Ship control learning curve.

[Hagon]

I've been thinking a lot about this for awhile now. Mainly trying to settle on what I'd like to see as far as how complicated ship control is, and how easily one will be able to pick it up vs how hard it will be to master.

It's a fine balance I think.

Make it too easy and you're going to turn off a lot of players that like to believe that part of the skill in captaining a ship should be learning the ropes, so to speak.

Make it too complicated and you drive away the more casual player that just wants to use their ship mainly as a tool for exploring and such.

I know that although I don't mind having to spend some time mastering some things in these games, and I want to be competitive at the highest level of game play, there can be a point where I'm wondering if it's worth my time, or if I want to spend that time.

I wonder how it'll be for STO? What's Cryptic's thinking on this? I haven't really seen anything much said along these lines, so if I missed some info, someone please link it by all means.

[TruthSeer]

For one hopefully the controls are customizable.

Secondly I'm kind of hoping (in terms of movement) for simple Bridge Commander style controls: w = down pitch, s = up, a/d = right/left turn, q/e = roll, mouse 1 = phasers/disruptors, mouse 2 = torpedoes. And then form there you can get into the complicated stuff like rerouting power and such.

[Interdictor]

As long as it's not quite as "fiddly" as the SFC series I'll be happy. I really don't want to see another "circle-of-doom-fest". Now, SCF3 was a bit more accessible than the previous 2, but I think it would still be a bit much for those new to gaming.

I've never played Legacy or Bridge Commander, but from what I've seen - those two games are a bit more like we see in the shows and movies (at least in terms of combat and maneuvers - even if they seem a bit fast).

[TruthSeer]

As long as it's not quite as "fiddly" as the SFC series I'll be happy. I really don't want to see another "circle-of-doom-fest". Now, SCF3 was a bit more accessible than the previous 2, but I think it would still be a bit much for those new to gaming.

I've never played Legacy or Bridge Commander, but from what I've seen - those two games are a bit more like we see in the shows and movies (at least in terms of combat and maneuvers - even if they seem a bit fast).

See this is the problem I'm having trying to picture ship battles in STO.

On one hand we the devs saying that it won't be like "dog fighting" and more like "tall ship" battles.

Then on the other we have the video which shows (in the part with the borg battle) ships flying around in an almost Bridge Commander style and also the knowledge that some ships would get slaughtered in a game based solely on tall ship style fighting. Ex: a saber class wasn't built to just stand toe to toe with an opponent and duke it out.

[LordEnn]

I'd prefer to devote time to acquainting myself with a reasonably complicated system. Extreme oversimplification of the controls, in my opinion, would be worse.

[Interdictor]

See this is the problem I'm having trying to picture ship battles in STO.

On one hand we the devs saying that it won't be like "dog fighting" and more like "tall ship" battles.

Then on the other we have the video which shows (in the part with the borg battle) ships flying around in an almost Bridge Commander style and also the knowledge that some ships would get slaughtered in a game based solely on tall ship style fighting. Ex: a saber class wasn't built to just stand toe to toe with an opponent and duke it out.
There's always evasive maneuvers and electronic warfare - except stuff like EW should probably be mostly automatic and just represent a penalty to hit your opponent - I really wouldn't want to be worrying about it in the middle of a battle.

And from the game trailer - they ships seemed to be moving in a very TV/Movie-like fashion.

[CherryTerri]

I cannot see ships in the future standing still and getting shot at. I mean, once you disable a ship don't you strafe around fast, firing until it goes kaboom?

I personally hope for NPC control of the ship. I have difficulty steering and firing at the same time ... tooo much like a FPS for my tastes hah.

[Interdictor]

I'd prefer to devote time to acquainting myself with a reasonably complicated system. Extreme oversimplification of the controls, in my opinion, would be worse.

Seeing as how one of Cryptic's stated goals was to make this game as accessible to as many people as possible - even to people who haven't really played video games or MMOs before - a complicated system is unlikely.

