New Threat

[STO]

According to the Dev's in NY, there is going to be Federation alliance conflict vs. Klingon alliance conflict. In addition to that there will be a new threat that will spread galaxy wide and will be the revival of an "ancient threat."

I was going to try to guess what that threat is. My guess is the Prometheans. What do you guys think?

[DJDizzy]

Either Hortas or Tribbles

[Lence]

My vote is on the tribble consortium.

[AaronH]

I confess, its me.

Seriously though, there is such a wide range of choices, the star trek universe is litered with powerful and mysterious empries that you can't go a few light years without bumping into one.

My geuss is the First Federation. Those guys were scary.

[USS_ARROW]

I first thought the Romulans, but it seems that their fighting their own civil war.

Evidence points torward the Borg. But who knows, maybe the Dominion's back in town:p

[JacobFlowers]

According to the Dev's in NY, there is going to be Federation alliance conflict vs. Klingon alliance conflict. In addition to that there will be a new threat that will spread galaxy wide and will be the revival of an "ancient threat."

I was going to try to guess what that threat is. My guess is the Prometheans. What do you guys think?

An ancient threat... hmm... I hope it isn't anything from Enterprise like those temporal cold war guys... blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Puh-lease.

hmm... thinking... thinking... thinking... hmmm...

Yea, Borg would make sense... I mean they cross borders and really don't give a frack. I mean, I could think of Tholians... but I never heard of their empire or space being substantial....

Dev's can you give us a hint?:confused:

[Sevenblade]

Either Hortas or Tribbles

I seriously hope it's not. The Tribbles as the main antagonist would be ridiculously lame and anticlimactic. Not to mention, they're supposed to be extinct now.

So far, I tend to agree with anyone who thinks it could be either the Iconians, T'kon, or Tholians, in that order of probability (most to least likely).

[Interdictor]

I seriously hope it's not. The Tribbles as the main antagonist would be ridiculously lame and anticlimactic. Not to mention, they're supposed to be extinct now.
Nope - as per DS9 they've made a comeback due to some temporal mishap.

[The_Padre]

The creators of the Doomsday Machine.

[Bastrol]

Perhaps the Iconians, they had the tech to appear anywhere in the Galaxy right?

[Sevenblade]

Nope - as per DS9 they've made a comeback due to some temporal mishap.

Oh nevermind, you're right, I forgot about that. I really need to watch more DS9. What little I have seen I forget most of.

[Quatok]

*running around flaying his arms around like a mad man* Da Hur'q are coming, Da Hur'q are coming!!!!!!!!

[THORN74]

doomsday machines or the Kelvin Empire invasion

[Bastrol]

I would love the new ancient threat to be the Hur'q. If this is the case I may choose to be in the Klingon faction!

[Bastrol]

doomsday machines or the Kelvin Empire invasion

I believe the Doomsday machines will be random events if I remember seeing it correctly, along with some other ones I can't remember now.
Also what was the Kelvin Empire? (too lazy to look things up)

[THORN74]

I believe the Doomsday machines will be random events if I remember seeing it correctly, along with some other ones I can't remember now.
Also what was the Kelvin Empire? (too lazy to look things up)

kelvin empire here (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68760.html) were scouts from the Andromeda Galaxy sent to scout ahead for the invasion of the Milkyway. They arrived in the second season of TOS and were far more advanced than us. The end of the episode had ended peacfully but, the invasion force had already left their home planet. so it was too late to stop them.

[Bastrol]

kelvin empire here (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/TOS/episode/68760.html) were scouts from the Andromeda Galaxy sent to scout ahead for the invasion of the Milkyway. They arrived in the second season of TOS and were far more advanced than us. The end of the episode had ended peacfully but, the invasion force had already left their home planet. so it was too late to stop them.

Ah yes, I remember now, thanks:)
They would make good antagonists, possibilities for a galaxy wide war perhaps? How would they fare against races like the Borg or even the Dominion in thier own space I wonder?

[Sevenblade]

*running around flaying his arms around like a mad man* Da Hur'q are coming, Da Hur'q are coming!!!!!!!!

While that would be a cool idea, this poses a problem:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hur%27q
The Hur'q (a Klingon term meaning "outsider") was the name given by the Klingons to a now-extinct species that flourished approximately a thousand years ago.

As for the Kelvans, in that episode their ships were destroyed by the galactic barrier meant to keep 0 out, so I doubt they would be able to send an attack fleet through. Otherwise a good idea, though.

[USS_Parallax]

The Her'q. They have a lot of history with the Klingons and other civilizations.

[The_Padre]

It could be the Briori for all we know.

[Riceball]

What about Organinans (gone bad). :D

[topekaguy1988]

A general Zombie uprising in all sectors. Now that is really stupid but it would be pretty amusing.

[topekaguy1988]

No, its probably the Kelvan's

[connordyer]

A general Zombie uprising in all sectors. Now that is really stupid but it would be pretty amusing.How is that stupid? That'd be sweet. Although we already have the Trek version of zombies called the Borg.

[Sevenblade]

The Her'q. They have a lot of history with the Klingons and other civilizations.

Or not :rolleyes: Try looking at my post right above yours...

[Quatok]

While that would be a cool idea, this poses a problem:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hur%27q


As for the Kelvans, in that episode their ships were destroyed by the galactic barrier meant to keep 0 out, so I doubt they would be able to send an attack fleet through. Otherwise a good idea, though.

However, there were signs of them in the Gamma Quadrant...who is to say they aren't still around. hmmmm.

Their devils I tell ya, devils.

[Sevenblade]

However, there were signs of them in the Gamma Quadrant...who is to say they aren't still around. hmmmm.

Their devils I tell ya, devils.

Yeah....ruins. The Colosseum's still around; I don't see any Roman Empire. I'm inclined to believe the canon database (Memory Alpha) that specifically states them as being extinct. I really don't see how you can work around that in any way.

[SirReginaldo]

What about those super humans. They are ancient back before the planet was raped by war, pre cochrane am I right? Or even then it could be that the species from back in that temporal galactic war are back, like enterprise. I think someone mentioned that. Hell, even the species, what ever they were called, that consisted of those insects, fish, lizards and kinda monkey men are viable. Maybe one of the species became dominant like the lizards. The insects were on their side, and they were both pretty strong sub species. With help from the temporal factions they could be back.

Hell maybe those super humans have been away long enough to have multiplied enough to create armies and take over worlds:eek: I am so scared of the unknown.... Damn this human mind:D

[Rekkert]

Maybe the sphere builders form Enterprise?
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Sphere_Builder

[Sevenblade]

What about those super humans. They are ancient back before the planet was raped by war, pre cochrane am I right?

Augments? Those are just humans that have been genetically altered. Not to mention they've been banned, and Starfleet does a fairly good job of investigating any suspected Augments.

Or even then it could be that the species from back in that temporal galactic war are back, like enterprise. I think someone mentioned that.

The Na'kuhl are from the 29th century, so I kinda doubt they count as an "ancient" threat. Unless you're talking about the Sphere Builders, who pretty much lost any hold on this universe when the Spheres were destroyed, as they're from a different plane of existence.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Na%27kuhl
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Sphere_Builder

Hell, even the species, what ever they were called, that consisted of those insects, fish, lizards and kinda monkey men are viable. Maybe one of the species became dominant like the lizards. The insects were on their side, and they were both pretty strong sub species. With help from the temporal factions they could be back.

The Xindi were shown to have joined the Federation in at least one future timeline by the 26th century, if not earlier.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Xindi

Hell maybe those super humans have been away long enough to have multiplied enough to create armies and take over worlds:eek: I am so scared of the unknown.... Damn this human mind:D

[osena]

i think it will be Ghost kirk or V'ger

[IanD967]

im gonna do ahead and say the Borg.

since they were discovered during the Enterprise era then add a few hundred years untill the TNG era see's them again and then again add a few more years on for Voyager and First Contact and you will have alot of years involving the borg and thus "Ancient" plus the fact we have been seeing a ton of Borg ships in the trailer :D

[HyorD]

im gonna do ahead and say the Borg.

since they were discovered during the Enterprise era then add a few hundred years untill the TNG era see's them again and then again add a few more years on for Voyager and First Contact and you will have alot of years involving the borg and thus "Ancient" plus the fact we have been seeing a ton of Borg ships in the trailer :DWell, they've been speaking of it as though it's some sort of mystery we'll have to solve, and with all the Borg activity we've been seeing, that wouldn't be much of a mystery. I'm guessing something that's been referenced but never delved too much into, such as the Iconians.

Or Armus ;)

[Paulo999]

the Hur'q ?

[Silverspar]

The Hur'q is only something of a Klingon legend now. I don't recall the whole thing and essentially don't want to mistake anything.

Anyways, official statement is something of Star Trek's own past. A lot of things to think about there. There is the Andromedans, the First Federation, the Iconians (never were established if they were friend or foe), the Tkon Empire (though the Guardian seemed to be intrigued by Riker, he more or less respected that Riker was fearless, the Guardian acted more like a man who was from the position of a conqueror (Episode: The Last Outpost)). There are any numerous groups you can think of that have appeared in Trek that could be a potentially suitable enemy and threat to both, though I beleive the Tkon Empire comprised space that was much larger than the Federation and Klingon Empires combined.

Edit: Actually looked up the Tkon Empire, laughably, another one of the infamous Star Trek blunders, the Tkon Empire stretched over 600,000 light years (six times bigger than the Milky Way Galaxy). Though with their technology described, the Tkonians would probably be a very formidable foe.

