Keeping the small details

[Anichent]

I know that things seen or heard in shows and movies are the only thing developers really have a comittment to getting right, but there are things one can derive from the shows that many pass over but answer many questions about Star Trek at the time of the Dominion War and, although these become flexible because of the 40 year gap, they are still very relavent and there is limits to the flexibility:

For example:

1) Starfleet has over 500 starbases, outposts and other military installations in, around and beyond Federation space.

2) There are only 3 Starbases under Federation control that are larger than DS9, they are: Starbase 74 (seen in "11001001"), Earth Spacedock (Seen in Star Trek: the search for Spock), and Starbase 84 (seen in "Phantasms").

3) The Federation spans more than 8,000 light years, with around 180 Major Member worlds (but less than 180 member species, since Cestus III and Alpha Centuri are both Human inhabited worlds). There are also thousands of colonies, and sparsely population worlds under the Federation banner. There are also colonies, such as New Sydney, which are not part of the Federation in any way although it was colonized by humans.

4) The Federation fleet was likely no more than 3000 military (USS/NCC) ships, similar to the Kilngon Empire, and the Cardassian Union likely had no more than 1600 military ships.

5) After 20 years of service, a ship would likely either be phased out by a newer class (such as with what happened to the Constellation, Constitution, Daedalus, Hokule'a and possibly with the Curry, Miranda and Excelsior by 1409), or experience extensive refiting.

All this information is not clearly said in shows and movies, for the most part, but can be found within the shows and movies.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Industry/Industry1.html

I found this website and it explains much of my 5 points, with reference to episodes and movies, and with quotes. I feel this information could be useful to the devs and so I urge them to also search the internet for fan conclusions that can be properly refrenced from shows, especially because it gets some of the work done at no cost :p

Also for anyone curious about such things, like I was when I found this page, check it out :)

Edit: Also, if anyone has any other interesting facts that can be derived from episodes and movies, or websites which do so post them here for those of us who are curious, and perhaps for the devs to see and use if they like:cool:

[LordDave]

Point 3 has an extra 0 in it. :P

I should be 8,000 not 80,000.

[Anichent]

Point 3 has an extra 0 in it. :P

I should be 8,000 not 80,000.

Thanks, I fixed it :)

[47Wasps]

I haven't anything to add at the moment,except that link leads to a very in-depth article :)

[Sloan_S31]

Completely agree with the post. In fact, it's by taking the input of this kind of info that will make this game a more and more authentic Star Trek experience, which is what I believe most Trek fans want to be paying for. I don't speak for the casual MMO crowd, however.

I'm always one to strictly adhere to canon but in this case, I believe some small flexibility is necessary in addition to Cryptic's artistic creativity.

The number of Spacedock-type starbases for instance. Now, Federation space is HUGE and I believe it is plausible for Starfleet to deploy many more bases of this type or of comparable size in order to extend:
1- Fleet capacity
2- Range of Influence
3- Area of Protection

In a post-Dominion war era, an expansion in strength and influence would no doubt be in order, after recovering from their initial losses of course.

[Anichent]

I know people have talked about how it is unfair that Klingons have so many weapons, so I offer a real Federation solution, the KaBar: a standard issue combat survival knife. It is 32.5 cm (12.8 in) and is standard equipment in survival gear and in emergency weapons caches aboard starships. Captain Kathryn Janeway uses one in the Star Trek: Voyager episode "Macrocosm".

[Tain]

You make a lot of assumptions that I hate to say are probably completely wrong. Especially the 20 year ship life. Thats absurdly short. The United States has Bomber aircraft still in service that are well over 30 years old currently for example. Naval ships also stay in service for many decades depending on their role. The aircraft carrier USS Nimitz for example, has been in active service for 34 years and is still going strong. This is all within an atmosphere that is vulnerable to oxidation and other corrosive processes that something operating in space would be immune too. A large starship, counting refits, could have a service life of centuries, 20 years is pretty ridiculous. It would also be horribly costly and inefficient to keep manufacturing new ships ever few decades that themselves take years to construct; the federation would hardly have any ships in space!

[-Brett-]

2) There are only 3 Starbases under Federation control that are larger than DS9, they are: Starbase 74 (seen in "11001001"), Earth Spacedock (Seen in Star Trek: the search for Spock), and Starbase 84 (seen in "Phantasms").

Because we've seen every one of those 500 bases and know their dimensions? What makes you think those three are the only bases of that type?