That said - that doesn't mean there couldn't be some depth to combat.

[USS_Parallax]

Movement should NEVER have a learning curve. It should be as easy as possible. This game is aiming for the casual market so I doubt they'd make a complicated and hard to learn system.

It should be just as easy as sitting down and playing.

[Azurian]

I'm pretty sure that the controls would be easy enough that it would only take a few minutes for an inexperienced player (never played MMORPGs) to learn and them taking a day to fully master the basics. Then it shouldn't take more than a day or so to perfect PvE combat.

This is pretty much the same in every MMORPG I've played.

[Interdictor]

I cannot see ships in the future standing still and getting shot at. I mean, once you disable a ship don't you strafe around fast, firing until it goes kaboom?

I think the "tall ships" comment may just have been made to differentiate it from the other extreme - that of combat like space dogfighters. The devs said it would be more like tall ship battles rather than dogfighting. Thus - a lot like what we have seen in the shows. Then again ST ships can certainly maneuver (especially tiny ships like B'Rels and Defiants), but we generally do not see "furballs" in space.

personally hope for NPC control of the ship. I have difficulty steering and firing at the same time ... tooo much like a FPS for my tastes hah.
I beleive the devs have stated manual control - we will be flying our ships, just not like a space fighter.

[LordEnn]

Seeing as how one of Cryptic's stated goals was to make this game as accessible to as many people as possible - even to people who haven't really played video games or MMOs before - a complicated system is unlikely.

I wouldn't want something that is excessively demanding, but it would be better to have additional controls available for people with an interest in specificity.

[neomarsala]

I hate games with complicated controls, so I hope the controls are pretty intuitive. A good tutorial at the beginning will help, but I should be able to figure out the basics in a few minutes on my own.

[Hagon]

I guess I should have been more clear, but to me ship control encompasses everything involved with captaining one's ship. Not just movement.

[Osirisren]

I think that along with the game being able to controled by the keybord and mouse they sould also make the game Voice interactive. I think that it would make the game feel more like startrek if you could yell "Hard to port!!" into a mic and your ship would do it. They could relece the speach recanision software along with the game. Mite be cool...any thoughts?

[Traveller]

good post here Hagon.
I have no idead how its going to be aslong as i can figure it in time I'll be happy with any approach one thinks!
Probs have a real thick instuction manual that no 1 will read telling us how to do it.lol:D

[Hagon]

Remember the male motto. "An instruction manual is only the manufacturers opinion on how it should go together or work". :p


I know one thing I'm hoping for is there not being excessive number crunching involved. I don't mind learning nuances,but I want to relax as I'm doing it.

[Desterion]

That's why you get into beta, to learn how to play it.

[Rgoodfel]

I do enjoy Eve's learning curve (http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0803/LearningCurve.jpg) I would think for this game chess' learning curve would be better. Easy to learn and very hard to master.

[TruthSeer]

I do enjoy Eve's learning curve (http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0803/LearningCurve.jpg) I would think for this game chess' learning curve would be better. Easy to learn and very hard to master.

Haha, I love that.

[Markakis]

I was wondering the same thing until I saw this.

"Ask Cryptic (January 29,2009)"

"Would you be able to use the joystick to control your characters and starship?"

"You should be able to do that. All of the commands may not map, depending on what sort of joystick you have but, since the game is being built for the PC as well as the console, you should be able to hook up a joystick to your PC and play that way."


so was hoping that I could program all the commands in my saitek's x52 joystick and Saitek’s PZ31A Pro Gamer Command Pad and helping me with the learning curve. well we all will find out as soon we get in the game :D:D:D

[osena]

i liked the star trek legacey controlls i could see us controlling the ships like that

[DanSeale]

I've been thinking a lot about this for awhile now. Mainly trying to settle on what I'd like to see as far as how complicated ship control is, and how easily one will be able to pick it up vs how hard it will be to master.

It's a fine balance I think.

