The weight of numbers.

[Jenshae]

I hope that low level players can do damage to high level ones and the same for the ships. Thus even low levels can play their role, simply put, if they are more mobile and small, they can dodge and evade slow powerful attacks.

This would then hold true for raids as the boss monster / ship would have trouble coming to grips with them. When they do, you are dead though, so a few would only take a hit each and all be dead before the big one has taken damage.

Why all this? Well so that low level players and small ships can serve a role with high level and massive ships.

Edit:

I have to disagree on this. Low level ship should do some damage to high level ship but should be no major impact on a higher level ship. If low level ships come together and attack a high level ship and bring it down due to being out numbered then thats fine.

That sums up what I was driving at. It is getting late here and I am getting tired.

[Kuhr]

I hope that low level players can do damage to high level ones and the same for the ships. Thus even low levels can play their role, simply put, if they are more mobile and small, they can dodge and evade slow powerful attacks.

This would then hold true for raids as the boss monster / ship would have trouble coming to grips with them. When they do, you are dead though, so a few would only take a hit each and all be dead before the big one has taken damage.

Why all this? Well so that low level players and small ships can serve a role with high level and massive ships.

I have to disagree on this. Low level ship should do some damage to high level ship but should be no major impact on a higher level ship. If low level ships come together and attack a high level ship and bring it down due to being out numbered then thats fine.

[Interdictor]

I hope that low level players can do damage to high level ones and the same for the ships. Thus even low levels can play their role, simply put, if they are more mobile and small, they can dodge and evade slow powerful attacks.

This would then hold true for raids as the boss monster / ship would have trouble coming to grips with them. When they do, you are dead though, so a few would only take a hit each and all be dead before the big one has taken damage.

Why all this? Well so that low level players and small ships can serve a role with high level and massive ships.

Well, the devs HAVE been quoted as saying multiple small ships CAN take on larger ones.

The thing is - where STO isn't a level-based game - just how different new players will be from vet players remains to be seen. Things like how higher skills and equipment interact are impossible to know right now - so it's hard to say if a "noob" and a "vet" confront each other with the same ship will end with:
a) the vet totally "pwning" the "noob", with littl damage done to the vet,
b) the "noob" actually has some chance (at least to do some damage), but the vet has a definate advantage and will most likely fly away from the incident,
c) skills don't mean as much (equipment means much more) and they are more or less even.

I'm hoping it's somewhere in the area of "b)".

[Varrangian]

I hope that low level players can do damage to high level ones and the same for the ships. Thus even low levels can play their role, simply put, if they are more mobile and small, they can dodge and evade slow powerful attacks.

This would then hold true for raids as the boss monster / ship would have trouble coming to grips with them. When they do, you are dead though, so a few would only take a hit each and all be dead before the big one has taken damage.

Why all this? Well so that low level players and small ships can serve a role with high level and massive ships.

I do not disagree with you. But are you assuming that high level ships will be massive? I would disagree with this idea and conclusion. I mean we know that there will be three ship "classes/roles" for each faction.

Fed - Escort/Scout, Science and Exploration/Cruiser.

Klingon - Raider, Carrier, Cruiser.

So a High level escort should be more mobile than a low level escort.

[Jenshae]

I have to disagree on this. Low level ship should do some damage to high level ship but should be no major impact on a higher level ship. If low level ships come together and attack a high level ship and bring it down due to being out numbered then thats fine.

That sums up what I was driving at. It is getting late here and I am getting tired.

[SirReginaldo]

Well hears something for the discussion. Bigger ships have more health, which would make sense, and stronger shield outputs. Although, this size should and could come at the cost of speed at impulse power compared to smaller classes. Smaller classes however should come with advantages like, their speed. Speed alone can be a good defense. And weapons should not vary too much, however the amount of weapons should. I can also say that bigger ships could apply more power to weapons than a smaller vessel but lets say its even (or an engineer skill that gets you more power). Skills with engineers could involve boosting shields, faster repairs outside of docks, and amplifying systems like targeting, sensors, weapons and speed overall. Lets say that the size of a ship, im sorry to say this (like eve), will determine how well a larger ship can target and strike for critical damage. It should be a fluke unless the ship has the advantage on the smaller vessel, that it strikes a system with heavy damage. Im not saying they should miss all the time, just strike more grazing shield strikes than powerful strikes. And even then to balance things out there should be counter measures for weapons like torpedoes of any kind, or others. Shields could be rotated or amplified to resist strong amounts of particles from Nuclear, to thermal radiation. Like how the Romulans shields were not made to resist Nuclear affects at the begining because they had never had to modulate their shields to resist them. Just little tid bits to add. Maybe even smaller ships could apply stealth generators or sensor jamming tools to give them a slight advantage to possibly help them at least survive an encounter with a larger vessel, allowing them to escape or evade long enough to escape and get reinforcements.

