Starfleet now use's money

[Nasedo]

The Federation may have grown beyond the need for money within itself, but the rest of the galaxy hasn’t. Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits. You can’t simply decide one day that you want a starship and then get one, you have to have enough credits for that. Outside of the Federation, there’s a thriving galactic economy that uses gold pressed latinum. You, as a Starfleet officer, will participate in that economy on behalf of the Federation. As for cross faction trading – we’re looking into how black markets might fit into the game.

so starfleet use's money?
i can see it now... picard save's up his money for a galaxy class blueprints and upgrades!

[Manx]

I see it as a kind of streamlining.

Plenty of officers spend their careers behind a desk; rank does not necessarily get you a command of your own. Even when it does, it won't necessarily get you a prestigious one like a Galaxy class.

Personally, I would rather not have to sit and puzzle my way through some complex system of prestige, command experience, accomplishments, replicator usage, and brown nosing, to figure out how much shopping I can do.

Don't think money, think shorthand :p

[Paulo999]

lol we need some kind of currency otherwise the game wont be as fun.. getting stuff for free ruins the challenge in an mmo for me

[Nasedo]

I see it as a kind of streamlining.

Plenty of officers spend their careers behind a desk; rank does not necessarily get you a command of your own. Even when it does, it won't necessarily get you a prestigious one like a Galaxy class.

Personally, I would rather not have to sit and puzzle my way through some complex system of prestige, command experience, accomplishments, replicator usage, and brown nosing, to figure out how much shopping I can do.

Don't think money, think shorthand :p

will they said credits...and i can't help to think it would be some kind of Gold.. do missions from Starfleet and get a reward of 1400$ credits... makes me sad i was hoping we got pass the use of money in a STO mmo

[Nasedo]

lol we need some kind of currency otherwise the game wont be as fun.. getting stuff for free ruins the challenge in an mmo for me

im sure they can use something else... its not STO any more if they use money.. Starfleet evolved from useing any kind of money. at all

you dont see Worf. or data wait for there paychecks from picard? i didnt they work to better them selfs

[Paulo999]

im sure they can use something else... its not STO any more if they use money.. Starfleet evolved from useing any kind of money. at all

you see Worf. or data wait for there paychecks from picard? i didnt they work to better them selfs


Happy now ? took it from memory alpha. probably the most cannon site there is

James T. Kirk stated that the Federation Starfleet had a lot invested in both he and Commander Spock. In fact, Starfleet had 122,200 plus credits invested in Spock by the end of 2267. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", "The Apple")

In 2267, Uhura offered to purchase a tribble for ten credits. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles")

In 2269, Harry Mudd was selling love potion crystals with 300 credits a piece before he had realized they actually work. (TAS: "Mudd's Passion")

In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

The Federation would have paid 1.5 million Federation credits as a lump sum and then 100,000 credits every Barzanian year for the rights to the Barzan wormhole. (TNG: "The Price")

Quark accepted credits in his bar when doing business with Federation citizens. (DS9: "Body Parts", "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"; VOY: "Caretaker")

[USS_Parallax]

A moneyless world makes no sense. Everyone would go on vacation all the time and the transporters would be filled with traffic. Imagine taking 5 minutes to fully materialize due to the traffic!

Basically though there's no money that doesn't mean everything is free. There are Federation Credits. There's basic trade. There's the extras that a job might get you. etc etc etc...
While food might be free it's not like anyone could at any time just choose to jump on a ship and go wherever they want. That would be an unworkable and stupid system. There HAS to be limits on travel with ways to raise or lower the limits based on different factors. There HAS to be limits on replicator goods I mean what if one day I wanted to replicate a mount of bubble gum? There HAS to be limits and ways to surpass those limits with a system similar to money though often based on status and availability.

[SiskoBell]

The Federation doesn't use money internally. But they do use a credit system to keep track of resource expenditures. In the first episode of ST:TNG, Dr. Crusher tells a merchant to charge a purchase to her account on her ship. When dealing with non-Federation cultures, Starfleet personnel have dealt in latinum. Dax routinely earned/lost latinum playing tongo with Quark.

So, I assume Cryptic will follow canon. The "Ask Cryptic" answer says that Federation players will interact with outside worlds using latinum. But I doubt Captains will have to earn enough bars of latiunim to "buy" and upgrade from Starfleet. Internal Federation trades will probably be based on prestige or credit rewards. These could then be converted to latinum for dealing with non-Federation worlds...I hope.

Of course, if it's all latinum all the time, then I agree with Manx that Cryptic is streamlining. I won't like it, but it won't kill the game for me.

[StarfleetOfficer]

I believe energy distribution credits would be more appropriate, or maybe mining Dilithium like in Star Trek Armada and trading it or using it to supply Fleet's.

[Nasedo]

Happy now ? took it from memory alpha. probably the most cannon site there is

James T. Kirk stated that the Federation Starfleet had a lot invested in both he and Commander Spock. In fact, Starfleet had 122,200 plus credits invested in Spock by the end of 2267. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", "The Apple")

In 2267, Uhura offered to purchase a tribble for ten credits. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles")

In 2269, Harry Mudd was selling love potion crystals with 300 credits a piece before he had realized they actually work. (TAS: "Mudd's Passion")

In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

The Federation would have paid 1.5 million Federation credits as a lump sum and then 100,000 credits every Barzanian year for the rights to the Barzan wormhole. (TNG: "The Price")

Quark accepted credits in his bar when doing business with Federation citizens. (DS9: "Body Parts", "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"; VOY: "Caretaker")

remember in first contact picard was telling that 2067 women on the enterprise money doesnt exist any more. she ask how much (this thing cost) and then said you dont get payed?

then picard said they work to better them selfs.. how do you explain that?
i would take picard's side any day

[Manx]

remember in first contact picard was tilling that 2067 women on the enterprise money doesnt exist any more. she ask how much (this thing cost) and then said you dont get payed?

then picard said they work to better them selfs.. how do you explain that?
i would take picard's side any day

Yea, but he specifically said 'humanity', not 'the Federation'. The same thing came up again between Nog and Jake in DS9 with Jake saying 'I'm a human I don't have any money' (Nog thought he should bid on a baseball card at an auction).

I always used to jump in on the 'no money' side of these arguments, but I recently went back over all these quotes and decided that it was just humans that didn't use it; and since other people did use money, they only had that luxury when trading amongst themselves.

---EDIT---

The DS9 ep was 'In the Cards'.

[Paulo999]

remember in first contact picard was tilling that 2067 women on the enterprise money doesnt exist any more. she ask how much (this thing cost) and then said you dont get payed?

then picard said they work to better them selfs.. how do you explain that?
i would take picard's side any day

picards old bless him and he was about to walk through a corridor full of borg.. so lets just say he was having a nervous brake down.

[Silverspar]

so starfleet use's moeny? so picard save up his money for a galaxy class blueprints? and upgrades?

i hope this isnt the first step of the fall of STO... i really think STO wont turn out that great..

Umm, news flash, the Federation has always had a credit system. Federation Credit (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_credit). Picard's one statement is not backed up, where as the Federation Credit has been mentioned in every series to date, from TOS to Voyager. Considering First Contact was the most inconsistant fo all the TNG era movies as far as teh Trek lore went, I think we can easily write off anything Picard says there.

[Nasedo]

picards old bless him and he was about to walk through a corridor full of borg.. so lets just say he was having a nervous brake down.

i dont think so..

but it seems like there is no way to get it to your peoples head that STO isnt about money and buying it over some website while are accounts get hack,,,

i was really looking forward to not useing money to buy crap.. i hate it, i remember playing SWG, buying guns and crap wasnt to fun, same with wow and there spam in the gerenal chat about buying gold,,,

[AaronH]

I am still holding out hope for each side having a non tangible credit system for internal use, and then a third tangible for use with eachother and non faction NPCs. So the federation might have prestige and the Klingons might have Honor. But they would both also gain latinum or credits or something.

[Paulo999]

i dont think so..

but it seems like there is no way to get it to your peoples head that STO isnt about money and buying it over some website while are accounts get hack,,,

i was really looking forward to not useing money to buy crap.. i hate it, i remember playing SWG, buying guns and crap wasnt to fun, same with wow and there spam in the gerenal chat about buying gold,,,

lol thats why you change your password constantly.

[Nasedo]

lol thats why you change your password constantly.

every week,., i dont even tell my wife my password

[Paulo999]

every week,., i dont even tell my wife my password

lol if you do get hacked im sure the admins will trace the ip to whoever did it and ban them.

the swg guys traced my ip when i tryed to convince them i got hacked and lost my mando helm (which i accidently deleted) i got banned for 2 days lol

[Kinneas]

so starfleet use's moeny? so picard save up his money for a galaxy class blueprints? and upgrades?


ahahhahahahhahhahh. It probably does not work exactly like that in Starfleet.

The Common Interplanetary Credit was established in the Articles of Federation and have appeared in many episodes of Trek. A classic example is Uhura using credits to buy the Tribble from Mr. Jones.

Paper money/ Insurance Script, is not 'credits'.

"You don't use 'money' in the future?"
"Well. We don't." (His credit card should have worked since 1968 though. :) )

We have almost reached a paperless money society now.

[weirdguy]

Money can have it's name changed, but it will still be money.

In City of Heroes you gain Prestige points for defeating bad guys, ect. The prestige points are used to get training enhacments to make your stats better, or buy a new costume, whatever.

It is numbers, and you get stuff for it. It's money.

And yes, Star Trek has always used some kind of money. In the Search for Spock, the freighter in the beginning wants to be paid for delivering that Klingon woman to a rendevouz point (they get blown up instead). Bones then tries to hire a freighter to take him back to the Genesis planet.

It's just that people themselves don't get paid individually. You still have an economy, because in Star Trek everyone is nice, and they pool their resources together so everyone gets something. It is communism, but one that actually works as promised.

[Sheeba]

also if i remember correct someones the borg have taken decks 26 - 11 and laters on when picards talking to the black chick he says theres only 24 decks yet in nemesis theres 29 lol so confusing

[mendal]

I said it before (in the very first STO economy threads) and I'll say it again: Money is not paper banknotes but it is whatever asset that makes you wealthier. However currency (usually printed on paper: i.e. euro existed for three years since its beginning as only an electronic currency what sounds very close to ST credits) is one or several type of money which is liquid enough for trade between people. Banknotes (or in this case credits) are simply standardized way of trade which is backed up by central bank systems thus making it the most liquid fiat money for most transactions. However on a bigger scale companies and countries may do trades in commodities without even talking about any currency. For crying out loud my economics professor said that in Romania (if I remember correctly the country) they had Kent cigarettes as currency and all the prices were in Kent cigarettes. You may disagree with me but this is not just my opinion expressed here but one of many economists.
Bottom line: with all due respect learn some economics before blaming Cryptic for ruining anything. They are just making a game which is fun to play. It is not their fault ST creators didn't think the economics through and besides this is a game which demands different economics.

[Dahakra]

I got to say, I could never understand peoples severe hatred of their perception that the world of the future has no money. Economics is one of the tenants of civilization. From the first simple trades between our hunter-gatherer ancestors to almost "virtual" monetary systems that exist today. Our descendants will live in a world we all hope is better than this one, a world without hunger, disease and persecution. But a world where nobody has to do anything if they don't want to but still gets everything they could want or need for free? Com'on wake up. To continue to assume that everything is "free" in our Star Trek style future (even in the face of evidence to the contrary) is, how shall I put this delicately, idiotic.

I've always viewed the lack of hard currency in StarFleet the same way I view the military today. If your stationed aboard a Naval Vessel at sea, then you don't go to the mess and take out your wallet to pay for your lunch, do you? You don't pay to get your shirts laundered, do you? You ain't required to pay rent for your quarters / cabin / bunk, are you?The quartermaster doesn't hand you a bill every time you fire a round of ammunition, does he? Your part of a military structure that provides all these necessity's, the food might taste better if if you had no sense of taste, the bunk my be less comfortable that a concrete slab and the quartermaster might yell at you because you waste too many bullets since you can't shoot for sh**, but atleast its free right? StarFleet is just a more advanced version of our current military, the food is better, the bunks are beds and there is no ammo for the quartermaster to bi**h about :D.

I for one am happy there will be a real, hopefully, dynamic economy in STO. To neglect this aspect of Star Trek would mean loosing a great deal of depth and IMO fun from the game. Moreover I understand that Klingon's have money, how could anyone want to give everything to Feds for free while the poor Klingon's will have to shovel Targ sh** to get that shiny new disruptor?:D Hardly fair now is it.

Anyway, flame away.

- Dahakra

[Nasedo]

ahahhahahahhahhahh. It probably does not work exactly like that in Starfleet.

The Common Interplanetary Credit was established in the Articles of Federation and have appeared in many episodes of Trek. A classic example is Uhura using credits to buy the Tribble from Mr. Jones.

Paper money/ Insurance Script, is not 'credits'.

"You don't use 'money' in the future?"
"Well. We don't." (His credit card should have worked since 1968 though. :) )

We have almost reached a paperless money society now.

true uhura did have credits to buy a tribble..but thats different from TNG DS9 and Voy

its how the writers made Star Trek... Like how the Klingons Look different from TOS to DS9
its stuff no one can explain in the show. but off the show the writers change it and never spoke about it again because its not part of Starfleet and what they believe in

[DragonShark]

true uhura did have credits to buy a tribble..but thats different from TNG DS9 and Voy

Except that you've already been presented with instances of credits used in TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

[Meeber]

so starfleet use's moeny? so picard save up his money for a galaxy class blueprints? and upgrades?

i hope this isnt the first step of the fall of STO... i really think STO wont turn out that great..

They have to have some sort of currence and even though the federation does not use paper money they still had credits which have been mentioned many times in the different series. I personally think they should use a cridit system within the Federation and Gold Pressed Lantinum (sp?) everywhere else.

[SelorKiith]

dude its my topic.. and your telling me to stop posting? lol right, you just like fighting over the turth even tho its right infont of your face, its facts so knock it off you cant win over facts

There are a HELL lot of Episodes where it is stated that the Federation itselfs uses "credits" as a form of currency...
So YOU are the one that is ignoring facts... not everyone else..

[Varrangian]

remember in first contact picard was tilling that 2067 women on the enterprise money doesnt exist any more. she ask how much (this thing cost) and then said you dont get payed?

then picard said they work to better them selfs.. how do you explain that?
i would take picard's side any day

Yeah ain't it great how Trek constantly contradicts itself? Makes it hard to be a self-righteous Trekker don't it? :rolleyes:

[Meeber]

will they said credits...and i can't help to think it would be some kind of Gold.. do missions from Starfleet and get a reward of 1400$ credits... makes me sad i was hoping we got pass the use of money in a STO mmo


Then what do you purpos instead?

[Awarkle]

I suspect that the economics of the federation are quite different to the economics of the ferengi, for instance. although starfleet dont get paid to do their jobs i really doubt that they would allow free reign on the replicators, althouhg we are aplying 20th century values to a 23rd fiction. For instance people within starfleet have no reason for material wealth they dont acumulate rare metals or gemstones and go "MUWAHAHAHA". Instead they pick up trinkets or pieces of art because they like them.

The problem cryptic has is that WE as players want reward for doing somthing and so they have to provide a means of rewarding us. if they gave us prestige such in city of heroes it would still be classed as a money system.

On one hand startrek doesnt need money system but on the other hand how do you reward someone for completing a mission. Do you have an entire economy devoted to trade and barter. You need a defining point and i suppose the universal credit would be used.

ok so its going to be a bit sucky to "save up" for that ubah starship and that i cant remmeber janeway handing over the insurance details before departing ds9. However she would still have had to prove herself by working hard and doing missions. all that cryptic has done is removed one aspect of the game that might be seen as boring. If you had to play the game for 6 months before you could be considered for command that would be an increidbly bad move.

either way it needed some form of curency system, even if they adopted latinum.

[willriker09]

The Federation still does not use money. The upgrade of ships and technology in the game is based on merit. You are awarded these merit based points that you use to move up in rank, similar to the military where someone needs to prove themself before they hop into the admiral's desk.

And, like the Ask Cryptic said, a governing body cannot survivie in a galaxy full of other ones that rely on money in a traditional sense if it has no means of commercial exchange with those other systems.

[Syndica]

The most important thing to remember is that this is an MMO. For an mmo you need some type of reward system. That is what keeps the players in the game. It's the carrot on the stick that makes the game run. With out some type of reward in place the game would be meaningless. While it would be interesting to see a currency free game world it just wouldn't work for an mmo.

[Varrangian]

I suspect that the economics of the federation are quite different to the economics of the ferengi, for instance. although starfleet dont get paid to do their jobs i really doubt that they would allow free reign on the replicators, althouhg we are aplying 20th century values to a 23rd fiction. For instance people within starfleet have no reason for material wealth they dont acumulate rare metals or gemstones and go "MUWAHAHAHA". Instead they pick up trinkets or pieces of art because they like them.

Actually it is applying 21st century values to 20th century fiction about the 23rd century. This is important to note because it muddles the problem even more. Utopianism really died out in the 20th century, and part of Trek is a naive utopian dream.

I'm no doubt going to be called a non-Trekkie for saying the above, but hey it is not like people around here like me much any ways... just remember I own two of the series and most of the movies on DVD, so I must hate it a bunch to spend that kind of money ;-)

[dturne10]

true uhura did have credits to buy a tribble..but thats different from TNG DS9 and Voy

its how the writers made Star Trek... Like how the Klingons Look different from TOS to DS9
its stuff no one can explain in the show. but off the show the writers change it and never spoke about it again because its not part of Starfleet and what they believe in


But they do explain it in the show. Did you ever watch Enterprise? There's a canon explanation for the apparent lack of forehead ridges in TOS Vs. TMP onward.

As for the credit system... it's a visible representation of what happens in the show. Players need a concrete number to stare at, not some ethereal concept of merit based prestige.

If you the OP can think of a better, non arbitrary way to implement the Federation type economy, I will be thoroughly impressed.

[Kyias]

It would be more interesting if the federation operated on "prestige credit" based on your deeds rather than physical money to be spent.

Outside of the federation it would make sense that we would recieve a stipend from Starfleet if we were buying something outside the federation that uses a money based economy.

[cv_coco]

Actually it is applying 21st century values to 20th century fiction about the 23rd century. This is important to note because it muddles the problem even more. Utopianism really died out in the 20th century, and part of Trek is a naive utopian dream.

I'm no doubt going to be called a non-Trekkie for saying the above, but hey it is not like people around here like me much any ways... just remember I own two of the series and most of the movies on DVD, so I must hate it a bunch to spend that kind of money ;-)

Blasphemy!!

Still deciding on which paragraph it should apply though ;)

Although I don't entirely agree that utopianism has died, just that more people realise that it is just that.
As far as economy is concerned, you'll always have to have an external bargaining system. Whether it's based on latinum, credits or resources is beside the point.

[Meeber]

remember in first contact picard was tilling that 2067 women on the enterprise money doesnt exist any more. she ask how much (this thing cost) and then said you dont get payed?

then picard said they work to better them selfs.. how do you explain that?
i would take picard's side any day


6 quoted examples to one. Well I will go to the 6 examples the the Federation uses credits.

[Meeber]

i dont think so..

but it seems like there is no way to get it to your peoples head that STO isnt about money and buying it over some website while are accounts get hack,,,

i was really looking forward to not useing money to buy crap.. i hate it, i remember playing SWG, buying guns and crap wasnt to fun, same with wow and there spam in the gerenal chat about buying gold,,,

Game would suck if you did not have some sort of currency system. I hate to have stuff handed to me for free.

[Raven0238]

Other Star Trek games that people, do in fact still play also had currency within the Federation, Armada 1 and 2 had it as well as Birth of the Federation. The "credit" system does make sense and it makes the game workable instead of everyone getting everything for free, if you expected that, then everyone should point and laugh at you.:eek:

[Captain_K.C.]

Umm, news flash, the Federation has always had a credit system. Federation Credit (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Federation_credit). Picard's one statement is not backed up, where as the Federation Credit has been mentioned in every series to date, from TOS to Voyager.

Star Trek universe, the Federaion, etc. may not have money or currency as we know it, but they will have somethiing to facilitate trade. It can't be avoided.

Maybe the final release of the game will have one or two kinds of systems: one for inside the Fed (like replicator credits), one for commerce with other non-Fed species (gold-pressed latinum?). Me, I'm hoping that the points we get for doing stuff like completing missions will count for something.

[neomarsala]

The whole "no money" aspect of Start Trek has always been a little vague as to what exactly that means. They obviously have some kind of income, because various characters are always shown buying things.

It's also one area in which I've never agreed with Star Trek. The Federation couldn't function in the galaxy without some kind of currency. Picard's statement in FC contact about "amassing wealth is no longer the driving force, behind humanity" is just silly. Non of us go to work for the sole purpose of amassing wealth just for the joy of having it. An economy is simply part of civilization, it always has been and it always will be. At least until we all evolve into Q's.

[CanyonTrader]

Starfleet also uses apostrophes properly.

[AchillesHeel]

Starfleet also uses apostrophes properly.
Damn. Beat me to it. :p

Non of us go to work for the sole purpose of amassing wealth just for the joy of having it.
Have you been following the news lately?

[JeanNYGUARD]

so starfleet use's moeny? so picard save up his money for a galaxy class blueprints? and upgrades?

i hope this isnt the first step of the fall of STO... i really think STO wont turn out that great..

Youll get used to it. I didnt like the system of Credits in Birth of The Federation, since The Federation doesnt use money or any type of currency. I had to deal with it... In the end... I just ignored it. Just remember its non cannon.

[djnattyd]

Outside of the federation it would make sense that we would recieve a stipend from Starfleet if we were buying something outside the federation that uses a money based economy.

Still doesm't solve the problem of character from Trek buying stuff when there's "no money". If cash does not exist within the UFP then how would Starfleet give you cash to buy from non-Federation races?

