Two words: RAMMING SPEED!!

[Soruyao]

One of the things that turned me off of eve the most was what happens when you try to collide with another ship, or an asteroid. Namely you bounce off, as if the other object and yourself are covered by a big rubber bumper car bubble.

I would like to see collision detection handled in a more meaningful way here, if possible. It would be nice to be able to have ramming speed as a tactical choice, even if it isn't particularly effective. But, other than that I just want to see some reason to actually be careful when you're close to another ship or an object.

Oh and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAx8r_090o :D

[TheFeelOfCotton]

I agree, this could make an otherwise lost battle more balanced. If your ship is so badly damaged that you only have impulse engines left, ramming the other ship would make the battle interesting.

[DakotaBlue]

There was a thread on collisions vs. bumping a couple weeks ago...

If I remember correctly... many people in the community support (myself included) a collision engine. IMO, the game will feel more "real" and true to the Star Trek universe.

Here is a link to the thread....

FOLLOW ME (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=14065)

[Silverspar]

There was a thread on collisions vs. bumping a couple weeks ago...

If I remember correctly... many people in the community support (myself included) a collision engine. IMO, the game will feel more "real" and true to the Star Trek universe.

Here is a link to the thread....

FOLLOW ME (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=14065)

It might feel more real, but true to Star Trek? No, being more real doesn't have anything to do with that. As far as ramming speed, again, unless there was something to balance out people from just purposely ramming another ship all the time, then this would have to be a big no.

[SirReginaldo]

It might feel more real, but true to Star Trek? No, being more real doesn't have anything to do with that. As far as ramming speed, again, unless there was something to balance out people from just purposely ramming another ship all the time, then this would have to be a big no.

Dude lets see, what would stop you... DIEING!! The chance of SURVIVING!! The chance of "NOT" losing your ship? Would you ram your ship every time you got into another... That would be retarded and a waste of time. If it was a one on one and you are on a important mission and their mission is to intercept you and you feel that you are going to fail, self destructing/raming and escaping with the info on a shuttle, transporting, or even going down in a firery ball of flame is a option, but if your in a fleet combat where another vessel can help you, whats the point? Do you want to lose your ship and all your work that you put into it on purpose? I sure as heck would not. See in EvE, allied ships can repair and even save you from being scrambled(so you cant warp). Stuff like engineering vessels are to be expected in Fleet combat, like how the Nebula class vessel is used for science and engineering/transport in many episodes.

I rest my case:D

No offense:D

[Silverspar]

Some people don't care. Big whoop, you die. You hit the respawn button, and some people will just rinse and repeat. Saying dying will be the deterant doesn't work for everyone. I am also getting the impression you are one of those people that would purposely ram others to, whether dying or not.

You had to have a case in order to rest it first to begin with. This is a game, and games have rules, balance priorities and fun priorities over those who want reallistic.

[Lence]

I don't know what I said in the other thread...something stupid probably....blah.

Anyway I don't think we should be able to ram into other ships outside of battle. I can understand it that either way, Ramming or no ramming, that you are going to lose your ship that you want to deliver enough damage to the enemy. Then your friends can come in and deliver the death blow. But that should only be given as a last ditch option to a player. I.E

Your ship is heavily damaged-All major systems are down, ship destruction imminent- Do you wish to order ramming speeds?

Outside of a battle, say you leave your computer to go answer the door, some noob wants to play chicken with your ship. If its a friend ship, once it gets to with in a certain distance, and he isn't changing course. The computer takes over with some last minute changes moving his ship away from yours.

[cenglandjr]

I agree, this could make an otherwise lost battle more balanced. If your ship is so badly damaged that you only have impulse engines left, ramming the other ship would make the battle interesting.

Ramming ships will only encouragge the little 12 year olds that have nothing better to do then ram thier ships into more expensive ships or bases. They think it's funny while it may end up costing you weeks of hard earned work to replace and restore.

HELL NO!!!!

