponry is a perfectly acceptable method there is plenty of precedent for non violent diplomacy in the Klingon empire. For instance the Undiscovered Country comes to mind....the Klingons were fairly cordial and seemed offended by the notion of racism, there wasn't any chest thumping and declarations of violence. Save the veiled goading of Kirk by Chang.

Another example comes from the book "Taking Wing" in the Titan series. **SPOILER ALERT!!!** Where the Klingon Captain escorting the Titan pretends to be a drunken fool and is paid no mind until he reaches Romulas and quite literally says....well, we're here, armed to the teeth and allied with the Remans so let's talk diplomacy *sound of a loading disruptor* proving he is in fact quite cunning and not a drunkard at all leading to a deal being forced upon the Romulans on the brink of civil war which allowed a Klingon beachhead of sorts on the Reman home planet who asked for asylum. Very sneaky political maneuvering if you ask me! ....and well it's not exactly what was said no but it was the essence :P

So I would be fine with seeing diplomatic missions carried out either of these ways, either in the literal, formal dinner affair, or the subterfuge and intimidation at the right moment......and hey, lets be honest...just plain blowing something up now and then to prove a point isn't a bad way to go either :P

[TruthSeer]

I think there should be a greater reward for accomplishing things diplomatically (the difficult path) rather than just gunning everyone down (the easy path). That and just because its fun, doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I think it should depend on faction. With the Federation, yes a peaceful solution should come with a greater reward, but on the reverse side as a Klingon the battle route should come with a greater reward.

[_Pax_]

Diplomacy is not th coward's path.

It is merely choosing the ground upon which you do battle. If you think diplomatic negotiations are nothing but rooms full of wimps ... you've got a LOT to learn.

I imagine the Klingons are a big fan of "Gunboat Diplomacy" - the idea of "walk softly, but carry a BIG stick". THEIR diplomatic missions will bring the MOST firepower they can spare ... driving home the point that "to be friends with the Empire is good. To be NOT our friends would be ... very, very bad. Unless of course you just want to die with glory and honor. If that's the case, we'll HAPPILY accomodate you. How about right now?"

[TruthSeer]

Diplomacy is not th coward's path.

It is merely choosing the ground upon which you do battle. If you think diplomatic negotiations are nothing but rooms full of wimps ... you've got a LOT to learn.

I imagine the Klingons are a big fan of "Gunboat Diplomacy" - the idea of "walk softly, but carry a BIG stick". THEIR diplomatic missions will bring the MOST firepower they can spare ... driving home the point that "to be friends with the Empire is good. To be NOT our friends would be ... very, very bad. Unless of course you just want to die with glory and honor. If that's the case, we'll HAPPILY accomodate you. How about right now?"

I'm not saying its the coward's path. I'm just saying I'd imagine your Klingon superiors giving a reward for fighting a 2 on 1 fight. While Federation sups would give a greater reward for avoiding hostilities. Both would reward you for the reverse solutions but each has different universal views.

[Loekii]

I agree with _Pax_. Diplomacy is just a different battlefield. Isn't there something about it is better to win a battle before the first clash of metal?

I'm not saying its the coward's path. I'm just saying I'd imagine your Klingon superiors giving a reward for fighting a 2 on 1 fight. While Federation sups would give a greater reward for avoiding hostilities. Both would reward you for the reverse solutions but each has different universal views.

I can agree with this. However, I do think that for the sake of gameplay, there needs to be some balancing -- where Klingo High Command looks just as 'favorably' at intimidating diplomacy, instead of only considering combat of value.

[Hagon]

On the PvE side I'll do whatever advances my faction first, then my character.

As far as player to player diplomacy in a possible PvP situation goes, well it isn't happening. ;)

[_Pax_]

I agree with _Pax_. Diplomacy is just a different battlefield. Isn't there something about it is better to win a battle before the first clash of metal?
Sun Tzu: Generals who go to war, then seek to win - have already lost. VICTORIOUS generals seek to win first, THEN go to war. :D

[Atavax]

a Fedrat should be put down like a dog, to try to reason with it is below me.