[akira84729]

because th4e federation still deals in other powers with resources, based on that the federation has established a strong import export economy, being a colonial power it's worlds have exploitable resources that it uses in line with an external credit system to barter... will you need credits on earth? no, if you are a federation citzen on earth you don't pay for a thing all services are maintained in very socialistic way available is allowed due to priority interms of what field of service and so on.... but in dealing on the borders with other region powers and individualized member planets who do not share same economic systems the UFP credit system works, of course for most officers in the service it's sqaundered cause they don't have to use there credits unless they are deployed away the common conveniences of the core planets in the fed... currency is a relaity of any advanced society even a faux utopia arrangement such as the federation.

[Korrific]

Still doesm't solve the problem of character from Trek buying stuff when there's "no money". If cash does not exist within the UFP then how would Starfleet give you cash to buy from non-Federation races?
There's always the expense account model. Maybe UFP citizens don't use money, but agencies within the Federation cover a certain amount of "purchases" that citizens make from non-UFP merchants. Said merchants can claim reimbursement from the Fed agencies in the form of hard currency (e.g., gold-pressed latinum), or in goods and services.

Hence the term "credits" instead of, say, dollars or wampum or latinum.

As to how the Federation economy works internally, remember that "economy" does not equal "money." The economy is the production and distribution of goods and services. Money is a tool to make distribution easier. It's possible that technological advances in economics, both the physical and social sides, could make money, as we understand it, effectively obsolete. This would imply that Picard's statement about not amassing wealth isn't based on any moral or sense or social value, but, rather, on the fact that "wealth" no longer actually means anything within the Federation.

So what would this mean in game? No idea. :o For the sake of gameplay, I'm guessing we 21st century types will have to deal with something that looks, smells, and quacks like money. :p

[Loekii]

The Federation doesn't use money internally. But they do use a credit system to keep track of resource expenditures. In the first episode of ST:TNG, Dr. Crusher tells a merchant to charge a purchase to her account on her ship. When dealing with non-Federation cultures, Starfleet personnel have dealt in latinum. Dax routinely earned/lost latinum playing tongo with Quark.

So, I assume Cryptic will follow canon. The "Ask Cryptic" answer says that Federation players will interact with outside worlds using latinum. But I doubt Captains will have to earn enough bars of latiunim to "buy" and upgrade from Starfleet. Internal Federation trades will probably be based on prestige or credit rewards. These could then be converted to latinum for dealing with non-Federation worlds...I hope.

Of course, if it's all latinum all the time, then I agree with Manx that Cryptic is streamlining. I won't like it, but it won't kill the game for me.

I tend to agree with this. It sounds like the GPL will be used in various Episodes and to buy more 'fluff' stuff, rather than be the method to aquire ships and upgrades. I expect to see a more 'renown' based system -- ie where you earn ships and upgrades via you experience and efforts (like experience points). Basically Starfleet/KDF promotes you as you progress in the game, rather than you 'buying' things.

It would be more interesting if the federation operated on "prestige credit" based on your deeds rather than physical money to be spent.

Outside of the federation it would make sense that we would receive a stipend from Starfleet if we were buying something outside the federation that uses a money based economy.

I don't recall any episodes where a star fleet captain had to 'purchase' his/her ship, upgrades or even repairs, so I would hope that STO avoids implementing any system like that into the game. I agree with the idea of 'Prestige' credits, used at a Starbase to order the upgrades, you earned -- and did not 'trade'. It creates an 'economic' system, without turning it into a Ferengi system.

[TruthSeer]

I am still holding out hope for each side having a non tangible credit system for internal use, and then a third tangible for use with eachother and non faction NPCs. So the federation might have prestige and the Klingons might have Honor. But they would both also gain latinum or credits or something.

Well they said they are using credits and latinum. So it would seem latinum will be a between faction currency and credits will be inter faction. I think prestige would be a better world than credits. A build up of prestige would fit better in acquiring new ships and upgrades.

[Nasedo]

There are a HELL lot of Episodes where it is stated that the Federation itselfs uses "credits" as a form of currency...
So YOU are the one that is ignoring facts... not everyone else..

proof please and not from TOS because i really dont think it ties in with TNG DS9 and Voy that well

[DrJackWolfe]

Prestige in City of Heros is supposed just that Prestige, Fame. As you fame goes up you can ask for stuff, but when you do it tarnishes your rep. Hell the inspirations weren't supposed to physical either. We morphed them into that <how's that for un flexible cannonating>

I've always suspected each Eath and maybe Fed citizens gets an energy alotment.

Canonical
Reoccuring
Energy
Disbursement
Invidual
Tax
Suppliment

Nearly unlimited energy might lead to this. The ability to convert energy into matter and back or do subatomic restructuring lowers the value of almost everthing basic to nil. That said. Warp Coils are probably Energy Expensive and certian things cannot casually be replicated (although I'm sure we'l see a break from this, we always do.) I personally hope the systems is a merit/prestige illusion slapped on top of game and not a credit system (cause there is no way I'm buying Picard payed for the Galaxy Class, much less the Soverign. He earned them)

[Future_Guy]

What people also have to remember is this game is set in 2409, 36 years after First Contact, and if the Federation is at war then maybe the use of credits had to be introduced. A lot can change, this is even shown with the Klingons who are now fighting the Federation at this point in time.

[Azurian]

Seems quite the topic of discussion wither or not the Federation uses money.

My impression is that within the Federation, they don't use currency (which fulfill's what Picard said in First Contact). But when they are outside the Federation, Starfleet Personel have saved credits in personal accounts that they can use as payment or convert to other currencies like Latinium.

So like with Dax, she apparently went to the bank and they converted her Federation credits to Latinum and then off to the Tongo game. ;)

[Tranchera]

remember in first contact picard was tilling that 2067 women on the enterprise money doesnt exist any more. she ask how much (this thing cost) and then said you dont get payed?

then picard said they work to better them selfs.. how do you explain that?
i would take picard's side any day
You're looking at this way too literally.

The Federation doesn't internally trade money. They would use money with other races. For internal trading, there's probably some sort of arbitrary "prestige" points that'll be used instead of money, but it's all the same thing because that's how MMOs work.

[Nasedo]

You're looking at this way too literally.

The Federation doesn't internally trade money. They would use money with other races. For internal trading, there's probably some sort of arbitrary "prestige" points that'll be used instead of money, but it's all the same thing because that's how MMOs work.

ok so we get money... how much do you think captain picard was making in that 7+ years on the enterprise-D?

how much does a Captain Rank make per hour/Week?

anyone?

[Vulcan_Sipho]

to all the posters who have replied tothis thread above me, you are breaking rule #3 never argue with a troll, you can never win.

[Nasedo]

to all the posters who have replied tothis thread above me, you are breaking rule #3 never argue with a troll, you can never win.

we are discussing how starfleet use's money...

if you want to join in fine.. tell me how starfleet use's money still.. and how to they grain money if there working 8 to 12 hours a day? you dont see worf haveing a part time job or picard... just explain it thats all i ask
or a dev could post to explain this real quick

[Mattastic]

I think the main issue at stake is not whether or not the "enlightened" inhabitants of the future use money, but whether or not the average MMO player is mature enough to be let loose in a moneyless economy. I would strongly argue "no". To most people, "no money" will equal "I demand free stuff", and there will be anarchy without a means to regulate the distribution of items based on some form of merit. It's ridiculous to expect MMO players to maintain the lofty moral and intellectual standards of the 24th century.

[TechDragon]

James T. Kirk stated that the Federation Starfleet had a lot invested in both he and Commander Spock. In fact, Starfleet had 122,200 plus credits invested in Spock by the end of 2267. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", "The Apple")

In 2267, Uhura offered to purchase a tribble for ten credits. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles")

In 2269, Harry Mudd was selling love potion crystals with 300 credits a piece before he had realized they actually work. (TAS: "Mudd's Passion")

In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

The Federation would have paid 1.5 million Federation credits as a lump sum and then 100,000 credits every Barzanian year for the rights to the Barzan wormhole. (TNG: "The Price")

Quark accepted credits in his bar when doing business with Federation citizens. (DS9: "Body Parts", "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"; VOY: "Caretaker")

It is hard to disagree with this information.

It's definitely true there is evidence that the Federation uses credits in some type of system. It's also true that there are plenty of times where they say that they don't use money.

The logical answer would be that they simply do not view credits as money. At least, not within the Federation. Within the Federation credits are most likely used for transporter and maybe power or replicator usage. You wouldn't need to buy much anyway with replicators. But outside of the Federation credits probably are used more like currency. That's why Dr. Crusher and Quark use them in that fashion. Other species covet them for their use at Federation facilities.

So what to do with them in the game? Think of it like this. With a credit system in place, you would gain credits for completion of successful missions, as a reward for mercenary work, and as payment by other species (or goods you turn into credits later). You then use these credits to invest in technological upgrades for your ship.

With a different system, say Prestige or Reputation, you would gain rep for completion of successful missions, as a reward for mercenary work, and as payment by other species (or goods you turn into rep later). You then use this rep to invest in technological upgrades for your ship.

Any upgrade system I can think of is Action -> Type of Reward -> Reward Used for Upgrades and Improvements.

I understand the Star Trek aversion to calling it money, or even thinking people USE money anymore. But whatever you want to call it, some type of numbers system needs to exist for measuring progress. Whatever it is called doesn't matter all that much to me. Credits is just another word I'll use in my head to measure my mission progress. I'm not in Starfleet to gain credits, but I'm not ignorant of what they're used for or why they need to exist either.

[BreachAndClear]

I'm simply restating a point that others, including the Ask Cryptic section, have made. The Federation has outgrown the reuse of money internally, but members of Starfleet are obviously given a stipend of some kind. I think it's simply the mentality of the situation. Members of Starfleet are paid, but this is so they can participate and take part in the economies of other civilizations. It's not like Picard signed up with Starfleet because he was going to get paid a lot of money, he did it for self betterment. Yes, he's getting paid, but that is because out in the galaxy, there are many civilizations in which the exchange of services and currency is still going on.

If he needed to purchase a new warp coil from a foreign species that wanted to be paid in latinum, I don't think that the excuse "No, it's OK, we don't use money in the Federation, just give me the warp coil, it's fine," would fly.


Things like trade are still going on, and it is in the Federation's best interest to participate in that trade, if for no other reason than to improve relations with civilizations that don't have the same philosophy.

Now, Cryptic has stated that we're not able to one day say, "hmmm, I want a better ship," and just receive it for free. It was stated that we'll have to have the credits to buy it. This particular point is inconsistent with canon; Picard received a commission aboard the Enterprise, he didn't have to buy the Enterprise-D and -E out of his own pocket. Cryptic might have chosen to force players to pay for ships for the sack of gameplay. Continuity simply is taking one for the team in this particular instance.

[TechDragon]

I agree completely. Though to give the Cryptic team some credit, maybe they will come up with an interesting and lore-consistent way to use the credits to get the new ship. Some kind of... Starship License perhaps. Or maybe we'll buy everything besides ships, with the ships themselves being more of a rank reward we can unlock and put a deposit on in case they get destroyed in these warlike times so they can use your credits to rebuild/repair it when it gets damaged or destroyed.

[onesoul1982]

Happy now ? took it from memory alpha. probably the most cannon site there is

James T. Kirk stated that the Federation Starfleet had a lot invested in both he and Commander Spock. In fact, Starfleet had 122,200 plus credits invested in Spock by the end of 2267. (TOS: "Errand of Mercy", "The Apple")

In 2267, Uhura offered to purchase a tribble for ten credits. (TOS: "The Trouble with Tribbles")

In 2269, Harry Mudd was selling love potion crystals with 300 credits a piece before he had realized they actually work. (TAS: "Mudd's Passion")

In 2364, Beverly Crusher bought a roll of cloth and had her account on the USS Enterprise-D billed. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint")

The Federation would have paid 1.5 million Federation credits as a lump sum and then 100,000 credits every Barzanian year for the rights to the Barzan wormhole. (TNG: "The Price")

Quark accepted credits in his bar when doing business with Federation citizens. (DS9: "Body Parts", "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"; VOY: "Caretaker")


Oh snap xD <3 you

but in all seriousness. A barter system of some sorts will always exist within the Universe. It's mostly an exchange of one type of energy for another. You give A and get B. It just how things are.

[LordDave]

You know, reading this thread got me thinking...

What if the economy of the Federation is a credit account with an X limit, where X is based on your job. While housing and food is freely available, your job gives you the power to purchase things. As you perform your job, your credit is replenished, but it never goes over the X limit.

So for example:

Picard purchases a sculpted head for 2,000 federation credits. His account on the Enterprise has a limit of 50,000 credits, which leaves him 48,000 credits. Every week of service he is replenished 1,000 credits. So after two weeks he now has his 50,000 credit limit again. He doesn't purchase anything else for another month so at the end of the month his limit is still 50,000 credits. These credits can be converted into gold-pressed latinum for use with non-Federation merchants. I'm sure one of the major tasks the Ferengi will have as a member of the Federation is to conduct currency exchanges between the Federation credit and gold-pressed latinum.

Now, this wouldn't work for a game, but Cryptic has decided to create a transporter credit and a replicator credit. Now, if I had to guess, I'd say transporter in this sense wasn't "beaming" credits, but the credit you have that allows you to purchase ships. A replicator credit, then is the credits that allow you to purchase objects like upgrades or a potted plant for your quarters.
Now, it's very possible that you can take a "pool" and move the credits between the two as well as "recycle" minerals. So let's say you go out and mine some rocks. You take that and recycle it, converting it into replicator credits. You can then transfer those replicator credits into Transporter Credits. Technology that you don't need can also be recycled for replicator credits.
Your ship, if you decide to "sell it" can be converted into transporter credits.
When you craft things, you can probably "sell it" for the replicator credit value. (if you can sell to other players)

[BreachAndClear]

You know, reading this thread got me thinking...

What if the economy of the Federation is a credit account with an X limit, where X is based on your job. While housing and food is freely available, your job gives you the power to purchase things. As you perform your job, your credit is replenished, but it never goes over the X limit.

So for example:

Picard purchases a sculpted head for 2,000 federation credits. His account on the Enterprise has a limit of 50,000 credits, which leaves him 48,000 credits. Every week of service he is replenished 1,000 credits. So after two weeks he now has his 50,000 credit limit again. He doesn't purchase anything else for another month so at the end of the month his limit is still 50,000 credits. These credits can be converted into gold-pressed latinum for use with non-Federation merchants. I'm sure one of the major tasks the Ferengi will have as a member of the Federation is to conduct currency exchanges between the Federation credit and gold-pressed latinum.

A credit cap based on rank would be a nice way of promoting a player economy, given that there wouldn't be any incentive to hoard credits. E.G. a lower level player may as well spend his credits on lower level equipment, because the cap will prevent him from buying higher level equipment. It could also provide an alternative to having level requirements for purchasing weapons and equipment. For instance, in SWG there might be a rifle that requires a level of 43 to use. However, since STO isn't to have a traditional level system, a credit cap could regulate whose buying what. So instead of only allowing level 43 to buy a weapon, perhaps you have to be a Lieutenant or greater in rank, since they're the only ones that can carry enough credits to meet the price of the weapon.

[BreachAndClear]

Oh snap xD <3 you

but in all seriousness. A barter system of some sorts will always exist within the Universe. It's mostly an exchange of one type of energy for another. You give A and get B. It just how things are.

I agree. And furthermore, it just makes sense. Say planet A and planet B are very much dependent on each other economically, with loans and trade being passed back and forth all the time. Planet B then joins the Federation and gives up its use of credits. That leaves planet A in ruins as its loans to planet B are not going to be repaid and planet A can no longer sell its goods to planet B as a thriving market. Planet A now has reason to be hostile to the Federation.

While planets that join the Federation might give up the use of credits internally, the Federation must still participate in galactic economics to maintain stability.

[LordDave]

A credit cap based on rank would be a nice way of promoting a player economy, given that there wouldn't be any incentive to hoard credits. E.G. a lower level player may as well spend his credits on lower level equipment, because the cap will prevent him from buying higher level equipment. It could also provide an alternative to having level requirements for purchasing weapons and equipment. For instance, in SWG there might be a rifle that requires a level of 43 to use. However, since STO isn't to have a traditional level system, a credit cap could regulate whose buying what. So instead of only allowing level 43 to buy a weapon, perhaps you have to be a Lieutenant or greater in rank, since they're the only ones that can carry enough credits to meet the price of the weapon.

Oh I'm not promoting a credit cap. That was just an example for how the Federation may work. As I said, it doesn't work for a game.

[BreachAndClear]

Oh I'm not promoting a credit cap. That was just an example for how the Federation may work. As I said, it doesn't work for a game.

You say that, but I like the idea, and I don't quite follow your explanation as to why it doesn't work.

[LordDave]

You say that, but I like the idea, and I don't quite follow your explanation as to why it doesn't work.

Because there would be no savings. No reason to craft, to sell, to mine, ect... because you couldn't get anything that was beyond your credit limit.

Now granted, it would stop gold farming very, very nicely. And I suppose you could have things you "sell" replenish your limit, but once you reach that limit and had it replenished, you'd have no need to do anything else until you bought more stuff.

You also have the issue of what happens if you go over the limit.
Let's say your limit is 5,000 credits. You have 4,500 credits left on your limit. You sell something for 1,000 credits. What happens to that other 500 credits? Does it go away? Does it get stored somewhere?

[Korrific]

Oh I'm not promoting a credit cap. That was just an example for how the Federation may work. As I said, it doesn't work for a game.
Seems like it could, though - it'd just be a very different model from the GP system we're all used to.

Just off the top of my head, you could earn some sort of prestige for completing missions, discovering new resources, contacting new sentients, or even mining space-thorium and turning over the ore to the nearest Starbase. Accumulate enough prestige, and you could turn it in for a small bump to your credit cap - or save it up for a promotion, which would come with a large credit bump.

If the economy is supposed to be player-run, like EVE, then you're right, it couldn't work. I may have missed something, but I haven't heard that the economy will be like that. I've only heard that the economy will play an important role, which could mean anything (e.g., it could be important plot-hook for missions).

Also, credit, even if capped, is still "money," but I'm hoping the TrueFans will make concessions for those of us who are less advanced :D

[BreachAndClear]

Perhaps you can exceed your limit, but any excess gradually decays over time if you do not spend it?

[AchillesHeel]

Now, Cryptic has stated that we're not able to one day say, "hmmm, I want a better ship," and just receive it for free. It was stated that we'll have to have the credits to buy it. This particular point is inconsistent with canon; Picard received a commission aboard the Enterprise, he didn't have to buy the Enterprise-D and -E out of his own pocket.
Right. Exactly. The traditional MMO economy simply doesn't apply to officers in Star Fleet (or any other Star Trek navy except perhaps the Ferengi). Arguing about whether the Federation uses money is irrelevant. Arguing about whether the economy shown in Star Trek is realistic is irrelevant. How much money does a U.S. Navy officer pay to captain a ship?

Cryptic might have chosen to force players to pay for ships for the sack of gameplay. Continuity simply is taking one for the team in this particular instance.
That would be incredibly lazy game design. If this game is going to be like that, I hope they tell us in advance, so I can save my money.

[LordDave]

How much money does a U.S. Navy officer pay to captain a ship?

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp
Depends on years of service and such. But that's the general gist of it.

That would be incredibly lazy game design. If this game is going to be like that, I hope they tell us in advance, so I can save my money.
Then you should save your money. Look, you can't have a game where you do missions until you rank up and then "ok, you can choose whatever ship you want within this range". Maybe you want to swap out. Maybe you want a spare. Whatever the case, you need something that allows you to get another ship before you rank.
Now I agree that a first level should not be able to save up and buy a galaxy and I assume there will be rank limits on ships. But I don't agree that all your ships should be free upon ranking.

[BreachAndClear]

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp
Depends on years of service and such. But that's the general gist of it

That's not what he meant. That's how much money an officer gets paid by the Navy. A Naval officer doesn't have to pay the navy to captain a ship. The captain of the USS Kitty Hawk (a US naval vessel) didn't have to buy the ship to be the captain, he was assigned to it.

[LordDave]

That's not what he meant. That's how much money an officer gets paid by the Navy. A Naval officer doesn't have to pay the navy to captain a ship. The captain of the USS Kitty Hawk (a US naval vessel) didn't have to buy the ship to be the captain, he was assigned to it.

Well yes. But that won't work in a game because then you'd have to FORCE players to a specific ship. It would also screw with the whole "customization" ability of player ships.

[BreachAndClear]

I don't disagree with you. I don't think ships should be "free" but I don't think credits are the way to go in buying ships. Perhaps prestige would be an alternate source of "currency" with which to purchase a ship. Prestige would make more sense than money. I.E. you've made a name for yourself so Starfleet allows you to "purchase" a commission aboard a Sovereign. It makes more sense than saving up money and paying Starfleet.

[LordDave]

I don't disagree with you. I don't think ships should be "free" but I don't think credits are the way to go in buying ships. Perhaps prestige would be an alternate source of "currency" with which to purchase a ship. Prestige would make more sense than money. I.E. you've made a name for yourself so Starfleet allows you to "purchase" a commission aboard a Sovereign. It makes more sense than saving up money and paying Starfleet.

Meh, I don't see how it matters what it's called: It's still the same thing.
Granted, I like the idea of prestige myself, but they've already said that the currencies would be "transport credit, replicator credit, and gold-pressed latinum.
Though I suppose it's possible that they will have multiple credits, including prestige, and all of them will be interchangeable.

[BreachAndClear]

Well, this is just my own thoughts, but prestige and currency should not be interchangeable.

Prestige should be absolute - i.e. does not decay - and should be used to purchase ranks and commissions. Though a cap should exist such that you cannot save up enough prestige to jump from ensign to commander without going through the ranks in between. Perhaps prestige resets to zero after purchasing a rank.