[SirReginaldo]

I do not disagree with you. But are you assuming that high level ships will be massive? I would disagree with this idea and conclusion. I mean we know that there will be three ship "classes/roles" for each faction.

Fed - Escort/Scout, Science and Exploration/Cruiser.

Klingon - Raider, Carrier, Cruiser.

So a High level escort should be more mobile than a low level escort.

That sums up what I was driving at. It is getting late here and I am getting tired.

Well like you guys say, bigger ships should be more powerful and should be able to take a pounding, however that should be their advantage, while smaller ships rely on speed and numbers. Say that 2 Brels get into a fight with a Constitution, they should have a chance against a Constitution because of speed and numbers, and maybe even cloak and decloak depending on which one is taking a pounding. Stuff like this. And the Contitution should be able to hit them, and take more hits, however be more evenly matched due to the advantage of strength on his/her part, and the Brels with there speed.

[SirReginaldo]

Crap then that brings in the effective tracking, range and rate of fire of weapons on both sides of confrontations and how many the ships will have or be able to carry. Damn this is too much hehehe.:D

Oh and cryptic, do what ever you want, cause you dont have to make a StarTrek / EvE hybrid, its cool and I respect any game mechanic decisions that you will make. Im just stating some ideas, probably that you might have taken and used or disregarded and wanted to make something yours. I love this game and what ever it comes out as will be good in my books. Keep up the good work :p

[brandonvi]

Well, the devs HAVE been quoted as saying multiple small ships CAN take on larger ones.

The thing is - where STO isn't a level-based game - just how different new players will be from vet players remains to be seen. Things like how higher skills and equipment interact are impossible to know right now - so it's hard to say if a "noob" and a "vet" confront each other with the same ship will end with:
a) the vet totally "pwning" the "noob", with littl damage done to the vet,
b) the "noob" actually has some chance (at least to do some damage), but the vet has a definate advantage and will most likely fly away from the incident,
c) skills don't mean as much (equipment means much more) and they are more or less even.

I'm hoping it's somewhere in the area of "b)".

I really really really hope that somone that started the game 10 min ago when I have been playing for a year or more should have 0 chance of wining atleast alone i mean if 20 noobs swarm you i can see that but 1v1 a noob should be dead VERY fast it really takes away from the feel of progress if you get killed by some new person just because there friend that plays tells them a trick or 2.

[SirReginaldo]

Oh i get you Ice, but even then a noob should be able to at least survive and escape in a smaller ship or evade. It has nothing to do with actually defeating a soverign in a scout for example, but the idea that the soverign could hit it and does more damage than the inferior fire power of a smaller ship. Smaller ships still have to be good by standards for speed and manuverability like making their way through a roid field and escaping or some sort of evasive pattern that allows then to dodge alot of the heavier damage(while still taking some) and escape or regroup and recoupe to attack back. Surprise should be another advantage, but not a cripiling one to the bigger ship.

In no way, unless they have an advantage of imense preportions like an explosive material that can cripple a ship/destroy it, should a single scout be able to take them down unless the player is the best in the game.:D or if it is me:D

[Vicelance]

I really really really hope that somone that started the game 10 min ago when I have been playing for a year or more should have 0 chance of wining atleast alone i mean if 20 noobs swarm you i can see that but 1v1 a noob should be dead VERY fast it really takes away from the feel of progress if you get killed by some new person just because there friend that plays tells them a trick or 2.

Yea but if you climb into the exact same ship armed with the exact same phasers and torpedos or fight on a planet armed with the same hand weapons it should be about skill. A phaser should do as much damage no matter who fires it.

The experienced player might have bonuses such as better aim and maybe they are faster at switching targets and locking on and of course they have had more practice, but that should be it. the max damage a weapon can do doesn't change just because a more experienced person picks it up.

[SirReginaldo]

Then that brings up the topic of the weapon. If what I believe is true then a player who plays the game longer will have all the advantages that come with time including skill, but maybe even better weapons, or adjusted to be stronger. Even though it is hard to imagine that someone could take even more than just one hit from a phaser/disruptor, but they will find a way to add that in some how:D. Have faith:p.