[Soruyao]

Some people don't care. Big whoop, you die. You hit the respawn button, and some people will just rinse and repeat. Saying dying will be the deterant doesn't work for everyone. I am also getting the impression you are one of those people that would purposely ram others to, whether dying or not.

You had to have a case in order to rest it first to begin with. This is a game, and games have rules, balance priorities and fun priorities over those who want reallistic.

Maybe then ramming could act differently in pvp vs. non pvp areas. IE: If you ram yourself into an allied ship or an enemy faction ship you don't have the right to fire on, you take damage and they don't. Something along those lines might work and still allow the functionality for people who would want to use it.


(Note: I apologize for the repeat thread. What should I do in a situation like this, delete the thread and post in the already made one, or continue the discussion in this one?)

[USS_Parallax]

It would just turn into a suicide game. I've played too many of those where the losers will always kill themselves to kill you.

[Mosfet]

You could have it in PvP only areas and make it so that it will only activate if your ship has say less than 10% health.

[TheFeelOfCotton]

Ramming ships will only encouragge the little 12 year olds that have nothing better to do then ram thier ships into more expensive ships or bases. They think it's funny while it may end up costing you weeks of hard earned work to replace and restore.

HELL NO!!!!

Then Cryptic should have like a passive ability that when your ship is damaged to a certain degree only then can you ram another ship and/or starbase.

[Silverspar]

That wouldn't stop people from ramming. In fact it was a tactic used in City of Heroes quite regularly with blasters. Their old Defiance mechanic relied on them being hurt, and many blasteres would drop their health to an inch of living, to max out their damage instantly. Especially in PvP.

[osena]

ramming speed it could cos loss of ship integrity massisve hull breach you would capsize and have to under go massive repairs or refitting

[Interdictor]

It would just turn into a suicide game. I've played too many of those where the losers will always kill themselves to kill you.

Exactly - the game would degenerate into stupid suicide runs pretty quickly - to say NOTHING of the greifing that will be going on in orbit over Earth or the Klingon Homeworld.

This isn't a sim - mandatory universal collision is a real bad idea. Now perhaps as some kind of a special last-dich maneuver like self-destruct.......maybe.

[Interdictor]

That wouldn't stop people from ramming. In fact it was a tactic used in City of Heroes quite regularly with blasters. Their old Defiance mechanic relied on them being hurt, and many blasteres would drop their health to an inch of living, to max out their damage instantly. Especially in PvP.

I remember that - Blasters would jump off buildings to get their HP down to 1 just so they could max out their damage capability.

This is the kind of crazy (or is it genius) that we would have to put up with in STO - mark my words - if there is free collision every pvp battle will start off - and end - with a round of kamikaze runs.

[Silverspar]

I remember that - Blasters would jump off buildings to get their HP down to 1 just so they could max out their damage capability.

This is the kind of crazy (or is it genius) that we would have to put up with in STO - mark my words - if there is free collision every pvp battle will start off with a round of kamikaze runs.

Yea, and that kind of effect led to a lot of one shotting in PvP zones. It was definitely, unfun, as the wording typically goes, as PvP in CoH was just too fast for even the best of situations and fastest of reactions. Most of the time you rarely got a chance to reallise the blaster just appeared before he one shot you otu of existance.

[WINDoSt]

I can see the future:
I come online and get 15 messages that the USS NoobPwner crashed into my space station til it was completely destroyed.
Even the "Cant ram other players until your health is low" wont help because they would just fly around the station's defense towers (which they will have, i hope) until their ship is nearly destroyed, then scream "RAMMING SPEED OLOLOL!!!1!11!" and fly a kamikaze attack in my promenade.

[doser]

Frankly, I don't see how anyone would have missed this already.

Regardless, I stay 100% confident this is already in the game.

If it isn't, it'll be the most hilarious mistake since Doom3 and Doom: The Movie were created.

This will be in the game.

If it isn't - it isnt Star Trek.

Fact.

And no, it won't just turn the game into a "suicide game"

I don't see how thats even possible when you'd only be allowed to ram them when virtually destroyed anyway - it wouldn't necessarily destroy the other ship (only a few systems) --- and there wouldnt even be any assurance you could crash before you are destroyed ANYWAY.