So, say that if it requires 10,000 prestige to "purchase" a lieutenant rank, 30,000 to "purchase" lieutenant-commander, and 20,000 to "purchase" a Miranda class ship (which just for this scenario, let's suppose is available to ensigns). Now say you have 50,000 prestige as an ensign. You cannot purchase the rank of lieutenant-commander because you are not yet a lieutenant, and if you purchase the rank of lieutenant your prestige will reset to zero such that you'll have to re-earn 20,000 prestige to purchase a commission as captain of a Miranda class. The player should thus ensure that they spend all the excess prestige they have above the limit required to go up in rank. You have 50,000 but you only need 10,000. Spend the remaining 40,000 on the Miranda and anything else before ranking up, otherwise it will go to waste.

Currency on the other hand should decay. Say at 10% per hour (or whatever decay rate is most conducive to gameplay). Such that say the ensign rank has a 5,000 credit limit and an ensign sells an item for an additional 5,000 over that limit - i.e. 10,000 - you'll lose 1000 of that in the following hour of gameplay, and 900 in the hour after that, etc. until you get back down to 5,000. Such that you'll be able to purchase equipment disproportional to your rank, but the decay rate will keep this within a reasonable margin and force players to spend their money quickly.

In a game like SWG, it's incredibly hard to start as a new artisan. People hoard their money from the beginning, and so nobody is buying the lower level equipment from artisans. They rely on loot and rewards for the lower levels and then start buying from artisans at the higher levels. It's not uncommon to see low level artisans receiving huge handouts from high level players, because selling items is not particularly profitable. And artisans end up having to charge ridiculous prices for the more useful (yet uncomplex) items. If players are allowed to hoard credits from the very beginning, I'd imagine a similar system would follow in STO a year or two after launch. If you keep a credit cap that is proportional to rank, lower ranked characters won't avoid buying low level equipment, because it's not like they can save up for anything better. It would ensure that equipment at all levels would stay in demand. However, player created weapons and items should always be slightly better than free equipment obtained as loot, IMO. This wasn't necessarily the case in SWG.

My system is by no means perfect, and I'm sure someone can poke holes in it, but the point is that with enough creative minds, there are ways to make a credit cap system work; even if my creativity in itself cannot come up with such a system.

[DanSeale]

Well, this is just my own thoughts, but prestige and currency should not be interchangeable.

Prestige should be absolute - i.e. does not decay - and should be used to purchase ranks and commissions. Though a cap should exist such that you cannot save up enough prestige to jump from ensign to commander without going through the ranks in between. Perhaps prestige resets to zero after purchasing a rank.

So, say that if it requires 10,000 prestige to "purchase" a lieutenant rank, 30,000 to "purchase" lieutenant-commander, and 20,000 to "purchase" a Miranda class ship (which just for this scenario, let's suppose is available to ensigns). Now say you have 50,000 prestige as an ensign. You cannot purchase the rank of lieutenant-commander because you are not yet a lieutenant, and if you purchase the rank of lieutenant your prestige will reset to zero such that you'll have to re-earn 20,000 prestige to purchase a commission as captain of a Miranda class. The player should thus ensure that they spend all the excess prestige they have above the limit required to go up in rank. You have 50,000 but you only need 10,000. Spend the remaining 40,000 on the Miranda and anything else before ranking up, otherwise it will go to waste.

Currency on the other hand should decay. Say at 10% per hour (or whatever decay rate is most conducive to gameplay). Such that say the ensign rank has a 5,000 credit limit and an ensign sells an item for an additional 5,000 over that limit - i.e. 10,000 - you'll lose 1000 of that in the following hour of gameplay, and 900 in the hour after that, etc. until you get back down to 5,000. Such that you'll be able to purchase equipment disproportional to your rank, but the decay rate will keep this within a reasonable margin and force players to spend their money quickly.

In a game like SWG, it's incredibly hard to start as a new artisan. People hoard their money from the beginning, and so nobody is buying the lower level equipment from artisans. They rely on loot and rewards for the lower levels and then start buying from artisans at the higher levels. It's not uncommon to see low level artisans receiving huge handouts from high level players, because selling items is not particularly profitable. And artisans end up having to charge ridiculous prices for the more useful (yet uncomplex) items. If players are allowed to hoard credits from the very beginning, I'd imagine a similar system would follow in STO a year or two after launch. If you keep a credit cap that is proportional to rank, lower ranked characters won't avoid buying low level equipment, because it's not like they can save up for anything better. It would ensure that equipment at all levels would stay in demand. However, player created weapons and items should always be slightly better than free equipment obtained as loot, IMO. This wasn't necessarily the case in SWG.

My system is by no means perfect, and I'm sure someone can poke holes in it, but the point is that with enough creative minds, there are ways to make a credit cap system work; even if my creativity in itself cannot come up with such a system.

If I'm understanding you correctly ... see if this works .

Rather than thinking that ALL gains in the game will be through monitary transactions what if it is instead a combination of things:

1. Credits : used to purchase some items ..
... A. Consumables
... B. Defensive net working items
... C. Small weapons or side arms
... D. Daily ship maintenance ( and simularly related items )
2. Prestige points primarly used for earning the rights to or access to
... A. Bigger ships
... B. Specialized technologies
... C. Adding NPC crew members or improving their skills)
... D. Space Stations
3. Salvage items from questing .. used to obtain specialized technologoes:
... A. Improved skills or abilitiese
... B. Rare Technology items
... C. Ship improvements
... D. Materials for building items
4. Auction House from other players (purchased via credits)
5. Research Technologies / crafting (a combination of the two)
6. Trading

In other words, the "money" gold or what ever is used is only an exchange comodity.

I sincerly hope that those who dont like the idea of "cash" in a Trek game also realize that in a very real since of the word that the Fderation also uesd varrious means of "negotiating" or "paying" for materials and service rendered to other societies who were still dependant upon "money" for survival.

Do you really think that the Federation in all of its nobility simply "stiffed" everyone that they cam in contact with? (this statement is not ment to be said harshly or in a rant .. so please don't read it that way)

Nothing wrong with asking the question about money since it was very clear all through Trek that mone (on EARTH) was done away with. The point then remains ... what about every where else ?

At any rate .. this is something I hope we can all get past and help see STO become a reality.

[Bamf]

And, like the Ask Cryptic said, a governing body cannot survivie in a galaxy full of other ones that rely on money in a traditional sense if it has no means of commercial exchange with those other systems.

A PERFECT example of this, on a smaller scale, is DS9. Although Bashir, Dax and Sisko are all part of the federation, they all live on a station populated by mostly other races which rely on a monetary system different to the federation.

So throughout the series you WILL find SEVERAL examples of Bashir Dax and Sisko each using federation credits AND LATINUM (yes, latinum, there are several episodes where they have saved/used LATINUM like the rest of the galaxy) to do business.

To say that the federation could exists without a form of currency to trade with other races is IDIOTIC. at some point you people will have to realize that economics both WITHIN and OUTISIDE the federation exists and operates WITH credits/latinum/tuliberry wine!

[LordDave]

Well, this is just my own thoughts, but prestige and currency should not be interchangeable.

Prestige should be absolute - i.e. does not decay - and should be used to purchase ranks and commissions. Though a cap should exist such that you cannot save up enough prestige to jump from ensign to commander without going through the ranks in between. Perhaps prestige resets to zero after purchasing a rank.

So, say that if it requires 10,000 prestige to "purchase" a lieutenant rank, 30,000 to "purchase" lieutenant-commander, and 20,000 to "purchase" a Miranda class ship (which just for this scenario, let's suppose is available to ensigns). Now say you have 50,000 prestige as an ensign. You cannot purchase the rank of lieutenant-commander because you are not yet a lieutenant, and if you purchase the rank of lieutenant your prestige will reset to zero such that you'll have to re-earn 20,000 prestige to purchase a commission as captain of a Miranda class. The player should thus ensure that they spend all the excess prestige they have above the limit required to go up in rank. You have 50,000 but you only need 10,000. Spend the remaining 40,000 on the Miranda and anything else before ranking up, otherwise it will go to waste.

Currency on the other hand should decay. Say at 10% per hour (or whatever decay rate is most conducive to gameplay). Such that say the ensign rank has a 5,000 credit limit and an ensign sells an item for an additional 5,000 over that limit - i.e. 10,000 - you'll lose 1000 of that in the following hour of gameplay, and 900 in the hour after that, etc. until you get back down to 5,000. Such that you'll be able to purchase equipment disproportional to your rank, but the decay rate will keep this within a reasonable margin and force players to spend their money quickly.

In a game like SWG, it's incredibly hard to start as a new artisan. People hoard their money from the beginning, and so nobody is buying the lower level equipment from artisans. They rely on loot and rewards for the lower levels and then start buying from artisans at the higher levels. It's not uncommon to see low level artisans receiving huge handouts from high level players, because selling items is not particularly profitable. And artisans end up having to charge ridiculous prices for the more useful (yet uncomplex) items. If players are allowed to hoard credits from the very beginning, I'd imagine a similar system would follow in STO a year or two after launch. If you keep a credit cap that is proportional to rank, lower ranked characters won't avoid buying low level equipment, because it's not like they can save up for anything better. It would ensure that equipment at all levels would stay in demand. However, player created weapons and items should always be slightly better than free equipment obtained as loot, IMO. This wasn't necessarily the case in SWG.

My system is by no means perfect, and I'm sure someone can poke holes in it, but the point is that with enough creative minds, there are ways to make a credit cap system work; even if my creativity in itself cannot come up with such a system.

You just described an XP system. Replace the word Prestige with XP. :p

[DanSeale]

You just described an XP system. Replace the word Prestige with XP. :p

Yup .. pretty much. Some MMO's use XP to grow the "toon" in order to level .. some of other things.

[AchillesHeel]

EDIT: Golly, this thread is moving fast. :p

Then you should save your money. Look, you can't have a game where you do missions until you rank up and then "ok, you can choose whatever ship you want within this range".
Why not?

Maybe you want to swap out. Maybe you want a spare.
A spare? Ship captains in Star Trek have spares? Are you sure we're talking about the same game here?

Though I suppose it's possible that they will have multiple credits, including prestige, and all of them will be interchangeable.
That would be horrible. Star Fleet captains don't earn a commission because of how much latinum they spent on it. That's called graft. A Star Fleet captain who tried to use latinum to get a ship should be court martialed.

Personally, I think the Ferengi and the Orions NEED to be separately playable factions, precisely because they operate in this fashion. This seems to be something that a lot of folks around here desperately want, and I see no reason not to let them have it. Happily, the lore provides us with the Ferengi and the Orions. The Ferengi Navy, for example, is composed entirely of privateers, and the Orions are merchants and pirates.

The Klingon Navy uses a feudal system, what we would call cronyism and/or patronage today. Their emphasis on honor probably makes it work better than patronage has done in the U.S. I don't really know how the Romulan or Cardassian navies operate.

[Vicelance]

I agree with the idea that basic necessaties such as food and housing are free in the Federation especially on Earth but luxuries require credits of some type which are gained through ones job.

I hope that ships and upgrades are based on prestige and how many missions you have done for the faction.

Credits could be used to trade between other races and factions and for buying player made items to other members of your faction.

[DanSeale]

I agree with the idea that basic necessaties such as food and housing are free in the Federation especially on Earth but luxuries require credits of some type which are gained through ones job.

I hope that ships and upgrades are based on prestige and how many missions you have done for the faction.

Credits could be used to trade between other races and factions and for buying player made items to other members of your faction.

I agree with you on the idea of ships and stations being purchased via prestige earned .. that would be good.

Also keep in mind other items in the game as well. Those items would need to be negitiated in one way shape fashion or form .. depending upon where or how the item is discovered or in need of procurement.

[A-British-Ferengi]

Money even if they give it the sophisticated name of credits is a horrible idea that would turn humanity back to what it is now, greedy, selfish, and evil they are going to mess up the federation i know it

[Bamf]

No, currency should not decrease. Couldn't the solution to your problem be a simple level/prestige/rank requirement for larger or more powerful items? I would not want to see my hard earned credits (?) decreasing because I am too low rank.

[BreachAndClear]

You just described an XP system. Replace the word Prestige with XP. :p

Not 100% true. It is in the sense of "buying" ranks. But being able to exceed the XP neccessary to "level" and spend the excess on ships, recruiting better NPCs, etc. differentiates the system from a true XP system.

[BreachAndClear]

No, currency should not decrease. Couldn't the solution to your problem be a simple level/prestige/rank requirement for larger or more powerful items? I would not want to see my hard earned credits (?) decreasing because I am too low rank.

You would be earning credits through selling items and bartering, whether they be crafted, looted, rewarded, etc. They wouldn't really be "hard earned." Through completing missions you would be gaining prestige which is more important to ranking and therefore increasing your credit pool. And prestige would not decay. Hoarding credits leads to horribly organized player economies as you are removing money from circulation causing prices to rise and goods to go unpurchased. Making crafting nearly useless, or at the very least, not living up to its potential, until late/end game.

[Vaercolac]

Well, this is just my own thoughts, but prestige and currency should not be interchangeable.
I like the dual currency model a lot. I say "dual currency," because "prestige" really is currency that you can only use with Starfleet (or the UFP), and only for specific types of purchases, if I'm reading you right.

Two issues, however. First, I think it should be possible to buy hard currency with prestige - in game terms, you're requisitioning latinum. However, I don't think you should be able to do the reverse - you shouldn't be able to "buy" prestige with latinum.

Buying goods with latinum and "donating" the goods for prestige... eh, maybe, I dunno. But if that's possible, I'd expect the prestige to be less than the amount of prestige you'd have to spend for the equivalent amount of latinum - which gets tricky, if you have an open latinum-based market.

Second, I don't see how hard currency decay would actually help anything. Set the decay high enough to "encourage" people to spend quickly, and you may cause people to just drop out of the latinum markets altogether. Set it low enough to allow people to accumulate latinum, and they're more likely to spend it on raw materials that have resale value (e.g. ore) rather than support low-level crafting.

Or maybe I'm reading that part wrong.

As for the contention that a prestige system is really XP, that's kind of stretching the definition of XP a bit... Presumably, you're not spending prestige to learn skills or train up your crew, but rather to get access to and to fit out better ships. It's a parallel advancement system - and if prestige is XP, then I'd argue that Warcraft gold is also XP. :p

[Korrific]

Blech.
"Vaercolac" is me. I gotta stop hopping between this and the Champions Online forum... :(

[DanSeale]

No, currency should not decrease. Couldn't the solution to your problem be a simple level/prestige/rank requirement for larger or more powerful items? I would not want to see my hard earned credits (?) decreasing because I am too low rank.

prestige points or credits should not deteriorate ...

wear and tear on a ship ( and simularly related items ) ... these are maintenance items .... pure and simple.

[BreachAndClear]

Second, I don't see how hard currency decay would actually help anything. Set the decay high enough to "encourage" people to spend quickly, and you may cause people to just drop out of the latinum markets altogether. Set it low enough to allow people to accumulate latinum, and they're more likely to spend it on raw materials that have resale value (e.g. ore) rather than support low-level crafting.

Because accumulating latinum (or whatever the currency) causes prices to go up. In SWG this was to a ridiculous extent. Such that perhaps there's a really good gun that's available at level 20, but it cost 1,000,000 credits. That means you're stuck saving immediately from level 1 in hopes that you'll have the 1,000,000 by level 20. But you might underestimate your credit accumulation, such that it actually takes you to level 30 to get the 1,000,000 and now there's a gun at level 40 that costs 2,000,000 and to be able to afford it, you once again need to start saving now. Such that from level 1-40 your pretty much relying exclusively on loot and rewards to meet your equipment needs. This leaves low level artisans, that lack the skills to develop anything a level 40 player would want, high and dry because nobody is buying their goods.

Nobody would spend money on the weapons you craft at low levels or any other "non-essentials" because they just keep on saving. Thus artisans are stuck finding a product people want, and relying almost exclusively upon it at the lower levels, charging ridiculous prices. By decaying, an ensign is limited to how much they can spend, so why not buy the lower level weapons? Similarly, preventing people from saving 1,000,000s of credits prevents players from charging such ridiculous prices to begin with because nobody would be stupid enough to pay for it, if they could even acquire enough credits in the face of decay.. Whereas if players are allowed to hoard credits, the artisans are able - and to an extent forced - to get away with such prices.

[BreachAndClear]

prestige points or credits should not deteriorate ...

wear and tear on a ship ( and simularly related items ) ... these are maintenance items .... pure and simple.

That's actually an acceptable alternative to money decay itself, though the effect would ultimately be the same in that upkeep would effectively keep your money within a certain range. The money decay was more along the lines of incorporating an artificial system to mirror the economic system alluded to in ST canon. I.E. money is necessary but it is not the driving force, self betterment (represented by prestige) is. Decay rates would still have to be higher than in the standard MMO to successfully pull of an extensively run player economy. If a player economy is not emphasized, then it really is non-essential.

[DanSeale]

Look at it like this:

Prestige points (used for larger ships primarily) .. is something that is earned as a result of the "right o f passage" ... wheather that be from the completion of a mission(s) .. or growing your toon through any one of several different means or methods. That does not necessarily indicate "money" to purchse a ship. As a star ship captain on Trek .. they were not just "given" the ship or the command position: it was earned.

In that same sense of the word the prestige point system makes the most sense for commanding a ship and a player "growing" to the next level of command ( a larger one or even a more sophistated one). The same thing could be said about the NPC staff that we are aparently going to be responsible for. Prestige points make the most sense for this as well.

I'm not quite sure what is best for star bases and defensive systems. Prestige points might be good fot that as well.

As for the rest of the things needed in the game ... a monitary exchage (wheather gold pressed latnium, credits a combination of the two ...... or what ever the comodity) is going to be neccessary.

[DanSeale]

That's actually an acceptable alternative to money decay itself, though the effect would ultimately be the same in that upkeep would effectively keep your money within a certain range. The money decay was more along the lines of incorporating an artificial system to mirror the economic system alluded to in ST canon. I.E. money is necessary but it is not the driving force, self betterment (represented by prestige) is. Decay rates would still have to be higher than in the standard MMO to successfully pull of an extensively run player economy. If a player economy is not emphasized, then it really is non-essential.

Oh I agree 100% ... everything in the game such as ships, space stations, defensive net works .. etc. etc .. WILL NEED to be maintained, spare parts needed .. etc.

[chrisdanger]

Folks, first..this is a GAME based on a work of fiction, not real life so lets just get that straightened out before we start getting our Vulcan ears and Klingon ridges all bent out of shape.

Seeing that the ST universe (both show/film and EU) has always mentioned credits being used in the UFP, as well as other groups/factions using their own credit/monetary systems, its a legit angle that can be played. I wouldnt think the Federation just gives out blueprints, replicated materials and crystals to run a matter/antimatter chamber, same with the Empire and earning cred for Klingon Monster Dog Chow. Like today, you have to earn your keep be it by exploring a planet, performing patrols in the neutral zone or winning a no hold barred, 20 man/klingon/gorn bat'leth deathmatch of honor. The same goes for transport travel between planets/ships/stations, as that energy is part of a finite resource. So, in conclusion, im glad this is getting included...

[Dahakra]

I like the dual currency model a lot. I say "dual currency," because "prestige" really is currency that you can only use with Starfleet (or the UFP), and only for specific types of purchases, if I'm reading you right.

I agree there should be a distinction between "monetary credits" and "prestige". But I disagree that "prestige" should be considered a "currency", I shouldn't IMO. It should be used to determine Rank, within StarFleet, and perhaps the availability of certain newer technologies from StarFleet. Not be traded for consumables or a new colour scheme on your ship or a potted plant for your ready room.



Two issues, however. First, I think it should be possible to buy hard currency with prestige - in game terms, you're requisitioning latinum. However, I don't think you should be able to do the reverse - you shouldn't be able to "buy" prestige with latinum.

On converting prestige to latinum, I think no. On converting latium to prestige, I agree with you, shouldn't happen.


Buying goods with latinum and "donating" the goods for prestige... eh, maybe, I dunno. But if that's possible, I'd expect the prestige to be less than the amount of prestige you'd have to spend for the equivalent amount of latinum - which gets tricky, if you have an open latinum-based market.

I think "donating" goods for prestige will be in game, in a sense. I.e. you may be required to go to a planet in order to acquire new tech etc. and will then "hand" it in to StarFleet Command or whatnot.


Second, I don't see how hard currency decay would actually help anything. Set the decay high enough to "encourage" people to spend quickly, and you may cause people to just drop out of the latinum markets altogether. Set it low enough to allow people to accumulate latinum, and they're more likely to spend it on raw materials that have resale value (e.g. ore) rather than support low-level crafting.

I don't know how currency will decay myself, or a necessity to do so. I meant these coins in my pocket don't decay if I don't spend them, do they? I also don't see how prestige would decay if not spent.

And wow, this topic is advancing quicker than I can collect my thoughts and write them down :P

- Dahakra

[Eisenwolff]

So money does not exist i can live with that. All the time credits or something similar is mentioned its used to trade with people outside the Federation. In my book thats called currency not money

[DanSeale]

Folks, first..this is a GAME based on a work of fiction, not real life so lets just get that straightened out before we start getting our Vulcan ears and Klingon ridges all bent out of shape.



right ON dude ! Couldn't agree more !

[Repeat]

So money does not exist i can live with that. All the time credits or something similar is mentioned its used to trade with people outside the Federation. In my book thats called currency not moneycurrency is money or the circulation of money by any definition I have ever heard

[Korrific]

I don't know how currency will decay myself, or a necessity to do so. I meant these coins in my pocket don't decay if I don't spend them, do they?
Inflation. The coins in your pocket today can buy a lot less than they could 20 years ago :p

But, yeah, I'm also having trouble imagining how money would decay in-game...

I also don't see how prestige would decay if not spent.
Although BreachAndClear originally stated that prestige wouldn't decay, I can see how it might. If a Starfleet officer who's been given a ship does nothing but sit around a starbase, I'm guessing his commission would be revoked eventually.

Regardless, I also think prestige should not decay. Although if a mission confronted you with a choice that might not go over well with Starfleet...

[Beef]

Prestige, latinum, credits... they should all be convertible amongst themselves, with an active currency system. One day latinum should be worth and the other day less... just like stock.