Make it too easy and you're going to turn off a lot of players that like to believe that part of the skill in captaining a ship should be learning the ropes, so to speak.

Make it too complicated and you drive away the more casual player that just wants to use their ship mainly as a tool for exploring and such.

I know that although I don't mind having to spend some time mastering some things in these games, and I want to be competitive at the highest level of game play, there can be a point where I'm wondering if it's worth my time, or if I want to spend that time.

I wonder how it'll be for STO? What's Cryptic's thinking on this? I haven't really seen anything much said along these lines, so if I missed some info, someone please link it by all means.

Hagon..

Good subject bud. Here are a few commands I'd like to see.

1. Basic weapons: phasers / disrupters
A. Press PF-1 key to select weappons group (weapons groups can be pre selected) .. then to fire (1-9)
B. Select power (1/2 - 3/4 - full )
C. Press "S" to select target (or simular key) (targeting menu if available comes up)
D. Press "Z" to fire (or other key)
E. Set up own personal "hot keys"
.
2. Keys for movement
A. Directional arrows on right hand side of key board
B. other "hot keys" such as "A-S-D-F-E" (Just as example)
C. other selected hot keys as desired
.
3. Keys for power management
A. Press PF-2 for power management
B. manage weapons
C. manage ships systems (life support and shields)
D. Other
.
4. Keys for communication:
A. PF-5 for inter fleet
B. PF- 6 for NPC ship commands (brings up menu 1-10 for commands)
C. these are seperated from guild chat boxes
This is all I have time for right now .. I'll pop back in later.

Yes . I love to manage my ship ....

edit:

OH ! and the ability to use the Saitek DUAL controllers.

[Trsmash]

This is what I dont agree with.

I don't think the question will be the skill involved in controlling the ship for most players, but how realistic or unrealistic. Star Trek fans want the ships feel and control to feel the way you would expect. A massive Galaxy class vessel and so forth wouldn't be able to turn on a Dime like in an arcade space sim. Those things take time as well as some thought upon the pitch or angle you are going to use for your next manuever so that you are best set up for your next attack run and so forth.

Other players would misinterpret this realism as the controls being unresponsive or broken because the ships arent turning fast enough.

[USS_Parallax]

I want to be able to fly with a darned joystick or analog or keyboard easy as pie. There should be nothing unnatural and it should come really quick. Something smother but just as easy as stuff like WoW movement (like with momentum and crap). Just very straightforward. Still with enough "tricks" you can do so it takes some time to completely master but no time at all to learn and not be frustrated with it.

[Osirisren]

I think they should lay it out sort of like they did on Bridge Commander, the tatical and engeringing interfaces, that worked great for me, and the joy stick would be great to, dont know how well it would work on the ground but for ship combat it would be cool, and lets all hope its not like Klingon Acadimy, i hate remebering number sequences...lol

[Father_Origin]

am kinda leaning the the 'wow' direction here....in a strategic battle, camera control can
mean life or death...so I tend to want to keep the mouse free to do that...leaving

AWSD or arrows for directional movement
left or right mouse key for default attack 'prob phasers'
and hotbar buttons (assigned by the players themselves) for everything else

also, players can create macros, and assign them a horbar button

[Flatfingers]

I've been thinking a lot about this for awhile now. Mainly trying to settle on what I'd like to see as far as how complicated ship control is, and how easily one will be able to pick it up vs how hard it will be to master.

It's a fine balance I think.

A good question, and I agree with how you've described it. Trying to serve the very wide range of abilities that are likely in Star Trek Online's potential subscribers must be one of the more difficult but important challenges (among many!) facing this game's designers.

Some semi-random points on this:

1. The Game Informer article noted that people at Cryptic are already playtesting ship action using a console controller. So considering those limits, it can't be too complicated.

2. The same GI article observed the use of cooldown timers on many ship control actions. I'm personally not too happy at all about the decision to use the cooldown timer mechanic -- it seems surprisingly simplistic and unimaginative as a way to extend the length of engagements between ships.