So its a good idea. Add it.

[Urantia]

One of the things that turned me off of eve the most was what happens when you try to collide with another ship, or an asteroid. Namely you bounce off, as if the other object and yourself are covered by a big rubber bumper car bubble.

I would like to see collision detection handled in a more meaningful way here, if possible. It would be nice to be able to have ramming speed as a tactical choice, even if it isn't particularly effective. But, other than that I just want to see some reason to actually be careful when you're close to another ship or an object.

Oh and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAx8r_090o :D

Two words: NO THANKS!!!

[DarkBarron]

How about if inorder to ram a ship they have to agree to a hostile action pop up message at which point they are flagged as hostile and can be fired on by any other ship? soon get popped in the more populated areas and station defences would kill them on auto.

Normaly ship computer intervention or tractor beams could prevent accidental ramming of other ships.

DB

[djnattyd]

This will be in the game.

If it isn't - it isnt Star Trek.

Fact.



Why do people insist on putting this into their posts? Do they think it gives them more substance than if they put "This should be in the game because it would seem more realistic than just ghosting through stuff or bouncing off it"?

[Silverspar]

Frankly, I don't see how anyone would have missed this already.

Regardless, I stay 100% confident this is already in the game.

If it isn't, it'll be the most hilarious mistake since Doom3 and Doom: The Movie were created.

This will be in the game.

If it isn't - it isnt Star Trek.

Fact.

And no, it won't just turn the game into a "suicide game"

I don't see how thats even possible when you'd only be allowed to ram them when virtually destroyed anyway - it wouldn't necessarily destroy the other ship (only a few systems) --- and there wouldnt even be any assurance you could crash before you are destroyed ANYWAY.

So its a good idea. Add it.

You are so wrong on so many levels. Not having collision will not make it any less Star Trek.

Fact. Get over it.

[WINDoSt]

How about if inorder to ram a ship they have to agree to a hostile action pop up message at which point they are flagged as hostile and can be fired on by any other ship? soon get popped in the more populated areas and station defences would kill them on auto.

Normaly ship computer intervention or tractor beams could prevent accidental ramming of other ships.

DB

That would be funny! A message pops up:
"USS Dave1996 wants to crash into your ship in order to destroy you. Do you agree?"

[DarkBarron]

That would be funny! A message pops up:
"USS Dave1996 wants to crash into your ship in order to destroy you. Do you agree?"

More like USS Dave1996 has declared hostile intentions towards your ship do you wish to take
evasive action or fire with all available weapons :p ( with a default for AFK'ers of course ) lol

DB

[robgomm]

Tough question to answer, but we should the option of trying to ram someone if we have no weapons left.

[fireraven]

the only way they should allow ramming is if they allow permadeath and permanent ship loss... otherwise it will be abused by the typical idiot gamers that just like to screw with other people... If you just reappear at starbase alive with your ship after being destroyed then what would keep someone from ramming just for fun...
after all doesn't really cost them anything...

[IG_Slayer]

Im playing EVE right now. The thing I hate the most is some of the retarded skill training times. Currently working on Industry V, 7.5 days to go!!!!:eek:

[Soruyao]

You're all assuming that it will be the most effective attack. Why couldn't it be something like the last stand perk in call of duty 4, where it's a last kind of weak attack that you do once most of your other systems offline? People don't deliberately kill themselves to be on the floor plinking away with their pistols in CoD4, do they? it doesn't change the fact that it's mildly useful and interesting.

[Interdictor]

If it isn't - it isnt Star Trek.

Fact.

LOL! Since when is ramming each other all over the place a huge part of star trek? We've only seen it a handful of times - and while it looks good on screen according to the plot - it will be a different beast entirely in game.

[Lizzio]

Lol in eve we bump each other to make our enemies stoping warping away

[_Pax_]

It would be nice to be able to have ramming speed as a tactical choice, even if it isn't particularly effective.
... it would be TOO effective, if done at ALL realistically.

