Keeping the economy safe.

[lucenion]

My biggest concern will be, what steps the Dev's are taking to ensure that those horrible little gold farmers with all the spam and ads polluting my gaming experiance are vaporized? I've been playing MMO's for a while and in every one of them, they find a way to exploit the system turn it against itself and make lazy people rich ingame thus making themselves rich (irl). Perhaps a merit system associated with the Captian based on tasks, missions and such not trying to eliminate those pesky tribble fodder gold farmers. I have faith and look forward to the possiblity that the game holds true to the system they set up in the lore where money has little value to the Federation, and for the Klingons, Honor is everything!

[Lord_Pleximus]

Yeah I cant see money playing a large part in this game. As stated Federation and other factions put little weight into money. They tend to work more on a barter system.

Unfortunatly, whatever they implement there are going to be some gold farmers in one way or another. I dont think we can escape that. Its a huge industry overseas and brings in a large amount of money to those companies. So they are going to try and exploit. But I think Cryptic will be good about finding these people and banning the accounts.

Though thinking about it money of some form will have to be in the game for factions like the Ferangi who are all about wealth. So it should be cool to see how they build the economy and police it.

[Para199x]

From what i've read about the "credit" system, can't remember if it was speculation or actually from cryptic themselves, but anyway it seems like they would be non transferable and the only transferable "currency" as such would be cargo and maybe latinum for dealling with ferengi

[LordDave]

Regulation on SubPrime Mortgages!

[Loekii]

From what i've read about the "credit" system, can't remember if it was speculation or actually from cryptic themselves, but anyway it seems like they would be non transferable and the only transferable "currency" as such would be cargo and maybe latinum for dealling with ferengi

I think limiting what may be traded and limiting the value as well will keep gold farmers at bay. If there is no market, because there is no value in paying $30 cash for ingame items, gold sellers and farmers will move away, as there is no profit.

[Cormoran]

Mercenaries and Hackers, that's how you get rid of gold sellers.

We need the A-Team! :eek:

[Sumoben]

An exceptional GM team? =D...

[KirksOtherSon]

Unfortunatly, whatever they implement there are going to be some gold farmers in one way or another. I dont think we can escape that. Its a huge industry overseas and brings in a large amount of money to those companies. So they are going to try and exploit. But I think Cryptic will be good about finding these people and banning the accounts.

Under Cryptic, City of Heroes/Villains did a couple of things in its design which discouraged gold farmers (at least relative to other MMORPGs).

For one thing, as you suggest, they moved away from a straight-up currency system toward something called Prestige. Prestige acted like a currency in many ways, but it wasn't 1-to-1 like currency.

There were important and useful things in CoH/V you'd want in the game which Prestige simply could not "buy" for you, no matter how many millions of it you might've stored away.

Certain key things only came as a result of playing the game (gasp! heresy!), and this was an intentional design decision. The truly pathetic and desperate could, of course, buy pre-levelled characters from the farmers to gain these advantages ... but it wasn't as "cheap and easy" as in other games where you just buy a ton of coin, and apply it at will.

The second clever bit in the City of Heroes/Villains economy (the last thing Cryptic actually implemented, I believe) was a very barter-like "auction house" which intentionally favored the non-greedy, and worked against the mafia-like price-fixing and price gouging which really damages the everyday usefulness of AHs in many games (EQ2, SWG, even the usually-good LotRO).

The player economy in CoH/V worked on a "blind bid" matching system like this:

Let's say I have a gorn-made donut (http://flickr.com/photos/karya_sac/517391072/) for sale, and I figure I can let it go cheap (because I have a dozen of them), even though they're in high demand right now. I just want to make a reasonable amount and put my excess out where other players can make use of it.

Under the CoH/V system, I can see what people have successfully bid for the last few gorn-made donuts sold (as a guide); I can also see how many people have open bids on gorn-made donuts (let's say 200); and I can see how many people are currently selling gorn-made donuts (let's say 4).

Now, I get to choose how much I want to ask for my gorn-made donut -- the sales history says they've been going for 1,000,000 quatloos today, but I figure "I'm no Ferengi, I just want to get it out there so people can upgrade their starship replicators with it" and I set my sell price at a mere 500 quatloos.

Of the 5 people now selling gorn-made donuts, it turns out that my asking price is the lowest, so the market automatically sells my gorn-made donut to the highest bidder in the queue.

The market takes a cut, but I receive the rest. If the highest bidder was offering 2,000,000 quatloos, I receive almost all of this.

Because I didn't try to gouge the market system, I actually end up making far more quatloos than I asked for. I could've asked for the going rate of 1,000,000, but my offer might well have sat on the market for days, unsold, as lower sellers were prioritized to higher bidders.

Sure, if I waited, I'd almost certainly get my asking price eventually, as gorn-made donuts are an in-demand item -- but you can actually make _more_ by not trying to inflate the market.