[Loekii]

Sun Tzu: Generals who go to war, then seek to win - have already lost. VICTORIOUS generals seek to win first, THEN go to war. :D

Thats it. Thanks.

[BreachAndClear]

It depends. As mentioned in an episode of ST Enterprise, not all Klingons are warriors, they simply dominate the upper classes (and so they're the ones we mainly see). There are Klingon diplomats, etc. in which case Klingon diplomacy might not be that different from Federation diplomacy (the rhetoric would be different, but I don't think there would be threats). I guess it depends on whether or not the game automatically assumes Klingon players are warriors and then builds content around that assumption. If not, then perhaps Klingon players can choose to, or opt not to, pursue peaceful resolutions to missions? I don't know.

[Counselor_Zexx]

Diplomacy is not th coward's path.

It is merely choosing the ground upon which you do battle. If you think diplomatic negotiations are nothing but rooms full of wimps ... you've got a LOT to learn.

I imagine the Klingons are a big fan of "Gunboat Diplomacy" - the idea of "walk softly, but carry a BIG stick". THEIR diplomatic missions will bring the MOST firepower they can spare ... driving home the point that "to be friends with the Empire is good. To be NOT our friends would be ... very, very bad. Unless of course you just want to die with glory and honor. If that's the case, we'll HAPPILY accomodate you. How about right now?"

Fun this has been enlightening. Thanks all for the feedback.

I too see the honor in diplomacy. Particularly if the Klingons are negotiating with a race who they consider to be their military equal and with honor, the Talarians from ST:TNG come to mind. Perhaps by this time the Klingons have taken some pages from the Federation rulebook regarding alliance making versus subjugation. The Klingon alliance with the Gorn and the Naussicaans is certainly progress.

[TruthSeer]

[COLOR="Olive"]
I can agree with this. However, I do think that for the sake of gameplay, there needs to be some balancing -- where Klingo High Command looks just as 'favorably' at intimidating diplomacy, instead of only considering combat of value.

Which is why I said both would be rewarded but a battle won with odds against would reap greater rewards.

[Loekii]

Which is why I said both would be rewarded but a battle won with odds against would reap greater rewards.

I think that needs to be carefully set up though, because I certainly do not see a battle against 3 weak AI NPCs to be 'against the odds' -- and PvP is far to easy to throw/cheat.

[Rivaris]

klingon captain diplomacy 101

1. unload every weapon you have onto the hailing ship.
2. scan to make sure everything is death

ofc there will be klingons that will talk first and that is when your having a lucky day :D

[cocoa-jin]

Klingons do negotiate and therefore, can be diplomatic. Its not that Klingons cant be diplomatic, its all about how you approach the diplomatic discussion. You'd have to be straight forward, confident, not be quick to back down to intimidation and their postering. If you handle the initial back and forth correctly, the Klingon will see you as worthy and respectable, and then and only then will he receive and consider what is your negotiating.

Honestly, the whole mind-less blood lust thing people have toward Klingons is taken too far. Klingons approach initial interactions like folks on the block. You dont have throw down to gain respect, just show that you arent afraid to, that you wont just buckle under the veiled threats common in status based relations. Klingons require only you show yo have a back bone, not beat the other guy with their's.

Klingons demand a fight when you either disrespect/try to subordinate them or back down and show weakness or lack of confidence. They defend their own self-worth/status or remove those considered weak. Its all about perpetutating strength within the group and eliminating weakness....but Klingons dont just fight and kill by default, they arent that one-tracked minded.

[Crab66]

I have always believed Klingon's and any race like them would never make it off their home planet without diplomacy skills at least as good as the Federation. They don't spend all day killing each other, so they must realize that killing everyone else is not always the best solution.