No, I mean that literally. Let's list a few interesting numbers, shall we? Then I'll tie them all together and show you just how stupendously devastating a "ramming speed" maneuver really SHOULD be.


The 9-megaton B53 nuclear warhead (formerly fielded by the United States) releases 38,000 TJ (terajoules; 1TJ = 1,000,000,000,000 joules) in an omnidirectional pulse.
The kinetic energy of an object is equal to one half it's mass (in kilograms), times it's velocity (in meters per second) squared, in joules. IOW, a 2kg mass moving 1 meter per second has 1 joule of kinetic energy. A 2kg mass moving 10m/second has 100 joules of kintic energy. A 10kg object moving 10m/sec has 500 joules of kinetic energy. And so on.
The speed of light is approximately 300,000,000 meters per second.
Full impulse speed is approximately one-half to two-thirds the speed of light - or, between 150 and 200 million meters per second.
a TOS era Constitution class vessel has a cited mass of approximately 1,000,000 metric tons, or 1 billion kilograms.


Well, now, time to tie those numbers together.

One-quarter to one-third impulse power is 50,000,000 meters per second. With me so far?

50,000,000 squared is 2,500,000,000,000,000 ... now, stay with me ...

One half of the mass of a Constitution class cruiser (cited as 1,000,000,000kg) is 500,000,000 ...

500,000,000 times 2,500,000,000,000,000 is 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000.

That's the kinetic energy, in joules, of a Constitution class vessel travelling somewhere between one-quarter and one-third impulse speed: 12,500,000,000 TJ.

Now, put that on a back burner for a second ...

If the energy output of a 9-megaton nuclear weapon is 38,000TJ, then logically speaking, it stands to reason that a 1-megaton device should have an output of 1/9 that total, or, approximately 4,200 TJ.

Are you still with me? ONE more step to go ...

12,500,000,000 TJ, divided by 4,200TJ-per-megaton, gives us an energy value of just barely over 2,976,190 megatons - in a SINGLE DIRECTION, unlike the usual "omnidirectional" release of energy produced by explosives. IOW, we're talking about a "shaped charge" effect, which has a multiplicative effect on a charge's destructive capabilities, for it's size.

...

Functionally, a one-quarter to one-third impulse ram, performed by a Constitution class cruiser, should result in the release/transfer of energy approximately equal to that produced by detonating three million megatons of TNT. Half of that would be inflicted on the Constitution class ship itself, and half of it on the target.

And that's a relatively SLOW ram, against an immobile target (of equal mass) ...! God help you if the other guy is moving at the same speed, and the collision is head-on ...!! :eek:

[_Pax_]

Dude lets see, what would stop you... DIEING!! The chance of SURVIVING!! The chance of "NOT" losing your ship?
...

As a duty-bound and dedicated officer in Starfleet, if I can take my poorly-armed Oberth up to full impulse and ram a Borg Cube? Given the numbers I cited above, thos would be certain oblivion for BOTH ships. And that?

Worth. The. Price.

Seriously - one cheap, small science vessel and BOOM, no more borg cube? What responsible captain WOULDN'T take that option ...?!?

[RE-Kirk]

... it would be TOO effective, if done at ALL realistically.

Functionally, a one-quarter to one-third impulse ram, performed by a Constitution class cruiser, should result in the release/transfer of energy approximately equal to that produced by detonating three million megatons of TNT. Half of that would be inflicted on the Constitution class ship itself, and half of it on the target.

And that's a relatively SLOW ram, against an immobile target (of equal mass) ...! God help you if the other guy is moving at the same speed, and the collision is head-on ...!! :eek:

I like it - but you put way too much math into a simple statement

"Mutually assured destruction"

Still i have always felt that a shield is a weapon in direct proportion to its effectiveness as a shield - I have landed many a space flight-sim fighter held together with only duck-tape and a vague hope that nothing else hits me on the way to the docking station

Ramming Speed in capital ship combat should result in the near total destruction of both ships if shields are down - or the appropriate devastaating effects on the shields and structure of any ships involved

The original star trek book and dice game had rules for proximity warp core breaches - the same concept should apply to ramming and exploding and exploding and exploding (depending on the number of ships in the vacinity)

"we are on a collision course with the moon! what do we do now, commander?"
"we die" - last starfighter

[Silverspar]

Full impulse speed is approximately one-half to two-thirds the speed of light - or, between 150 and 200 million meters per second. Full Impulse is described as being one-quarter the speed of light, not half or two thirds. One quarter is already pushing the realm of believability to begin with as anything faster would start hitting time dialation effects to.