[Interdictor]

Yea but if you climb into the exact same ship armed with the exact same phasers and torpedos or fight on a planet armed with the same hand weapons it should be about skill. A phaser should do as much damage no matter who fires it.

The experienced player might have bonuses such as better aim and maybe they are faster at switching targets and locking on and of course they have had more practice, but that should be it. the max damage a weapon can do doesn't change just because a more experienced person picks it up.

That's along the lines I think I'd like to see the game head. A more experienced character would have higher skill levels, better aim, better able to target subsystems, better/faster damage repair, better able to avoid damage, etc...

If you really want to extrapolate, maybe the skilled vet could do more a bit more damage (able to land shots to weaker areas) or be slightly more resistant to damage (able to reinforce shield harmonics, evasive maneuvers turn enemy shots into glancing blows, etc.) But I don't think something like this should be too extreme.

[Jenshae]

By and large, skill is a myth when it comes to gaming.

Edit:

By "skill" I'm not talking about PLAYER skill. I'm talking about CHARACTER skills.
This is what I was replying to, not your post(s), which I skip over, normally. This time you caught my eye by quoting me.
Yea but if you climb into the exact same ship armed with the exact same phasers and torpedos or fight on a planet armed with the same hand weapons it should be about skill. ...

[Interdictor]

By and large, skill is a myth when it comes to gaming.

By "skill" I'm not talking about PLAYER skill. I'm talking about CHARACTER skills.

[ivan50265]

I think I hear what the OP is saying, you wan to be an instant contributo to the world. Sure that makes sense to me. But more skilled crews with better ships tech wise should take the day over a rookie crew in a less advanced ship.

[Varrangian]

By and large, skill is a myth when it comes to gaming.

Very true.

[osena]

I have to disagree on this. Low level ship should do some damage to high level ship but should be no major impact on a higher level ship. If low level ships come together and attack a high level ship and bring it down due to being out numbered then thats fine.

your not useing Logic Mr Vulcan a Photon tropedop shot form tear one ship will deal the same amount of damage as if it was shot form galaxy class you are all so not useing Logic when it comes to a larger ship knocking out the ships of ship and a smaller should get in there faster then a lager ship and taget there warp core and destroy that ship whit one will placed shot.

[Jenshae]

Larger ships should be able to carry larger torpedoes, that will have a greater force when exploding, in greater quantity and infuse each energy shot with more. A simple case of "I am bigger so I should have more power (or brawn if you like)."

[Interdictor]

Larger ships should be able to carry larger torpedoes, that will have a greater force when exploding, in greater quantity and infuse each energy shot with more. A simple case of "I am bigger so I should have more power (or brawn if you like)."

I know ships can have larger launchers that can usually fire larger spreads of torpedoes (Galaxy class launchers can fire ten torpedoes in one salvo, and Akiras have 15 tubes)

There are also different varieties of torpedo out there; more powerful forms of Photon torpedo, quantum torpedoes, etc.

[Jenshae]

I think ... (http://gi55.photobucket.com/groups/g131/A740V1W4G6/hmph.jpg)

... beat out the semantics amongst you lot, now that you have the gist of what I mean.

[JacobFlowers]

Well hears something for the discussion. Bigger ships have more health, which would make sense, and stronger shield outputs. Although, this size should and could come at the cost of speed at impulse power compared to smaller classes. Smaller classes however should come with advantages like, their speed. Speed alone can be a good defense. And weapons should not vary too much, however the amount of weapons should. I can also say that bigger ships could apply more power to weapons than a smaller vessel but lets say its even (or an engineer skill that gets you more power). Skills with engineers could involve boosting shields, faster repairs outside of docks, and amplifying systems like targeting, sensors, weapons and speed overall. Lets say that the size of a ship, im sorry to say this (like eve), will determine how well a larger ship can target and strike for critical damage. It should be a fluke unless the ship has the advantage on the smaller vessel, that it strikes a system with heavy damage. Im not saying they should miss all the time, just strike more grazing shield strikes than powerful strikes. And even then to balance things out there should be counter measures for weapons like torpedoes of any kind, or others. Shields could be rotated or amplified to resist strong amounts of particles from Nuclear, to thermal radiation. Like how the Romulans shields were not made to resist Nuclear affects at the begining because they had never had to modulate their shields to resist them. Just little tid bits to add. Maybe even smaller ships could apply stealth generators or sensor jamming tools to give them a slight advantage to possibly help them at least survive an encounter with a larger vessel, allowing them to escape or evade long enough to escape and get reinforcements.