I don't think the rewards for diplomacy or combat for any faction should be much different. Diplomacy is almost always the harder path.

I am not saying they don't have shorter tempers or a stronger sense of honor than most humans but I think painting them in a totally barbaric light is inaccurate. Klingons believe that if they don't die in battle they don't go to heaven....that does not mean they have to do it right now.

[Counselor_Zexx]

Klingons do negotiate and therefore, can be diplomatic. Its not that Klingons cant be diplomatic, its all about how you approach the diplomatic discussion. You'd have to be straight forward, confident, not be quick to back down to intimidation and their postering. If you handle the initial back and forth correctly, the Klingon will see you as worthy and respectable, and then and only then will he receive and consider what is your negotiating.

Honestly, the whole mind-less blood lust thing people have toward Klingons is taken too far. Klingons approach initial interactions like folks on the block. You dont have throw down to gain respect, just show that you arent afraid to, that you wont just buckle under the veiled threats common in status based relations. Klingons require only you show yo have a back bone, not beat the other guy with their's.

Klingons demand a fight when you either disrespect/try to subordinate them or back down and show weakness or lack of confidence. They defend their own self-worth/status or remove those considered weak. Its all about perpetutating strength within the group and eliminating weakness....but Klingons dont just fight and kill by default, they arent that one-tracked minded.

Bravo. Great insight. I agree. I think of modern/future era Klingons as boasting a more refined approach to initial negotiations - and some of that does indeed involve posturing and a discreet scan to see who has the biggest weapon, but part of Klingon diplomacy definitely involves this race's love to PAAAARRTAAAAY!

Blood wine! Slithery worms! Targ! Boasting! Fisticuffs!

The episode of DS9 where a house broken Worf ends up commanding a Klingon destroyer is a great episode.

[Duras]

There are Klingon mediators who act as house ambassadors.
Warriors who use diplomatic means to prevent or bring to an end house wars. They have an honourable role in keeping the structure of the empire together. I would imagine that diplomacy started for Klingon, very much like Humans, as soon as a specie says 'can you tell him'
A form of negociation starts.

I hope there is the need for diplomacy ingame. I think its needed between fellow fleets and would be good to have a communication with the alternate factions. I think this MMO may cater, better than most as we've seen because Star Trek use diplomacy alot in TNG and DS9. As there is a spectrum of players who enjoy PvP, PvE, exploration and other. May also enjoy the attempt at trying to build.
I think the game will cater for the individual first. Its up to us to create the community and talk. Use diplomacy and war to get SIZE. Alot of fleets running and doing their own thing without co-ordination is frankly idiotic unitl you see what diplomacy can bring to the enviroment. Even a ridgehead knows this.

I want good communication with all fleets/houses/clans in my faction. As many as possible, out of roleplay or in, as many I can. Preferable with good relations. I'd plan and propose, accept and follow. As should you lot. Diplomacy brings VICTORY with your own and can buy time with your adversary. :cool:

Why should the Klingon empire be beaten and herded because we should all act like head beating grunts.
Think of how many more Bloodwine breweries we can fit on nice Ex-Federation worlds...

It depends on what you want. But some may actually build like this, the other faction may take it because we dont talk.!

Diplomacy...

[Loekii]

klingon captain diplomacy 101

1. unload every weapon you have onto the hailing ship.
2. scan to make sure everything is death

ofc there will be klingons that will talk first and that is when your having a lucky day :D

Mine would be more like:

Gain upper hand to 'promote' a favorable out come
Negotiate (using intimidation, deception, etc)
Assign the Klingon that complains to scrub the external view ports from outside the ship, sans enviro-suit. Opps silly me, we already did that with all the Klingons on the ship:D
Take my 'fee'.

[Captain_Intrepid]

I know of a country which believed that intimidation was key to diplomacy, and would often threaten war if it did not get it's way (and of course carrying out that threat when people did not cave in to mere threats).