So, for your equation, when discussing full impulse, you will probably want to state 75,000,000 meters per second, or 75,000 kilometers per second, or even better described, 75 megameters per second.

[_Pax_]

I like it - but you put way too much math into a simple statement

"Mutually assured destruction"
It's more than that.

An enemy fleet is about to capture the star system yoru guild has spent months building up? You and your buddy plot impact courses, and both engage WARP NINE ...

... there's a bright flash ...

... and the entire solar system simply vanishes.

Let me explain: warp 9 is, TNG scale, something like [9^4]c, or over 6500c. Thus, the closing velocity would be ~13000c, which is 3,900,000,000,000m/sec; squared, this is 15,210,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. That's a kinetic energy value of 15,210,000,000,000,000TJ ... [i]over fifteen point two trillion terajoules. Per 2kg of mass, for the sum total of BOTH ships. If both are, say, Sovereigns (massing ~3.2 million metric tons each) ...?

48,672,000,000,000,000,000,000TJ ... 11,588,571,428,571,428,571 megatons.

...

Like I said: a bright flash, then the entire solar system simply vanishes.

[_Pax_]

Full Impulse is described as being one-quarter the speed of light,
Where was this described? Because, according to Memory Alpha:

By the 2270s, impulse was capable of sustaining Warp .8 without the warp drive even being online. (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)
... and ...
Dialogue from several episodes, including "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and "The Doomsday Machine" suggests that the impulse drive could be used in some manner to propel a ship at faster than light speeds, albeit with a lower maximum speed and a higher rate of fuel consumption than the main warp drive.
... and ...
In The Motion Picture, The Enterprise traveled at Warp .5 from Earth to past the planet Jupiter, a distance of (at a minimum) 390,674,900 miles in 1.8 hours, making that speed approximately equal to 97,026 kilometers per second (217,041,611 miles per hour), or roughly 1/3 light speed.
... and ...
A reference made in "Fair Haven" indicated that USS Voyager's impulse power would not be enough to outrun an approaching neutronic storm that was traveling at a velocity of 200,000 kilometers per second (447,387,258 miles per hour), or roughly 2/3 the speed of light.
(This one is what set the upper bound for speed in my estimate, actually.)

So, for your equation, when discussing full impulse, you will probably want to state 75,000,000 meters per second, or 75,000 kilometers per second, or even better described, 75 megameters per second.
Specific numbers aside, and spekaing only of units: since the formula for deriving the joules of kinetic energy in an object is specific to kilograms and meters per second, those are the most appropriate units to use. :)

[Silverspar]

Impulse is capable of going that fast, in fact impulse is capable of going light speed, however it's inefficient and going that fast results in Einstein's theory smacking you hard in the face. Basically, the faster you go the more time slows down, and if you hit light speed time essentially stops. But this is the normal where the writers don't understand physics at all.

The Starfleet designation of Full Impulse is 1/4 the speed of light, it's like the reccomended cruising speed of an ocean going ship in the normals hipping lanes. Ships might be capable of going faster than that, but that still doesn't negate the fact there is a designated cruising speed.

[_Pax_]

I'll ask agan, what is your source ...?

Memory Alpha bills itelf as the repository of "all that is canonical" for Star Trek, and there is no such statement available there.