[Whodeydiesel]

I think it is going to be "The Chodak"! They have had this ancient race before going back to Star Trek: TNG - A Final Unity PC game. They were also used in Star Trek: TNG - Echoes From The Past as the race that took over the SS Nakitomi.

Here is a link http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Chodak that describes the history of The Chodak! I would love to see this species come back because their ships called juggernauts were awesome!

[Silverspar]

I think it is going to be "The Chodak"! They have had this ancient race before going back to Star Trek: TNG - A Final Unity PC game. They were also used in Star Trek: TNG - Echoes From The Past as the race that took over the SS Nakitomi.

Here is a link http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Chodak that describes the history of The Chodak! I would love to see this species come back because their ships called juggernauts were awesome!

Thing is, Cryptic, I believe, said this was an ancient enemy that has origins in actual canon. The most likely candidates are the Andromedans or the Iconians, with the Tkonians as follow up. That doesn't exclude other possibilities, of course, though the Iconians would probably be the source of the Doomsday Machine (the Iconian gateways used Neutronium, which is what comprised the entire hull of the Doomsday Machine).

[Whodeydiesel]

Thing is, Cryptic, I believe, said this was an ancient enemy that has origins in actual canon. The most likely candidates are the Andromedans or the Iconians, with the Tkonians as follow up. That doesn't exclude other possibilities, of course, though the Iconians would probably be the source of the Doomsday Machine (the Iconian gateways used Neutronium, which is what comprised the entire hull of the Doomsday Machine).

Hmmmmm, interesting! Thanks for the info! I think it's great that they are going to bring a species back from actual canon! I would certainly like to see the Iconians mainly due to there "stargate-like" technology.

[The_Padre]

Thing is, Cryptic, I believe, said this was an ancient enemy that has origins in actual canon. The most likely candidates are the Andromedans or the Iconians, with the Tkonians as follow up. That doesn't exclude other possibilities, of course, though the Iconians would probably be the source of the Doomsday Machine (the Iconian gateways used Neutronium, which is what comprised the entire hull of the Doomsday Machine).

Or maybe built by rival empires, much like Trek species in our era tend to have similar technologies it is possible that these ancient civilizations used Neutronium in all their constructions. The Doomsday Machine doesn't really fit in with how the Iconians controlled their empire, with their gateways they could just land a massive invasion force or weapons of mass destruction anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously, the Doomsday Machine seems a little low tech and clumsy by their standards. Still it could have been a really early weapon they built and was just left to wander about.

[Silverspar]

Or maybe built by rival empires, much like Trek species in our era tend to have similar technologies it is possible that these ancient civilizations used Neutronium in all their constructions. The Doomsday Machine doesn't really fit in with how the Iconians controlled their empire, with their gateways they could just land a massive invasion force or weapons of mass destruction anywhere in the galaxy instantaneously, the Doomsday Machine seems a little low tech and clumsy by their standards. Still it could have been a really early weapon they built and was just left to wander about.

Oh I wouldn't call a machine capable of destroying a planet low tech or clumsy. In fact, I think I would place that actually right on the proper scale. Build a machine to obliterate and remove any obstacles, that way your invasion forces have little opposition. But that's all speculation at best.

[IG_Slayer]

According to the Dev's in NY, there is going to be Federation alliance conflict vs. Klingon alliance conflict. In addition to that there will be a new threat that will spread galaxy wide and will be the revival of an "ancient threat."

I was going to try to guess what that threat is. My guess is the Prometheans. What do you guys think?

The Second Dominion War is at hand!!!!

[chris127]

hope its romulans

[Starship01]

I think it mit be the BORG that is the threat coming back

Captain Boyle :cool:

[TruthSeer]

*running around flaying his arms around like a mad man* Da Hur'q are coming, Da Hur'q are coming!!!!!!!!

I would love to see the Hur'q.

While that would be a cool idea, this poses a problem:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hur%27q



But according to the shows they never give that much information on them. Maybe they could use the premise of Star Trek: Invasion to bring them into the game. Aren't wormholes a wonderful thing?

[CherryTerri]

According to the Dev's in NY, there is going to be Federation alliance conflict vs. Klingon alliance conflict. In addition to that there will be a new threat that will spread galaxy wide and will be the revival of an "ancient threat."

I was going to try to guess what that threat is. My guess is the Prometheans. What do you guys think?

Very angry mother-in-laws

[Jamisicus6]

What about the Kazon?

They could have a small base just beyond both federation and Klingon borders. They could have got there by being hunted down by the Borg after they stole a transwarp coil? The entire Kazon Race united under one banner... Now that's scary!

[matt4tay]

I believe the Terran Empire. We managed to get into there universe, whats stopping them from coming into ours??

[CherryTerri]

I believe the Terran Empire. We managed to get into there universe, whats stopping them from coming into ours??

You know, there have been quite a few books about crossovers ... I wonder if Spock in the MU was able to destroy the Empire ... (I never followed any show after ST:TNG .. ugh)

But would be interesting ... more silly humans to defeat!

[matt4tay]

You know, there have been quite a few books about crossovers ... I wonder if Spock in the MU was able to destroy the Empire ... (I never followed any show after ST:TNG .. ugh)

But would be interesting ... more silly humans to defeat!

It wouldn't be too hard for the devs to create them, they have the basic structure for a Terran fleet, just copy UFP. Rather simple really. lol

[Sevenblade]

I would love to see the Hur'q.



But according to the shows they never give that much information on them. Maybe they could use the premise of Star Trek: Invasion to bring them into the game. Aren't wormholes a wonderful thing?

Wormholes are a wonderful thing. In fact, they postulate that the Hur'q came to Qon'os through the Bajoran wormhole. However, as I've stated twice previously, they're all dead now. Completely extinct. While I agree with many people on this thread that they'd be cool as a returning enemy, it's hard for them to do that if there's none of them left. Reread the Memory Alpha article and you'll see what I mean.

I have to agree with Silverspar and say that the Iconians, Kelvans (Andromedans), and T'kon are the most likely suspsects here. They qualify as ancient easily (most were introduced in TOS era, and were established empires long before then), and also have a chance of still being around to return, unlike the Hur'q. Not to mention, they seem to be substantially more powerful. The Klingons were able to drive off the Hur'q back before they were even in a space faring state at the time, so the Hur'q couldn't have been that strong. In fact, because they crushed the Hur'q, that's why the Klingons were able to catapult to being a space traveling race in the first place.

[The_Heretic]

It's Apollo, he's gotten bored and come back for revenge.

[HyorD]

Hey, what if it's Sisko? I mean, some of you might argue that he's hardly ancient, and that he'd never harm us to begin with, but to that I just say...

...it isn't linear.

[STO]

well we KNOW that the Romulans, Borg and some of the other suggestions so far will be in the game. The hint was from the words of the developers an "ancient threat." In my opinion this is referring to something that existed prior to the TOS to NexNeg/Voyager episodes.

With some additional thought, I came to realize that we just do not know yet what "ancient threat" means. It could just be referring to ancient in relation to the timeframe of the game which is far after Voyager. If that is the case, then my guess is Species 8472 is the threat.

[matt4tay]

well we KNOW that the Romulans, Borg and some of the other suggestions so far will be in the game. The hint was from the words of the developers an "ancient threat." In my opinion this is referring to something that existed prior to the TOS to NexNeg/Voyager episodes.

With some additional thought, I came to realize that we just do not know yet what "ancient threat" means. It could just be referring to ancient in relation to the timeframe of the game which is far after Voyager. If that is the case, then my guess is Species 8472 is the threat.

Are we not at peace with Species 8472??

[The_Padre]

Are we not at peace with Specues 8472??

Species 8472 was mentioned in a Game Informer article last year where they saw a mission with them being a threat to both the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

If we remember from Voyager: The 8472 'Boothby' responded to Janeway that he cannot promise anything; also that his superiors will hit the roof when they hear of this: the very idea of peace with Humans? But he'd tell them what has happened, and perhaps that will win some of them over. Janeway also expressed hope that the process would lead to full diplomatic relations.

There was no guarantee that any of this would work out; I guess we now have our answer.

[NeoWolf]

My money is on some son of Khan and more Genetically advanced Super Men vying for domination

[SirReginaldo]

My money is on some son of Khan and more Genetically advanced Super Men vying for domination

Thank you for support, cause their "ancient" ish, hell they predate the NX-Enterprise. It would make for an interesting reunion for the man, and their son.

edit
Sounds like Battle Star Galactica:D

[demonic25]

Yeah i'm thinking it's the borg...it just makes soo much sense.

[Dext]

Tribbles For the WIN!!

[Dext]

Yeah i'm thinking it's the borg...it just makes soo much sense.

I would say the Borg but we all ready know there in the game so I would think it is something there not ready to say yet.

[TruthSeer]

Its the Daleks.

[TheFeelOfCotton]

PLEASE let it be the Tribbles!!!!!!!!!!!!

[matt4tay]

Its the Daleks.

OMG!!! Starfleet is goin to be attacked by giant flying pepper pots!

NOOOOOOO!

[Tain]

I don't think it would be the Iconians or anyone similar. Probably too obscure for the game, but I would love to be wrong. Its most likely the borg, though I would favor an enemy with more personality.

[HyorD]

I don't think it would be the Iconians or anyone similar. Probably too obscure for the game, but I would love to be wrong. Its most likely the borg, though I would favor an enemy with more personality.They probably want a civilization that we don't already know too much about, as it gives them freedom in portraying them. As for the Borg: They keep on mentioning the Borg, and we've even seen Borg vessels and drones in the gameplay trailer; this threat, they say, is somewhat of a mystery, and the fact that Borg will be in the game is no mystery.