Block text... ahhh.

Okay, anyway... we shall take examples from ST Universe and clarify things. I of course want a fun game, but MORE THAN ANYTHING... I don't want something that is ridiculously unfaithful to the star trek universe. Perhaps more than anything, and please disagree with me if you have a counter point of view, but I think most trekkies would prefer a Universe that is as closed to what we grew up with and were influenced by as possible. I don't want it to be put as "yea, star trek online is good, but the tv shows and movies were better". Authenticity and something finally true to the name would be very honoring.

Okay, to reply to your post however:

1) Slow attack = NO. We are not in some other universe. The targeting computers on a starship in ST are far more advanced than any other sci fi series. They fire... they hit... (usually). We have ALL seen the Enterprise D shot down fast small moving objects (even torpedos). If its a big ship, it has a potential higher energy yield than smaller vessels, but targeting remains the same.

2) Ship Movement and Ship Size: Impulse speeds in Star Trek online are Uniform 1/4, 1/2, Full impulse. There is NO indication that a ship is faster than another at sublight speeds. What we do know from canon is that smaller ships have more agility. A galaxy class ship as we have seen is not some large lumbering tank wanderng throough space. BUt we do see ships such as the defiant able to possess a more agile turning and maneuvering capability.

3) Ships and Power: Easy. The larger the ship, the larger the power output. This means greater shield strengh. Again, we have no indication within starfleet that ships have varying degrees of hull strength (there are special exceptions like Voyager's non-standard ablative hull plating). I think ship hull strength should be uniform, however witht he possibility of upgrades. With this in mind... normal hull strength CAN vary from race to race however.

4) Skill based advantages: This is a good suggestion. The higher skill your engineer has, the faster repairs or made, or a stronger output for weapons or propulsion. Perhaps we could even have classifications for our engineers, such as "Average" or "Exceptional" or "Top of their class" or "Legendary" or "Miracle Worker", etc. An engineer with a Miracle Worker status could possess special boons that could get the ship out of impossibly difficult circumstances, etc. Something similar to this was implemented in another star trek game, but I can't remember which one.

5) This is not eve. The federation has shielding advanced enough to resist and keep out most forms of radiation and guard against EM, thermal, and kinetic damage. In fact, I think Federation shields are almost immune to thermal attack, and no one that I know of in the ST universe uses things like kinetic weapons. And as for your mentioning of "nuclear" I seem to recall an episode in the next generation where a lesser civilization threatened the enterprise with an attack with lasers and nuclear torpedos, to which Picard and Riker chuckled in amusement.

[JacobFlowers]

I really really really hope that somone that started the game 10 min ago when I have been playing for a year or more should have 0 chance of wining atleast alone i mean if 20 noobs swarm you i can see that but 1v1 a noob should be dead VERY fast it really takes away from the feel of progress if you get killed by some new person just because there friend that plays tells them a trick or 2.

Idea:

NooBs begin with a basic ship and an "INEXPERIENCED crew". Their disadvantage is slower reaction times. Unfortunately with such strong advancements in computers, many things on a Starship are regulated quite well, and operate within a certain norm.

But if a nooB faces off with a veteran player... well that veteran player has an experienced crew, perhaps some experimental or special weapons, bonuses to shields additional evasion manuevering options "Execute evasive maneuver Riker Alpha Gamma!" etc.

Oh Goodness, I reeaaaally want my own Galaxy Class Ship. eeek.

[SirReginaldo]

your not useing Logic Mr Vulcan a Photon tropedop shot form tear one ship will deal the same amount of damage as if it was shot form galaxy class you are all so not useing Logic when it comes to a larger ship knocking out the ships of ship and a smaller should get in there faster then a lager ship and taget there warp core and destroy that ship whit one will placed shot.

Very true that a weapon like phasers do not differ in star trek, its the number of weapons, so in truth a bigger ship has the advantage, especially with a well trained crew. They could find a weakness or a frequency of phaser blasts that could penetrate the ships shields so forth.

Larger ships should be able to carry larger torpedoes, that will have a greater force when exploding, in greater quantity and infuse each energy shot with more. A simple case of "I am bigger so I should have more power (or brawn if you like)."

Yet again true. Bigger ships could carry a larger payload of weapons. Its like nukes, except with ships. The bigger the bomb (Megatons), the bigger the boom.