This would allow the sneaky economists to take a crack at the system making a living on the exchangeables at the risk of failing and losing everything. As for prestige, if it is going to be used as starfleet currency then it should increase slowly and not decay. More like a salary system.:D

[BreachAndClear]

I don't know how currency will decay myself, or a necessity to do so. I meant these coins in my pocket don't decay if I don't spend them, do they? I also don't see how prestige would decay if not spent.

And wow, this topic is advancing quicker than I can collect my thoughts and write them down :P

- Dahakra

The idea of decaying money was just an idea. There would be other ways of solving the issue. The issue I was trying to address was how to give players incentives to purchase player crafted goods at all "levels" or points in skill progression, and not just late game. I'm not necessarily partial to the idea of decaying money if the problem is addressed in some other way.

[Jetaime]

with in starfleet you will probably use "credits" as a form of money and will then have to go to a fernengi to exchange that out for gold press latinum.

[Dahakra]

Inflation. The coins in your pocket today can buy a lot less than they could 20 years ago :p

Too true my friend, too true. But to continue your analogy somewhat :P. Inflation is a function of market forces. The comparative "value" of the coins in my pocket may change, or good or ill, but the coins themselves don't. And to include "inflation" in STO would require a very dynamic economic system overall. But meh, I'm reading too much into your point :P


Although BreachAndClear originally stated that prestige wouldn't decay, I can see how it might. If a Starfleet officer who's been given a ship does nothing but sit around a starbase, I'm guessing his commission would be revoked eventually.


Perhaps his commission would be revoked if here where being a lazy bugger lolz. But consider that The Defiant was stationed at DS9 and spent much of its time inactive. I know many here will be wanting to build their own space station in STO, and thankful that seems to be an option, so lets say I did that. I spend, say, 75% of my time aboard my Starbase, perhaps crafting, researching new tech, trading, lounging around in my many holodecks or enjoying the er "services" of my Orion slave girls :D. I wouldn't expect to get demoted because I spent more time station side than ship side.


Prestige, latinum, credits... they should all be convertible amongst themselves, with an active currency system. One day latinum should be worth and the other day less... just like stock.

This would allow the sneaky economists to take a crack at the system making a living on the exchangeables at the risk of failing and losing everything. As for prestige, if it is going to be used as starfleet currency then it should increase slowly and not decay. More like a salary system.:D

Latium and Credits yes. But IMO, Prestige, no. Though I concur with your sentiment, a dynamic exchange rate would be cool. How to achieve that and make it feel realistic would be another matter :P.

The idea of decaying money was just an idea. There would be other ways of solving the issue. The issue I was trying to address was how to give players incentives to purchase player crafted goods at all levels, and not just late game. I'm not necessarily partial to the idea of decaying money if the problem is addressed in some other way.

Ah yea, I understand you threw it out there as a possible solution to the failure of other MMO's to keep things under control. However I'll say I think it was failure on Blizzards part less than the players themselves, just my opinion of course :)

- Dahakra

[naynayz]

so starfleet use's moeny? so picard save up his money for a galaxy class blueprints? and upgrades?

i hope this isnt the first step of the fall of STO... i really think STO wont turn out that great..

I dont think they are taking this where you are here. we will see though. And you better believe Starfleet uses latinum! How else could dax play tongo? LOL

[Silverspar]

Okay since the question eneds to be answered for anything outside of TOS, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs) is the answer. Start at roughly 6:43 and watch. Doesn't include it all, but it includes a lot,a nd I am sure Star Trek Mistakes 2/5 and 3/5 include more.

[LordDave]

Why not?

I suppose there's no real reason. But how would you get another ship if you really didn't like the one you picked?



A spare? Ship captains in Star Trek have spares? Are you sure we're talking about the same game here?

Yep. We can keep all of our ships. It was in one of the ask Cryptics I think.

[Nasedo]

I dont think they are taking this where you are here. we will see though. And you better believe Starfleet uses latinum! How else could dax play tongo? LOL

true.. but it just for fun as far as i see it
not like she use's latinum to upgrade the defaint or give out loans to Sisko...they just tell the chief to repair the ship

so many questions and hardly any answers

[Nasedo]

Okay since the question eneds to be answered for anything outside of TOS, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs) is the answer. Start at roughly 6:43 and watch. Doesn't include it all, but it includes a lot,a nd I am sure Star Trek Mistakes 2/5 and 3/5 include more.

true there is money.... but nog also said It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.

so how can we both be right? starfleet use's money? but doesnt? maybe they do use money for small things but not for buying big ships and weapons

[Silverspar]

true there is money.... but nog also said It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.

so how can we both be right? starfleet use's money? but doesnt? maybe they do use money for small things but not for buying big ships and weapons

It's the onconsistancy of Star Trek. A society can't exist without economics, especially when dealing with people and ideals outside of that society. It just isn't a reallistic possibility (but then again most things in Star Trek are unreallistic). That being said, the final result is that with more episodes saying there is money versus episodes that say there isn't, you find yourself staring at the reallistic fact that the Federation does have money and does have an economy, otherwise they would be unable to conduct trade to begin with.

The Replicator also is not infallible, before that argument is used, and materials created from the replicator are not 100% versus the same materials from the raw resource. It's one of the issues being talked aobut in the new A Singular Destiny novel.

[Voorhees]

credits is used for bartering among players and buying things for leisure. Things like star ships i am sure will be an earned thing.

[Manx]

true there is money.... but nog also said It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.

so how can we both be right? starfleet use's money? but doesnt? maybe they do use money for small things but not for buying big ships and weapons

The key word there is 'species'. That was the same quote I referenced earlier; he makes no reference to Starfleet or the Federation, just the fact that Jake is human.

[Nasedo]

It's the onconsistancy of Star Trek. A society can't exist without economics, especially when dealing with people and ideals outside of that society. It just isn't a reallistic possibility (but then again most things in Star Trek are unreallistic). That being said, the final result is that with more episodes saying there is money versus episodes that say there isn't, you find yourself staring at the reallistic fact that the Federation does have money and does have an economy, otherwise they would be unable to conduct trade to begin with.

The Replicator also is not infallible, before that argument is used, and materials created from the replicator are not 100% versus the same materials from the raw resource. It's one of the issues being talked aobut in the new A Singular Destiny novel.

you are so right in everything and i agree

but if you seen all the episodes in TNG they have stated in some episodes that the enterprise does trade with other worlds... but we never see any credits being traded. but we do see picard tradeing somethings for protection for that Planet or transport to another planet or system...

most the time they use Diplomacy to grain what Starfleet needs.
like if one race is very knowledgeable in Warp core's or Tractor beams or whatever starfleets needs they would trade for transports to other ships or there protection or even just for friendship, then maybe one day starfleet would offer them federation membership

take the Bynars.. they upgraded the enterprise's and alot of other starship's computers they had to be friends or members of Starfleet

The key word there is 'species'. That was the same quote I referenced earlier; he makes no reference to Starfleet or the Federation, just the fact that Jake is human.
yea human's abandon money..
so if i pick a human m i force to earn money even tho human's abandon it?

[Dahakra]

yea human's abandon money..
so if i pick a human m i force to earn money even tho human's abandon it?

Would you consider the opposite fair? i.e. you as a Human get everything for free, because how can you pay if you've nothing to pay with, while players who choose say Trill for example, must pay for everything? Both are Fed but one pays while the other doesn't, based on they're species.

- Dahakra

[Nasedo]

Would you consider the opposite fair? i.e. you as a Human get everything for free, because how can you pay if you've nothing to pay with, while players who choose say Trill for example, must pay for everything? Both are Fed but one pays while the other doesn't, based on they're species.

- Dahakra

true... but human's abandon money so does that mean i get to work to better are selfs on Earth alone? i could see paying for something on another planet..

[Paulo999]

lol can we just drop this? were going to be using money whether we like it or not

[Nasedo]

lol can we just drop this? were going to be using money whether we like it or not

or CBS could pull Star Trek License because it doesnt live up to the IP.. it has happen be for, Cryptic said it wont be just another MMO. it would be and feel like Startrek (something like that) how can it be like Star Trek if some things are not right...makeing a Game with this kind of IP is very Dangerous.. what if they plan on making a DS9 movie? or Voyager movie? STO has alt the hole Star Trek universe

[DrJackWolfe]

We're going to be using money because the Federaton uses money. Calling it credits, and having senile old Roddenberry doesn't make economics go away. Effort and energy go into everything human made, and must be paid for. I'm not buying this "we've evolved crap." What they have done is figure out a way to not leave people behind...even those who just want to sit in there flat and play MMOs all day.

[Bamf]

or CBS could pull Star Trek License because it doesnt live up to the IP.. it has happen be for, Cryptic said it wont be just another MMO. it would be and feel like Startrek (something like that) how can it be like Star Trek if some things are not right...makeing a Game with this kind of IP is very Dangerous.. what if they plan on making a DS9 movie? or Voyager movie? STO has alt the hole Star Trek universe

Because TREK USES CREDITS

Holly &(*^)(*&. im sorry, but some people REALLY need to learn a little more about trek.

There have been several episodes where Federation, yes FEDERATION, has handled latinum. And EVEN MORE where they have handled credits. And when creating a game which requires an economy, we are forced to elaborate on the established currency system of star trek, which unfortunately isn't so apparent.

I'm sorry some people have a hard time realizing that. Be rational.

[Nasedo]

We're going to be using money because the Federaton uses money. Calling it credits, and having senile old Roddenberry doesn't make economics go away. Effort and energy go into everything human made, and must be paid for. I'm not buying this "we've evolved crap." What they have done is figure out a way to not leave people behind...even those who just want to sit in there flat and play MMOs all day.

you know what words you shouldnt have used on a Star Trek site?

"we've evolved crap."

i cant tell you how many times people on Star Trek said they have evolved pass greed and money and credits

the facts is thats how the writers made the story. evolved human's liveing

they do have a economy but its very different then what we use in the world now yea they trade they have a working economy but its the currency they use.. they trade with technology. Protection. treaty's membership. aid from friends to better them selfs and all of federation thats there economy

yea they have money and gold and credits but its not the soul purpose of the Federation to get gold and credits , its not that important then how we have it.. its greed and money that destroyeds are world now
and thats what Star Trek is all about

i dont want to repost so im editing this to a reply

Because TREK USES CREDITS

Holly &(*^)(*&. im sorry, but some people REALLY need to learn a little more about trek.

There have been several episodes where Federation, yes FEDERATION, has handled latinum. And EVEN MORE where they have handled credits. And when creating a game which requires an economy, we are forced to elaborate on the established currency system of star trek, which unfortunately isn't so apparent.

I'm sorry some people have a hard time realizing that. Be rational.

please scroll up and read what i posted please.. i know alot of star trek..

[Lizzio]

*Dreams*

A world without money..
3 o noo wait 10000's maybachs..
20 villa's uhmm.. take over Cryptic studio.. Wonderfull dream

[DrJackWolfe]

you know what words you shouldnt have used on a Star Trek site?



i cant tell you how many times people on Star Trek said they have evolved pass greed and money and credits

the facts is thats how the writers made the story. evolved human's liveing

they do have a economy but its very different then what we use in the world now yea they trade they have a working economy but its the currency they use.. they trade with technology. Protection. treaty's membership. aid from friends to better them selfs and all of federation thats there economy

yea they have money and gold and credits but its not the soul purpose of the Federation to get gold and credits , its not that important then how we have it.. its greed and money that destroyeds are world now
and thats what Star Trek is all about

i dont want to repost so im editing this to a reply



please scroll up and read what i posted please.. i know alot of star trek..


We've evolved crap is crap. Said it again, and I'll keep on saying it. The members of the federation can delude themselves into thinking that's the answer all they want. The truth is, they've developed a sufficiently high level of technology that it isn't typically an issue. They certainly haven't evolved past the base emotions that can cause resource scarcity to become a problem.

They still have prisons, they still have murder, they still have theft, they still fight war, they still love, hate, and act irrationally. The writers can have a character say "we've evolved past that" all they want, but these are the same writers that then go on to illustrate, in the characters actions, they haven't. These are also the same writers who had Uhura buy a tribble from a trader for 10 credits and Kirk talk about hundreds of thousands of credits in training cost. May not be a dollar, yen, ruble, or pound; but it represents money.

Your need to not call basic trade unit money is semantics, or are you ok with the workd currency but not money? Call what ever makes you happy, it's still a form of money.

I find these words more disturbing from a Star Trek fan then any issue with basic trade exchange units or the color of the warp core in the screen shot.

You know what words you shouldnt have used on a Star Trek site?


Yep IDIC at work right there.

[Nasedo]

*Dreams*

A world without money..
3 o noo wait 10000's maybachs..
20 villa's uhmm.. take over Cryptic studio.. Wonderfull dream

its a better world then what we live in now..

dont get me wrong. in Star Trek money credits whatever they use. is a huge things for some races but its
not that important to human's then compare to the human's of today we are more like Ferengi ..and some of the federation. like nog. since he joined StarFleet he's just not as greedy as he use to be. but still greedy

We've evolved crap is crap. Said it again, and I'll keep on saying it. The members of the federation can delude themselves into thinking that's the answer all they want. The truth is, they've developed a sufficiently high level of technology that it isn't typically an issue. They certainly haven't evolved past the base emotions that can cause resource scarcity to become a problem.

They still have prisons, they still have murder, they still have theft, they still fight war, they still love, hate, and act irrationally. The writers can have a character say "we've evolved past that" all they want, but these are the same writers that then go on to illustrate, in the characters actions, they haven't. These are also the same writers who had Uhura buy a tribble from a trader for 10 credits and Kirk talk about hundreds of thousands of credits in training cost. May not be a dollar, yen, ruble, or pound; but it represents money.

Your need to not call basic trade unit money is semantics, or are you ok with the workd currency but not money? Call what ever makes you happy, it's still a form of money.

I find these words more disturbing from a Star Trek fan then any issue with basic trade exchange units or the color of the warp core in the screen shot.

yea that did happen uhura did buy a tribble but that story was made back in the 60s... by writers that did TOS

but TOS doesnt Tie in very will with TNG DS9 and Voy
we got new Writers who made the Star Trek we know today and they didnt add (Credits are important in these's storys) you never seen Picard in TNG at all use Credits onboard his ship ever or even begin to trade buy or use on his ship

everyone keeps saying. yea STO is going to have Credits and its going to be the most important thing in STO because TOS says so.. the small's detrails like uhura buying a tribble with credits and you think its all about money
yes there is money/credits/gold in TNG/DS9/VOY but its not the big of a deal it plays a very very small role for the Federation in Startrek

[Lizzio]

How can you know what is important to humans or members of the Federation..
I mean each person is difrent and dont forget the Federation isnt Starfleet Alone..
Also i think you are confusing yourself with all humans being a trained Officer or something

1Little thingy..

Never forget that humans are greedy now and over 100/2000 years ''If they still exist''
You cant say the Humans in Startrek arent greedy remember the episode where
Voyager met a other ship in the Delta Quadrant and it took Voyager's Warp-Core??..

[eNDIE]

They will have federation credits ingame just accept it.

[Lizzio]

Yeay just accept it!

[Nasedo]

They will have federation credits ingame just accept it.

all im saying is if Cryptic Studios doesnt follow the IP of Star Trek to the letter they would lose the Star Trek license ..

CBS would pull it like they did with paramount

[Azurian]

Hey guys, why not have it like this:

Prestige Pool: Which is your basic Experience Pool that when you get to a certain number, it unlocks new equipment, ships, and missions. (Not Expendable).

Skill Pool: Like in some other MMORPGs, it's seperate from the experience pool and increases with capabilities. (But can exchanged for other skills like in SWG).

And when it comes to money, players have two bank accounts:

Federation Credits: Currency within the Federation and certain other sytems, factions, and organizations.

Latinum: Currency used outside the Federation.

When players are at a Federation Starbases or Planets, you can exchange Federation Credits for Latinum, and Latinum for Federation Credits.

And while I'm at it, there is even a potential third type of currency:

Trade / Exchange: For systems that don't use Latinum nor Federation Credits. (After all, Voyager didn't have access to Latinum nor Federation Currents while in the Delta Quadrant and survived by trading equipment, mined minerals, and information for currency in some systems).

[Nasedo]

Hey guys, why not have it like this:

Prestige Pool: Which is your basic Experience Pool that when you get to a certain number, it unlocks new equipment, ships, and missions. (Not Expendable).

Skill Pool: Like in some other MMORPGs, it's seperate from the experience pool and increases with capabilities. (But can exchanged for other skills like in SWG).

And when it comes to money, players have two bank accounts:

Federation Credits: Currency within the Federation and certain other sytems, factions, and organizations.

Latinum: Currency used outside the Federation.

When players are at a Federation Starbases or Planets, you can exchange Federation Credits for Latinum, and Latinum for Federation Credits.

And while I'm at it, there is even a potential third type of currency:

Trade / Exchange: For systems that don't use Latinum nor Federation Credits. (After all, Voyager didn't have access to Latinum nor Federation Currents while in the Delta Quadrant and survived by trading equipment, mined minerals, and information for currency in some systems).

sounds find to me i dont mind
i just want to state from my 2 cents... and this comes from me alone how i want this game to turn out
i dont want it like Wow and its gold and gold farmers. and SWG and EQ and AO and COH

I think the days of harshly punishing over credits and gold are over. Games are supposed to be fun

but thats just me and what i think. people like geting gold and credits and people dont and im one of them

[Azurian]

Oh I agree, I don't want gold farmers as well. Greed is a major factor that kills MMORPGs.

However, there isn't an effective way of going around such things unless players do it all themselves, which doesn't help build friendships and associations. And Latinum has to be in STO for the emersion factor, after all the Klingon Empire still runs on money.

[Nasedo]

Oh I agree, I don't want gold farmers as well. Greed is a major factor that kills MMORPGs.

However, there isn't an effective way of going around such things unless players do it all themselves, which doesn't help build friendships and associations. And Latinum has to be in STO for the emersion factor, after all the Klingon Empire still runs on money.

everything you said has a good point..i just want it to be star trek thats all

[Varrangian]

everything you said has a good point..i just want it to be star trek thats all

No you want it to be your version of Star Trek. Which is really what most people here want. But even within Trek, heck even within Trek while Roddenberry was running things there was no consistent "Trek" Things changed over time some ideas came and went because in the end Trek is a business. Roddenberry would not have made Trek if it didn't pay the bills.

I'm really, really frustrated by your constant "CBS will pull the plug" because you seem to think that Cryptic has not run the game by CBS and it has not already been approved. I'm sorry, but a game doesn't get this far in development without the development company knowing they have the ability to make the game they want.

If this game gets the plug pulled it won't be because of not having the right "Trekness" it will be for economic reasons.

[Angelphoenix12]

or CBS could pull Star Trek License because it doesnt live up to the IP.. it has happen be for, Cryptic said it wont be just another MMO. it would be and feel like Startrek (something like that) how can it be like Star Trek if some things are not right...makeing a Game with this kind of IP is very Dangerous.. what if they plan on making a DS9 movie? or Voyager movie? STO has alt the hole Star Trek universe

Im not going to harp on you like some others, but i must ask why are you so suprised about star fleet having money? it was no suprise that everyone would have to earn/get money from the anouncement they said there would be a player economy. when they said that i knew we were going to have money.
other people have giving great parts in st where money is still being used.

then you said twise that cbs could pull the license. to me it seems as if you are hoping that they do.

im not flaming you just trying to understand how you could go from excited to seem to want this game pulled.

[LordDave]

yea that did happen uhura did buy a tribble but that story was made back in the 60s... by writers that did TOS

but TOS doesnt Tie in very will with TNG DS9 and Voy
we got new Writers who made the Star Trek we know today and they didnt add (Credits are important in these's storys) you never seen Picard in TNG at all use Credits onboard his ship ever or even begin to trade buy or use on his ship

everyone keeps saying. yea STO is going to have Credits and its going to be the most important thing in STO because TOS says so.. the small's detrails like uhura buying a tribble with credits and you think its all about money
yes there is money/credits/gold in TNG/DS9/VOY but its not the big of a deal it plays a very very small role for the Federation in Startrek

What about in TNG, episode 1 where Beverly buys some kind of cloth?
Or the drinks at Quarks.
Ok, Voy didn't have an issue, but they did use internal replicator ration trading or Holodeck time trading between crew members. Though having Voyager outside of the Federation for the whole series kinda puts a kink in that.

Fact of the matter is, as others have said, Federation credits do exist. How they're used or accumulated is unknown. How the economy, government, or other non-military things work in Star Trek is unknown. The universe was not completely built, only Starfleet. And even that has inconsistencies.

[Nasedo]

Im not going to harp on you like some others, but i must ask why are you so suprised about star fleet having money? it was no suprise that everyone would have to earn/get money from the anouncement they said there would be a player economy. when they said that i knew we were going to have money.
other people have giving great parts in st where money is still being used.

then you said twise that cbs could pull the license. to me it seems as if you are hoping that they do.

im not flaming you just trying to understand how you could go from excited to seem to want this game pulled.

im not going to start flaming to you or any one but. as we speak i Started watching Every single Star Trek episode (again) from Enterprise to TOS to TNG DS9 and Voy im almost on season 6 of DS9 and up to now starfleet rarely trade's or buys items with credit's or whatever they use, im sick of Wow and gold farmers and selling gold and spamers

and since Federation doesnt use or we rarely hear about them useing Credits it wont be that bad if StarFleet doesnt use Credit's

everyone else like klingons romluans or even the cardassian should use it still

i just want a Completely different game from Wow /Eq/COH/LOTR and so on something fun and maybe something to help everyone out there believe Money isnt end all be all.. people in real life die over money greed over money make life not that great. i believe in working to better are selfs.. and this could help us start looking that way in the future. we do this we could find cure's for cancer and save people from dieing making are planet a paradise... no war ever. no more fighting . no more killing

What about in TNG, episode 1 where Beverly buys some kind of cloth?
Or the drinks at Quarks.
Ok, Voy didn't have an issue, but they did use internal replicator ration trading or Holodeck time trading between crew members. Though having Voyager outside of the Federation for the whole series kinda puts a kink in that.
again i said this be for. im not saying Credits or money is 100% gone in Star Trek. im saying its not that important.. almost like air . we rarely know we breath it. but it still there and we still do it but we done find ways to get more of it and make are air clean its just there

[Silverspar]

all im saying is if Cryptic Studios doesnt follow the IP of Star Trek to the letter they would lose the Star Trek license ..