Its the Daleks.Borg: WE ARE THE BORG! LOWER YOUR SHIELD AND SURRENDER YOUR SHIPS! IF YOU RESIST YOU WILL BE PUNISHED!
Daleks: RE-SIS-TANCE IS USE-LESS!
Borg: RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!
Daleks: EX-TER-MI-NATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE!
Borg: WE WILL ADD YOUR TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN!
Daleks: PUT HIM IN THE CUR-RY! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q)

[TruthSeer]

I don't think it would be the Iconians or anyone similar. Probably too obscure for the game, but I would love to be wrong. Its most likely the borg, though I would favor an enemy with more personality.

If it is the Borg that would be really boring since we've already been shown that they are in the game.

[STO]

They probably want a civilization that we don't already know too much about, as it gives them freedom in portraying them. As for the Borg: They keep on mentioning the Borg, and we've even seen Borg vessels and drones in the gameplay trailer; this threat, they say, is somewhat of a mystery, and the fact that Borg will be in the game is no mystery.

Borg: WE ARE THE BORG! LOWER YOUR SHIELD AND SURRENDER YOUR SHIPS! IF YOU RESIST YOU WILL BE PUNISHED!
Daleks: RE-SIS-TANCE IS USE-LESS!
Borg: RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!
Daleks: EX-TER-MI-NATE! EX-TER-MIN-ATE!
Borg: WE WILL ADD YOUR TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN!
Daleks: PUT HIM IN THE CUR-RY! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n88tZQc4Q)

"PUT HIM IN THE CURRY!" HAHAHAHAH

[cocoa-jin]

The questions is weither the threat will be one from ancient times or a threat that is ancient in terms of its existance(but could technically be new to us).

[Loekii]

im gonna do ahead and say the Borg.

since they were discovered during the Enterprise era then add a few hundred years untill the TNG era see's them again and then again add a few more years on for Voyager and First Contact and you will have alot of years involving the borg and thus "Ancient" plus the fact we have been seeing a ton of Borg ships in the trailer :D

I agree -- not to mention their presence in the video.

[DJDizzy]

I confess, its me.

Seriously though, there is such a wide range of choices, the star trek universe is litered with powerful and mysterious empries that you can't go a few light years without bumping into one.

My geuss is the First Federation. Those guys were scary.

when i was little and saw star trek for the first time, i think i was about 6 or 7 years old, the first federation doll scared the sh*t out of me

[USS_Parallax]

Or not :rolleyes: Try looking at my post right above yours...

I looked and nothing counters anything. So, they vanished. That doesn't mean they won't come back. Don't assume they're dead or anything. :)

[Azurian]

I truely believe it's the Iconians.

1) They mysteriously disappeared (which leaves an open door for storytelling).
2) They are ancient (disappearing 200,000 years ago).
3) They were regarded as plenty evil.

Right there is enough justification that they are talking about the Iconians.


Other possibilities is the H'urq, which they disappeared 1,200 years ago and continuity still allows an open storyline, for we have no idea what happened to them.

The T'kon, which is an ancient civilization of 600,000 years old. However, after Riker's interaction with Portal, I really don't get the impression that they were evil. So I'm ruling them out.


The Borg? I highly doubt it, because why go on about ancient threats and have promos of the Borg? That's not logical at all. Besides, we are pretty much Borged out. :p

8472? How can they be an ancient threat if they were only introduced recently?


All in all, my bets on the Iconians.

[TruthSeer]

But the thing with the Iconians is that the TNG episode with the portals kind of gave the impressions that the information about their history was distorted, and they might not have been the conquerers they were thought to be.

I'd like to see the Hur'q simply because we don't see many insectoid species in ST.

[Loekii]

Would they use a relatively obscure race as a major threat in the initial launch? Not everyone is hardcore trekkies, and thus would be clueless/not attracted to the trekkiness of those other races.

'An ancient threat' = Trekkie trivia question, instead of some iconic enemy? The average gamer recognizes The Borg, but not the Iconians or H'cul.

[TruthSeer]

Would they use a relatively obscure race as a major threat in the initial launch? Not everyone is hardcore trekkies, and thus would be clueless/not attracted to the trekkiness of those other races.

'An ancient threat' = Trekkie trivia question, instead of some iconic enemy? The average gamer recognizes The Borg, but not the Iconians or H'cul.

But the question becomes would they tease us with the notion of an ancient threat and then turn around and say "oh, by the way its the enemy you've seen since the first trailer and that we've constantly mentioned as being part of the game."?

[Loekii]

Which would be the lessor of the two evils?

Imo, the mistake of wording is the lessor to effectively creating a non-iconic race from an obscure reference in one or two episodes. Maybe as an episode or two content, but not as a major theme along the lines of iconic enenies like borg, dominion, romulans, etc.

Will we get some geeky nerd to pop up in a window and regail the history on an 'ancient enemy' that doesnt even have much more than a paragraph in the wiki?

[TruthSeer]

Which would be the lessor of the two evils?

Imo, the mistake of wording is the lessor to effectively creating a non-iconic race from an obscure reference in one or two episodes. Maybe as an episode or two content, but not as a major theme along the lines of iconic enenies like borg, dominion, romulans, etc.



The reason I want an actual "ancient threat" is so we can have both. We know the Borg are in game. That and I don't see implementing an obscure race as a major turn off for players. Anyone who decides not to play or to quit will have a lot of thing higher up on their list then that.

[The_Padre]

I truely believe it's the Iconians.

1) They mysteriously disappeared (which leaves an open door for storytelling).
2) They are ancient (disappearing 200,000 years ago).
3) They were regarded as plenty evil.

Right there is enough justification that they are talking about the Iconians.


Other possibilities is the H'urq, which they disappeared 1,200 years ago and continuity still allows an open storyline, for we have no idea what happened to them.

The T'kon, which is an ancient civilization of 600,000 years old. However, after Riker's interaction with Portal, I really don't get the impression that they were evil. So I'm ruling them out.


The Borg? I highly doubt it, because why go on about ancient threats and have promos of the Borg? That's not logical at all. Besides, we are pretty much Borged out. :p

8472? How can they be an ancient threat if they were only introduced recently?


All in all, my bets on the Iconians.

It says an ancient threat, as the Borg put it: Species 8472 are at the apex of biological evolution, that suggests a species that has existed for an extraordinarily long time, even ancient you might say.

[Azurian]

The reason I want an actual "ancient threat" is so we can have both. We know the Borg are in game. That and I don't see implementing an obscure race as a major turn off for players. Anyone who decides not to play or to quit will have a lot of thing higher up on their list then that.

All the more reason for the Devs to create a story around them.

It says an ancient threat, as the Borg put it: Species 8472 are at the apex of biological evolution, that suggests a species that has existed for an extraordinarily long time, even ancient you might say.

Dunno about you, but everytime I think of the word "Ancient" when it comes to Sci-Fi, it usually means "people that are long gone, before the current age".

The Borg and 8472 are a modern threat, not an ancient one.

[HyorD]

How was it the Iconians were described again? "Demons if air and darkness"? Sounds plenty threatening to me ;)The questions is weither the threat will be one from ancient times or a threat that is ancient in terms of its existance(but could technically be new to us).They've said it's from canon (or in line with it, anyway), so it won't be completely new to us.I'd like to see the Hur'q simply because we don't see many insectoid species in ST.Too many, if you ask me ;)The T'kon, which is an ancient civilization of 600,000 years old. However, after Riker's interaction with Portal, I really don't get the impression that they were evil. So I'm ruling them out.Flat out evil enemies aren't very interesting; there needs to be a reason they attack us.
The Tkon had an empire, which may very well have been the result of conquest. Maybe the Guardian's little chat with Riker has roused them...
...but I'd still prefer the Iconians ;)

[Azurian]

The Tkon had an empire, which may very well have been the result of conquest. Maybe the Guardian's little chat with Riker has roused them...
...but I'd still prefer the Iconians ;)

True, but from what little we know, they were a benevolent race. And was destroyed when their Sun went Supernova due to an alien entity.

To be honest, if the Iconians are the ancient threat, I'd love if we had to go to Portal and get some T'Kon technology to defeat them.

[The_Padre]

All the more reason for the Devs to create a story around them.



Dunno about you, but everytime I think of the word "Ancient" when it comes to Sci-Fi, it usually means "people that are long gone, before the current age".

The Borg and 8472 are a modern threat, not an ancient one.

How are you defining "modern threat" just out of interest? By the time of STO the Borg would have been around for at least 900 years, Species 8472 have been in their fluidic space realm for an extremely long time since they've evolved well beyond any lifeform compared to those in our galaxy and lest we forget the the Dominion have been around for over two thousand years.

[SirReginaldo]

Maybe it is the borg, but more like an extension... Think, think, think.... Is there any prominent antagonist that survived or something that created the borg. It would make sense then to have seen them in the game play trailer in such numbers. Please if anyone has a guess or knows what the borg were originally, like some metal spikey thing or something add into this.:D

To explain what I mean by "antagonist", I mean like a villan like character who say was assimilated or like the borg chick in the movie that could be at the top of players worries.