[Soruyao]

I`m not sure exactly how fast the enterprise was moving in nemesis, but if I remember correctly the enterprise smashed into an already crippled ship that most likely had it's shield down, and all it ended up doing was wedging itself inside. There was no mutually assured destruction there, just some mutual ship damage. The scene in question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeYrkdyW2Cw&feature=related) 3:35

With the speed these ships go, it's unlikely one ship would be able to get close enough to ram another ship unless the other ship is totally crippled, and even if real life physics would dictate that such a maneuver would be too effective, that doesn't mean that we couldn't take liberties with it for gameplay purposes. I mean, that fight was canon, wasn't it?

Also, if we're going with the "last stand" rule, then most of the time the ship that's been weakened enough to be able to try and ram someone is going to get shot out of the sky when it tries to close the distance. The only times it would really happen is when both ships are already shot up and crippled, in which case it would just replace an anticlimactic end to a fight.

What's more realistic anyway, what happened in that scene, or the ships magically bouncing off each other?

[Silverspar]

*sighs*

Let's see, various tech manuals and novels, and the numerous RPGs. They all say the samething, full impulse is 1/4 the speed of light by Starfleet designation.

[Interdictor]

What's more realistic anyway, what happened in that scene, or the ships magically bouncing off each other?

You are assuming that starship combat in this SCI FI game is going to be "realisitc".

[USS_Parallax]

The lack of caring for you dying leads to everyone becoming a suicide bomber. Want to take out that enemy Starbase in PvP? Just run into it! About to die? Ramming speed! Bored and want to grieve? Oops, I just rammed into my teammate! Just trying to do fancy flying moves and BAM! Accidentally exploded on someone.

[Interdictor]

It's more than that.

An enemy fleet is about to capture the star system yoru guild has spent months building up? You and your buddy plot impact courses, and both engage WARP NINE ...

... there's a bright flash ...

... and the entire solar system simply vanishes.

I think you are a bit off your rocker if you think something like this is actually going to happen in-game. I hope you were just using it as a humorous example.

[Silverspar]

What's more realistic anyway, what happened in that scene, or the ships magically bouncing off each other?People who keep asking for reallism don't seem to think very far ahead. If reallism was fun do you think you would be trying to escape into a game where things are totally unreallistic?

[Lizzio]

People who keep asking for reallism don't seem to think very far ahead. If reallism was fun do you think you would be trying to escape into a game where things are totally unreallistic?

So true.. if you want everthing to be realistic
stop playing games and shoot your self in the air

[Dext]

Ramming would be fun to do but I can also where people would do it to just do it in pvp if they know they can not take you on.

[Soruyao]

People who keep asking for reallism don't seem to think very far ahead. If reallism was fun do you think you would be trying to escape into a game where things are totally unreallistic?

I was never asking for realism, I was responding to the argument that real world physics meant that ramming someone would be too powerful. I was explaining that the alternative (bouncing off of someone) is equally or more unrealistic anyway, and thus the decision on whether or not to impliment such a feature would need to be decided on gameplay grounds and not on physics ones.

The lack of caring for you dying leads to everyone becoming a suicide bomber. Want to take out that enemy Starbase in PvP? Just run into it! About to die? Ramming speed! Bored and want to grieve? Oops, I just rammed into my teammate! Just trying to do fancy flying moves and BAM! Accidentally exploded on someone.

Okay, lets say I want to ram a starbase, this is a hypothetical situation that assumes that this is a last stand attack the way I described it before: I float around the starbase and get nailed by it's guns until my shields are down and my ship is almost dead. OKAY! RAMMING TIME. Boom, oops my ship got nailed again while I was trying to close in for the ram. I`m such a good griefer!

[_Pax_]

I`m not sure exactly how fast the enterprise was moving in nemesis, [...]
The answer is "not very". I don't recall them having a whole lot of room/time to accelerate, they were very close and their own weapons and shields were down.

Also: don't rely on a Science Fiction movie or television episode to properly and accurately reflect actual science.

[...] and all it ended up doing was wedging itself inside. There was no mutually assured destruction there, just some mutual ship damage. The scene in question (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeYrkdyW2Cw&feature=related) 3:35
At 2:30, you can see that the Nemesis has come to a full relative stop - that is to say, in relation to each other, the ships are essentially motionless. And as you say, the Enterprise was already crippled; ramming was an act of desperation.

