View Full Version : Reinventing the Warp Scale, Again.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 07:45 AM
Do you think that Cryptic should reinvent the warp scale for STO? Since typically, we don't want to spend the better part of a day, let alone a week traveling to say, DS9 from Earth, with a smaller less capable ship.
Thibor
03-04-2009, 07:58 AM
Travel times in this game will likely mirror travel times in the shows ... the "speed of plot". Whereas you were told it would take three days at warp factor 9 for them to reach starbase 219, that show didn't air on Monday and end at that point with you tuning in on Thursday after they arrived. You went to commercial break, probably saw a Geico or Capital One ad, came back and they were there.
Likewise, travel times in this game will likely be at the "speed of fun". And while fun is an ambiguous term because it will be different things to different people, Cryptic will hopefully strike a happy medium.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 07:59 AM
Travel times in this game will likely mirror travel times in the shows ... the "speed of plot". Whereas you were told it would take three days at warp factor 9 for them to reach starbase 219, that show didn't air on Monday and end at that point with you tuning in on Thursday after they arrived. You went to commercial break, probably saw a Geico or Capital One ad, came back and they were there.
Likewise, travel times in this game will likely be at the "speed of fun". And while fun is an ambiguous term because it will be different things to different people, Cryptic will hopefully strike a happy medium.
Well, I believe it should at least be realistic, I honestly don't believe that majority of players would want, instant gratification in travel, as that isn't very Star Trekky, more... TV magic.
TruthSeer
03-04-2009, 07:59 AM
Also remember there will be some kind of slipstream implementation.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:00 AM
Also remember there will be some kind of slipstream implementation.
Oh.. Joy. :rolleyes:
Lord_Pleximus
03-04-2009, 08:03 AM
Well maybe it will be like EVE or maybe Freelancer. Travel time within a system could take up to 30 min as you cant warp in a system so you have to rely on impulse power. Once outside the system if you warped towards a target it could take several hours. But if they do have slipstream in the game then you could opt to take that which would shorten a 3 hour flight into 10 min maybe.
EVE and Freelancer both have jump gates that launch you to far away points with a load screen. In Freelancer you can just use travel lanes that increase your speed enough to cut down travel time.
Mjoellnir
03-04-2009, 08:04 AM
In the alternative All Good Things-Timeline Admiral Riker ordered the Enterprise to Warp 13. It seems they somehow changed the warp scale at that time, because in the actual one that's not possible. Warp 10 is being everywhere at once, and "trans"warp is something around Warp 9.9999 while quantum slipstream is somewhere around Warp 9.99999. In the TOS-scale Warp 13 was possible, but it doesn't make sense to reintroduce that one. So maybe they just invented some way to describe the different levels of transwarp.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:05 AM
Well maybe it will be like EVE or maybe Freelancer. Travel time within a system could take up to 30 min as you cant warp in a system so you have to rely on impulse power. Once outside the system if you warped towards a target it could take several hours. But if they do have slipstream in the game then you could opt to take that which would shorten a 3 hour flight into 10 min maybe.
EVE and Freelancer both have jump gates that launch you to far away points with a load screen. In Freelancer you can just use travel lanes that increase your speed enough to cut down travel time.
Well I know EVE and Freelancer had jump gates, but thats not very Star Trek, now is it? lol.
Though Slipstream makes more sense, its implementation makes me think it would look a lot like Stargate's hyperdrive.
Charlie_M
03-04-2009, 08:05 AM
I think i remember hearing something either on an interview or the forums about not taking the actual warp time to go to destinations and possibly speed it up
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:06 AM
In the alternative All Good Things-Timeline Admiral Riker ordered the Enterprise to Warp 13. It seems they somehow changed the warp scale at that time, because in the actual one that's not possible. Warp 10 is being everywhere at once, and "trans"warp is something around Warp 9.9999 while quantum slipstream is somewhere around Warp 9.99999. In the TOS-scale Warp 13 was possible, but it doesn't make sense to reintroduce that one. So maybe they just invented some way to describe the different levels of transwarp.
Warp 13 in All Good Things never actually happened, it was all a Romulan mind game..
As for TOS, the warp scale was reintroduced with TNG and a new more complex equation was used.
TruthSeer
03-04-2009, 08:09 AM
Well I know EVE and Freelancer had jump gates, but thats not very Star Trek, now is it? lol.
Though Slipstream makes more sense, its implementation makes me think it would look a lot like Stargate's hyperdrive.