[The_Padre]

Maybe it is the borg, but more like an extension... Think, think, think.... Is there any prominent antagonist that survived or something that created the borg. It would make sense then to have seen them in the game play trailer in such numbers. Please if anyone has a guess or knows what the borg were originally, like some metal spikey thing or something add into this.:D

Don't know the only species to have encountered the Borg in the distant past were the Vaadwaur, and even then the Borg had assimilated only a handful of star systems.

[SirReginaldo]

How are you defining "modern threat" just out of interest? By the time of STO the Borg would have been around for at least 900 years, Species 8472 have been in their fluidic space realm for an extremely long time since they've evolved well beyond any lifeform compared to those in our galaxy and lest we forget the the Dominion have been around for over two thousand years.

I would like to think it is the dominion, but, even better would be that speices that the dominion feared... Cannot remember anything about the dominion other than their ability to disable ships, and they blew up the Defiant >_<

[matt4tay]

I would like to think it is the dominion, but, even better would be that speices that the dominion feared... Cannot remember anything about the dominion other than their ability to disable ships, and they blew up the Defiant >_<

Nothing is actually canon on how the Borg started, but this explains several versions of how the started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)#Origin

[SirReginaldo]

Don't know the only species to have encountered the Borg in the distant past were the Vaadwaur, and even then the Borg had assimilated only a handful of star systems.

What is their origin if you know? Like were they humanoids or full machine, cause maybe its their creators... Kinda going out on a limb:D

[Swizy]

Maybe some race that Voyager ****ed off while they were in the delta quadrant... :)

[SirReginaldo]

Maybe some race that Voyager ****ed off while they were in the delta quadrant... :)

Thats highly plausible, but ancient threat by our terms, or ancient as in they are old and threatening :D

[Azurian]

How are you defining "modern threat" just out of interest? By the time of STO the Borg would have been around for at least 900 years, Species 8472 have been in their fluidic space realm for an extremely long time since they've evolved well beyond any lifeform compared to those in our galaxy and lest we forget the the Dominion have been around for over two thousand years.

All you are doing is saying, "They are old, therefore they are ancient".

So go ahead and think that, because those races have been mentioned being in STO, and I guarantee you that neither one of those you listed above are going to be that "Ancient Threat".

[Aerelleus]

its gonna be V'GER!!! wanting to find more info from the creator or from Kirk unit or to get with some other unit lol

[Crux]

I'm hoping there's a Hologram revolt.

[Rattletrap]

-Herq, Tholian, Augments...lots of possibilities, perhaps we will see hints as we get closer to open beta in the "Path to..." series of messages.

Rattletrap, personally rooting for Gandhi to crawl outta the grave and lead a band of Mizarians in a series of sit-ins and hunger strikes

[Ricosuave]

Maybe Khan Noonien Singh had some of his crew survive and trive on a different area of Ceti Alpha VI.

[The_Padre]

All you are doing is saying, "They are old, therefore they are ancient".

So go ahead and think that, because those races have been mentioned being in STO, and I guarantee you that neither one of those you listed above are going to be that "Ancient Threat".

Actually that wasn't the point of my post, it was however more to do with what you said about new threats.

[Rekkert]

when i was little and saw star trek for the first time, i think i was about 6 or 7 years old, the first federation doll scared the sh*t out of me

lol, same here, I first saw that episode when I was 3 or 4 (1997), I remember having nightmares about it for months.

I think this new threat might be the Tholians, they are ancient, acording to the only info we have on theme they are form another galaxy and they dominate that entire galaxy. (non-canon, but again, the only info we have).

Or maybe the builders of the Dyson Sphere. We don't know who they are but they are very ancient.

[Sevenblade]

I looked and nothing counters anything. So, they vanished. That doesn't mean they won't come back. Don't assume they're dead or anything. :)

Then you didn't read it very well...click the Memory Alpha article. It explictly states them to be extinct. Not vanished, extinct. I'm not assuming anything. A canon reference site flat out says they're dead. Unless someone edited that article wrong, which I'm not inclined to believe, then they are gone. I don't understand why everyone keeps ignoring this, even though I've said it 4 times in this thread now :rolleyes: /sigh

[Sevenblade]

I truely believe it's the Iconians.

1) They mysteriously disappeared (which leaves an open door for storytelling).
2) They are ancient (disappearing 200,000 years ago).
3) They were regarded as plenty evil.

Right there is enough justification that they are talking about the Iconians.


Other possibilities is the H'urq, which they disappeared 1,200 years ago and continuity still allows an open storyline, for we have no idea what happened to them.

The T'kon, which is an ancient civilization of 600,000 years old. However, after Riker's interaction with Portal, I really don't get the impression that they were evil. So I'm ruling them out.


The Borg? I highly doubt it, because why go on about ancient threats and have promos of the Borg? That's not logical at all. Besides, we are pretty much Borged out. :p

8472? How can they be an ancient threat if they were only introduced recently?


All in all, my bets on the Iconians.

This is almost exactly what I agree with, except for the Hur'q part. As I've said, Memory Alpha states them to be extinct, so contrary to what most people wish (including myself), they shouldn't be returning as the enemy.

I think both you and HyorD have equally valuable point. However, while they didn't seem like it, judging by what they left behind (Portal), the T'kon could have been fairly militaristic, explaining why they had such a large empire. And note that they are called an Empire. Most of the time, these don't spring up through good will, but conquest. Keep that in mind when evaluating them.

In my mind, likelihood of being the "ancient enemy"

1st: Iconians
2nd: Kelvans
3rd: T'kon
4th: Hur'q (only because the developers might not be aware of the fact that they're extinct, much like most people on these boards seem to be)
5th: Tholians

6th: Borg
7th: Species 8472

The last two I only put here because some people are really rooting for it. But as Azurian stated, these don't make sense as the "ancient enemy".

[Nytok]

I hope it doesn't come from ENT. I hated it so much I had to stop watching and i'm not planning on trying ever again, unless the ancient enemy is from that show. Personally, I think it has to be a species found during TOS. They said it's ancient, and TNG/DS9/VOY are only a little bit more than 2 generations old at the most during the time of 2409 (generation=20 years).

[Silverspar]

Well, how about watching it and youw ills ee Enterprise was Star Trek at it's core, even the inconsistantcies were true blue Trek.

[Dext]

I would like to know what this could be but we may not know until we get in an play the game.

[Azurian]

This is almost exactly what I agree with, except for the Hur'q part. As I've said, Memory Alpha states them to be extinct, so contrary to what most people wish (including myself), they shouldn't be returning as the enemy.

I think both you and HyorD have equally valuable point. However, while they didn't seem like it, judging by what they left behind (Portal), the T'kon could have been fairly militaristic, explaining why they had such a large empire. And note that they are called an Empire. Most of the time, these don't spring up through good will, but conquest. Keep that in mind when evaluating them.

In my mind, likelihood of being the "ancient enemy"

1st: Iconians
2nd: Kelvans
3rd: T'kon
4th: Hur'q (only because the developers might not be aware of the fact that they're extinct, much like most people on these boards seem to be)
5th: Tholians

6th: Borg
7th: Species 8472

The last two I only put here because some people are really rooting for it. But as Azurian stated, these don't make sense as the "ancient enemy".

Well I wouldn't say the Hur'q are gone for good. Especially how they were reborn in the Novel "The Left Hand of Destiny" and were also a threat in the TNG game "Invasion".

As for the T'kon, because of the word "Empire" is used doesn't mean its militaristic in nature. By definition, Empires are a group of nations under single sovereignty. Which are typically led by an Emperor or an Empress, hence the name "Empire".

And if you do't mind. But why do you have the Tholian's on the list? Last I checked they just liked to be left alone? :p

[SirReginaldo]

Well I wouldn't say the Hur'q are gone for good. Especially how they were reborn in the Novel "The Left Hand of Destiny" and were also a threat in the TNG game "Invasion".

As for the T'kon, because of the word "Empire" is used doesn't mean its militaristic in nature. By definition, Empires are a group of nations under single sovereignty. Which are typically led by an Emperor or an Empress, hence the name "Empire".

And if you do't mind. But why do you have the Tholian's on the list? Last I checked they just liked to be left alone? :p

Maybe in their quest to be left alone they want to kill everything else to be left alone :D

[Loekii]

Tholians do not have the resources to be a unifying threat -- its like Switzerland declaring war on the rest of the world.

I think people are over emphasizing the term 'ancient'.

[Sevenblade]

Well I wouldn't say the Hur'q are gone for good. Especially how they were reborn in the Novel "The Left Hand of Destiny" and were also a threat in the TNG game "Invasion".

As for the T'kon, because of the word "Empire" is used doesn't mean its militaristic in nature. By definition, Empires are a group of nations under single sovereignty. Which are typically led by an Emperor or an Empress, hence the name "Empire".

And if you do't mind. But why do you have the Tholian's on the list? Last I checked they just liked to be left alone? :p

I would. As far as at least canon info goes, the Hur'q are gone, dead, extinct, kaput. I'm not talking gone, like we don't know where the went, and are assuming they went back into hiding in the Gamma Quadrant. I mean completely dead. I'll quote it one more time from Memory Alpha (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hur%27q):

The Hur'q (a Klingon term meaning "outsider") was the name given by the Klingons to a now-extinct species that flourished approximately a thousand years ago.

Now, they could be resurrected, theoretically. Maybe Kahless' bat'leth has some ancient Hur'q DNA on it or something like that, and they're cloned. I don't know, haven't read that book, but if you could inform me how they used the Hur'q, that'd be interesting. But I still see it as highly improbable for them to come back, let alone be any kind of threat. Plus, the Hur'q lean to much towards being a Klingon problem. Sure, they might pose a threat to the Federation as well, but the emphasis would be placed on the Klingon side. That wouldn't be fair to one side or the other (depending on your viewpoint. Some Feddies might think it's not fair that they don't get an enemy to fight, some Klingons might not think it fair that the opposing side isn't constantly attacked).