CBS would pull it like they did with paramount

CBS didn't pull anything from Paramount, as the new movie is made by Paramount and Paramount is negotiating a deal with Abrams and company to come back for a sequel already. The problem here is perception, the only time a Star Trek liscense get's pulled is because there isn't a profit being made. It's never a matter of mis-managing the liscense.

Now, if you mean perpetual had the liscense pulled, that's because Perpetual was floundering, and had little to nothing to show Paramount, which Paraamount expects results in a timely manner, and impressive results at that.

[Bamf]

you know what words you shouldnt have used on a Star Trek site?



i cant tell you how many times people on Star Trek said they have evolved pass greed and money and credits

the facts is thats how the writers made the story. evolved human's liveing

they do have a economy but its very different then what we use in the world now yea they trade they have a working economy but its the currency they use.. they trade with technology. Protection. treaty's membership. aid from friends to better them selfs and all of federation thats there economy

yea they have money and gold and credits but its not the soul purpose of the Federation to get gold and credits , its not that important then how we have it.. its greed and money that destroyeds are world now
and thats what Star Trek is all about

i dont want to repost so im editing this to a reply



please scroll up and read what i posted please.. i know alot of star trek..

The evolution is not that they do not use currency at all. It is that they do not WORK for currency. They work do better themselves. Federation officers work to improve their status and keep the galaxy safe. Because they do, they are allowed a certain number of usable credits for purchasing.

[Nasedo]

The evolution is not that they do not use currency at all. It is that they do not WORK for currency. They work do better themselves. Federation officers work to improve their status and keep the galaxy safe. Because they do, they are allowed a certain number of usable credits for purchasing.

i tip my hat to you my good sir... its there but its not that important . yea we have it but its something we get and use to get by. because some race's and worlds still use it

the thing thats on my mind is. we are going to have to use credits to buy Star Ships. thats over doing it a little bit... we will have to run missions/quest like in Wow to get what we need to buy something

[Urantia]

I just cannot wait to be one of the first Starfleet Captains ever to make aquisition of wealth my priority :(. I am one that was never under any illusions as to the direction of this game (generic MMO with a Trek Skin)...nor were many more.

I think what concerns people is not that there will be a form of currency for the Federation (as it would be too alien and "unfun" for the masses otherwise)....I think what concerns many is since there will be a currency we will have people striving to be rich...even when it runs counter to what has been seen of Starfleet officers (not the Federation in general).

So let the great race of wealth, greed, politics, drama and general corruption begin. Should be interesting to be a broke Starfleet graduate...that while in service finds a way to become a billionaire. Hope I can find a place to store all that latinum...and pray my crew does not mind...my not being and officer and a gentleman. Oh well screw them fools....they will do what I say or I will execute them and launch their corpses out the nearest launcher....this is normal behavior for a captain right?

[Silverspar]

Trading for goods and such is ALWAYS going to matter. Whether it uses money or uses items to trade, either way it's economics and you can't get past it no matter what you do. You need fuel and power to make the replicator work. You needresources for that farm. You need a lot of things for a lot of different things. All paper money is, is a promise that this piece of paper is equal value of the item it represents. Bank notes (aka dollars, pounds, ect) are suppose to represent an equal value in gold in todays economy. The Federation Credit is suppose to represent an equal value of whatever resource is valuable in the galactic economy, and whatever that is from dilithium to latinum it tends to change from species to species.

There is no way you are going to be able to say it's gone. Just because you are trying to better yourself doesn't remove the fact you still have an econmy and still need an item worth trading.

[Silverspar]

I just cannot wait to be one of the first Starfleet Captains ever to make aquisition of wealth my priority :(. I am one that was never under any illusions as to the direction of this game (generic MMO with a Trek Skin)...nor were many more.

I think what concerns people is not that there will be a form of currency for the Federation (as it would be too alien and "unfun" for the masses otherwise)....I think what concerns many is since there will be a currency we will have people striving to be rich...even when it runs counter to what has been seen of Starfleet officers (not the Federation in general).

So let the great race of wealth, greed, politics, drama and general corruption begin. Should be interesting to be a broke Starfleet graduate...that while in service finds a way to become a billionaire. Hope I can find a place to store all that latinum...and pray my crew does not mind...my not being and officer and a gentleman. Oh well screw them fools....they will do what I say or I will execute them and launch their corpses out the nearest launcher....this is normal behavior for a captain right?

Corruption in Starfleet has always been there. Saying Starfleet and the Federation is infallible is a pipedream at best. In fact many episodes of Star Trek cover this very issue, including two seperate movies on the subject; Star Trek VI and Star Trek Insurrection.

Furthermore like it or not they are making a game, not a simulator. They want to create a fun experience for everyone, not the handful of hard up nerds who believe that taking real time to travel from one planet to the next will be exciting, or watching the dilithium intermix ratios while at warp is somehow going to be exciting. This is being made for people who don't have a lot of time for games, but would like time to relax. The average gamer doesn't have but a couple of hours a day to be able to play games, and some have even less than that.

[Varrangian]

i just want a Completely different game from Wow /Eq/COH/LOTR and so on something fun and maybe something to help everyone out there believe Money isnt end all be all.. people in real life die over money greed over money make life not that great. i believe in working to better are selfs.. and this could help us start looking that way in the future. we do this we could find cure's for cancer and save people from dieing making are planet a paradise... no war ever. no more fighting . no more killing

Please go read We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, there is no paradise. We can work to a better life but it must be a life where people have choice not one where "paradise" is forced on people. That is a totalitarian paradise and as long as you agree with those in charge it is great, but if you don't it is no paradise at all.

Greed exists regardless of money, there will always be those who want more than their share or than they need. Money is just one area where greed takes shape, it is not the only place greed can be intangible as well.

You say you believe in working to better ourselves but that is an individual process. I can't decide for you what is "better" just as you should not decide for me. For many people money is a motivation to better themselves. Money can provide good in the world too look at people like Bill Gates or Bono you may not agree with how they earned or spend their money but they clearly choose to give back to the world.

We will never "save people from dying". I say this as someone whose father has been diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. As much as I love my father, I know that some day something, even if it is not cancer, will kill him. Death is natural and while it can be tragic at times it is part of life that denying would only make matter worse.

[Nasedo]

Trading for goods and such is ALWAYS going to matter. Whether it uses money or uses items to trade, either way it's economics and you can't get past it no matter what you do. You need fuel and power to make the replicator work. You needresources for that farm. You need a lot of things for a lot of different things. All paper money is, is a promise that this piece of paper is equal value of the item it represents. Bank notes (aka dollars, pounds, ect) are suppose to represent an equal value in gold in todays economy. The Federation Credit is suppose to represent an equal value of whatever resource is valuable in the galactic economy, and whatever that is from dilithium to latinum it tends to change from species to species.

There is no way you are going to be able to say it's gone. Just because you are trying to better yourself doesn't remove the fact you still have an econmy and still need an item worth trading.

im not saying its gone im saying its not that important...we keep it low we wont have gold farmers
and you fuel and power replicators it comes from the Warp core and the warp core feeds offf of dilithium crystals

Please go read We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, there is no paradise. We can work to a better life but it must be a life where people have choice not one where "paradise" is forced on people. That is a totalitarian paradise and as long as you agree with those in charge it is great, but if you don't it is no paradise at all.

Greed exists regardless of money, there will always be those who want more than their share or than they need. Money is just one area where greed takes shape, it is not the only place greed can be intangible as well.

You say you believe in working to better ourselves but that is an individual process. I can't decide for you what is "better" just as you should not decide for me. For many people money is a motivation to better themselves. Money can provide good in the world too look at people like Bill Gates or Bono you may not agree with how they earned or spend their money but they clearly choose to give back to the world.

We will never "save people from dying". I say this as someone whose father has been diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. As much as I love my father, I know that some day something, even if it is not cancer, will kill him. Death is natural and while it can be tragic at times it is part of life that denying would only make matter worse.

sorry about your father...

greed could be a powerful tool for us.. but money isnt. it makes people go out and work to stay alive. or steal it and in the same time people get hurt or killed we shouldnt be like that we should work to make a life for us and are childen

[Angelphoenix12]

just want a Completely different game from Wow /Eq/COH/LOTR and so on something fun and maybe something to help everyone out there believe Money isnt end all be all.. people in real life die over money greed over money make life not that great. i believe in working to better are selfs.. and this could help us start looking that way in the future. we do this we could find cure's for cancer and save people from dieing making are planet a paradise... no war ever. no more fighting . no more killing


again i said this be for. im not saying Credits or money is 100% gone in Star Trek. im saying its not that important.. almost like air . we rarely know we breath it. but it still there and we still do it but we done find ways to get more of it and make are air clean its just there

i agree with you on the greed of many players in city of. nor i want to play a game like that again, but i know its going to happen even if we dont want it. :( i also respect your opion. :)

[Paulo999]

all im saying is if Cryptic Studios doesnt follow the IP of Star Trek to the letter they would lose the Star Trek license ..

CBS would pull it like they did with paramount

federation credits are cannon lol. so i doubt paramount will intervene

[Silverspar]

im not saying its gone im saying its not that important...we keep it low we wont have gold farmers
and you fuel and power replicators it comes from the Warp core and the warp core feeds offf of dilithium crystals

You are not going to get rid of gold farmers. Your gesture might be noble, but doomed to failure. If gold or money is not the item, then they will farm something else, like dilithium or latinum or whatever the valuable resource for creation of anything might be in the game. The farmers will find something to farm, believing you are going to remove farmers because you remove a staple, easy medium to trade is, without a better word to use, foolish as the farmers won't care if there is gold or if they have to store up silos of preciuous metals. They will still farm and they will still spam. The only way you are going to stop farmers is to remove everything worth collecting from said game, and in turn make the game absolutely boring.

[Azurian]

Why don't people stop for a moment and look back. Everyone is so concerned with the Federation having money that you all are forgetting about other factions like the Klingon Empire, who very much still uses currency.

everything you said has a good point..i just want it to be star trek thats all

I do as well. As close as Star Trek as possible, and still able to handle the farmers and the griefers.

[Silverspar]

Also, to counter your other point that humans only desire to better themselves, again, provably wrong as every episode of Star Trek shows that humans desire material goods still, even in the 24th century. Removing a simple bartering method in an attempt to make barter more complicated does not remove the evil you want to avoid.

[Nasedo]

to everyone out there. i dont want to be the bad guy. i know people think i have been trolling or flameing or whatever you guys call it..

i just want a better world for my new born son

i want to apologize to everyone out there,

[Varrangian]

to everyone out there. i dont want to be the bad guy. i know people think i have been trolling or flameing or whatever you guys call it..

i just want a better world for my new born son

i want to apologize to everyone out there,

I certainly do not think you need to apologize for anything. We disagree and we are all passionate about our points of view, but no one should feel they need to apologize.

I've always felt the definition of a good father is one that wants to leave a better world for their child. That is a very noble thing.

[G0zer]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

[Angelphoenix12]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

ty for the clarifaction on this subject. i think your explaintion was needed. :)

[TruthSeer]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

Which is why I think prestige is a better word to use.

[doam]

Which is why I think prestige is a better word to use.

But since "credit" was used in the shows, and "prestige" wasn't, "credit" wins. It's best to stick with canon, and common sense, when possible.

[Repeat]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

but those "credits" or "privileges" althought they may not be a physical medium of exchange a la coins or paper bills could still be considered money as they would be used as the measure of the value of various goods and services

[Jetaime]

when you get to the nitty gritty, the game would be no fun if you got everything you wanted with out having to earn it, so of course your going to have pay to add a new layer to the game play

[Varrangian]

when you get to the nitty gritty, the game would be no fun if you got everything you wanted with out having to earn it, so of course your going to have pay to add a new layer to the game play

The thing that gets me is that clearly Kirk, Picard, et alia... had to earn their positions. All this "credit" system is doing is quantifying it so that we don't have to guess when our next chance to advance are.

Ex... Picard does X and gets the attention of Starfleet command, the next time a cool new piece of test-tech is available they are going to remember Picard and consider letting him test it out.

All this system does is let us know when we get those opportunities because, let's face it - this is a game and people don't like to guess in games like they have to in real life.

[Dahakra]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

Sorry but I think that makes things a little more ambiguous (atleast for me).
Guess I'll just have to wait until I'm playing STO to find out if I'll be trading my personal honor, a.k.a prestige, for a new disruptor cannon :(

- Dahakra

[Nasedo]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

woot dev posted thanks for the post..

im not flameing your idea or trolling or anything like that at all

if you could. could you explain how" transporter credits and replicator credits" ack as credit you earn?
i thought in other to use a transporter or a replicator you need power or energy to use them and you get that from the warp core.and what powers the warp core is dilithium crystals....if you could explain that, it would be very lightin for us
and on the side note. credits? i dont want to be mean or anything but for new people who never played STO they may take that as money.. have you guys talked about changeing the name of it to Prestige or something more star trekie?

[Varrangian]

woot dev posted thanks for the post..

im not flameing your idea or trolling or anything like that at all

if you could. could you explain how" transporter credits and replicator credits" ack as credit you earn?
i thought in other to use a transporter or a replicator you need power or energy to use them and you get that from the warp core.and what powers the warp core is dilithium crystals....if you could explain that, it would be very lightin for us
and on the side note. credits? i dont want to be mean or anything but for new people who never played STO they may take that as money.. have you guys talked about changeing the name of it to Prestige or something more star trekie?

Well I will jump in here with a little information. The warp core is not powered by dilithium crystals (I made the same mistake a while back). The warp core is a matter/anti-matter reaction, the dilithium crystals work to regulate the reaction. One of the things about dilithium that convinces me there is still some form of economy within the Federation is the fact that dilithium (and likely other materials) are things that are in limited quantity aka scarce resources. If there is scarcity there will always be an economy of some kind.

Now it is true that warp cores can produce vast amounts of energy and at least on some scale that energy can be used to create/replicate matter... the issue is that if there is a finite amount of dilithium (even if very little is used in the matter/anti-matter reaction) power is at a premium.

Now obviously I cannot speak for STO, but I read not this...

ven within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits. You can’t simply decide one day that you want a starship and then get one, you have to have enough credits for that.

Not in the sense that each time we want to use the transporter or replicator on our ship we'll need to use credits, but that each use of these items drains from the overall resources (even if at a fraction) therefore you need to conceptualize it as money, yes money, being spent. Now to take this a step further you cannot expect the Federation to just give you a ship if you haven't "earned" it.

Even if we do end up having to spend "credits" each time we use the transporter or replicator aside from the name I would imagine this would make all those who want a ship "simulator" very happy, it would really be a representation of keeping track of ship resources.

[Nasedo]

Well I will jump in here with a little information. The warp core is not powered by dilithium crystals (I made the same mistake a while back). The warp core is a matter/anti-matter reaction, the dilithium crystals work to regulate the reaction. One of the things about dilithium that convinces me there is still some form of economy within the Federation is the fact that dilithium (and likely other materials) are things that are in limited quantity aka scarce resources. If there is scarcity there will always be an economy of some kind.

Now it is true that warp cores can produce vast amounts of energy and at least on some scale that energy can be used to create/replicate matter... the issue is that if there is a finite amount of dilithium (even if very little is used in the matter/anti-matter reaction) power is at a premium.

Now obviously I cannot speak for STO, but I read not this...



Not in the sense that each time we want to use the transporter or replicator on our ship we'll need to use credits, but that each use of these items drains from the overall resources (even if at a fraction) therefore you need to conceptualize it as money, yes money, being spent. Now to take this a step further you cannot expect the Federation to just give you a ship if you haven't "earned" it.

Even if we do end up having to spend "credits" each time we use the transporter or replicator aside from the name I would imagine this would make all those who want a ship "simulator" very happy, it would really be a representation of keeping track of ship resources.


nicely said. thanks for answering it my friend

but the name credits? maybe a new name. what did they call it on voyager when they had to save up in order to use the Repllicator?

[Paulo999]

nicely said. thanks for answering it my friend

but the name credits? maybe a new name. what did they call it on voyager when they had to save up in order to use the Repllicator?

replicator rassions

[Arachnidus]

replicator rassions

I'm pretty sure replicator rations were only used on Voyager and other ships in distress. They're rations.

[RealRom]

when you get to the nitty gritty, the game would be no fun if you got everything you wanted without having to earn it, so of course your going to have pay to add a new layer to the game play

Quite true. When the folks over at Sony "Kiddy-fied" SWG by taking away the incentives and work needed for advancement, there was a mass exodus from it which totally destroyed a great community. Merchants had their places, as combatants did, and all benefitted from the skills of others....but not any more.

My hopes are for a merchant-driven economy- not one of "monty-haul loot drops". Such handouts not only cheapen the experience for everyone, it makes it monotonous. Creating and selling the most prestigious items in game (from anything like weapons to food to starships and their components) would not only cater to the ""Ferengi" in alot of us (LOL) but would help control the value of goods through supply/demand.

I am hoping that Cryptic puts some good thought into the STO crafting engine, and the economy that will obviously develop in-game.

[ktanner3]

so starfleet use's moeny? so picard save up his money for a galaxy class blueprints? and upgrades?

i hope this isnt the first step of the fall of STO... i really think STO wont turn out that great..

You need to re-read what you wrote and go watch some episodes of TNG and DS9. Then get back to us.

The federation,it's socialist ideals and it's economy do NOT control the galaxy. The DEVS are 100 percent right in saying that the rest of the galaxy is using gold pressed latinum. What do you think Riker gambled with at Quarks? What were the cardassians and bajorans using when they played dabo?How did dr.crusher "charge" an outfit to her account when she was visiting the bandi?

[Loekii]

Which is why I think prestige is a better word to use.

I agree. I think it accomplishes more of what I believe they are intending to convey in their statement.

If I understand Cryptic correctly, it sounds as if 'Star Fleet Credits' are infact less a currency, and more a 'merit' system (which cannot be brokered between players).

[Nasedo]

You need to re-read what you wrote and go watch some episodes of TNG and DS9. Then get back to us.

The federation,it's socialist ideals and it's economy do NOT control the galaxy. The DEVS are 100 percent right in saying that the rest of the galaxy is using gold pressed latinum. What do you think Riker gambled with at Quarks? What were the cardassians and bajorans using when they played dabo?How did dr.crusher "charge" an outfit to her account when she was visiting the bandi?

question already answered

[Urantia]

Corruption in Starfleet has always been there. Saying Starfleet and the Federation is infallible is a pipedream at best. In fact many episodes of Star Trek cover this very issue, including two seperate movies on the subject; Star Trek VI and Star Trek Insurrection.

Furthermore like it or not they are making a game, not a simulator. They want to create a fun experience for everyone, not the handful of hard up nerds who believe that taking real time to travel from one planet to the next will be exciting, or watching the dilithium intermix ratios while at warp is somehow going to be exciting. This is being made for people who don't have a lot of time for games, but would like time to relax. The average gamer doesn't have but a couple of hours a day to be able to play games, and some have even less than that.

No duh Silverspar...I never claimed the Federation and/or humans were perfect, but to argue that they represent the entire ideal of the Federation and Starfleet is absurd and you know it. I am not arguing against money as regardless of what I desire I know (and always did know) that this game would have elements in it that are a pure reflection of the 21st century (or the time period in which the game would be made). Nor am I arguing for a simulator...so kindly stop putting words in my mouth....I say what I mean and mean what I say.

I always did love, however, how people like yourself use a small fraction of behavior to embody the whole. What you do not get is that no matter what currency they have people will not behave like the 25th century...they will behave like they do now and in reality. This disturbs some....and some (albeit futile) find discomfort in this. While I can only speak for myself, I am sure there are several that feel as I do on the subject. Moreover, some will argue for a system that severly curbs this 21st century behavior no matter how futile it may be.

Anyone with any ST understanding knows there was a form of an economy withing the Federation and Starfleet, but they were not the end all be all of progress like they are today.

And by the way the US dollar has not been on the gold standard since the early 70s....they are on a free float system...I will let you research this yourself. We in the US can blame Nixon for that. Therefore, the US dollar does not represent and equal value of gold (Nor do most other modern currencies if I recall...as they followed suit). Try and listen to what others are saying....instead of (per usual) jumping to conclusions.

Furthermore, understand I am not opposing you...I already know I will never see the system I desire, but am trying to maybe make you see others views...those that want a Federation based on the statistical max/accepted view of the lore...not one based on the few glitches we have seen.

[Varrangian]

No duh Silverspar...I never claimed the Federation and/or humans were perfect, but to argue that they represent the entire ideal of the Federation and Starfleet is absurd and you know it. I am not arguing against money as regardless of what I desire I know (and always did know) that this game would have elements in it that are a pure reflection of the 21st century (or the time period in which the game would be made). Nor am I arguing for a simulator...so kindly stop putting words in my mouth....I say what I mean and mean what I say.

I always did love, however, how people like yourself use a small fraction of behavior to embody the whole. What you do not get is that no matter what currency they have people will not behave like the 25th century...they will behave like they do now and in reality. This disturbs some....and some (albeit futile) find discomfort in this. While I can only speak for myself, I am sure there are several that feel as I do on the subject. Moreover, some will argue for a system that severly curbs this 21st century behavior no matter how futile it may be.

Anyone with any ST understanding knows there was a form of an economy withing the Federation and Starfleet, but they were not the end all be all of progress like they are today.

You seem to be referring to the 25th century and Trek as if it were not fiction. I'm not trying to be an arse here, but Trek is fiction. The 25th century is not here and we can't say how it "is in reality".