Well if they were to implement slipstream gates? Kinda like warp gates just faster. Or even warp gates, with technology stolen from the borg. I mean the Voyager went from the Delta Quadrant to Earth in what a couple of minutes?
Lord_Pleximus
03-04-2009, 08:12 AM
True Janeway and 7 could have scaned the tunnel system the borg used to navigate long distances and adapted it to work for the Federation. Maybe the Midus Array was worked on further and was able to make wormholes. :D
I'm also ok with travel times as long as we have something to do while we travel these long distances. Mini games or puzzles or active scans of near by systems. Something.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:13 AM
Well if they were to implement slipstream gates? Kinda like warp gates just faster. Or even warp gates, with technology stolen from the borg. I mean the Voyager went from the Delta Quadrant to Earth in what a couple of minutes?
Well for one thing, that was the Borg, and it was a Transwarp Conduit, something that Borg cubes could enter at any time they wanted to, The Borg needed a way for its smaller ships to create and or enter a Transwarp Conduit.
Mjoellnir
03-04-2009, 08:14 AM
Warp 13 in All Good Things never actually happened, it was all a Romulan mind game.. .
There was no Romulan mindgame, you think of Future Imperfect (where an alien trapped Riker in a Holodeck because it was alone, when Riker saw through the simulated future Enterprise it was changed it to a Romulan holodeck). All Good Things ist the last episode of TNG where Picard is shifted through past, present and future by Q. In the future the Enterprise-D is able to achieve Warp 13.
TruthSeer
03-04-2009, 08:15 AM
Well for one thing, that was the Borg, and it was a Transwarp Conduit, something that Borg cubes could enter at any time they wanted to, The Borg needed a way for its smaller ships to create and or enter a Transwarp Conduit.
You sure? Because Voyager is a lot smaller than a cube and I don't remember it having a problem. Though its been awhile.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:17 AM
You sure? Because Voyager is a lot smaller than a cube and I don't remember it having a problem. Though its been awhile.
What I was trying to say was, that the Borg Cubes have their own transwarp drives, while smaller ships, had to use the transwarp conduits, the entrances being transwarp aperture (and exits).
I mean, the opening had to be somewhere..
Lord_Pleximus
03-04-2009, 08:19 AM
I'm going with wormhole generators. I know they were trying to develop these tools in the series. I know people on Earth in rl are looking into this. So strap on an experimental device and bam 400 lightyears in seconds!
TruthSeer
03-04-2009, 08:19 AM
What I was trying to say was, that the Borg Cubes have their own transwarp drives, while smaller ships, had to use the transwarp conduits, the entrances being transwarp aperture (and exits).
I mean, the opening had to be somewhere..
Oh ya, that I know. And thats the tech I was thinking Starfleet could duplicate. The stationary gates, not the on board tech.
Mjoellnir
03-04-2009, 08:20 AM
What I was trying to say was, that the Borg Cubes have their own transwarp drives, while smaller ships, had to use the transwarp conduits, the entrances being transwarp aperture (and exits).
I mean, the opening had to be somewhere..
Borg scouts and spheres were transwarp-capable too, but the stationary conduits made them even faster.
TruthSeer
03-04-2009, 08:20 AM
I'm going with wormhole generators. I know they were trying to develop these tools in the series. I know people on Earth in rl are looking into this. So strap on an experimental device and bam 400 lightyears in seconds!
Which then promptly shorts out and oh look, another Voyager. :)
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:22 AM
Oh ya, that I know. And thats the tech I was thinking Starfleet could duplicate. The stationary gates, not the on board tech.
Yeah, but they would need to be kept secret, like how the Borg had it, otherwise you'll have cloaking Klingons sending multiple fleets in there and end up surrounding Earth. Besides, the Borg needed the particles from that Nebula to power the Transwarp conduits too, I believe, looked like there was a core to the nebula, like a planetary core, filled with a dense amount of particles that I'm sure the Borg could harvest.
Moryan_Sorg
03-04-2009, 08:26 AM
From the FAQ:
Q: Will there be realistic travel times in space?
A: Travel times will be semi-realistic, with a focus on fun. Space is big, and it can take a very long time to travel great distances. That travel time can be impractically long. We will introduce transwarp conduit technology and worm holes to allow players to travel to distant sectors of the galaxy without needing days or weeks of gameplay to do so.
See my avatar for more information :)
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:27 AM
From the FAQ:
Q: Will there be realistic travel times in space?