And yes, Empire does not specifically imply militarism, just like Kingdom does not either. However, as you stated, empires are multiple nations under a single sovereignty. In a system that's not built on cooperation and diplomacy, like a confederacy or a large republic, usually the way to enforce and hold this sovereignty together is through force or the military, to put down revolts and the like. So we can glean a few tentative assumptions just from the name and impression of the T'kon, if not necessarily proven theories. I'm inclined to believe that they at least had a large military force, even if they weren't aggressive with it. If they came back angry at the galaxy, they could be a formidable threat.


And yeah, the Tholians are pushing it a bit, which is why they're at the bottom of the list. I just put them in there to fit with some other prevalent theories on these boards. They seem formidable and fairly technologically advanced (we haven't seen if the Federation has a counter to the Web yet. So far, the only way to survive it is get out before it's spun). Also, the Tholians have been established as having a history of hostility with the Federation.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tholian
Later aggressions
Contact with the Tholians over the next century would be sporadic. In 2353, the Tholians destroyed a Federation starbase. The only survivor of this attack was Kyle Riker, the father of Starfleet Commander William T. Riker. (TNG: "The Icarus Factor")

This attack was said to have taken place during "The Tholian Conflict," placing it within a larger political context and implying that the incident was not isolated.
The frequency of Tholian attacks would remain sufficient enough for Starfleet to develop Tholian-based battle simulations. In 2355, during one such simulation, William T. Riker used a notable strategy to calculate a sensory blind spot on a Tholian vessel. (TNG: "Peak Performance")

They would remain a threat well into the 2360s, when it was anticipated by Klingon Special Emissary K'Ehleyr that if a Klingon Civil War were to break out in 2367, the Tholians might eventually be involved. This fear, however, did not come to light when the civil war broke out months later. (TNG: "Reunion")

During several confrontations with the Federation, Tholian behavior could best be described as aggressive and territorial. They rarely advanced very far from their home system and would frequently annex surrounding systems outside of the Assembly, to further isolate their territory. They are known to kill outsiders caught trespassing in their territory.

They satisfy the ancient part, especially as some non-canon sources place them as split-offs from an advanced civilization in another galaxy. Even without that, though, they've been around since at least ENT. They don't have a large territory or seemingly large military (we have no idea here. Have to presume that they don't from little visual evidence of any), but they seem constantly aggressive, so I guess they could expand and build themselves up to being a power in the Quadrants.

[Teleon]

I think the Kelvin Empire would be a nice surprise! However, their fleet had left a long, long time ago! Who is to say that their ships would still be able to compete with the newer Federation and Klingon Vessels>?

The Borg are a true threat. However, I don’t think that they are an ancient lurking kind of threat. Nor would they be much of a surprise.

The Dominion, no! I just don’t see them making being a threat to both the Klingons and Federation.

The Romulan’s seem to be tied up in their own affairs as usual.

[loyaltrekie]

Tholians do not have the resources to be a unifying threat -- its like Switzerland declaring war on the rest of the world.

I think people are over emphasizing the term 'ancient'.

Quoted for the great analogy.

[LunaticFringer]

In this case I'd rather it be something completely original. A threat no one knows about is a lot less likely to be picked apart, canon-wise, if it is exclusive to the game's story in this case. At least that's my opinion on it.

[Kitharia]

The Preservers maybe? They're more ancient than every race ever existed ain't they? And if they got ****ed for some reason, I imagine they'll be very strong...if the first signs of the enemy are runed giant obelisks, I'll say I told you so!

[HyorD]

Tholians do not have the resources to be a unifying threat -- its like Switzerland declaring war on the rest of the world.

I think people are over emphasizing the term 'ancient'.QFTI would. As far as at least canon info goes, the Hur'q are gone, dead, extinct, kaput. I'm not talking gone, like we don't know where the went, and are assuming they went back into hiding in the Gamma Quadrant. I mean completely dead.

Well, I wouldn't rule a civilization out just because it's been declared dead. First of all, all we know is based on the sometimes very limited knowledge of the characters on the show (they believed the Iconians to be extinct, too, didn't they...?), and second... ...things just don't stay dead in Trek, for better and for worse (usually worse).

So, along those lines... ...couldn't it be the Swedish Empire? I mean, maybe they just pretended to lose all their influence after a series of huge military defeats, but really they discovered a way to travel into parallel universes? They started conquering worlds in parallel universes using their extremely advanced spaceships, but got lost along the way. Now, they've found their way back home, and their eyes are set on Earth... ...and Qo'noS, for some mysterious reason!
Actually, come to think of it, that's like the only thing that would make any sense; I'll bet that's what Cryptic have in mind.

[Azurian]

I would. As far as at least canon info goes, the Hur'q are gone, dead, extinct, kaput. I'm not talking gone, like we don't know where the went, and are assuming they went back into hiding in the Gamma Quadrant. I mean completely dead. I'll quote it one more time from Memory Alpha (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Hur%27q):

Memory Beta: (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hur'q)

The Hur'q were a race of aliens who invaded Qo'noS approximately a thousand years ago. When they were forced out, they took with them many Klingon treasures, including the Sword of Kahless.

In the aftermath of the invasion, the hero Ch'gran oversaw the construction of a fleet of seven starships using captured Hur'q facilities and technology.

The word "Hur'q" later became the word for "outsider" in Klingonese. (DS9: episode "The Sword of Kahless", TLE novel The Art of the Impossible)

Gothmara used Hur'q DNA to create a personal army, which she used to overthrow Martok in 2376.. The Hurq had huge heads, black eyes, long grey tounges and narrow lips. They had wide shoulders, bearing two arms with three fingers and two thumbs each. They average Hurq stood a full meter taller than most Klingons. (The Left Hand of Destiny)

It was later discovered that the H'urq were an ancient race of insectoid scavengers, whose insectile physiology was based that of army ants and the armor of the samurai, that plundered much of the galaxy before the majority of their race were trapped in another dimension. With most of their fleet lost, the H'urq would eventually vanish but they did leave elite units of Kam'Jathae warriors in stasis, to awaken at a time to bring the H'urq civilization back to glory. They were defeated by the crew of the USS Typhon. (TNG game: Invasion)


And yes, Empire does not specifically imply militarism, just like Kingdom does not either. However, as you stated, empires are multiple nations under a single sovereignty. In a system that's not built on cooperation and diplomacy, like a confederacy or a large republic, usually the way to enforce and hold this sovereignty together is through force or the military, to put down revolts and the like. So we can glean a few tentative assumptions just from the name and impression of the T'kon, if not necessarily proven theories. I'm inclined to believe that they at least had a large military force, even if they weren't aggressive with it. If they came back angry at the galaxy, they could be a formidable threat.

But yet there isn't anything to justify it. Look at the Federation where they are essentially an Empire, but instead of conquest, it's built on mutual understanding. And Empires can do the same in being built on mutual understanding.

And yeah, the Tholians are pushing it a bit, which is why they're at the bottom of the list. I just put them in there to fit with some other prevalent theories on these boards. They seem formidable and fairly technologically advanced (we haven't seen if the Federation has a counter to the Web yet. So far, the only way to survive it is get out before it's spun). Also, the Tholians have been established as having a history of hostility with the Federation.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tholian

They satisfy the ancient part, especially as some non-canon sources place them as split-offs from an advanced civilization in another galaxy. Even without that, though, they've been around since at least ENT. They don't have a large territory or seemingly large military (we have no idea here. Have to presume that they don't from little visual evidence of any), but they seem constantly aggressive, so I guess they could expand and build themselves up to being a power in the Quadrants.

Yeah, but like your own quote said, they are territorial, not expansionist.

[RandomRedshirt]

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar....

Horde vs Alliance

But also...

Horde/Alliance vs. Sunwell Plateau
Horde/Alliance vs. Burning Legion
Horde/Alliance vs. Scourge / Lich King
Horde/Alliance vs. Illidan
Aldor/Scryer vs. Illidan's Forces and Allies.

It's been done.

It's the whole "We are enemies but we share a common threat" angle.

[Loekii]

Hmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar....

Horde vs Alliance

But also...

Horde/Alliance vs. Sunwell Plateau
Horde/Alliance vs. Burning Legion
Horde/Alliance vs. Scourge / Lich King
Horde/Alliance vs. Illidan
Aldor/Scryer vs. Illidan's Forces and Allies.

It's been done.


Like most things in fiction, it has been done way before WoW. Just open a history book - or google it.

[Skelly]

It will be the Talosians lead by Capt. Pike. He was the best Enterprise captain and with his anger and rage the Talosians will destroy both the Federation and Klingon Empire with their powers of illusion.

[RandomRedshirt]

Like most things in fiction, it has been done way before WoW. Just open a history book - or google it.


Agreed.

However, this particular instance offers a lesson in contradiction.

The Federation and Klingon Empire were allies. For some reason, they stopped being allies, and are in conflict. However, new threat emerges, and they are now faced with a common foe, but aren't allied.

Where is the logic in that?

I have always said the "renewed conflict" angle between the Federation and Klingons didn't make much sense, and this new common foe element reinforces that. If only because it would have made more sense for the Klingons and Federation to renew the Khitomer Accords to face this new threat, same as they did after the Klingon-Cardassian Conflict.