I often made double the market price simply by selling in-demand things for cheap that I had no need of ...

And -- once again -- the "currency" in CoH/V wasn't like standard MMO gold. It had its usefulness, for sure, but it couldn't get you everything you would want. You had to play the farking game! :eek: What a shock, I know!

Anyway, I cite these examples from the CoH/V economy only to show that Cryptic can be pretty innovative in designing systems which sidestep the usual flaws and problems in game economy.

I don't expect that Star Trek Online will follow the CoH/V pattern exactly, but based on what we've already heard from Cryptic, I do expect another "nonstandard MMO economy" designed to encourage playing the game, as opposed to loot hording or buying from gold farming sites.

My opinions, anyway,

KOS

[Lord_Pleximus]

Nice post Kirksotherson. Thats an insteresting system they added. Wish there was something like that in WoW :P Prices are getting out of hand.

I guess it will come down to what kind of wares we can make in game. What kind of loot can be "sold" off/traded.

Sorta off topic I think but what about banks? If there is some type of item system then where can i store all this stuff? I know a ships cargo bay could hold some of it. But it would be nice to have an off ship secure location to store my stuff so it isnt destroyed.

[Sumoben]

Nice post Kirksotherson. Thats an insteresting system they added. Wish there was something like that in WoW :P Prices are getting out of hand.

I guess it will come down to what kind of wares we can make in game. What kind of loot can be "sold" off/traded.

Sorta off topic I think but what about banks? If there is some type of item system then where can i store all this stuff? I know a ships cargo bay could hold some of it. But it would be nice to have an off ship secure location to store my stuff so it isnt destroyed.

Likely you could deposit stuff on your nearest starbase, like EVE.

[JacobFlowers]

Under Cryptic, City of Heroes/Villains did a couple of things in its design which discouraged gold farmers (at least relative to other MMORPGs).

For one thing, as you suggest, they moved away from a straight-up currency system toward something called Prestige. Prestige acted like a currency in many ways, but it wasn't 1-to-1 like currency.

There were important and useful things in CoH/V you'd want in the game which Prestige simply could not "buy" for you, no matter how many millions of it you might've stored away.

Certain key things only came as a result of playing the game (gasp! heresy!), and this was an intentional design decision. The truly pathetic and desperate could, of course, buy pre-levelled characters from the farmers to gain these advantages ... but it wasn't as "cheap and easy" as in other games where you just buy a ton of coin, and apply it at will.

The second clever bit in the City of Heroes/Villains economy (the last thing Cryptic actually implemented, I believe) was a very barter-like "auction house" which intentionally favored the non-greedy, and worked against the mafia-like price-fixing and price gouging which really damages the everyday usefulness of AHs in many games (EQ2, SWG, even the usually-good LotRO).

The player economy in CoH/V worked on a "blind bid" matching system like this:

Let's say I have a gorn-made donut (http://flickr.com/photos/karya_sac/517391072/) for sale, and I figure I can let it go cheap (because I have a dozen of them), even though they're in high demand right now. I just want to make a reasonable amount and put my excess out where other players can make use of it.

Under the CoH/V system, I can see what people have successfully bid for the last few gorn-made donuts sold (as a guide); I can also see how many people have open bids on gorn-made donuts (let's say 200); and I can see how many people are currently selling gorn-made donuts (let's say 4).

Now, I get to choose how much I want to ask for my gorn-made donut -- the sales history says they've been going for 1,000,000 quatloos today, but I figure "I'm no Ferengi, I just want to get it out there so people can upgrade their starship replicators with it" and I set my sell price at a mere 500 quatloos.

Of the 5 people now selling gorn-made donuts, it turns out that my asking price is the lowest, so the market automatically sells my gorn-made donut to the highest bidder in the queue.

The market takes a cut, but I receive the rest. If the highest bidder was offering 2,000,000 quatloos, I receive almost all of this.

Because I didn't try to gouge the market system, I actually end up making far more quatloos than I asked for. I could've asked for the going rate of 1,000,000, but my offer might well have sat on the market for days, unsold, as lower sellers were prioritized to higher bidders.

Sure, if I waited, I'd almost certainly get my asking price eventually, as gorn-made donuts are an in-demand item -- but you can actually make _more_ by not trying to inflate the market.

I often made double the market price simply by selling in-demand things for cheap that I had no need of ...

And -- once again -- the "currency" in CoH/V wasn't like standard MMO gold. It had its usefulness, for sure, but it couldn't get you everything you would want. You had to play the farking game! :eek: What a shock, I know!

Anyway, I cite these examples from the CoH/V economy only to show that Cryptic can be pretty innovative in designing systems which sidestep the usual flaws and problems in game economy.

I don't expect that Star Trek Online will follow the CoH/V pattern exactly, but based on what we've already heard from Cryptic, I do expect another "nonstandard MMO economy" designed to encourage playing the game, as opposed to loot hording or buying from gold farming sites.