War of 1812, Spanish-American War, shifting the 45th Parallel border to the 49th Parallel, Alaskan Panhandle during the Yukon Goldrush, etc.

[thefreshjedi]

Fedcat says:

This makes me think of the expression "Eaten any good books lately?"

Klingon Diplomacy alla McDonalds.

-avery

[Duras]

I'll add, dipomacy brings peace with your allies and brings a nutral zone with the nutral. Hopeing that your allies don't sell Maccy D's

I can imagine that it wont work at the level some percieve, but its worth plugging the propaganda/parania sytle message.
I'm not a brow beater who'll look for permanent PvP, PvE. I want to be able to explore, mine, manufacture and build with the house. Do missions and try to follow the storyline if there is one.
Useing diplomacy may help me get security to do that with other houses ect,. In return for negociating payment or service. On a bigger scale as time goes perhaps.

But look at it this way, people play the Sim City series, they play global and galactic conquest games.
Whos to say this woudn't be the aim of those willing to push higher in the game to practice what they've learned using those games, just to throw a tought.
Someone could try in the vertual.

Its good that this thread brought Klingon diplomacy up.
Sorry to say - It is so... ;)

All my rp charator wants is a seat on the council ingame if there is one. Should allies be numerous enough to organise and get a location to meet on Qo'nos ingame and chat on ventrillo or teamspeak in the local enviroment , exchange where they know where Federation and Romulan fleets are for a laugh and reden the nose of the enemy. Or their housefleet has found a deposite of oar and need protection for extraction. Help with missions or pass information on discoveries and tech.
I'll be happy to serve ingame for a team,
Team member = Seat = ingame structure.
A requirement for my charactor.

I havn't the sight to see that far so will refrain from galactic conquest.

:)

[thefreshjedi]

I'll add, dipomacy brings peace with your allies and brings a nutral zone with the nutral. Hopeing that your allies don't sell Maccy D's



Just for that, I'm going to be the sole-proprietor of a chain of fast-food joints all along the Klingon/Federation Neutral Zone.

I think I'll call them "StarBooks".


/chuckleoff.

No seriously, Klingon diplomacy would be a wonderous thing. Especially if it opens up other opportunities from within the game, or advances the character interactions we have.

Just as long as it's not the WoW version of interspecies communications: KeK, ThoTaR, etc. I really hope the universal translator works.

-avery

[Duras]

Sometimes I dream to much about the virual world and it limits. :o and think forum aloud.

I didin't play those MMOs so havn't experienced the way command or aurthority was structured or grouped.

I've played one for a while though and see the benifits. The downsides and losses. But it is fun to gather on mass and play. The RPer and non RPer alike. Lagg the server...

Get folk's together and I'd love to see the Klingon and Federation factions with fleet sizes matching that of DS9s battles brought to play. Perhaps to achieve that level and keeping ahead of the game with tech, will force Klingons to talk. Maybe being diplomatic to get it. Especially if the needed oar is way way over there and not over here.
I think alot will fleets will allie losely and few will follow a single leader in any faction. It doesn't mean they cannot meet ingame and pool together certain agreed information ect,.
I dont want to be restricted to typing on others forums when you can say it direct ingame with access to ingame files, infront of them in the VR.

[Duras]

Note to self...
Target any StarBooks you see on our side of the zone... :D

[wingnutf22]

The klingons are a warlike people but they aren't animals or barbarians if they didn't have any sort of Diplomacy or the like they would have torn themselves to shreds long ago. There is precedent for it, at points in TNG the Federation and Klingons had talks and the like.

The Klingons are violent but they aren't so stupid to think it is the only answer.

[Corehaven22]

Watch Star Trek 6 the Undiscovered Country. Kilingons can and do use diplomacy if they are on their knees.

Although I hope the game doesnt force Klingons to use it if they dont want to because in my opinion Klingons tend to blow things up rather than talk it out. Kirk had to cheat on the original Kobyashi Maru (sp) scenario for this very reason.