Trek has been one fictional representation of the future and it has continuously changed. For instance the the world was not devastated by the Eugenics wars in the mid-1990's. The fact that the fiction lived through this time it had "predicted" meant that certain things had to be viewed differently in order to appeal to audiences.

Who is to say that the reality of the 25th century will be "better" (a very relative term) than the 21st century?

Any Trek game, and for that matter to some extent anything Trek, has to make itself open to a wide audience, so much so that it can't try to recreate in total some fictional idea of the 25th century because each individual sees that future differently. There is no one Trek, even Roddenberry changed courses with Trek. So how can you suggest (or say others will suggest) enforcement of some fictitious 25th century behavior when even the creators of this fictional universe couldn't agree on it.

Why is peoples behavior in the 21st century so evil? That is should disturb or cause discomfort? This is something I do not understand. Are there "bad" people? Yes, but there are also amazing people. That has been the reality of the world since the time our ancestors climbed out of the trees (and probably long before that).

[TruthSeer]

I agree. I think it accomplishes more of what I believe they are intending to convey in their statement.

If I understand Cryptic correctly, it sounds as if 'Star Fleet Credits' are infact less a currency, and more a 'merit' system (which cannot be brokered between players).

Exactly what I'm both thinking and hoping. Which is why they are also putting latinum in the game, so they can have an economy.

So hopefully it'll go: credits (remember think prestige) = new ships and equipment ( hopefully like how the Starfleet Command games [or at least 3, only on I played] are set up) and latinum = the actual economy.

If this is the set up it will be interesting how they handle future faction. An example would be the ever hoped for "neutral" or freelance faction, this faction would probably not have much use for prestige since there is not formal government giving out the ships and equipment and therefore would rely more heavily if not exclusively on latinum.

[DJGietzen]

Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits. You can’t simply decide one day that you want a starship and then get one, you have to have enough credits for that.

I hope that does not make it into any final language. Transporter credits? Realy? I got the impresssion that if I wanted to transport my self to paris for the weekend I could just go do it. If I wanted a new whatever I could just replicate it. The only cost to either of those is energy and in the world of star trek there is a sense of limitless energy.

The only line that makes sense is you can't just give yourself a ship. In City of cryptic had two currencies going. A hero could trade on its reputation or influence to get things, or a super group could trade on its prestige. For larger vessels and better equipment I should have to trade on me and my crews reputation to get star fleet to give me these things, I should not be buying them with credits like we got paid. Sure if I want to buy or barter with latinum for some alien tek to install on the ship I should be able to do that too.

While its never made clear if the Klingons have given up money, I see no reason the same dual currency system can't be applied.

[Nasedo]

Exactly what I'm both thinking and hoping. Which is why they are also putting latinum in the game, so they can have an economy.

So hopefully it'll go: credits (remember think prestige) = new ships and equipment ( hopefully like how the Starfleet Command games [or at least 3, only on I played] are set up) and latinum = the actual economy.

If this is the set up it will be interesting how they handle future faction. An example would be the ever hoped for "neutral" or freelance faction, this faction would probably not have much use for prestige since there is not formal government giving out the ships and equipment and therefore would rely more heavily if not exclusively on latinum.

that sounds great.. really really great. i cant wait

[Loekii]

If this is the set up it will be interesting how they handle future faction. An example would be the ever hoped for "neutral" or freelance faction, this faction would probably not have much use for prestige since there is not formal government giving out the ships and equipment and therefore would rely more heavily if not exclusively on latinum.

I would assume that added factions would follow a parallel system -- even a 'neutral' faction -- in that they are operating like a Military, rather than a business. For example, Darth Vader did not 'buy' a new ship from a merchant, but rather would of had it built by the Empire Military ship yards. In BSG, the would not 'buy' a battlestar from a Merchant, but rather would have it bulit by the colonial Fleet and give command to an officer (rather than sell it). The Romulans would not go an buy a ship from a Merchant, but rather would build it in their ship yards and give the commission to an officer of the Fleet. None of these Militaries would 'sell' their ship on an Auction House.

So again, I see it mirroring Modern Military Navies, rather than Modern Automotive markets.

[Nasedo]

I would assume that added factions would follow a parallel system -- even a 'neutral' faction -- in that they are operating like a Military, rather than a business. For example, Darth Vader did not 'buy' a new ship from a merchant, but rather would of had it built by the Empire Military ship yards. In BSG, the would not 'buy' a battlestar from a Merchant, but rather would have it bulit by the colonial Fleet and give command to an officer (rather than sell it). The Romulans would not go an buy a ship from a Merchant, but rather would build it in their ship yards and give the commission to an officer of the Fleet. None of these Militaries would 'sell' their ship on an Auction House.

So again, I see it mirroring Modern Military Navies, rather than Modern Automotive markets.

'neutral' faction would be good.. pick any faction you want. like SWG or stay neutral

[SenshiBat]

Mihoshi -Kiyone
Galaxy Police
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

We're here to invsetigate the theft of ?? Credits.. nothing was acutual physicaly taken just liek an IOU..
But it has value as a letter of credit a line of credit a form of non-physical exchange...
However other places have real direct exchange units.. in lieu of certificates of exchange value..
So a crimes been comitted and punishment will happen...once we figure out what was taken from whom?
Like a Galatic Bank Credit[cash] Card Right? A PIN? Theft by swindle theft by proxey...hum lots of laws here
we could write up a lot of offences.. any witnesses.?

[TruthSeer]

I would assume that added factions would follow a parallel system -- even a 'neutral' faction -- in that they are operating like a Military, rather than a business. For example, Darth Vader did not 'buy' a new ship from a merchant, but rather would of had it built by the Empire Military ship yards. In BSG, the would not 'buy' a battlestar from a Merchant, but rather would have it bulit by the colonial Fleet and give command to an officer (rather than sell it). The Romulans would not go an buy a ship from a Merchant, but rather would build it in their ship yards and give the commission to an officer of the Fleet. None of these Militaries would 'sell' their ship on an Auction House.

So again, I see it mirroring Modern Military Navies, rather than Modern Automotive markets.

But all of those examples are militaristic examples, but a pirate faction possibly wouldn't be as organized. With a pirate faction think a faction run by Quark, prestige and a sack is worth a sack. You can have all the prestige in the world but if you don't have any money you won't go anywhere.

[Urantia]

But all of those examples are militaristic examples, but a pirate faction possibly wouldn't be as organized. With a pirate faction think a faction run by Quark, prestige and a sack is worth a sack. You can have all the prestige in the world but if you don't have any money you won't go anywhere.

Sounds like STO in general...unfortunately.

[Silverspar]

You are, since just about every Star Trek episode demonstrated Federation officers covetting an item they needed to get. You keep harping about how STO is now going to be everyone other MMO with a Star Trek skin.

[Urantia]

You are, since just about every Star Trek episode demonstrated Federation officers covetting an item they needed to get. You keep harping about how STO is now going to be everyone other MMO with a Star Trek skin.

Yes I did say this part (well not this exact wording)....and when it is not you can be the first to say "I told you so." But this does not mean I am being illogical. In fact, it is a valid prediction.....one I sincerely hope is false (believe me). In short my saying STO will be a generic MMORPG with a trek skin has no less weight that you saying it will not be. As for logic...you would not know logic if it came up and slapped you in the face my friend.

[LordDave]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer
Soo... the transporter credit is the acknowledgment that we beamed something and replicator is the acknowledgment that we made something....

oooooohhh snap, I think I figured it out!
When you mine, you get transporter credits (ie. income). Replicator credits (ie. expense). So when you beam in X ore you get transporter credit, which can be converted, I'd guess, to replicator or latinum.

woot dev posted thanks for the post..

im not flameing your idea or trolling or anything like that at all

if you could. could you explain how" transporter credits and replicator credits" ack as credit you earn?
i thought in other to use a transporter or a replicator you need power or energy to use them and you get that from the warp core.and what powers the warp core is dilithium crystals....if you could explain that, it would be very lightin for us
and on the side note. credits? i dont want to be mean or anything but for new people who never played STO they may take that as money.. have you guys talked about changeing the name of it to Prestige or something more star trekie?
Transporters take an object, convert it to quarks, and move them, then reassmeble it. It takes energy, but not a huge, huge amount.
Replicators take protein packs (for food) and something else for materials, converts that to energy(quarks) and reassembles it in a new pattern. If they used actual energy from the warp core, you'd have your entire fuel supply gone by lunch time.

[Nasedo]

Soo... the transporter credit is the acknowledgment that we beamed something and replicator is the acknowledgment that we made something....

oooooohhh snap, I think I figured it out!
When you mine, you get transporter credits (ie. income). Replicator credits (ie. expense). So when you beam in X ore you get transporter credit, which can be converted, I'd guess, to replicator or latinum.


Transporters take an object, convert it to quarks, and move them, then reassmeble it. It takes energy, but not a huge, huge amount.
Replicators take protein packs (for food) and something else for materials, converts that to energy(quarks) and reassembles it in a new pattern. If they used actual energy from the warp core, you'd have your entire fuel supply gone by lunch time.
i understand my question but i dont understand

Soo... the transporter credit is the acknowledgment that we beamed something and replicator is the acknowledgment that we made something....

oooooohhh snap, I think I figured it out!
When you mine, you get transporter credits (ie. income). Replicator credits (ie. expense). So when you beam in X ore you get transporter credit, which can be converted, I'd guess, to replicator or latinum.
can you break it down even more? Dave :)

Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that.

found this Quote on this site http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Category:Star_Trek_series

[LordDave]

can you break it down even more? Dave :)

Transport credit = Minerals
Replicator Credit = Stuff you can make

Minerals give you replicator credits, unless you trade it for latinum.

So for example:

You transport 1,000 kg of stuff. You can trade that for say... 20 bars of gold pressed latinum, or 500 replicator credits, or anything in between.

I'm probably wrong, but that's my guess.

[Nasedo]

Transport credit = Minerals
Replicator Credit = Stuff you can make

Minerals give you replicator credits, unless you trade it for latinum.

So for example:

You transport 1,000 kg of stuff. You can trade that for say... 20 bars of gold pressed latinum, or 500 replicator credits, or anything in between.

I'm probably wrong, but that's my guess.

i can see the replicator credits..doing that

but the Transporter credit = minerals? .. in order to get minerals your going to find ore's to mine or beam right up..and you do this for a few hours?... wont transporting ore get boreding?

[LordDave]

i can see the replicator credits..doing that

but the Transporter credit = minerals? .. in order to get minerals your going to find ore's to mine or beam right up..and you do this for a few hours?... wont transporting ore get boreding?

Absolutely, just like every other grind fest.
That's why you don't rely on it for your complete supply of replicator credits or latinum. lol.

[treknerd]

Originaly werent they ganna use reputation?

[Trowa824]

Lord Dave, what you said makes the most common sence in this whole thread when the Dev posted.

[Varrangian]

Soo... the transporter credit is the acknowledgment that we beamed something and replicator is the acknowledgment that we made something....

oooooohhh snap, I think I figured it out!
When you mine, you get transporter credits (ie. income). Replicator credits (ie. expense). So when you beam in X ore you get transporter credit, which can be converted, I'd guess, to replicator or latinum.


Transporters take an object, convert it to quarks, and move them, then reassmeble it. It takes energy, but not a huge, huge amount.
Replicators take protein packs (for food) and something else for materials, converts that to energy(quarks) and reassembles it in a new pattern. If they used actual energy from the warp core, you'd have your entire fuel supply gone by lunch time.

That's an interesting theory. I'm not sure I buy it, but I've been wrong in the past.

I actually think the "transporter credits" and "replicator credits" were examples of how the Federation conceptualizes it rather than things we will have to worry about in game.

From G0zer's post -

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges...

The way I read this is that when I turn in an "assignment" i.e. finish a mission I get credit for having completed it. Like Picard would get credit for doing his job as Captain of the Enterprise. With each successive mission I gain more "credit" which gives me access to greater privileges.

Again, I think the idea of "transporter" or "replicator" privileges are conceptual and not something we'll have to manage in game, but then again, some of those who want a sim should love the idea of having to manage such a system because regardless of the semantics it is resource management.

[Loekii]

I agree with Varrangian's interpretation.

I think Dave's interpretation -- while well thought out -- is still too 'currency focused', which clashes with what G0zer stated.

Basically, Privileges = reward/Prestige. They are not currency, nor commodities, nor are they 'purchased'. I see them more like the 'Credit' you get when you gain a Quest Item. You cannot trade or sell it, but it has 'value'. You gain something when you turn it in to the Quest Giver. So the 'privileges' are like those quest Items, and when you turn them in, you get your 'reward'. Basically it is a Prestige type system, rather than a currency type system.

I basically expect that you will be limited to your 'Prestige Level', so if you don't have enough Privilages, you cannot upgrade to the next ship class -- which you do not 'buy' with GPL, nor from another player, but rather are Allowed to use by your Faction Military.

[Stryklone]

"Step up, come on, come one, come all! Yes sir, yes m'am, yes - other, getcha new ship here! Your first one is free - you heard me right, free - but lose it or bang it up and a replacement or repair will cost ya!

And what does it cost, you ask? What is the currency to give you another ship or repair that hunkajunk you had towed in? Reputation. Want Starfleet to keep passing you keys to a new ship and still think you're a great captain? Who do ya think ya are, buster, James T. Kook - uh, Kirk?

Celebrate, go ahead and splurge, put a higher capacity warp core in your new baby. What currency will you use for that? Well, Starfleet needs Resources. After all, some things cam't be made in a replicator! Stick THAT in your dilithium pipe and smoke it!

What's that, sir? Where does Starfleet get resources, you ask? Aww, there's always a smart-a-- uh, smart creature in every crowd! Planets. Tell Starfleet every detail about 'em and move on while your Reputation shoots higher than a solar flare!

And when you're done, step right into this covenient bar and down a cool one. Or, in your case, sir: down three - one in each mouth. What currency do you use for that? Replicator Usage Units! Before you ask, those come with rank and length of service. You can even use yours on other worlds to make what they want - in exchange for what you want. After all, can't replicate that unique work of art without a year's worth of programming. That's why they call it unique, miss! Some places even give ya latinum for RUUs ... but some places give less than others, isn't that right, Quark?

Time for me to move on and find other suckers- uh, other discerning intellegences like yourselves."

End of pitch.

Stryklone
=========

[Varrangian]

I agree with Varrangian's interpretation.

I think Dave's interpretation -- while well thought out -- is still too 'currency focused', which clashes with what G0zer stated.

Basically, Privileges = reward/Prestige. They are not currency, nor commodities, nor are they 'purchased'. I see them more like the 'Credit' you get when you gain a Quest Item. You cannot trade or sell it, but it has 'value'. You gain something when you turn it in to the Quest Giver. So the 'privileges' are like those quest Items, and when you turn them in, you get your 'reward'. Basically it is a Prestige type system, rather than a currency type system.

I basically expect that you will be limited to your 'Prestige Level', so if you don't have enough Privilages, you cannot upgrade to the next ship class -- which you do not 'buy' with GPL, nor from another player, but rather are Allowed to use by your Faction Military.

From the GI article...

Starfleet contacts you with a request to delivers a Vulcan ambassador to his race's religious monastery on P'jem. Once there, a small fleet of Klingon ships attacks, warning that P'jem has been infiltrated by Species 8472, the dangerous race first seen in Star Trek Voyager. Fearing the threat this race represents, the Klingon’s intend to capture the planet, an action you must now prevent. The space battle eventually goes planet side you have to deliver the ambassador to his destination as Klingon forces continue their attack in closer quarters. After this hard fought victory, Starfleet contacts you to relay that they've found the actual body of the Vulcan ambassador. Realizing the man you accompanied is an imposter, you track him down and he reveals his identity as a disguised member of Species 8472, then flees to a Klingon ship. You give pursuit, and finally destroy the ship, but as the episode ends a number of curious threads remain unsolved as to how this alien race managed to reach Starfleet and what their intentions are.(transcribed by Knights Templar Fleet and Jay)

So what I see happening is you finish the above episode/mission. At the end you get contacted by Starfleet command.

"You've read your report Captain Varr. This is a very disturbing series of events. While it is unfortunate you had to destroy the ship this infiltrator was on, that is better than the option of letting him get away. Good work Captain, I've added a commendation to your file."

Game runs a check to see how many "credits" you've earned. It sees you've earned enough to qualify for some new privilege.

"By the way Varr, there is a new experimental X that we'd like tested. I've recommended that you be the one to test it. You can pick it up and have it installed at starbase Y. Admiral ZAB out."

This is how I see it. Then again I have a good imagination. :D

[LordDave]

From the GI article...



So what I see happening is you finish the above episode/mission. At the end you get contacted by Starfleet command.

"You've read your report Captain Varr. This is a very disturbing series of events. While it is unfortunate you had to destroy the ship this infiltrator was on, that is better than the option of letting him get away. Good work Captain, I've added a commendation to your file."

Game runs a check to see how many "credits" you've earned. It sees you've earned enough to qualify for some new privilege.

"By the way Varr, there is a new experimental X that we'd like tested. I've recommended that you be the one to test it. You can pick it up and have it installed at starbase Y. Admiral ZAB out."

This is how I see it. Then again I have a good imagination. :D

That's not a bad idea actually. Give it a choice like:
"There are several new experimental X es we're testing. " So let's say you're more combat oritented so you choose the higher powered phaser that doesn't drain your power as much. If you like to fly fast, you choose the more efficient impulse engine. ect...

[Varrangian]

That's not a bad idea actually. Give it a choice like:
"There are several new experimental X es we're testing. " So let's say you're more combat oritented so you choose the higher powered phaser that doesn't drain your power as much. If you like to fly fast, you choose the more efficient impulse engine. ect...

Oh totally there would have to be a level of choice otherwise progression and gameplay would become far to cookie cutter.

[LordDave]

Oh totally there would have to be a level of choice otherwise progression and gameplay would become far to cookie cutter.

Hmmmm....
Maybe you can expand on that.
What if you don't get money, but credit to acquire a new improvement. Like:

Awards:
1 - Tier 2 upgrade
2 - Replicator Items

Ect...
And when you gain a new rank or something, you get a 1 ship credit, where you can get another ship.

[Varrangian]

Hmmmm....
Maybe you can expand on that.
What if you don't get money, but credit to acquire a new improvement. Like:

Awards:
1 - Tier 2 upgrade
2 - Replicator Items

Ect...
And when you gain a new rank or something, you get a 1 ship credit, where you can get another ship.

Part of me actually wonders if this is how we will gain rank. I mean by getting "credit" for doing missions. We gain may types of credits or just a large pool and we can spend them on the ship, our character, our bridge crew or the general crew. This way each persons path of progression would be different. Maybe too different though?

[Voorhees]

Which is why I think prestige is a better word to use.


The word prestige does not make sense in a lot of situations. For example. On voyager They were given credit to build up to replicate something. Example. On voyager there were episodes that they bet on holodeck or replicator time or bartered with this.

[Azurian]

I'm sorry, but using Replicatior Rationing and Holodeck Rationing being the same as "credit" is rediculous. Because they are not the same.

Rationing is the controlling of distribution of scarce goods. And on Voyager, they were limiting use of Replicator use and Holodecks so conserve power in unknown space.

Credit however is essentially peputation for solvency and integrity entitling a person to be trusted in buying or borrowing. Or an arrangement for deferred payment of a loan or purchase.

In short, they are two different animals.

[Nasedo]

wow these's are some awesome ideas... i woke up at a good time

[cocoa-jin]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

So would a Starfleet officer have to give his "privlege" to another starfleet officer to acquires ships, goods and services? Would that starfleet officer(seller) then accumalate that "privelege" for personal use or will that privelege evaporate away(which i think it should) and the starfleet officer acquire privelege from command for services rendered in the name and interest of the faction?

[LordDave]

So would a Starfleet officer have to give his "privlege" to another starfleet officer to acquires ships, goods and services? Would that starfleet officer(seller) then accumalate that "privelege" for personal use or will that privelege evaporate away(which i think it should) and the starfleet officer acquire privelege from command for services rendered in the name and interest of the faction?

I would imagine you trade.
Although it would be funny as hell to have merchants to sell stuff but never actually make any money/favors/credits/whatever. They just give stuff away to people who have the credit.

[Nasedo]

I would imagine you trade.
Although it would be funny as hell to have merchants to sell stuff but never actually make any money/favors/credits/whatever. They just give stuff away to people who have the credit.

it would be hella funny lol

[cocoa-jin]

I would imagine you trade.
Although it would be funny as hell to have merchants to sell stuff but never actually make any money/favors/credits/whatever. They just give stuff away to people who have the credit.

Well we already know my view point, Im just thinking how obsurd it is to have starfleet captains building and selling...essentially capital enterprising and profiting off of other starfleet officers.

I understand the useage of privilege/prestege for acquiring things...but that privelege/prestege ought to be from command to officers for performing their duties. This "currency" would only be of value to command/faction...so no one outside of command should be able to make use of it...prestege and privelege would bt non-transferable.

So essentially no one could accumalate anothers privelege/prestege(P/P for short) for their own use. So P/P would be used and then destroyed. Now assuming the "seller" is a Starfleet officer and he is providing goods to another Starfleet officer, that transaction is in the name and interests of Starfleet, with the "purchase' of those goods through P/P going to command and once used they are destroyed. Now the Starfleet "seller" ought to gain P/P from Starfleet for providing the goods to another Starfleet officer and so command provides P/P to the "seller".

The amount of P/P required for the upgrade into lets say a ship is determined by command, the "buyer" gives up that amount of P/P(which is destroyed)...which isnt necessarily the same amount of P/P provided to the "seller" for services rendered. So "sellers" dont profit off of other officers. The "prices" are fixed. "Sellers" acquire P/P from command for services rendered.

So no price gouging, no conflicts of interests...hopefully it discourage pointless and productive grinding to try and get enough money to buy stuff...you just do your job, perform your duties to earn the privelege and prestege to get bigger, shinnier stuff.