But if they did that, then PVP wouldn't work.

This is a prime example of trying to reshape the IP to fit gameplay rather than shaping the gameplay to the IP.

[The_Padre]

Agreed.

However, this particular instance offers a lesson in contradiction.

The Federation and Klingon Empire were allies. For some reason, they stopped being allies, and are in conflict. However, new threat emerges, and they are now faced with a common foe, but aren't allied.

Where is the logic in that?

I have always said the "renewed conflict" angle between the Federation and Klingons didn't make much sense, and this new common foe element reinforces that. If only because it would have made more sense for the Klingons and Federation to renew the Khitomer Accords to face this new threat, same as they did after the Klingon-Cardassian Conflict.

But if they did that, then PVP wouldn't work.

This is a prime example of trying to reshape the IP to fit gameplay rather than shaping the gameplay to the IP.

It is no different than the Romulans in DS9, they allied themselves with the Federation and the Klingons against the Dominion yet after the war was over it was business as usual, hostilities between the Romulans and the Federation/Klingons continued.

[Teleon]

Agreed.

However, this particular instance offers a lesson in contradiction.

The Federation and Klingon Empire were allies. For some reason, they stopped being allies, and are in conflict. However, new threat emerges, and they are now faced with a common foe, but aren't allied.

Where is the logic in that?

I have always said the "renewed conflict" angle between the Federation and Klingons didn't make much sense, and this new common foe element reinforces that. If only because it would have made more sense for the Klingons and Federation to renew the Khitomer Accords to face this new threat, same as they did after the Klingon-Cardassian Conflict.

But if they did that, then PVP wouldn't work.

This is a prime example of trying to reshape the IP to fit gameplay rather than shaping the gameplay to the IP.

Very true!

However, the old saying: the enemy of my enemy is my friend bares fruit here!

In this case… even if the Federation and Klingon’s are in a state of war… a new threat to both would conceivably force them to work together against a common enemy- even though they are enemies themselves. It has to do with survival. Politically, the Federation and Klingon’s could remain in a state of war whilst working together against a superior and greater enemy than each other. Theoretically the would agree to work together on one front whilst making no other agreements or accords about the conflict between them. The Klingons have honor and would honor the agreement whilst the federation would honor it in hopes for renewed peace.

[RandomRedshirt]

Very true!

However, the old saying: the enemy of my enemy is my friend bares fruit here!

In this case… even if the Federation and Klingon’s are in a state of war… a new threat to both would conceivably force them to work together against a common enemy- even though they are enemies themselves. It has to do with survival. Politically, the Federation and Klingon’s could remain in a state of war whilst working together against a superior and greater enemy than each other. Theoretically the would agree to work together on one front whilst making no other agreements or accords about the conflict between them. The Klingons have honor and would honor the agreement whilst the federation would honor it in hopes for renewed peace.

I understand what you are saying.

However, I see the alliance that existed between the Klingons and the Federation as different. The whole reason the Klingons were allied with the federation is because if they did not, they would have ceased to exist as a galactic civilization, having lost Praxis.

This is no small thing.

The nature of the Klingon / Federation alliance became much like the alliance that exists between the US and Britain during the years of TNG, and during DS9 as well. Sure, relations became strained for a time, but those relations were repaired, and the Klingons became strong allies once again.

To have them break off and go to war with the Federation is inconcievable. It's about as likely as the US and Britain going to war again. It's as if the Klingons nor the Federation learned one darn thing during their near 100 years of being allies, and toss away all they lost and gained during the Dominion War.

What I'm saying is that the idea of conflict between the Federation and Klingon Empire of the 24th Century is atypical of how the Klingons were portrayed in canon post-TOS.

[Teleon]

I understand what you are saying.

However, I see the alliance that existed between the Klingons and the Federation as different. The whole reason the Klingons were allied with the federation is because if they did not, they would have ceased to exist as a galactic civilization, having lost Praxis.

This is no small thing.

The nature of the Klingon / Federation alliance became much like the alliance that exists between the US and Britain during the years of TNG, and during DS9 as well. Sure, relations became strained for a time, but those relations were repaired, and the Klingons became strong allies once again.

To have them break off and go to war with the Federation is inconcievable. It's about as likely as the US and Britain going to war again. It's as if the Klingons nor the Federation learned one darn thing during their near 100 years of being allies, and toss away all they lost and gained during the Dominion War.

What I'm saying is that the idea of conflict between the Federation and Klingon Empire of the 24th Century is atypical of how the Klingons were portrayed in canon post-TOS.

I agree 100% with you on this front. I wish we could convince the developers of this as well... but, it does not seem likely.

[STO]

What I'm saying is that the idea of conflict between the Federation and Klingon Empire of the 24th Century is atypical of how the Klingons were portrayed in canon post-TOS.

I agree. But it seems like even thinking about it is useless at this point. Cryptic seems set on the alliances they have chosen. Perhaps with expansions there can be a change in alliances as they add to the game (however unlikely.)

[The_Padre]

And it is entirely possible that whatever this new threat is will be responsible for what could be an even closer alliance between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, since we know that by the 26th century the Federation will have become an even greater power in the region in no small part to the Klingons themselves joining the entity.

[fireraven]

not sure why everyone assumes the ancient threat would be a whole race... what about some of the extremely powerful beings encountered throughout the shows like Nagilum, the entity from Star Trek V or other beings such as this.... might even make for more interesting events as they show up here or there causing trouble causing players to find ways to deal with them such as appealing to the Q for help etc...

[The_Padre]

My vote goes to: "Planet of the Zombie Red Shirts!"

Yes all those poor unfortunate guys who were gunned down over the years finally have their chance for revenge.

[TruthSeer]

not sure why everyone assumes the ancient threat would be a whole race... what about some of the extremely powerful beings encountered throughout the shows like Nagilum, the entity from Star Trek V or other beings such as this.... might even make for more interesting events as they show up here or there causing trouble causing players to find ways to deal with them such as appealing to the Q for help etc...

The common belief the the ancient enemy is a race probably (at least in my case) comes from a gameplay perspective. If you have one entity as the enemy would have to be done like a raid or something, which would kind of diminish what ever character/entity they use. You could also have "live events" that feature the entity but all we'd probably end up doing is pushing it back since killing it would end the threat. Not only that but how would we effectively combat an entity that would fall under the ancient threat category?

A race on the contrary could be handled in the same ways (raids, missions, events) but they can also combine those ways. If its a race there can be missions that feature them, big raids maybe on stations (could have multiple parts to them starting in a space battle and ending either in the station or on the ground) and also live events (maybe invasion fleets).

[DanSeale]

I might be wrong about the time and series ... BUT .. was there an episode where the crew of the Enterprise (TOS) ran across the ruins of an ancient civilization that aparently had left without any apparent reason? That civilization was also very advanced ...

Not sure the last time I saw that was about 40+ years ago .. memory a bit hazy on this one.

[fireraven]

The common belief the the ancient enemy is a race probably (at least in my case) comes from a gameplay perspective. If you have one entity as the enemy would have to be done like a raid or something, which would kind of diminish what ever character/entity they use. You could also have "live events" that feature the entity but all we'd probably end up doing is pushing it back since killing it would end the threat. Not only that but how would we effectively combat an entity that would fall under the ancient threat category?

A race on the contrary could be handled in the same ways (raids, missions, events) but they can also combine those ways. If its a race there can be missions that feature them, big raids maybe on stations (could have multiple parts to them starting in a space battle and ending either in the station or on the ground) and also live events (maybe invasion fleets).
unless the entity uses another race as his stalking horse... say inciting the Breen to attack the Feds

[Sevenblade]

Memory Beta: (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Hur'q)

Yeah, sorry, but you quoted Memory Beta after I quoted Alpha. And seeing how Beta tends to steal the exact canon articles from Alpha, then add the storylines of Pocket books onto it, I don't really see it as necessarily more credible. MA is intended solely as a wiki for canon Star Trek info, and since the enemy is supposed to come out of canon, the Hur'q being extinct (as canon seems to indicate) makes sense.

QFT

Well, I wouldn't rule a civilization out just because it's been declared dead. First of all, all we know is based on the sometimes very limited knowledge of the characters on the show (they believed the Iconians to be extinct, too, didn't they...?), and second... ...things just don't stay dead in Trek, for better and for worse (usually worse).

Very true, especially regarding Trek. However, we can only go on the information we have right now, and that states them to be extinct. Note that I still had them on my list. So the possibility is there, I just don't think it's very likely.





But yet there isn't anything to justify it. Look at the Federation where they are essentially an Empire, but instead of conquest, it's built on mutual understanding. And Empires can do the same in being built on mutual understanding.

I think you're kind of stretching terms there. The Federation could hardly be called an Empire by any conventional meaning of the term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire
An empire is an extensive group of states or ethnic peoples united and ruled over by a single monarch or ruling authority; having a strong centralized political power; and a large commercial organization under the control of one person or group within this nation state

Show me the single monarch of the Federation and I'll concede you this point. While the Federation Council and President might somewhat fit this notion, this would be analogous to the President and Congress of the USA. All subjective opinions aside, most people agree that the US does not count as an empire, because the executive powers are not centralized enough. Plus, intellectual examinations of the Federation as a feasible real-life entity tend to point to the Federation being pretty decentralized (http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/federation.htm)

Also from the Wikipedia article on empires:

Like other states, an empire maintains its political structure at least partly by coercion.