My opinions, anyway,

KOS


Very informative oh progeny of Kirk, and well written. My commendations.

If by chance you do have a supply of Gorn-made donuts once STO comes out, I really would like to make that available to my crew, so let me know, and I'll send you something worthwhile and fair for a trade.

[Dogbertious]

Damnit, now I want a Gorn-made donut......they sound good.....

I think there is something else we must consider; Replicators. The ability to produce almost anything. The only real costs involved are a high energy cost, and the fact that a 'real' Gorn-made donut will taste superior to a 'replicated' Gorn-made donut.

In game terms, replicators remove much of the need for currency; you don't need to grind money to purchase things, as they can be replicated. You won't need to gather materials for crafting, as there are replicators to do that for us. If they are too large for your ship to replicate, then a station can usually replicate them using (oddly enough) an industrial replicator. I reckon the only constraint that should be implemented is a queue system. If there are several vessels in orbit of a station in need of goods that can only be replicated by an industrial-scale replicator, the station will prioritise its use based on the importance of the item needed (eg, if I needed a new EPS relay, I would have priority over a captain wanting a giant tank of red paint), and the 'Prestige' of the Captains. Basically, the 'Prestige' would act as the Captain asking a favour/ pulling strings to get what he wants/needs faster.

I don't think there will be much trouble from 'gold'-sellers.

[LunaticFringer]

Just use an ad from Voyage Home with Kirk on it.

With a Gold Farmer exclaiming, "You don't use in game money!?!"

And a smiling Kirk saying, "Well, we don't..." :cool:

[Revod]

I rather liked the CoH system and hope they put something like that in STO! It was a well thought out approach and KoS was right...you could make a fortune by NOT being greedy. I sincerely hope Cryptic is looking into this type of auction house system :) As for the gold farmer problem...unless whatever form(s) of currency used will be only transferable between toons on the same account, there will be those farming and selling it (at least at the beginning).

As a community, getting rid of gold farmers is a matter of sticking to principles and not buying from them...period. They make no sales, they move on to other games. I am hoping STO garners the support and subscriptions of the cerebral fan base that has kept Star Trek hallowed throughout the years. We must stick to the ideals and police ourselves...this is part of what being a mature and thoughtful Star Trek fan is all about. Star Trek is set in the future, but its about us...who we are...and how we are. We CAN live the ideals of Star Trek today...if we care enough to stand up for those ideals and embrace the spirit of what Star Trek stands for. If we do that...gold farmer don't stand a chance!

[Sarile]

gold farmers? You must mean Wall Street and all the banks looking for a handout

[Terrani]

gold farmers? You must mean Wall Street and all the banks looking for a handout

No no, I believe you are referring to Gold Diggers. Gold farmers are much more sinister. Ni Hao everyone!

[Loekii]

From what i've read about the "credit" system, can't remember if it was speculation or actually from cryptic themselves, but anyway it seems like they would be non transferable and the only transferable "currency" as such would be cargo and maybe latinum for dealling with ferengi

I agree.

By limiting what maybe 'traded' and mitigating the value of such traded items, you reduce Goldfarming.

Goldfarming only works when Customers are willing to pay Cash for Gold, or Farmed material. If such material has little game value, Customers will not pay money for it, and thus the GoldFarmers are out of Business.

Sure they will shift to things like 'powerleveling' and what not, but those things are vastly easier to police, and as such, are far less prevalent.

[Sumoben]

No no, I believe you are referring to Gold Diggers. Gold farmers are much more sinister. Ni Hao everyone!

=.= Lol, I find that somewhat...... erm.... Stereotypical. I'm chinese. d= But I don't gold farm....... Then again, I'm also American, but thats besides the point. :D

[Moryan_Sorg]

I agree.

By limiting what maybe 'traded' and mitigating the value of such traded items, you reduce Goldfarming.

Goldfarming only works when Customers are willing to pay Cash for Gold, or Farmed material. If such material has little game value, Customers will not pay money for it, and thus the GoldFarmers are out of Business.

Sure they will shift to things like 'powerleveling' and what not, but those things are vastly easier to police, and as such, are far less prevalent.

As long as there is something to be gained in the game, there will always be someone wanting to sell it. It becomes easier if one character can gain and then give to another player in game. But as you have pointed out, sometimes the gain is just leveling a character and then giving the character back to the owner.

This game may be somewhat unique in that most of what is to be gained by the player is the experience of playing the game. This may be an unrealistic and romanticized view, but you can't sell an in game experience (well, cryptic can indirectly by putting out an awesome game!).

Personally, I'd also like to see a learning curve be very important. Start out insanely simple for those people who just want to tool around and RP. But, allow for really complex activities. We might see people paying for classes on effective combat instead of paying for power leveling. IMO that is much more tolerable.