The beauty of P/P that it can only be transferrable between the officer and command, and that one needs only to do his job...whatever it maybe. It can be PvE, PvP, research, exploration. The value of the duties performed is dictated by command and can not be devalued or diluted by players with a preferred currency or inflation of prices, etc.

Keep in mind...this all Starfleet to Starfleet transactions Im speaking of.

[Loekii]

From the GI article...



So what I see happening is you finish the above episode/mission. At the end you get contacted by Starfleet command.

"You've read your report Captain Varr. This is a very disturbing series of events. While it is unfortunate you had to destroy the ship this infiltrator was on, that is better than the option of letting him get away. Good work Captain, I've added a commendation to your file."

Game runs a check to see how many "credits" you've earned. It sees you've earned enough to qualify for some new privilege.

"By the way Varr, there is a new experimental X that we'd like tested. I've recommended that you be the one to test it. You can pick it up and have it installed at starbase Y. Admiral ZAB out."

This is how I see it. Then again I have a good imagination. :D


That is sort of how I imagine it coming down as well --- as opposed to:

"Here are some Credits Captain. You can go down to the Auction House and Purchase a Player Made Nebula Class ship, or perhaps buy some Player Made Phaser and Torp weapon mounts...."

I don't see players buying other things from other players - at least not things of substance. I do expect to see bartering occurring in the sense of raw materials and what not, but basic equipment I see coming from Prestige.

[-Brett-]

or CBS could pull Star Trek License because it doesnt live up to the IP.. it has happen be for, Cryptic said it wont be just another MMO. it would be and feel like Startrek (something like that) how can it be like Star Trek if some things are not right...makeing a Game with this kind of IP is very Dangerous.. what if they plan on making a DS9 movie? or Voyager movie? STO has alt the hole Star Trek universe

If there's another series or movie set in this era, it'll just ignore STO. Games aren't considered a part of the official Star Trek continuity. They're supposed to defer the shows and movies, but the reverse is not true.

[Bitstorm]

The way I understand it the Federation doesn't use money but they use 'trade' to barter for items with each species. Which could in turn be constituted as credit trading. I don't see how Earths economy would even work with 3 billion people or so, all different races, with out some sort of 'prestige' or 'Credit' system in place. Otherwise why would a person working in a component manufacturing plant for starship parts be working his butt off?

I think it comes down to the fact that the basic needs are taken care of 'free of charge' but anything extra that you want to have in your home or what not needs to have some sort of credit system in place.


Thats my take on reading the forums here and checking out the canon site online.



Bitstorm

[LordDave]

Otherwise why would a person working in a component manufacturing plant for starship parts be working his butt off?


Because in the fantasy world of Star Trek you WANT to work your butt off, just because you want to better the world. No other reason. Yessir, the world of star trek has a human race that is a complete 180 from the way we think now.

[Bitstorm]

Because in the fantasy world of Star Trek you WANT to work your butt off, just because you want to better the world. No other reason. Yessir, the world of star trek has a human race that is a complete 180 from the way we think now.


Indeed....


I wish our world was like that now...


Bitstorm

[Varrangian]

The way I understand it the Federation doesn't use money but they use 'trade' to barter for items with each species. Which could in turn be constituted as credit trading. I don't see how Earths economy would even work with 3 billion people or so, all different races, with out some sort of 'prestige' or 'Credit' system in place. Otherwise why would a person working in a component manufacturing plant for starship parts be working his butt off?

I think it comes down to the fact that the basic needs are taken care of 'free of charge' but anything extra that you want to have in your home or what not needs to have some sort of credit system in place.


Thats my take on reading the forums here and checking out the canon site online.



Bitstorm

This has basically been my view on things too. The Federation does not have poverty in the sense of homelessness, starvation, death due to lack of healthcare, etc... but not everyone can have everything they want.

We know that the matter/anti-matter reaction requires some items that are impossible to replicate and get used up over the course of time. This means that while vast amounts of energy can be created energy is not unlimited.

We know that replicators use energy to re-create matter patterns stored in memory. If you look at the amount of energy created when you break matter apart you can imagine the amount of energy required to go the other way around.

For this reason I do not see it as possible that any society can take care of every desire a person has. Picard has a fish tank, a copy of the complete works of Shakespeare, a model of the Constellation class, a crystal sailing ship, and a ceramic statue. This is just his ready room, but let us say his quarters have no personal items. Even the spartaness of his ready room would be hard to "replicate" for every single individual in the Federation, which I believe by Picard's time is far more than 3 billion people, would be very taxing on their resources.

This is even more acute if people have no motivation to go to work to make sure the "machinery" of the Federation keeps rolling. So some system that rewards people for their work is still necessary.

Now some will claim "But we've evolved past 'desires' in Picard's time. We have no more material desires." Then why does Picard have these items in his ready room? If we've cast of material wants why have them, and especially why display them? Even if his motivation is sentimentality these are still material desires their "motivational" value does not matter. It will still take resources to produce these items.

[Varrangian]

Because in the fantasy world of Star Trek you WANT to work your butt off, just because you want to better the world. No other reason. Yessir, the world of star trek has a human race that is a complete 180 from the way we think now.

Do I detect sarcasm?

In any case... this argument falls short in one specific case. How do you motivate people to do the jobs no one wants, but cannot be automated? Certainly there will be jobs that no one wants to do.

This is where this specific line of Trek logic worries me most, because the only solution (minus forms of motivation) I can think of is to force people in to specific careers based on some statistical basis. The idea of this sort of forced future is probably the most disturbing thing I can think of, man if I did not have the freedom to pursue the career path I wanted I'd likely go mad or kill myself. That is no life at all.

[cocoa-jin]

Do I detect sarcasm?

In any case... this argument falls short in one specific case. How do you motivate people to do the jobs no one wants, but cannot be automated? Certainly there will be jobs that no one wants to do.

This is where this specific line of Trek logic worries me most, because the only solution (minus forms of motivation) I can think of is to force people in to specific careers based on some statistical basis. The idea of this sort of forced future is probably the most disturbing thing I can think of, man if I did not have the freedom to pursue the career path I wanted I'd likely go mad or kill myself. That is no life at all.

Signing bonuses, perks like extra vacation time, upgrade in housing...it doesnt have to be a mansion, just better than what they can expect without the job.

Require that one works/produces to acquire goods...if you dont qualify for something worthwhile, if you are only McDonald's caliber intellectually, etc...then you have to work someplace in order to acquire the credits/privelege to acquire goods.

If they dont produce, dont perform you downgrade their "salary", let them go if necessary...eventually they recognize the need to work/produce or they dont, either their work ethic improves or is doesnt...they then accept the consequences of their choices.

[Nasedo]

If there's another series or movie set in this era, it'll just ignore STO. Games aren't considered a part of the official Star Trek continuity. They're supposed to defer the shows and movies, but the reverse is not true.

really? then whats with the The Path to 2409... i thought it would tell us what happen between those's years. as it was official?
im not the smartess Star Trek person but im trying
(been Star Trek fan since TNG launched)

[Nasedo]

Because in the fantasy world of Star Trek you WANT to work your butt off, just because you want to better the world. No other reason. Yessir, the world of star trek has a human race that is a complete 180 from the way we think now.


Indeed....


I wish our world was like that now...


Bitstorm

I agree.. i think its geting around that time right now we need to look forward and work to better are selfs and better mankind (P.S sorry for double post, forgot to quickly i posted here already)

Nasedo

[Varrangian]

Signing bonuses, perks like extra vacation time, upgrade in housing...it doesnt have to be a mansion, just better than what they can expect without the job.

Require that one works/produces to acquire goods...if you dont qualify for something worthwhile, if you are only McDonald's caliber intellectually, etc...then you have to work someplace in order to acquire the credits/privelege to acquire goods.

If they dont produce, dont perform you downgrade their "salary", let them go if necessary...eventually they recognize the need to work/produce or they dont, either their work ethic improves or is doesnt...they then accept the consequences of their choices.

Those are all motivations.

The reality is that not everyone in Picard's world can be Picard yet most people would like his life or the life of someone in a similar level of respect/authority. Because not everyone can achieve that there has to be other motivations.

[LordDave]

Do I detect sarcasm?

In any case... this argument falls short in one specific case. How do you motivate people to do the jobs no one wants, but cannot be automated? Certainly there will be jobs that no one wants to do.

This is where this specific line of Trek logic worries me most, because the only solution (minus forms of motivation) I can think of is to force people in to specific careers based on some statistical basis. The idea of this sort of forced future is probably the most disturbing thing I can think of, man if I did not have the freedom to pursue the career path I wanted I'd likely go mad or kill myself. That is no life at all.
And now you understand the flaw in the Utopia that Trek tries to show us. If people aren't greedy *******s who want stuff for the sake of having it or survival, then how do you get them to do the jobs no one wants?
We know in Voyager's time that the EMH was used recommissioned for menial labor like mining and scrubbing plasma conduits. Anyone who wants to do these tasks because they feel it's a good career opportunity and they get fulfillment from it has mental issues. Well... except maybe for miner. Maybe. I don't know any miners so I can't say.
Anyway beyond that we know nothing. The economics, government, and essentially everything but the military life is unknown to us and explaining it would probably be impossible without loosing the charm of Utopia.

Oh and no sarcasm used. Intentionally.

really? then whats with the The Path to 2409... i thought it would tell us what happen between those's years. as it was official?
im not the smartess Star Trek person but im trying
(been Star Trek fan since TNG launched)

Nope. The Path to 2409 is strictly for the game's back story. It is not official canon and more then likely the movie coming out will be the start of new, official canon, replacing the old canon. The last movie (Nemesis) was, then, the end of canon.

[cocoa-jin]

Those are all motivations.

The reality is that not everyone in Picard's world can be Picard yet most people would like his life or the life of someone in a similar level of respect/authority. Because not everyone can achieve that there has to be other motivations.

But they cant...just like now...so they settle. The motivators are such that those who fail or cant do better are inticed into doing what others wont/dont have to. The motivators are to ease those who must or will settle, to settle into those jobs difficult to fill.

Motivators arent the issue...motivation of some sort is a primary means of behavior and the changing of behavior. The incentives have to be carefully weighed though to not unbalance the system.

[cocoa-jin]

And now you understand the flaw in the Utopia that Trek tries to show us. If people aren't greedy *******s who want stuff for the sake of having it or survival, then how do you get them to do the jobs no one wants?
We know in Voyager's time that the EMH was used recommissioned for menial labor like mining and scrubbing plasma conduits. Anyone who wants to do these tasks because they feel it's a good career opportunity and they get fulfillment from it has mental issues. Well... except maybe for miner. Maybe. I don't know any miners so I can't say.
Anyway beyond that we know nothing. The economics, government, and essentially everything but the military life is unknown to us and explaining it would probably be impossible without loosing the charm of Utopia.

Oh and no sarcasm used. Intentionally.
.

Had there been no means for automated execution of these jobs, they would be filled by people...it would be those people incapable of doing anything else. Just because a Utopian society has the resources to provide the basic needs(and maybe more) of its population doesnt mean its just given out to all without some exchange of productivity of the individual.

People dont just work in a utopia just for the betterment of the society, they do it to recieve access to those things required to live. So a miner will do the job if they dont qualify for something else(because not all Fed citizens will be the best and brightest) if it provides a way to have a home, feed themselves raise a family, etc, etc. Also lets not forget that the Feds dont necessarily exclude private enterprise.

But for Starfleet, not everyone can be Picard, they will do what they qualify for...if it cant be automated someone will do it. To automate such things on a starship isnt because of the failures of a utopian society...its to provide efficiency and reduce required crew for a rather small ship already.

If automated minning or scrubbing is a sign of failure, than robots in automobile factories are a sign of capitalist failure...and its not....just like the removal of flight engineers in airline cockpits isnt a sign of failure...its efficiency, its reduced operating costs, it provides a means to divert man power to other critical jobs...for which some might not be desirable.

There is will always be someone to do the dirty job. It only requires you have no job and thus limited access to required goods to motivate people to do what they do now...and thats take the job thats available and still meets the needs of the household. The beauty of the Utopian system is that atleast the dirty jobs provide a means to meet your basic needs. You may not have all the best cool, best, shinny "extra stuff", but you will eat well, have a residence that fits the needs of your family, etc.

So a miner may come home to the same residential unit as an engineer, but the miners home may fit his family of 5, while the engineer may be single with the same unit, so he has extra space. You may have basic things, he may have lots of extra fancy stuff.

Anyway...Utopian societies dont mean they just give stuff away for nothing. A non-capitalist/non-private enterprising Starfleet can operate the same way. You gain access to stuff for performing your duty whatever it is. No Starfleet officer profits off of other Starfleet officers, no Starfleet officer uses his position as an officer nor his starship as a means or vehicle toward capital gain.

Lastly, Starfleet goods and services wouldnt be allowed outside of Starfleet facilities and distribution networks. Any private contracting for these services would remain and operate within the standard Starfleet model. Any currency transaction wouldnt be between contractor and starfleet officer, but between the contractor and starfleet command for services and goods rendered to the officer...for a fixed contracted price.

[Trekkie]

To be honest I think that some people are making too big of a deal out of this; really, I think this is an issue of what is good for the game versus what may be closer to what has been established in the Star Trek canon. Although I understand why people are frustrated and such, I think that currency is sort of a standard element of massively multiplayer online games and I'm really not that surprised to hear that Starfleet is going to use it. Still, thank you for the clarification -- it definitely helps to alleviate some of my fears!

[-Brett-]

really? then whats with the The Path to 2409... i thought it would tell us what happen between those's years. as it was official?
im not the smartess Star Trek person but im trying
(been Star Trek fan since TNG launched)

It's the game's backstory. The developer's take on what happens between the end of Nemesis and 2409. Only the shows and movies are considered to be the official happenings of the Star Trek world. Books and games tell storys about what happens before, between, or after, but a future show or movie won't be constrained by that.

Since the chances of any more movies or shows set in the continuity we know are virtually zero, it's kind of a moot point anyway.

[Loekii]

To be honest I think that some people are making too big of a deal out of this; really, I think this is an issue of what is good for the game versus what may be closer to what has been established in the Star Trek canon. Although I understand why people are frustrated and such, I think that currency is sort of a standard element of massively multiplayer online games and I'm really not that surprised to hear that Starfleet is going to use it. Still, thank you for the clarification -- it definitely helps to alleviate some of my fears!


I think it has less to do with staying 'with trek', and more do we people desiring to steer clear of a capitalistic system -- where players 'buy'/'sell' their way through the game.

I don't mind the idea of 'Privilages' earned and spent, much like reputation so to speak. Your toon acquires the benefits and privileges that he/she directly earned, and 'Gold' has little value other than a minor service.

What I don't like is 'WoW-Bay' gaming, where players manipulate the game via trades and sales -- as seen in WoW, where the entire game is driven by 'gold'.

The nice thing about Star Trek fiction, is that it is more the former, and not really the latter, which is why it is being cited as a strong reason to keep a 'WoW economy' out of STO.

[Varrangian]

But they cant...just like now...so they settle. The motivators are such that those who fail or cant do better are inticed into doing what others wont/dont have to. The motivators are to ease those who must or will settle, to settle into those jobs difficult to fill.

Motivators arent the issue...motivation of some sort is a primary means of behavior and the changing of behavior. The incentives have to be carefully weighed though to not unbalance the system.

Motivators are exactly the issue because as long as people are not entirely free to achieve their goals/dreams you will never have a utopian society.

As egalitarian as Trek is it cannot solve the issue that there will be competition for jobs. Even in a world of only 3 billion people there would likely be over 1,000,000 people who are qualified, capable and desirous of being the Captain of the Enterprise or any other ship like it, but there are not that many opportunities. Therefore there will have to be some form of economic motivators. "Signing bonuses, perks like extra vacation time, upgrade in housing." These are all economic motivations they require people to get fulfillment from "material" things.

But according to everyone the Federation utopia does not have material wants, it does not have an internal economy or even economic motivators. What really scares me about this line of thought is that it leads to forcing people into positions because they must be filled. You'll likely argue it is only those "unqualified" for other positions that would end up doing whatever the 25th century considers menial labor, but the problem comes in determining who is "unqualified". Again you'll likely argue that the Federation has achieved some perfect formula to determine what professions people are best matched to. What happens when you're the one determined to only be fit to clean the jefferies tubes or whatever the 25th century equivalent is to a dead end job? It is fine when it is someone else, but when it is you, you can't help but question the perfection of that formula.

That's not life, that's slavery to data, statistics and technocracy.

[Loekii]

I would gather that GPL might be more like 'play money' you get when you go to some resorts. They only have value at that resort, and are only used to buy food, drinks, etc, instead of Cars, Property, Medical Insurance, etc.

Basically, its just a translation or vehicle into that other economy -- you just need enough to get your business done, and do not really 'horde' it (aka its a tool rather than a treasure).

[cocoa-jin]

Motivators are exactly the issue because as long as people are not entirely to achieve their goals/dreams you will never have a utopian society.

As egalitarian as Trek is it cannot solve the issue that there will be competition for jobs. Even in a world of only 3 billion people there would likely be over 1,000,000 people who are qualified, capable and desirous of being the Captain of the Enterprise or any other ship like it, but there are not that many opportunities. Therefore there will have to be some form of economic motivators. "Signing bonuses, perks like extra vacation time, upgrade in housing." These are all economic motivations they require people to get fulfillment from "material" things.

But according to everyone the Federation utopia does not have material wants, it does not have an internal economy or even economic motivators. What really scares me about this line of thought is that it leads to forcing people into positions because they must be filled. You'll likely argue it is only those "unqualified" for other positions that would end up doing whatever the 25th century considers menial labor, but the problem comes in determining who is "unqualified". Again you'll likely argue that the Federation has achieved some perfect formula to determine what professions people are best matched to. What happens when you're the one determined to only be fit to clean the jefferies tubes or whatever the 25th century equivalent is to a dead end job? It is fine when it is someone else, but when it is you, you can't help but question the perfection of that formula.

That's not life, that's slavery to data, statistics and technocracy.

I thought it was established that the Federations doesnt necessarily exclude private enterprise, though it certainly seems large scale enterprising is rare. I dont think its the lack of a desire for material gain...I think its a society that has gotten away from placing personal value on acquiring material excess. Material is required for existence, but in this future, people have desires and are allowed to meet them, but what has happened is a move away from a consumerism based society, people placing self value in their stuff. I think the fearful mentality of individual hording now because of fears, uncertainty and personal insecurity about the future, fear of not having enough to live, eat, medical care, etc for tomorrow, isnt present. Its the security provide through the society that promotes the type of mentality.

Essentially the state meets the needs of the people by providing mana to the masses, the masses take what they need knowing tomorrow it'll be there again...hording is pointless. No need to follow old primative ways of thinking, thinking designed to promote survival in times when one's future was less certain...when you were essentially on your own.

But lets not forget the concept of a utopia is likly mis-placed. think people still confuse Starfleet and the Federation...the utopia often used for the Feds is likly better representative of Starfleet.

Starfleet, like any other organzied state military, provides access to goods and services required to perform one's duties to its members at no cost to the memebers, but likly with some prerequistes....either way, you only earn that access by producing...producing with respect to performing one's duties.

Even in a possible Fed utopia, people wouldnt be forced to do menial jobs anymore than they are in a capitalist society. Just like a man who has bills and a familty to feed may find himself working at Wal-Mart not because he was directly forced to...but his circumstances certainly pushed him in that direction.

The same forces would apply in a utopian society where access to goods and services is based on one's contribution to production. If you arent working you arent acquiring a means for goods and services. If you dont get the manager position you try for the supervisor position, you dont get that try for the entry position, etc.

But at some point you'll need to work and you'll take what you can get....or you have a hard time eating, you dont have a roof of your own over your head, etc. No one makes you get a job scrubbing reactor ports...but you'll take it if its all you got...but if get a job, even a menial one in a utopian society, at least you dont live in poverty.

[olivier1001]

I really wonder how the dev team will come with a satisfacting solution for the economy.

The game needs one for sure!

Getting credits for finalizing a mission could be one way. We could see this as a reward and increase of confidence from the federation: the good captains get credits and get therefore a better ship and a better team.

There should be then an economy using cash like latinium to allow trade with civilizations.

I hope the game will have a strong economy.

[cocoa-jin]

I really wonder how the dev team will come with a satisfacting solution for the economy.

The game needs one for sure!

Getting credits for finalizing a mission could be one way. We could see this as a reward and increase of confidence from the federation: the good captains get credits and get therefore a better ship and a better team.

There should be then an economy using cash like latinium to allow trade with civilizations.

I hope the game will have a strong economy.

The economy needs to exist where appropriate...civilians trading civilian goods amoung civilians is acceptable...though a black market of military grade goods by civilian traders to less than desirables would be interesting too.

[Syph3n77]

IMO, I'm not sure a global economy would be right for this game. Maybe there can be a system of bonuses programmed in to give you semi-random occurrences for instance, after you complete "X" amount of missions, you get a special Sub-Space message from an Admiral asking you to test out some new technology for a bit. Then we can get a little bonus like an experimental Trans Warp Drive or Sick Cloaking device. Maybe something revolutionary to break away from the "traditional" MMORPGs rewards on completing missions or quests. Don't forget, we're going to be gallivanting around the quadrant in a space ship with weapons matching the class ship we get to command at that "level" of our captains at the time. Do we really need Gold Pressed Latinum to buy weapons? Not IMO. What can we really buy? The Federation will give us what we need. If we are allowed to play as Klingons, I'm sure a Bird of Prey doesn't need reloading as much as a Galaxy Class ship right??

[Interdictor]

I really wonder how the dev team will come with a satisfacting solution for the economy.

The game needs one for sure!

Getting credits for finalizing a mission could be one way. We could see this as a reward and increase of confidence from the federation: the good captains get credits and get therefore a better ship and a better team.

There should be then an economy using cash like latinium to allow trade with civilizations.