Empire contrasts with the example of a federation, where a large or small multi-ethnic state – or even an ethnically homogeneous one – relies on mutual agreement amongst its component political units which retain a high degree of autonomy.

So yes, I'll give you that an empire can be built on mutual understanding. However, in real life, do they tend to? Hardly. Empire tends to indicate at least a rigid and centralized power system. It doesn't mean that they're aggressive or oppressive, but they are likely to have at least a decent police force/militia, if not a full military.

Yeah, but like your own quote said, they are territorial, not expansionist.

Exactly, which is why I don't really agree with most people when they propose the Tholians this. Like I said, they're a real stretch lol. ;)

[Sevenblade]

Agreed.

However, this particular instance offers a lesson in contradiction.

The Federation and Klingon Empire were allies. For some reason, they stopped being allies, and are in conflict. However, new threat emerges, and they are now faced with a common foe, but aren't allied.

Where is the logic in that?

I have always said the "renewed conflict" angle between the Federation and Klingons didn't make much sense, and this new common foe element reinforces that. If only because it would have made more sense for the Klingons and Federation to renew the Khitomer Accords to face this new threat, same as they did after the Klingon-Cardassian Conflict.

But if they did that, then PVP wouldn't work.

This is a prime example of trying to reshape the IP to fit gameplay rather than shaping the gameplay to the IP.

This is an extremely good point, and one I'm inclined to agree with. However, there's one thing we can't forget: we've only seen about 5 years of development on the STO universe so far. There's plenty of time for something to come up to explain the schism between the two.

[Azurian]

Yeah, sorry, but you quoted Memory Beta after I quoted Alpha. And seeing how Beta tends to steal the exact canon articles from Alpha, then add the storylines of Pocket books onto it, I don't really see it as necessarily more credible. MA is intended solely as a wiki for canon Star Trek info, and since the enemy is supposed to come out of canon, the Hur'q being extinct (as canon seems to indicate) makes sense.

Who gives a damn that Beta stole Alpha's info, that's their problem to resolve.

As for the Hur'q, you have no right to tell us what's canon or not. Especially with the Devs taking plots from the Novels and other Star Trek sources as well. The plot around the Hur'q was obviously approved to be used for a Novel and as a major plot around a Star Trek Game. So that doesn't mean they can't be used or they are 100% extinct.

I think you're kind of stretching terms there. The Federation could hardly be called an Empire by any conventional meaning of the term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire

Show me the single monarch of the Federation and I'll concede you this point. While the Federation Council and President might somewhat fit this notion, this would be analogous to the President and Congress of the USA. All subjective opinions aside, most people agree that the US does not count as an empire, because the executive powers are not centralized enough. Plus, intellectual examinations of the Federation as a feasible real-life entity tend to point to the Federation being pretty decentralized (http://www.stdimension.org/int/Cartography/federation.htm)

Also from the Wikipedia article on empires:

I never said the Federation was an empire, I said they were LIKE an empire.

The Federation is a Republic.

So yes, I'll give you that an empire can be built on mutual understanding. However, in real life, do they tend to? Hardly. Empire tends to indicate at least a rigid and centralized power system. It doesn't mean that they're aggressive or oppressive, but they are likely to have at least a decent police force/militia, if not a full military.

Of course they would have police and militaries, no nation wouldn't have some knid of enforcement. But you previously was aruging that Empires were aggressive conquerors. Which means that Empires arn't always agressive as people make them out to be.

It's just Hollywood corrupting a name and making it look like anything that's labeled "Empire" is evil and agressive, and not possibily being benevolent.

[fireraven]

This is an extremely good point, and one I'm inclined to agree with. However, there's one thing we can't forget: we've only seen about 5 years of development on the STO universe so far. There's plenty of time for something to come up to explain the schism between the two.

and there has always been an element of the Klingon empire that has been anti-Federation... Duras and his followers being one group... you also often see lower ranking Klingons having disdain for Starfleet officers when they interact... more like a "your not Klingon, your targh droppings"
So I can see how that can lead to a split... after all only a few seem dissatisfied when the Klingons and the Feds went to war during the Cardassian conflict.. most were just being Klingons and doing their duty... and having fun doing it...

[Sevenblade]

Who gives a damn that Beta stole Alpha's info, that's their problem to resolve.

As for the Hur'q, you have no right to tell us what's canon or not. Especially with the Devs taking plots from the Novels and other Star Trek sources as well. The plot around the Hur'q was obviously approved to be used for a Novel and as a major plot around a Star Trek Game. So that doesn't mean they can't be used or they are 100% extinct.

Touchy, I see. I'm not telling you what's canon or not (well, technically I am, but not in the sense of I get to decide what canon is.) I'm saying that a canon reference site states that this species is extinct, and Cryptic, while already having established that they would use some soft canon for some of their storyline, has already stated that the enemy is from canon. Therefore, I simply am saying that I trust the canon reference site more than the non-canon one. Not that I have a problem with Memory Beta. It's right next to Alpha on my favorites list. Just one is usually more credible than the other on certain topics (Alpha with canon, Beta with novels).


I never said the Federation was an empire, I said they were LIKE an empire.

The Federation is a Republic.


Well then explain what you mean. I'm just not getting the similarities you see. I'm not trying to be contentious, I'm just saying that we both should be very careful with our word choice and the definitions of those words.

Of course they would have police and militaries, no nation wouldn't have some knid of enforcement. But you previously was aruging that Empires were aggressive conquerors. Which means that Empires arn't always agressive as people make them out to be.

It's just Hollywood corrupting a name and making it look like anything that's labeled "Empire" is evil and agressive, and not possibily being benevolent.

Actually, what I said was:

And yes, Empire does not specifically imply militarism, just like Kingdom does not either. However, as you stated, empires are multiple nations under a single sovereignty. In a system that's not built on cooperation and diplomacy, like a confederacy or a large republic, usually the way to enforce and hold this sovereignty together is through force or the military, to put down revolts and the like.

I specifically stated that all empires are not necessarily aggressive conquerors. However, looking at historical precedence, I think it's safe to say that most empires you could point to tended on the side of being aggressive or militaristic. Think the Persian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_empire), the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_empire), Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_empire), Holy Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_roman_empire), Mongol Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_empire), Mughal Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_empire), Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_empire), Spanish Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_empire), and the British Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire).

Hollywood didn't create those guys. That's plain old historical fact for ya. So now it's more about semantics about "most" empires versus "all" empires. That the T'kon are called an empire is just likely sign that they at the very least had a large, strong military, and probably used it to build their powerbase. There's a difference between assuming and making an educated guess.

[Sevenblade]

and there has always been an element of the Klingon empire that has been anti-Federation... Duras and his followers being one group... you also often see lower ranking Klingons having disdain for Starfleet officers when they interact... more like a "your not Klingon, your targh droppings"
So I can see how that can lead to a split... after all only a few seem dissatisfied when the Klingons and the Feds went to war during the Cardassian conflict.. most were just being Klingons and doing their duty... and having fun doing it...

Very true, I didn't even think of that. The Duras faction seems to have been around since the times of ENT, so with Toral not being confirmed dead, there's always the chance that they will keep carrying their grudge through the ranks of the Klingon hierarchy. Even without the House of Duras, there's a fairly significant portion of the Klingon Empire who is fairly xenophobic, or at least dismissive of the Federation, and believes the Empire should have nothing to do with them. And like you said, when has a Klingon ever passed up a chance for a fight?

[Freejack]

According to the Dev's in NY, there is going to be Federation alliance conflict vs. Klingon alliance conflict. In addition to that there will be a new threat that will spread galaxy wide and will be the revival of an "ancient threat." What do you guys think?

Ed Begley, Jr. is thawed out from cryogenic stasis and starts a campaign to replace all warp drives with solar-sail hybrid engines. :p

[Azurian]

Touchy, I see. I'm not telling you what's canon or not (well, technically I am, but not in the sense of I get to decide what canon is.) I'm saying that a canon reference site states that this species is extinct, and Cryptic, while already having established that they would use some soft canon for some of their storyline, has already stated that the enemy is from canon. Therefore, I simply am saying that I trust the canon reference site more than the non-canon one. Not that I have a problem with Memory Beta. It's right next to Alpha on my favorites list. Just one is usually more credible than the other on certain topics (Alpha with canon, Beta with novels).

Excuse me, but neither Alpha nor Beta is ran by Paramount, so neither one can be directly regarded as canon. They are just overgrown Wikipedias.

You still can't pick and choose what is canon and what's not. There is one TNG Novel and a ST Game that has the Hur'q as the enemy. And last I checked, if Paramount gives the green light, it's Star Trek. Now if you want to be Hardcore Trek (where Novels don't exist) or what not, that's your business. But since the STO Devs are using the Novels, therefore the Novels are just as canon as TV and Movie Trek.

Well then explain what you mean. I'm just not getting the similarities you see. I'm not trying to be contentious, I'm just saying that we both should be very careful with our word choice and the definitions of those words.

Doesn't take a genius to look up that information.

The only difference between the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, was the leadership. While Republics are democratic and elect their leaders, Empires have a sovereign.

Actually, what I said was:

[QUOTE=Sevenblade;373819]
I specifically stated that all empires are not necessarily aggressive conquerors. However, looking at historical precedence, I think it's safe to say that most empires you could point to tended on the side of being aggressive or militaristic. Think the Persian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_empire), the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_empire), Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_empire), Holy Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_roman_empire), Mongol Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_empire), Mughal Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_empire), Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_empire), Spanish Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_empire), and the British Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire).