The clip shows the Enterprise beginning to move at 2:31.5 ... and Iw ant you to pay especial attention to the span of time from ~2:41 until 2:44 - that's the time it takes for the enterprise to move about a quarter it's own length - a length that Memory Alpha describes as 685m. This is mere seconds before the ship impacts upon the Nemesis - and shows a speed of perhaps 50m/second.

Also, the actual impact starts at about 2:50 ... it takes a full second for the Sovereign to embed itself into the Nemesis by about the same distance as it's Bridge module - which is not an astonishingly huge distance; I' be surprised if the bridge module (bridge, captains' ready room, senior officer's conference room, two turbolift stations, and probably a couple bathrooms) was more than 30m or 40m across.

So that also supports a speed of roughly 50 meters per second.

Compare that to a speed of fifty MILLION miles per second ... and remember, the kinetic energy of an object increases with the square of it's velocity. Ten times as fast = one hundred times as much energy.

I mean, that fight was canon, wasn't it?
Sure. But, when there's a conflict between real, established, actual, proven science and movie/TV canon ... it ain't Science that bends.

Besides - see my points, above.

[_Pax_]

I think you are a bit off your rocker if you think something like this is actually going to happen in-game. I hope you were just using it as a humorous example.

My point is, to all the people who say "be realistic", is ... if the game WERE realistic? That's what wold happen.

So for it to NOT be able to happen in-game, the game must perfoce be less than entirely realistic.

[USS_Parallax]

Okay, lets say I want to ram a starbase, this is a hypothetical situation that assumes that this is a last stand attack the way I described it before: I float around the starbase and get nailed by it's guns until my shields are down and my ship is almost dead. OKAY! RAMMING TIME. Boom, oops my ship got nailed again while I was trying to close in for the ram. I`m such a good griefer!

It wouldn't be treated as a last stand situation. The reason it's a last stand situation in "real life" or "fake life" is because those people value their lives. That doesn't exist here. Even with death penalties I doubt anyone would care. The death penalties will probably be no worse then the CoH ones.

Small ship against a big ship? Ramming speed from the getgo. Fleet vs Borg? How about 10 of you just ram it at warp 9?
Suicide is an awful situation in real life which leads it to being the last resort. That just cannot be said about video games. It's a casual thing in gaming since you just respawn.

[Kirky]

I'm not too sure about ship to ship ramming, seems too much of a greifing engine to be worth the benefit, although I believe some of the methods mentioned in this thread to prevent the use of the system as a greifing device have merit, and could be expanded upon.

I am hoping that object colision detection will be in place, as the idea of weaving through an asteroid belt in a smaller vessel (say an Intrepid, Defiant or Nova class to name a few), evading enemy fire from a larger, more powerfull vessel. This goes on to the point of being able to use the environment as a tactical aid, although that's for another thread.

[The_Sisko]

... it would be TOO effective, if done at ALL realistically.

No, I mean that literally. Let's list a few interesting numbers, shall we? Then I'll tie them all together and show you just how stupendously devastating a "ramming speed" maneuver really SHOULD be.


The 9-megaton B53 nuclear warhead (formerly fielded by the United States) releases 38,000 TJ (terajoules; 1TJ = 1,000,000,000,000 joules) in an omnidirectional pulse.
The kinetic energy of an object is equal to one half it's mass (in kilograms), times it's velocity (in meters per second) squared, in joules. IOW, a 2kg mass moving 1 meter per second has 1 joule of kinetic energy. A 2kg mass moving 10m/second has 100 joules of kintic energy. A 10kg object moving 10m/sec has 500 joules of kinetic energy. And so on.
The speed of light is approximately 300,000,000 meters per second.
Full impulse speed is approximately one-half to two-thirds the speed of light - or, between 150 and 200 million meters per second.
a TOS era Constitution class vessel has a cited mass of approximately 1,000,000 metric tons, or 1 billion kilograms.


Well, now, time to tie those numbers together.