I hope the game will have a strong economy.
More than likely they will solve the question of "federation money" like they did in CoX; Influence/presteige. Basically it can be thought of as "calling in favours" so to speak. You don't often see superheroes going around buying stuff with cash but you do see them interacting with their contacts a lot.

So, I predict something similar - maybe an amalgamation of "currency"/reputation/influence to represent a wide variety of economic systems. It would be perfect and would't have us keeping track of different amounts of Federation Credits, Klingon Currency, Latinum, etc.

[Adaman]

Motivators are exactly the issue because as long as people are not entirely free to achieve their goals/dreams you will never have a utopian society.

As egalitarian as Trek is it cannot solve the issue that there will be competition for jobs. Even in a world of only 3 billion people there would likely be over 1,000,000 people who are qualified, capable and desirous of being the Captain of the Enterprise or any other ship like it, but there are not that many opportunities. Therefore there will have to be some form of economic motivators. "Signing bonuses, perks like extra vacation time, upgrade in housing." These are all economic motivations they require people to get fulfillment from "material" things.

But according to everyone the Federation utopia does not have material wants, it does not have an internal economy or even economic motivators. What really scares me about this line of thought is that it leads to forcing people into positions because they must be filled. You'll likely argue it is only those "unqualified" for other positions that would end up doing whatever the 25th century considers menial labor, but the problem comes in determining who is "unqualified". Again you'll likely argue that the Federation has achieved some perfect formula to determine what professions people are best matched to. What happens when you're the one determined to only be fit to clean the jefferies tubes or whatever the 25th century equivalent is to a dead end job? It is fine when it is someone else, but when it is you, you can't help but question the perfection of that formula.

That's not life, that's slavery to data, statistics and technocracy.

I thought it was established that the Federations doesnt necessarily exclude private enterprise, though it certainly seems large scale enterprising is rare. I dont think its the lack of a desire for material gain...I think its a society that has gotten away from placing personal value on acquiring material excess. Material is required for existence, but in this future, people have desires and are allowed to meet them, but what has happened is a move away from a consumerism based society, people placing self value in their stuff. I think the fearful mentality of individual hording now because of fears, uncertainty and personal insecurity about the future, fear of not having enough to live, eat, medical care, etc for tomorrow, isnt present. Its the security provide through the society that promotes the type of mentality.

Essentially the state meets the needs of the people by providing mana to the masses, the masses take what they need knowing tomorrow it'll be there again...hording is pointless. No need to follow old primative ways of thinking, thinking designed to promote survival in times when one's future was less certain...when you were essentially on your own.

But lets not forget the concept of a utopia is likly mis-placed. think people still confuse Starfleet and the Federation...the utopia often used for the Feds is likly better representative of Starfleet.

Starfleet, like any other organzied state military, provides access to goods and services required to perform one's duties to its members at no cost to the memebers, but likly with some prerequistes....either way, you only earn that access by producing...producing with respect to performing one's duties.

Even in a possible Fed utopia, people wouldnt be forced to do menial jobs anymore than they are in a capitalist society. Just like a man who has bills and a familty to feed may find himself working at Wal-Mart not because he was directly forced to...but his circumstances certainly pushed him in that direction.

The same forces would apply in a utopian society where access to goods and services is based on one's contribution to production. If you arent working you arent acquiring a means for goods and services. If you dont get the manager position you try for the supervisor position, you dont get that try for the entry position, etc.

But at some point you'll need to work and you'll take what you can get....or you have a hard time eating, you dont have a roof of your own over your head, etc. No one makes you get a job scrubbing reactor ports...but you'll take it if its all you got...but if get a job, even a menial one in a utopian society, at least you dont live in poverty.

I normally do not take time to argue on forums as I find it can often lead to nowhere but in this case I feel as though I should interject. I must say that I have to agree with agree with cocoa-jin

This is an argument I've constantly had with my colleagues and peers regarding the Terran economy in Star Trek and from what we've gathered we have established that Earth has adopted a socialist mindset. When people hear this they often mistake it for communism which is incredibly dissimilar to the socialist philosophy.

Basically Socialism is closer to democracy in that they are both liberal ;multiple people (ideally everyone) are in charge and have a say in the distrobution of wealth and power in order to respectively adhere to the interests of the citizens. Communism, on the other hand, is closer to the republican party in that they are more conservative; fewer people (ideally one person) are in charge and make the decisions regarding the distrobution of the economy which leads to them adhering to their own interests. Communism originally began as the socialist party invisionmed by Karl Marx, however when Vladimir Lenin gained power the very meaning of the word changed when he replaced the government with a repressive regime that used socialist politics. That is why people often mistake Socialism and Communism.

What Verrangian doesn't seem to grasp is that, in Starfleet, these so called "economic motivators" are obsolete in a society where citizens who work hard and do their job well merit them anyway. In this utopian society, People actually get what they deserve instead of having corrupt officials keeping these priveledges for themselves to distribute among people and businesses of their choosing. As for employment, you literally get a job that you deserve, not in the sense that in the future there is some kind of aptitude test everyone takes which is run through a machine to determine the career you will have until you shed your mortal coil, but that you go through several years preperational schooling in your early years, you learn about the world and with your inate aptitudes and skills you will want to study (as you would if you were in college or university) for a career choice suited for you. Also the fact that the population of earth is halved aids in solving the dilemna of unemployment.

Furthermore the whole directive of a perfect socialist order is that it creates a classless society. Everyone is equal so everyone is granted with everything they are entitled to according to the charter of human rights (food, shelter, etc.), anything else you gain is merited through hard work. So because of the removal of desire for material wealth, corruption grinds to a halt, rendering coverups and dishonesty unecessary. At the point in time that TNG takes place there are so many things that people just never need to think about regarding envy or jelousy. Through the generations the whole mindset would have disapeared.

Are there people who are unhappy in Star Trek? It would be abolutely impossible if there weren't, however they wouldn't be unhappy for entirely the same reasons we would be today. Their sadness would revolve more around subjects regarding an abscence of love, or perhaps current events, but they wouldn't be obsessing over whetther or not somebody at work has been giving him the short end of the stick or if they are going to be fired. In Star Trek you can actually live the life you want.

[TruthSeer]

The whole thing about the Federation getting rid of poverty is really a propaganda lie. We've seen on some TNG (I think) and DS9 (I know) episodes that its the core planets that get the attention and the effort, but planets that are farther out and/or weren't there from the beginning aren't close to what Earth is.

[anubis_1987]

lol we need some kind of currency otherwise the game wont be as fun.. getting stuff for free ruins the challenge in an mmo for me

in DS9, i have never seen a starfleet get free drinks from Quarks (sorry for spelling). Starfleet may have no form of currency - but other races do....

For instance Dilithium is used by all races - why not have that as a form of currency? Gold Press Latnum (again sorry for spelling) is also a common form of currency



What i dont get - is the amount of bars | shops | etc on all startrek episodes involving Earth. If Starfleet has no form of currenct AND have the use of replicators, why are there so many shops and bars on Earth - doesnt make sence. Do the owners of these establishments just serve drink after drink / item after item... for fun? I dont think so.

[Bitstorm]

I agree with Anubis, Think star trek armada here for a minute. one of the resources required to build ships and what not was Gold Pressed Latinum and Dilithium.

DS9 (not a huge fan) had its federation members on the stations using GPL in the various shops. I believe from the DS9 story that they had a set amount of GPL they could spend per week or month and it was like a ration.

Voyager had Replicator and Holodeck rations. It can all be incorporated into the game one way or another.


I think everyone here has a valid opinion but in all reality in todays society we need some form of currency in this game or otherwise people will get bored with getting everything as quickly as possible.


I think that using GPL or any rations can be part of the motivator but not the sole motivator of setting goals in the game. consider it part of the required items needed but not all to be able to build a starship or get a new component.


Bitstorm

[lordoffiling]

I think maybe we're all over-thinking this.

Federation Credit is established canon, it will almost certainly be in the game. Ideally, though, we'd be using it to buy our "fluff" items. The stuff we hang on our walls. Rent for the apartment back on Earth. Stuff like that.

It should *not* be used to buy phasers, tricorders, uniforms, ship armaments, repairs, fuel, or any other Fleet equipment. That stuff is Federation issue. If your people are trained on their use and it is determined by higher-up that you need it, and it is available, then you get it. Simple as that. At the most you're dealing with some paperwork. Remember, while Starfleet is indeed an exploratory and diplomatic function first, it is also the military machine. Captain Picard did not pay for the Enterprise out of his pocket, nor does he need to "call in a favor" every time he needs to have his ship reloaded with torpedoes and fuel.

Gaining command of a bigger ship with a larger and better-trained crew should be earned by deeds, not credits or favors. That's how Kirk did it, that's how Picard did it, that's how they all did it. Excel, and you end up commanding the apple of the fleet's eye. Suck up the place, and you end up stuck on a barge.

Now, should there be an economy in the game? Absolutely there should be! But we need to be thinking outside the box on how to implement it. You're part of the military. You don't "buy" your ship and you don't pay out of your own pocket to have it refitted, rearmed, and refueled. However, the ships still need to be built before you can earn them.

Think about Warhammer's Public Quest system. Supporting the economy could be like one huge public quest, one that churns out the ships that you will eventually earn the command of. Start there and think it up.

[Varrangian]

I thought it was established that the Federations doesnt necessarily exclude private enterprise, though it certainly seems large scale enterprising is rare. I dont think its the lack of a desire for material gain...I think its a society that has gotten away from placing personal value on acquiring material excess. Material is required for existence, but in this future, people have desires and are allowed to meet them, but what has happened is a move away from a consumerism based society, people placing self value in their stuff. I think the fearful mentality of individual hording now because of fears, uncertainty and personal insecurity about the future, fear of not having enough to live, eat, medical care, etc for tomorrow, isnt present. Its the security provide through the society that promotes the type of mentality.

Essentially the state meets the needs of the people by providing mana to the masses, the masses take what they need knowing tomorrow it'll be there again...hording is pointless. No need to follow old primative ways of thinking, thinking designed to promote survival in times when one's future was less certain...when you were essentially on your own.

But lets not forget the concept of a utopia is likly mis-placed. think people still confuse Starfleet and the Federation...the utopia often used for the Feds is likly better representative of Starfleet.

Starfleet, like any other organzied state military, provides access to goods and services required to perform one's duties to its members at no cost to the memebers, but likly with some prerequistes....either way, you only earn that access by producing...producing with respect to performing one's duties.

Even in a possible Fed utopia, people wouldnt be forced to do menial jobs anymore than they are in a capitalist society. Just like a man who has bills and a familty to feed may find himself working at Wal-Mart not because he was directly forced to...but his circumstances certainly pushed him in that direction.

The same forces would apply in a utopian society where access to goods and services is based on one's contribution to production. If you arent working you arent acquiring a means for goods and services. If you dont get the manager position you try for the supervisor position, you dont get that try for the entry position, etc.

But at some point you'll need to work and you'll take what you can get....or you have a hard time eating, you dont have a roof of your own over your head, etc. No one makes you get a job scrubbing reactor ports...but you'll take it if its all you got...but if get a job, even a menial one in a utopian society, at least you dont live in poverty.

I normally do not take time to argue on forums as I find it can often lead to nowhere but in this case I feel as though I should interject. I must say that I have to agree with agree with cocoa-jin

This is an argument I've constantly had with my colleagues and peers regarding the Terran economy in Star Trek and from what we've gathered we have established that Earth has adopted a socialist mindset. When people hear this they often mistake it for communism which is incredibly dissimilar to the socialist philosophy.

Basically Socialism is closer to democracy in that they are both liberal ;multiple people (ideally everyone) are in charge and have a say in the distrobution of wealth and power in order to respectively adhere to the interests of the citizens. Communism, on the other hand, is closer to the republican party in that they are more conservative; fewer people (ideally one person) are in charge and make the decisions regarding the distrobution of the economy which leads to them adhering to their own interests. Communism originally began as the socialist party invisionmed by Karl Marx, however when Vladimir Lenin gained power the very meaning of the word changed when he replaced the government with a repressive regime that used socialist politics. That is why people often mistake Socialism and Communism.

What Verrangian doesn't seem to grasp is that, in Starfleet, these so called "economic motivators" are obsolete in a society where citizens who work hard and do their job well merit them anyway. In this utopian society, People actually get what they deserve instead of having corrupt officials keeping these priveledges for themselves to distribute among people and businesses of their choosing. As for employment, you literally get a job that you deserve, not in the sense that in the future there is some kind of aptitude test everyone takes which is run through a machine to determine the career you will have until you shed your mortal coil, but that you go through several years preperational schooling in your early years, you learn about the world and with your inate aptitudes and skills you will want to study (as you would if you were in college or university) for a career choice suited for you. Also the fact that the population of earth is halved aids in solving the dilemna of unemployment.

Furthermore the whole directive of a perfect socialist order is that it creates a classless society. Everyone is equal so everyone is granted with everything they are entitled to according to the charter of human rights (food, shelter, etc.), anything else you gain is merited through hard work. So because of the removal of desire for material wealth, corruption grinds to a halt, rendering coverups and dishonesty unecessary. At the point in time that TNG takes place there are so many things that people just never need to think about regarding envy or jelousy. Through the generations the whole mindset would have disapeared.

Are there people who are unhappy in Star Trek? It would be abolutely impossible if there weren't, however they wouldn't be unhappy for entirely the same reasons we would be today. Their sadness would revolve more around subjects regarding an abscence of love, or perhaps current events, but they wouldn't be obsessing over whetther or not somebody at work has been giving him the short end of the stick or if they are going to be fired. In Star Trek you can actually live the life you want.

This will be my last post on the subject.

Adaman you were fine with your argument until you used the words - Utopian, and classless.

From Merriam Webster Online
Utopia
1: an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
3: an impractical scheme for social improvement

Though number one is technically the only true definition of Utopia (It is a word invented by Sir Thomas Moore and literally means "No Place"). I know both you and Cocoa-Jin will never accept that definition. Likewise you both will I'm sure not accept definition three. This leaves definition two "perfection" being the key word to refer to in this definition.

You cannot achieve perfection most notably in social conditions. A classless society cannot exist if there is a scarcity of anything. Even if the Federation has unlimited material resources for the basics and necessities we can all agree a "real" Federation cannot give everyone everything they want. Meaning if even one person wants to have Picard's job (we see throughout TNG several people who want his job) there will be divisions. While not class in the economic sense it still creates a class structured society.

Cocoa-Jin what you described is not a Utopia, it is a socialist society that does not have to worry about limited resources. It is easy to provide the basics for everyone when there is no scarcity of materials. It has not achieved perfection and especially not in terms of social conditions. Social conditions are not just material items. Jealousy will exist as long as there is some form of competition for something limited, in Trek's case it the limited resource may not be material items but it certainly shows up in competition for jobs. Heck look at Kirk's jealousy in TMP because he wants what Decker has - the Enterprise.

Adaman -

As for employment, you literally get a job that you deserve, not in the sense that in the future there is some kind of aptitude test everyone takes which is run through a machine to determine the career you will have until you shed your mortal coil, but that you go through several years preperational schooling in your early years, you learn about the world and with your inate aptitudes and skills you will want to study (as you would if you were in college or university) for a career choice suited for you.

This is what worries me the most. There is no freedom in this world you are describing. I have no choice in my future. If I'm deemed to only be qualified to do the 25th century equivalent of working at McDonald's then there is never a hope or a chance that I can change that - that I can actually "better myself" to use the term that so many of you have.

In my reality I'm in grad school and working as an educator. I got here by starting my own business making it a success financially but realizing that the money was not rewarding for me. As masochistic as it might sound I enjoy teaching, I enjoy grading and while I make far less money I reap greater reward. Now in your world I wouldn't be able to change my job, my happiness would be pre-determined by a program. I'm sorry, but I will never put my happiness in the hands of a program.

And yes I'm fully aware of the differences between Marxian theory and Communism. I'm a Historian I've read Marx more times than most can imagine. I specialize in Soviet era Russian history so I'm also well versed in what Lenin, Stalin and Trotsky wrote about Communism. I've also read the original distopia "We" in the original Russian. None of this is a subject I've not considered or am unfamiliar with.

[Nasedo]

Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that.

found this Quote on this site http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cate...ar_Trek_series

[SelorKiith]

found this Quote on this site http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cate...ar_Trek_series

But that has been proven wrong on many occasions in TNG and DS9 where it has been explicitly stated that the Federation has something they call a "Credit" mostly in the Episode about the Barzan Wormhole where it should be sold...

[Nasedo]

But that has been proven wrong on many occasions in TNG and DS9 where it has been explicitly stated that the Federation has something they call a "Credit" mostly in the Episode about the Barzan Wormhole where it should be sold...

we have no say in it... only people who has say is Gene and the Writers, its there storys

[Interdictor]

we have no say in it... only people who has say is Gene and the Writers, its there storys
The Federation credit IS canon - as per the TV shows. What Gene was referencing was probably "cash". The Federation credit is not cash - but probably a sort of "resource allowance" provided to citizens.

[SelorKiith]

We do not you're right... but just go search at Memory Alpha for the Federation Credit there you got a list with Episodes where the Credit is mentioned somehow... so actually... the Credit IS canon...

[Varrangian]

Okay since the question eneds to be answered for anything outside of TOS, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs) is the answer. Start at roughly 6:43 and watch. Doesn't include it all, but it includes a lot,a nd I am sure Star Trek Mistakes 2/5 and 3/5 include more.

we have no say in it... only people who has say is Gene and the Writers, its there storys


Did you watch any of the video linked above? Much of that was done while Roddenberry was still alive too. So we may have "no say in it", but they clearly didn't believe it either. Roddenberry broke his own rules time and again, just like Lucas has broken "cannon" in his work.

[Nasedo]

Did you watch any of the video linked above? Much of that was done while Roddenberry was still alive too. So we may have "no say in it", but they clearly didn't believe it either. Roddenberry broke his own rules time and again, just like Lucas has broken "cannon" in his work.

gene did do that but at the end Gene got rid of money and said and thats pretty much how it was for TNg DS9 and Voy...and the writers keeped with it

[RandomRedshirt]

If STO has no credits, then how will the gold vendors make their money to pay for their food, clothing, medicine and their kid's college tuition?

Won't someone please think of the gold vendors?

I'd miss all that excess spam in my in-game email if they were to go away!

[SelorKiith]

gene did do that but at the end Gene got rid of money and said and thats pretty much how it was for TNg DS9 and Voy...and the writers keeped with it

They didn't... TNG had the Credit, DS9 had the Credit and even Voyager had it on there First Episode...
did you even bother to read the most comments here?

[Varrangian]

gene did do that but at the end Gene got rid of money and said and thats pretty much how it was for TNg DS9 and Voy...and the writers keeped with it

No they didn't. Watch the videos they clearly show TNG episodes where "money", in one nebulous form or another, is mentioned. DS9 has instances as well... Voyager... Voyager is in the Delta quadrant and they are forced to use trade and barter.

[Nasedo]

They didn't...
did you even bother to read the most comments here?

i made this topic friend, i read all of them up to page 18 or 19.. i think this topic should be close

No they didn't. Watch the videos they clearly show TNG episodes where "money", in one nebulous form or another, is mentioned. DS9 has instances as well... Voyager... Voyager is in the Delta quadrant and they are forced to use trade and barter.

like i said this topic should be close everyone fights over dumb stuff, i shouldnt have made this topic

[SelorKiith]

i made this topic friend, i read all of them up to page 18 or 19.. i think this topic should be close

Wether you made it or not... either you don't bother to read the most comments or you just simply ignoring them... and I'm not your friend...
Credit is canon... no matter what you say... or want to believe...

[lordoffiling]

There's another facet to that you have to consider. Gene, you see, was nuts. By the time the motion pictures started being made and that quote where he said "no money" happened, most of the industry was ignoring him. He was against everything anyone came up with, accepting only his own ideas as being worthy of Star Trek.

And, when they asked him, "OK, so what do you want to do with it?" He would reply with a movie idea he had in which Kirk and the rest of the Enterprise crew went back in time to save JFK from being shot. Every single Star Trek movie that was made (besides the first), he'd proclaim that he hated it, that it was trash, and that his Save JFK movie would be better.

(The only exception to the rule was The Voyage Home. He said that one was all right, but he always added the rider, "But a much *better* movie about time travel would be..." and he'd be right back on the Save JFK thing again.)

Remember, the idea of Federation Credits came up in The Original Series, when he was still in charge of both Star Trek and his own mental faculties.

[Varrangian]

i made this topic friend, i read all of them up to page 18 or 19.. i think this topic should be close



like i said this topic should be close everyone fights over dumb stuff, i shouldnt have made this topic

Look you made the topic, but it is a public form. People disagree with you and give you examples where Trek has broken this rule, even in TNG, DS9 and Voyager... now there are two choices. You can ignore this or you can synthesis the information and make an educated decision based on all the information presented to you.

I'm not saying we ignore by Roddenberry said, but we must also remember that Trek (and Roddenberry himself) often ignored these "rules". In order to create a game that is true to Trek it must be true to both sides of the equation.

[Nasedo]

Wether you made it or not... either you don't bother to read the most comments or you just simply ignoring them... and I'm not your friend...
Credit is canon... no matter what you say... or want to believe...

18 page is most of them

/close please

[Nerdock]

one word: latinum

[Captain_Intrepid]

I think perhaps that the term "credit" has thrown everyone away from it's original meaning.

"Even within the Federation there is a sense of credits: transporter credits and replicator credits."

A credit isn't always a unit of currency, for instance if I'm in school and I have a project due, I get credit for turning it in on time. A credit in this sense is just an acknowledgement of work I have completed. Try this wording and see if it seems a little better...

Transporter Privileges or Replicator Privileges....:)

Gozer

/agreed
Captain Sisko used to use all of his Transporter credits when he was in Star Fleet Accademy to go home for supper (he was homesick for his father's cooking at the resturant).

[Nasedo]

/agreed
Captain Sisko used to use all of his Transporter credits when he was in Star Fleet Accademy to go home for supper (he was homesick for his father's cooking at the resturant).

yup everyone knows that