3) The Federation spans more than 8,000 light years, with around 180 Major Member worlds (but less than 180 member species, since Cestus III and Alpha Centuri are both Human inhabited worlds). There are also thousands of colonies, and sparsely population worlds under the Federation banner. There are also colonies, such as New Sydney, which are not part of the Federation in any way although it was colonized by humans.

As I recall, the number was 150, not 180. It could have gone up to that since then, but that's the only "canon" number we've got.

4) The Federation fleet was likely no more than 3000 military (USS/NCC) ships, similar to the Kilngon Empire, and the Cardassian Union likely had no more than 1600 military ships.

Pure speculation.

5) After 20 years of service, a ship would likely either be phased out by a newer class (such as with what happened to the Constellation, Constitution, Daedalus, Hokule'a and possibly with the Curry, Miranda and Excelsior by 1409), or experience extensive refiting.

20 is a very small number. The Excelsior, Miranda and Oberth classes have been around far longer than that.

All this information is not clearly said in shows and movies, for the most part, but can be found within the shows and movies.

http://www.stardestroyer.net

That would explain it.

For one thing, that's a Star Wars fan site. For another, he doesn't know Star Wars lore very well, much less Trek.

[startrekrpg.com]

I disagree on the 20 year theory. The Federation was likely not continuing to mass produce Excelsior class starships in favour of smaller, more maneuverable ships during the dominion war and after Wolf 359 and Borg encounters. Deep space exploratory vessels probably took a back burner -- however, in DS9 you see a large number of Excelsior class starships. While it is agreeable that they probably underwent some retrofitting (like the Lakota) it is unlikely that Starfleet would have decommissioned them for several years in order to overhaul them.
Starships would certainly be in service for much longer than 20 years. Perhaps proto-types are withdrawn, or 'first-off the line' models (such as the Enterprise NCC 1701), especially as technologies advanced rapidly - but there is no reason to decomission a Galaxy Class starship 20 years after service. That's a lot of wasted materials (not to mention potential). Remember, you've still got deep-space missions, transports, medical ships, flagships (for Admirals), ect... Older ships might have their missions adjusted but not decomissioned - especially when some of the vessels take years to build -- nevermind develop.
Though I would agree that some starships would be decommissioned after 20 years - depending on their condition, tour of duty, and investment (for example, the Stargazer was decommissioned from active duty approximately 20 years after Picard served aboard - however it was "well used" and we don't know how long it had already been in service for).

[k.mpok]

4) The Federation fleet was likely no more than 3000 military (USS/NCC) ships, similar to the Kilngon Empire, and the Cardassian Union likely had no more than 1600 military ships.

1) The Federation ships where not labeled as military ships but rather escorts, exploration, scientific, etc vessels. Not until the Sov and Defient did they make ships special built for military combat (primary purpose)

2) I would disagree also on the Klingon ship count as the Klingons have been in space far longer then the humans and are known to favor numerial superior numbers, stealth, speed, and firepower to larger defensive ships.


5) After 20 years of service, a ship would likely either be phased out by a newer class (such as with what happened to the Constellation, Constitution, Daedalus, Hokule'a and possibly with the Curry, Miranda and Excelsior by 1409), or experience extensive refiting.
The Klingon Bird OF Prey, actually B'Rel class has been in service for well over 100 years.
The D-7 battle cruiser has been around since atleast 2267 as some were traded to the Romulans.

While Federation ships are usually retired after 100 years, having been performing relatively easy missions for the last 50 years, Klingon vessels can still be found on the frontlines after a century, as can be shown by the Klingons main two vessels, the B'rel Class Bird of Prey and the K'Tinga Class (which is itself a refit of the much older D7, which has now been retired as of the late 2400 century, 2370s if I remember correctly.)






However I do agree that it is the details of the ST universe that will cause STO to rise (keeping to what has made ST the name we all know and love) or fall (lack of ST detail/feel).

[Anichent]

I wasn't saying ships are decomissioned after twenty years, I was merely saying that in around 20 year intervals ship classes likely undergo refiting so as to upgrade their systems, or are decided to be not worth upgrading. Which is not hard since the process would last under a year, and there are not "thousands" of each ship type, merely hundreds which could easily be refitted thanks to the amount of bases within the Federation.

Second, what I say about 20 year intervals has nothing to do with the Klingon fleet, although I'm sure the BoP is also refitted and not running on hundred year old technology.

For those of you who disagree with some of my first post, keep in mind it is not my opinion, but information from the site I provided. The site provides quotes, in show references, so please check the actual site before refuting my first post.