A: Travel times will be semi-realistic, with a focus on fun. Space is big, and it can take a very long time to travel great distances. That travel time can be impractically long. We will introduce transwarp conduit technology and worm holes to allow players to travel to distant sectors of the galaxy without needing days or weeks of gameplay to do so.
See my avatar for more information :)
Unfortunately, some of us, like myself, still see Warp as an Iconic and very very important part of Star Trek.
Thibor
03-04-2009, 08:31 AM
Well, I believe it should at least be realistic, I honestly don't believe that majority of players would want, instant gratification in travel, as that isn't very Star Trekky, more... TV magic.
"Realistic" travel times will at best be relative to the scale they set.
They've mentioned things like transwarp conduits or some such. Quite likely there will be those type of "gate" mechanics and travel will work in some similar fashion to games like WoW in which there are travel hubs/nodes which node-to-node travel is relatively quick and then you have your more standard travel modes available to get to your specific destination once you're at that zone, or sector likely in STO.
And with regards to "isn't very Star Trekky" ...actually speed of plot/fun is VERY Star Trekky ... just not very real. ST books, shows and movies all move at that pace. And a game focused on the fun aspects of the captains' roles we see in those various media is smart to move at the same pace.
If you're expecting "Sims 2409: The ST Experience" where the game experience is diluted with the day-to-day tedium of being a captain, I suspect this game won't deliver that for you. SoE tried that with SWG and in many peoples' opinions, it's one reason the game failed and is something Bioware is looking to correct with their MMO based on the IP.
Lord_Pleximus
03-04-2009, 08:31 AM
Maybe they will add random wormholes that dont have an anchor point on the other side. So like the wormhole in Next Gen and that was revisited in Voyager. Go in one way and bam random drop point in the galaxy.
Now about that FAQ I thought that we wouldnt see the other quadrants for a while and that we would be more focused on the Alpha Beta area since its still unexplored for a large part. I dont know how I feel if we can just jump to the Delta qaudrant right off the bat =\
They all ready have this worked out with Trans Warp Gates.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 08:33 AM
"Realistic" travel times will at best be relative to the scale they set.
They've mentioned things like transwarp conduits or some such. Quite likely there will be those type of "gate" mechanics and travel will work in some similar fashion to games like WoW in which there are travel hubs/nodes which node-to-node travel is relatively quick and then you have your more standard travel modes available to get to your specific destination once you're at that zone, or sector likely in STO.
And with regards to "isn't very Star Trekky" ...actually speed of plot/fun is VERY Star Trekky ... just not very real. ST books, shows and movies all move at that pace. And a game focused on the fun aspects of the captains' roles we see in those various media is smart to move at the same pace.
If you're expecting "Sims 2409: The ST Experience" where the game experience is diluted with the day-to-day tedium of being a captain, I suspect this game won't deliver that for you. SoE tried that with SWG and in many peoples' opinions, it's one reason the game failed and is something Bioware is looking to correct with their MMO based on the IP.
Actually, I'm looking more for say, SFC4, A more immersive, online, big battles... I think you get the picture.
From the FAQ:
Q: Will there be realistic travel times in space?
A: Travel times will be semi-realistic, with a focus on fun. Space is big, and it can take a very long time to travel great distances. That travel time can be impractically long. We will introduce transwarp conduit technology and worm holes to allow players to travel to distant sectors of the galaxy without needing days or weeks of gameplay to do so.
See my avatar for more information :)
All boo you go to it before I did lol.
_Pax_
03-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Also remember there will be some kind of slipstream implementation.
Actually an adaptation of the Borg transwarp-conduit network, for long-distance travel.
Given that the size of the Federation has been cited at up to 10,000 light years in diameter, and that it would take a single starship, under it's own power, AT WARP NINE, around three years to cross that distance ... yeah, um, "start building those transwarp highways, already!"
Kenderoth
03-04-2009, 09:29 AM
I thought they said their would be slip space travel and transwarp conduits and wormholes in the comi-con presentation.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 09:32 AM
Unfortunately, some of us, like myself, still see Warp as an Iconic and very very important part of Star Trek.
^................................................. .
Para199x
03-04-2009, 11:09 AM
i believe that what they said was there would be some transwarp conduits along busy routes but any exploration would require warp travel so don't worry warp speed will still be an important part of STO :P
Grybeard
03-04-2009, 12:18 PM
I say they just institute "Ludicrous Speed". For the "Fun Factor".. :P
SelorKiith
03-04-2009, 01:11 PM
Well, I believe it should at least be realistic,
Oh joy! Yes! I'd really like to spend weeks and months to fly to the other side of the Federation!