One-quarter to one-third impulse power is 50,000,000 meters per second. With me so far?

50,000,000 squared is 2,500,000,000,000,000 ... now, stay with me ...

One half of the mass of a Constitution class cruiser (cited as 1,000,000,000kg) is 500,000,000 ...

500,000,000 times 2,500,000,000,000,000 is 12,500,000,000,000,000,000,000.

That's the kinetic energy, in joules, of a Constitution class vessel travelling somewhere between one-quarter and one-third impulse speed: 12,500,000,000 TJ.

Now, put that on a back burner for a second ...

If the energy output of a 9-megaton nuclear weapon is 38,000TJ, then logically speaking, it stands to reason that a 1-megaton device should have an output of 1/9 that total, or, approximately 4,200 TJ.

Are you still with me? ONE more step to go ...

12,500,000,000 TJ, divided by 4,200TJ-per-megaton, gives us an energy value of just barely over 2,976,190 megatons - in a SINGLE DIRECTION, unlike the usual "omnidirectional" release of energy produced by explosives. IOW, we're talking about a "shaped charge" effect, which has a multiplicative effect on a charge's destructive capabilities, for it's size.

...

Functionally, a one-quarter to one-third impulse ram, performed by a Constitution class cruiser, should result in the release/transfer of energy approximately equal to that produced by detonating three million megatons of TNT. Half of that would be inflicted on the Constitution class ship itself, and half of it on the target.

And that's a relatively SLOW ram, against an immobile target (of equal mass) ...! God help you if the other guy is moving at the same speed, and the collision is head-on ...!! :eek:

The Defiant class is equipped with a "last-ditch" matter-antimatter warhead, it could be used to ram ships in the event all was lost.

She was built to fight the Borg after all.

[Voorhees]

It might feel more real, but true to Star Trek? No, being more real doesn't have anything to do with that. As far as ramming speed, again, unless there was something to balance out people from just purposely ramming another ship all the time, then this would have to be a big no.

There is a good solution to that. One is they can set it where you can ram enemy ships only. If you ram a friend you either go through them or bounce off them.

[andrewprofit]

One of the things that turned me off of eve the most was what happens when you try to collide with another ship, or an asteroid. Namely you bounce off, as if the other object and yourself are covered by a big rubber bumper car bubble.

I would like to see collision detection handled in a more meaningful way here, if possible. It would be nice to be able to have ramming speed as a tactical choice, even if it isn't particularly effective. But, other than that I just want to see some reason to actually be careful when you're close to another ship or an object.

Oh and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTAx8r_090o :D

I agree. I think most Star Trek fans love the IP because it is relatively consistant to itself they justify the things that happen in that reality through science. Collision damage is common sense. I would like to see warp core breaches on smaller ships cause damage to larger ships as well.

Space is big ships should be shooting from far away

[Silverspar]

There is a good solution to that. One is they can set it where you can ram enemy ships only. If you ram a friend you either go through them or bounce off them.

That's not a good solution since that still doesn't solve the major problem, people just ramming willy nilly in PvP. And griefers, specifically, will do just that because they think it is a big laugh.

[SenshiBat]

Well that brings the time honours tractor the prey and crash them into an asteroid stragitum..

[_Pax_]

Or better, tractor an asteroid (along with yoru twenty friends), and crash THOSE into your guild-enemy's starbase?

Same energy equations apply, mind you.

[Father_Origin]

ramming = griefing

even ramming with no damage = group griefing

griefer one ram from front, griefer two rams from back, griefer three parks 3 meter to one side and kills you, cuz you can't move.


ramming...bad

[Silverspar]

Yes, bumping can be a proven grief tactic to. Depends on how Cryptic will handle collision, but ramming no, should not be allowed otherwise it will just become starship rammers online as far as PvP and probably many PvE encounters will be concerned.

In EVE, there was a tactic to force people out of protective fields by getting a large ship to initiate a high warp into the repulsion field, I beleive it was, and bump all the hostiles out of the field making them easy targets for the aggressors. This tactic was patched out according to what I read.