Disagreeing with my first post BEFORE reading the explination found on the site is foolish. However, if you read the site and still disagree, then that is your perogative :)

OH, and for those who would say that the Excelsiors were mass produced in the Dominion War, I find it highly unlikely. Smaller ships with smaller crews and more/stronger weapons, such as the Saber, Akira, Defiant, and Intrepid classes would be more likely to have been mass produced. Any Mirandas and Excelsiors would simply be ships that were built many years earlier and are simply still in service.

Finally, I agree. I believe STO should create more than 3 Starbases larger than DS9. I believe the site I provided explains that it was said somewhere on DS9 that there were only 3 Federation Starbases larger than DS9, but there is no reason that STO has to keep it that way. I too think that there should be many large Starbases throughout the Federation

[Tain]

You are also completely ignoring existing infrastructure as it relates to ship production. Sabers, Akiras, Defiant, etc. Are all extremely new designs and are not going to have the existing extensive production infrastructure to make use of. Ship designs that have been produced for over a hundred years would.

Fighter planes are a good example. Take the F-22. Newest US fighter aircraft. Fast, stealth, in all regards better than anything else the US has. Its also the most complex, expensive, and hardest to produce. Older designs are still purchased and produced in far higher numbers.

Its the same with ships. Take attack submarines. Seawolf class SSNs were far more advanced than any other on the seas. The Los Angeles class, which is an older, cheaper design that fills the same role is still produced far more often that the more advanced Seawolf.

An Akira class starship, for example, is extremely new. Its going to be more expensive, longer to construct, and come in far fewer numbers than say, an Excelsior class starship which has over a hundred years of production infrastructure and knowhow behind it. Tell me, when you are fighting a war with an enemy that uses swarms of ships, which would you opt for? Advanced starships that come in few numbers, but with a technological edge, or competent starships of a proven design that can come in FAR greater numbers?

As in the real world, the second option is the correct one.

[Anichent]

You are also completely ignoring existing infrastructure as it relates to ship production. Sabers, Akiras, Defiant, etc. Are all extremely new designs and are not going to have the existing extensive production infrastructure to make use of. Ship designs that have been produced for over a hundred years would.

Fighter planes are a good example. Take the F-22. Newest US fighter aircraft. Fast, stealth, in all regards better than anything else the US has. Its also the most complex, expensive, and hardest to produce. Older designs are still purchased and produced in far higher numbers.

Its the same with ships. Take attack submarines. Seawolf class SSNs were far more advanced than any other on the seas. The Los Angeles class, which is an older, cheaper design that fills the same role is still produced far more often that the more advanced Seawolf.

An Akira class starship, for example, is extremely new. Its going to be more expensive, longer to construct, and come in far fewer numbers than say, an Excelsior class starship which has over a hundred years of production infrastructure and knowhow behind it. Tell me, when you are fighting a war with an enemy that uses swarms of ships, which would you opt for? Advanced starships that come in few numbers, but with a technological edge, or competent starships of a proven design that can come in FAR greater numbers?

As in the real world, the second option is the correct one.

With your explination you are ignoring something, but let me put it simply. If you are at war with an enemy which uses swarms of ships, are you going to build large ships which take hundreds of cremen to operate(Excelsior), or small ships which by the fact that they are 1/4 of the size at least and take an extremely smaller crew (Saber and Defiant) are faster to produce, risk less lives, and are more manuverable against swarms of smaller ships.

[Tain]

With your explination you are ignoring something, but let me put it simply. If you are at war with an enemy which uses swarms of ships, are you going to build large ships which take hundreds of cremen to operate(Excelsior), or small ships which by the fact that they are 1/4 of the size at least and take an extremely smaller crew (Saber and Defiant) are faster to produce, risk less lives, and are more manuverable against swarms of smaller ships.

And you are ignoring the fact that the Saber and Defiant are not the only low-crew ship types around. Hello Miranda class! Guess which type was more numerous in DS9?


I used the Akira as an example because its a rough approximation, both in size and potential roles, to Excelsior. My point applies however to all federation size categories. A Nova class can be passed over for more Oberths. A Defiant, Sabre or Intrepid can be passed over for more Mirandas. an Akira or Steamrunner can be passed over for Excelsiors. ALL Federation starships can operate with minimal crewing, and have been shown to be able to since TOS. Do not confuse crew capacity for crew requirements. Crew numbers shouldn't even be an issue regardless of size. Its all about getting the most bang for your buck, and you don't do that by putting all your eggs in one basket. You dump the eggs out, stick phasers on them and hurl them at the Jem'hadar!