I know ships can have larger launchers that can usually fire larger spreads of torpedoes (Galaxy class launchers can fire ten torpedoes in one salvo, and Akiras have 15 tubes)

There are also different varieties of torpedo out there; more powerful forms of Photon torpedo, quantum torpedoes, etc.

Yet again true. We love to make the same points, and all three of you are on the same wave length.

However even if a ship is smaller/ bigger, in space this should not matter too much. Unless a ship is smaller and thus has less mass to impact its ability to turn/accelerate there should be no difference. Same thing with torps. They may be bigger, but they will compensate that with maybe more purpulsion and thus increasing their ability to track a ships course.

[SirReginaldo]

The Nuclear thing was for aliens. Like the Romulans who did not, key word "did" not have resistancies to certain radiations released by human devices like Nuclear isotopes. Not saying the federation. But what about that weapon that the dominion used that destroyed that huge fleet that the romulans, federation, and the klingons massed? That was no laser, tazer, phaser, mazer or gazer:D. And I did not mention ballistic weapons, you did. All I said was Torpedoes, and Phasers, but containing adjustments and shields.

Oh and the targeting was just an example of how smaller objects at high speeds with high manuverability would be hard to track say in debrie, sorry that I even mentioned it:(

[JacobFlowers]

The Nuclear thing was for aliens. Like the Romulans who did not, key word "did" not have resistancies to certain radiations released by human devices like Nuclear isotopes. Not saying the federation. But what about that weapon that the dominion used that destroyed that huge fleet that the romulans, federation, and the klingons massed? That was no laser, tazer, phaser, mazer or gazer:D. And I did not mention ballistic weapons, you did. All I said was Torpedoes, and Phasers, but containing adjustments and shields.

Oh and the targeting was just an example of how smaller objects at high speeds with high manuverability would be hard to track say in debrie, sorry that I even mentioned it:(

I understand better. Smaller ships in ice fields, asteroid belts, planetary rings, ship debris may be more difficult to track, i would say they would still hit the ship... but by fortune or luck the phaser blast could hit debris in the way thus protecting a smaller ship.

And yes... cool "new development weapons" I am all for, such as what you mentioned with the Breen. And yes, you are correct with your example of the ROmulans weakness to nuclear types of isotopes, i forgot about that, just as the federation has weaknesses against... nerr, i forgot, but yes we have an understanding :)

[cocoa-jin]

So a High level escort should be more mobile than a low level escort.

Not necessarily...but I get what you are getting at. There should be several factors that can make a vessel better. We shouldnt assume a higher tier ship will be better than a lower tier ship across the board...on all aspects of ship design.

Depending on the attributes its designed to take excel in, we might find a higher tier escort with better acceleration and increased forward firing damage output...or just boost in shielding...or more shielding and increased firing arcs, except frontal(it chooses to stay in tight formation with the asset and act as a gunship...so frontal arcs arent important)...etc, etc.

So better can be partly niche and partly various increased stats.

[osena]

I think the best ship would be fast attack Frigate/destroyer like the Promtheus great firepower stocked whit qunatum tropedos it fastist ship in starfleet might still be in 2409 same whit the intrepid and Sovereign class ships all fast and great firepower

[CherryTerri]

Hasn't there been some battles in Star Trek where smaller ships hassle even the larger ones, perhaps sneaking in to attack warp nacells while the battlecruiser types pound the enemy shields?

[Interdictor]

Hasn't there been some battles in Star Trek where smaller ships hassle even the larger ones, perhaps sneaking in to attack warp nacells while the battlecruiser types pound the enemy shields?
Yeah - but those ships had the power of "plot" on their side. :D

[Father_Origin]

Well, the devs HAVE been quoted as saying multiple small ships CAN take on larger ones.

The thing is - where STO isn't a level-based game - just how different new players will be from vet players remains to be seen. Things like how higher skills and equipment interact are impossible to know right now - so it's hard to say if a "noob" and a "vet" confront each other with the same ship will end with:
a) the vet totally "pwning" the "noob", with littl damage done to the vet,
b) the "noob" actually has some chance (at least to do some damage), but the vet has a definate advantage and will most likely fly away from the incident,
c) skills don't mean as much (equipment means much more) and they are more or less even.

I'm hoping it's somewhere in the area of "b)".


catch 22

I would agree, players themselves will not be level based, but can bet the ships will be to
some extent...that 'tier' system

the devils in the details

[Jenshae]

Hmm ... I think a bump is better than the response I just deleted. The title says it all really I just hope it is taken into consideration. One max "level" running around ganking lowbies doesn't make sense. Numbers should equal power over whelming.