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 01:31 PM
Oh joy! Yes! I'd really like to spend weeks and months to fly to the other side of the Federation!
Well, if you go more in depth into what I was saying, Reinvent the Warp scale and push back warp 9 to say warp 6. It would still be more "realistic" to Trek, and you'll still be warping around the galaxy, just at much faster speeds.
_Pax_
03-04-2009, 01:42 PM
Oh joy! Yes! I'd really like to spend years to fly to the other side of the Federation at warp 9!
Fixed that for you.
No, seriously. Three years at Warp 9.6, 5 years at warp 9.0 (IIRC). The Federation is BIG.:eek:
EDIT:
Sumoben ... you simply do not grasp the vast scale of things, I think.
The Federation is as much as 10,000 light years across.
Even if we did redefine the Warp Scale, so that warp speeds become "Warp Factor to the Fourth Power" in relation to the speed of light...?
Warp 9.99 - which is mind-bogglingly fast at 9960 times the speed of light - would still leave you stuck with (just) OVER A YEAR of travel time to cross from edge to opposite edge of the Federation. Assuming, mind, that you could plot a directly straight line while avoiding all obstacles, and did not have to account for things like galactic rotation ...!
Lord_Pleximus
03-04-2009, 01:47 PM
Just think of the trip back to sell the stuff you loot Oo.
In 3 years who knows what could have happened to your homeworld. :) Plus you have to remember that no star ship goes in a straight line you gotta zig zag and explore all those random space doo hickeys.
Vorador
03-04-2009, 02:51 PM
I just hope that in the neutral zone you are restricted to only Warp. No transwarp or wormholes. It should take time for someone who is getting attacked to get reinforcements.
Shakari
03-04-2009, 03:28 PM
I still like the "All Good Things..." Warp 13, I believe. Just say we can go above 10, but not 10!
I would like to see a captain go "Warp Factor Pie." I think the CPU would just explode.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 03:30 PM
I still like the "All Good Things..." Warp 13, I believe. Just say we can go above 10, but not 10!
I would like to see a captain go "Warp Factor Pie." I think the CPU would just explode.
I think it'll explode into a burst of blueberries or apple, or something..
I think you meant Warp Factor Pi :D
Shakari
03-04-2009, 03:34 PM
Yes, sorry, had cake on my mind.
...LIE!
It would be interesting to impliment Roddenberry's Andromeda's slipstream into Roddenberry's Star Trek as faster than transwarp. Make it into a minigame! If you fail, chance to find something new! Like the inside of a star...
Ouch.
OR!!!! Have the travel from system to system "fun time load screen" be commercials. Reduce any possible monthly fee and still be geared like an episode of Star Trek!
matt4tay
03-04-2009, 03:35 PM
Just thought i would give links to the Warp Scale and Trans-Warp Scale.
Warp Speed Chart:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8172/warpspeedchart.jpg
Transwarp Speed Chart:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3662/transwarpspeedchart.jpg
I thought i would post this as i noticed a post about Riker ordering Warp 13 in "All Good Things.."
As we know, in warp terms its impossible, but with Transwarp terms it is.
You'll get the idea when you see the charts.
Sumoben
03-04-2009, 03:35 PM
Yes, sorry, had cake on my mind.
...LIE!
It would be interesting to impliment Roddenberry's Andromeda's slipstream into Roddenberry's Star Trek as faster than transwarp. Make it into a minigame! If you fail, chance to find something new! Like the inside of a star...
Ouch.
Well in Voyager, there was Quantum Slipstream technology.
Shakari
03-04-2009, 03:37 PM
Just thought i would give links to the Warp Scale and Trans-Warp Scale.
Warp Speed Chart:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8172/warpspeedchart.jpg
Transwarp Speed Chart:
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3662/transwarpspeedchart.jpg
I thought i would post this as i noticed a post about Riker ordering Warp 13 in "All Good Things.."
As we know, in warp terms its impossible, but with Transwarp terms it is.
You'll get the idea when you see the charts.
Dang, some people have WAYYYYY too much time on their hands...
Also, check my edited post at the top of this page.
matt4tay
03-05-2009, 06:08 AM
Dang, some people have WAYYYYY too much time on their hands...
Also, check my edited post at the top of this page.
I found them on a wiki somewhere. lol