Hollywood didn't create those guys. That's plain old historical fact for ya. So now it's more about semantics about "most" empires versus "all" empires. That the T'kon are called an empire is just likely sign that they at the very least had a large, strong military, and probably used it to build their powerbase. There's a difference between assuming and making an educated guess.

Last I checked, the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans were Empires, but they weren't agressive conquerors.

You are just being narrow-minded in saying "Empire=Evil, So therefore they were bad people." :rolleyes:

[fireraven]

Last I checked, the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans were Empires, but they weren't agressive conquerors.

You are just being narrow-minded in saying "Empire=Evil, So therefore they were bad people." :rolleyes:

actually the Aztecs and Incas were aggressive conquerors and from what I have read about the mayans the term empire probably is incorrect... from what I saw their system was very similar to the Greek city-states but they were kingdoms instead...


and I don't see how he is being narrow-minded... he just stated facts and opinions... much like you are..

As for Hollywood's views on empires... of course they don't view them as a good thing... it comes from our American background of rejecting rule by Kings,Queens,Emperors and other aristocrats... no single empire was ever created without some aggressive militaristic action of some kind or another..

[govwilbea]

Ancient Evil??? It has to be Mumra the ever living evil!! ooh I scared myself!!

[fireraven]

ohh I figured it out.... an ancient spaceship is discovered and several cryogenically frozen humans are found inside... upon waking them it is discovered they are NBC execs from the 60's....
they were placed there by unknown aliens but after waking they continue with their original plan to destroy Star Trek...... dun dun duunnn:D

[Loekii]

ohh I figured it out.... an ancient spaceship is discovered and several cryogenically frozen humans are found inside... upon waking them it is discovered they are NBC execs from the 60's....
they were placed there by unknown aliens but after waking they continue with their original plan to destroy Star Trek...... dun dun duunnn:D

Too powerful.

http://www.videosurf.com/video/saturday-night-live-star-trek-the-last-voyage-of-the-starship-enterprise-11103911

[Azurian]

actually the Aztecs and Incas were aggressive conquerors and from what I have read about the mayans the term empire probably is incorrect... from what I saw their system was very similar to the Greek city-states but they were kingdoms instead...

and I don't see how he is being narrow-minded... he just stated facts and opinions... much like you are..

As for Hollywood's views on empires... of course they don't view them as a good thing... it comes from our American background of rejecting rule by Kings,Queens,Emperors and other aristocrats... no single empire was ever created without some aggressive militaristic action of some kind or another..

I'm afraid I don't recall the Aztecs or Incas ever doing any conqueroring, they were the ones conquerored.

And I wouldn't say Empires were created out of miltaristic action. The British Empire and the Spanish Empire was created by exploration. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't created out of aggression, but compromise and unity.

[fireraven]

I'm afraid I don't recall the Aztecs or Incas ever doing any conqueroring, they were the ones conquerored.

And I wouldn't say Empires were created out of miltaristic action. The British Empire and the Spanish Empire was created by exploration. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't created out of aggression, but compromise and unity.
Aztecs-
Aztec (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/meso/cultures/aztec_empire.html)
more aztecs (http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/aztecs.html)
I found this to be an interesting quote that I have never heard before but it does make sense (from previous link)
Professor Smith, quoting the words of the anthropologist Robert McCormick Adams, writes that "A defining activity of empires is that they are 'preoccupied with channeling resources from diverse subject polities and peoples to an ethnically defined ruling stratum."

Inca-
Inca (http://www.peru-explorer.com/expansion.htm)
more Inca (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/inca/empire.html)

As for the Spanish...umm who do you think conquered the Inca and the Aztec... the beginnings of the Spanish Empire started off with the Reconquista of the Iberian *****ula from the Moors... and kept going from there
And Spanish explorers were called...Conquistadors...

British empire.... the War of Spanish Succession and the Seven Years war gave them Canada ,Gibraltar and Minorca
India was absorbed by the British through several methods including conquest between the 1700 to 1800's
The Boer wars gave them control over South Africa... so on and so forth

as for the Holy Roman Empire.... that was an attempt to revive earlier empires formed by Charlemange and Otto 1 the great... most of their attempts at "conquest" were in keeping member states in the Empire

the funny thing about both the Spanish and British Empires is that their conquests often weren't planned by the Gov't but happened through the greed of some of their citizens... they would go in looking for wealth and often destroy the native gov't in the process to give them more control of the money...
Kind of similar to how Hawaii became part of the US..

[Azurian]

Touche'. But still that doesn't mean that Empire by definition is evil.

Besides, who else was around 600,000 years ago (aside from Q and his buddies) that T'kon would've subjugated anyhow?

[Federationrulz]

My vote is either the Thirteenth Tribe (j/k) or Kevlan.

[Delta4Elite2]

I think it will be some NEW race that's never been seen in startrek. It will also probably be very hard to deal with, mabey I' ll have to go back on my moto. If it shoots first shove a pretty colorful rainbow of torpedos down its throat!

[Delta4Elite2]

Oh! Oh! Oh! I Got A Good One! My Ex Girl Friend Ahhhhh Top That

[TruthSeer]

Oh! Oh! Oh! I Got A Good One! My Ex Girl Friend Ahhhhh Top That

Your ex girl friend's new boyfriend?
:D j/k

[BradD3401]

lol the borg and the zhindi will form an alliance LOL

[Sevenblade]

Excuse me, but neither Alpha nor Beta is ran by Paramount, so neither one can be directly regarded as canon. They are just overgrown Wikipedias.

You still can't pick and choose what is canon and what's not. There is one TNG Novel and a ST Game that has the Hur'q as the enemy. And last I checked, if Paramount gives the green light, it's Star Trek. Now if you want to be Hardcore Trek (where Novels don't exist) or what not, that's your business. But since the STO Devs are using the Novels, therefore the Novels are just as canon as TV and Movie Trek.

Where am I picking and choosing what's canon? Since you brought up Paramount, which is the ultimate authority on what is canon, then you give me the perfect opportunity to insert their policy on canon into this discussion. Paramount regards all TV shows and movies as canon, and recently added the Animated Series to that list as well. At this time they do not count any novels as canon. I'm far from a hardcore canonist at all. Please don't keep putting words in my mouth and assuming stuff about my character simply because I'm stating the facts and policies that Paramount has. If anything, I would love for Paramount to canonize a few novel series, especially the Titan one. Will they? Probably not within this decade, at least.

This is not about what you or I want as canon or not. It's what Paramount says is, and they're the law in this case. I simply said that Memory Alpha is slightly more credible because under its own rules, it only uses information from sources Paramount has deemed canon, therefore it is a mostly canon-abiding source. And since Cryptic has stated the enemy is from canon, I really don't see how you could interpret it differently.

Doesn't take a genius to look up that information.

The only difference between the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, was the leadership. While Republics are democratic and elect their leaders, Empires have a sovereign.

But we weren't talking about the Romans in this case. We were talking about the Federation. You said the Federation was like an empire. You still have not given me any evidence to indicate this. If I am to take your previous sentence as an allegorical response to this, are you not saying that the only difference between the Federation and it's empire equivalent, the Terran Empire, is who's at top? Seems pretty flimsy as an argument, if you ask me. I can point out quite a few differences between the two other than having a President vs. an Emperor/Empress. And that's not counting the bureacracy part of the government that we really didn't get to see. I'm just talking culturally here. If we had gotten an in depth look at the way the Terran Empire runs politically, I'm sure we would have seen numerous differences.

Actually, what I said was:



Last I checked, the Aztecs, Mayans and Incans were Empires, but they weren't agressive conquerors.

You are just being narrow-minded in saying "Empire=Evil, So therefore they were bad people." :rolleyes:

As fireraven stated already, Aztecs and Incas were definitely aggressive conquerors. I believe I remember learning that in 6th grade. It's pretty common knowledge. Ever wonder where we get the common public image of the Aztecs holding b l o o d y sacrifices to the sun god with prisoners of war? That's because they did. We have archaeological evidence of that. And while we can't confirm it yet, we have a suspicion that the Maya, who came before the other two, also engaged in local warfare and sacrifice.

And actually, I'm trying not to be narrow minded at all. I said aggressive and/or militaristic. Not once did I say the word 'evil'. You blamed Hollywood for creating an image of empires as aggressive, and therefore evil, but it seems that stereotype has rubbed off more on your own subconscious than you'd like to think. I'm not basing anything I've said on any image of an empire from any movie or media other than historical references. Equating aggressive/militaristic is a very subjective viewpoint, and I might even say a narrow one. Look at any of the other threads on this forum about people not wanting to play Klingons because they're "evil". In the Klingon's eyes, they're not 'evil'. In fact, they see themselves as righteous, with people like the Romulans and Federation as 'evil'. It all depends on your perspective.

My original argument was only trying to show some of the potential characterstics of the T'kon to show how they could potentially be a galactic enemy. I'm not trying to paint any empires or systems of government with the subjective brushes of "good" or "bad". I'm just showing you how the tendencies of these kinds of cultures/governments could potentially lead to a clash between the factions in the game.

EDIT: I hate how this forum censors out the word used to describe something having to do with a lot of blood. :rolleyes:

[Delta4Elite2]

Your ex girl friend's new boyfriend?
:D j/k

LOL nice but ya u toped it.

[EbonyBlade]

Recounting my "Final Unity" days, It could be the Chodak. It would be so cool if they were included in this game! I have to say that they are probably my favorite side story villains!:D

[TruthSeer]

From Zinc's Twitter:

I just saw the Guardian of Forever in game. Bam!