But it is what it is, and it means that ship control is more about the player personally mashing buttons for "special moves" than it is about interacting with the NPCs of your bridge crew to work as a team who must coordinate their individual actions. So that's another argument that Cryptic is moving in the direction of simple rather than complex.

3. If Cryptic were to allow some depth to ship control, there are ways that players can be helped to become reasonably comfortable with the essential mechanics. A good tutorial in ship control has a lot of value, for one. Another would be a system whereby one's NPC bridge crew could provide verbal assistance.

Imagine having in Star Trek Online something similar to the "AI director" that Valve designed for Left 4 Dead -- it could detect when you're having problems with some ship control feature and have an NPC offer advice on how to use it. It might even notice which control features you haven't used and prompt a bridge NPC to suggest how you might benefit from learning to use them.

...

Overall it appears to me that, based on the specifics revealed so far about control features as well as their apparent desire to hit an extremely aggressive ship date, Cryptic are designing Star Trek Online to feel familiar and comfortable to players of today's MMORPGs and console games. If so, that argues for it being a relatively shallow play experience in terms of controlling individual systems. (There might still be a lot of systems.)

So if there's a valid concern here, it's probably whether the game will have enough depth in its most popular systems to remain interesting to the more experienced gamers over the long term.

That's an opportunity for content additions and expansions, I guess.

--Flatfingers

[Sullen]

I'm happy with complicated controls so long as it starts simple. I personally hate long tutorials like EVE; that was just so boring.

When I played WoW, the controls were so mind numbingly easy in the beginning, it didn't even need any sort of tutorial, but by the time I got to end game content, I had two different binding sets (for raiding and pvp) that took up every reachable spot on my keyboard along with the shift/ctrl versions of them. I removed all of my visual buttons and had the bindings memorized... they were almost instinctive. That seemed to be the easiest way to complicate controls.

So if controls start out simple, I'm happy with that. The only other thing I'd want is an easily customizable interface.

As for how the controls should work... I'm not sure there. Having full motion control of your ship, having control over the views of your ship and the other ship, while being able to shift power to certain systems, target another ships systems, fire, and jump to warp seems extremely hard to put into a keyboard (but also sounds extremely fun :] ).

The more I think about the kind of combat system this could have, the more excited I get. I'm getting a feeling that I will be disappointed though, like my expectations are too high. Hope not!

[Posidon]

I really don't think controlling the ships will be difficult. Pretty basic up down left or right controls. No "pivots" or changes in aspect and angle will be done. If you were to do that, then you would have to have a game interface that would allow for complicated impulse and warp movement with real space environment modeling. It will problebly be Legacy style controls.

Some day, you will all understand that space can allow for some very unusual attack profiles. Things like "Z" axis rotation manuvers and of the like. Playing a game at that level requires thought and strategy. You would pilot your starship, not fly it. It would be learning how to set up attack postures and utilizing "tactical" overlays for best firing solutions. I know, I know, you DO NOT want a simulator. You will get a "shoot'em up" type game. The learning curve for this game is 2 minutes (give or take a few seconds).

[Ahsoka]

It will be like all other standard movement, mouse or keyboard

[Meehile]

I hope the controls are more like SWG than EVE.

[Xeroarmitage]

I thought about making a thread for this and I still may, but after playing an xbox 360 game who's name shall remain un-named (but not hard to figure out) which used voice command to control your troops I thought about the many great lines that a captain of a star ship gets to say... ex- aux. power to (X) (X being where ever you need it to go at the moment) Just a fun idea I had.

[Vicelance]

I hope the controls are more like SWG than EVE.

As long as the targeting is different. for some reason when in space combat it seemed to be very hard to lock on to things as my targeting crosshairs were always moving around as I controlled the ship and I spent more time trying to find the enemy ships than shoot them.

I'd like the controls to be a mixture of mouse keyboard and some Bridge commander type controls where you simply give basic orders. Though most is done by the player.