Grind Reduction Proposal

[LordDave]

We all know that one of the worst things in the world is Grind. We all hate it, but it's necessary in all MMO games.

We also know that STO will focus around a "mission" or episode rather then just random quests that you pick up from people, though I'm sure there will be some of that too.

So, what do you do when you're not good enough to head over to sector 215, but ran out of missions in sector 214?
Contact Starfleet. They can then give you a randomly generated patterned mission like go (location) and (Verb) (Number) of (items/people/anomalies).

Hey, it beats just blasting orion pirates until you "level".

[doam]

Uh... 42?


I think I missed the point.

[Urantia]

The less of a grind the better. I would vote for any proposal where grinding is reduced as long as their is content to replace it. However, I admit with all the years of grinding I have done (be it real or imaginary) I do like some grinding...if anything to refine my skills...especially at the beginning of a game. One thing I will not tolerate though is the classic back and forth missions (like subspace communication was never invented).

[Denzen]

umm we already start as 'captains' you are just lucky you're not cleaning my plasma conduits. Bring on the grind, I'm here to stay :P

Luvvit !

:eek:

if it was upto the anti-grind crowd Starfleet would fill the sectors with transporter relay posts and even convoy missions and flying around and fighting would be pointless, we;d just start mass producing B4s and that would be the end of the world as we know it, but I feel fine.

D

[TruthSeer]

We all know that one of the worst things in the world is Grind. We all hate it, but it's necessary in all MMO games.

We also know that STO will focus around a "mission" or episode rather then just random quests that you pick up from people, though I'm sure there will be some of that too.

So, what do you do when you're not good enough to head over to sector 215, but ran out of missions in sector 214?
Contact Starfleet. They can then give you a randomly generated patterned mission like go (location) and (Verb) (Number) of (items/people/anomalies).

Hey, it beats just blasting orion pirates until you "level".

You mean like Newspaper missions in City of Heroes or the cell phone missions in the Matrix Online? It would be a really good idea. Plus missions like those are good if you don't have time or don't want to get into a new story arc but still want to do missions.

[indigowhale345]

Right so, you're basically just hoping for randomly generated missions? I'm all for that, lousy as random missions are in most games, they also often serve a useful purpose and change from the same old scripted missions, if not also offering useful rewards.

That said, I certainly hope we never see any situations where we can't deal with the "next" sector because we need to grind out the next "level", be it skill, rank, ship tier, whatever. That's just terrible design in my opinion.

Tabula Rasa did it excellently, while you were running missions in zone X, you could also pull missions in zone Y and Z, hunt the mobs there, even while they were a few levels higher, and even CPs in zone W would still be worthwhile. TR doesn't have random missions, but it didn't need them either, as there were more than enough regular missions to level on from 1-50, and CP grinding was fun itself.

Anarchy Online didn't do it too badly either, aside from the horrid grinding factor, but there were plenty of places to find mobs to level on, even if no one ever actually looked for anything besides giant rocks to level on. And it also offered random missions scalable up and down in difficulty.

But honestly there should be lots of ways to 'level'. Maybe its hunting pirates or Klingons, or maybe its doing missions, random or scripted, or maybe its exploring, or maybe its studying strange phenomenon, or maybe its influencing alien cultures through means diplomatic or otherwise. PVP should be a way to advance as well, for those who prefer that. If they don't make the options diverse enough and varied enough and deep enough, then its going to be a shallow game. And Star Trek has excellent potential for depth, so it would be a sad thing.

Grinding really isn't a bad thing, as long as its part of making taco shells. In games though, what they need to avoid is boredom, and that comes from doing the same thing over and over, and over. The game needs variety, depth, and lots of stuff to do, not just at every "level" but also everywhere you go.

[SIMONLEV]

I dont see any bad sides to this idea. If Cryptic is creating this so called infinate galaxy it makes sense. Maybe

even something that gives u the option of what kind of distance u might want. I dont want to get a random

quest 60minutes away so there has to be a bit of a preference i think. Unless youre going to all out random .. then i say good day to you sir lol:D

[Denzen]

I hope there are no limits on what mission s u can take and where u can go based on levle, only based on intelligence, this is also why I am a big fan of serious death penalties, but if you pull em off you should get major prestiege... yes, I am pushing the idea of prestiege outside of skills :D boolyah

[Sorbek]

I know I'm in the minority when I say that I actually enjoy some grinding. I enjoy going after npc's that are suppose to be more powerful than me, or out number me and end up winning.

I for one hope there will be areas out near the PVP area but not quite there that you must pass through that have Enemy ships to hunt down and destroy, disable or steal technology from.

I am the guy you will probably see taking a tricked out federation runabout and seeing if I can outmanuever, outsmart, and destroy a Vor'cha class attack cruiser. Its a challenge and I like challenges.

When the game is too easy people lose interest a lot faster I think. I didn't play EQ for 7 years because it was easy.....I played because me and a small elite group of 7-8 players would take down NPCs that were taking 40-50 average/good players to kill. Granted all of our group were Marines, so we were diciplined and we listen well which is 90% of a good raid team.

[Denzen]

I'm with you, I like the grind, especially when its a paart of the story like travelling to a distant system, surely starfleet could ask u or hint at how long the mission will take b4 u begin so u don't start then have to log, that would suck, but too weak a death and no grind makes denzen something something :D

[Varrangian]

While I am all for your suggestion LordDave. I believe the real issue is two fold...

First many people tend to skip the prescribed "story arch" quests/missions in games. For various reasons the rush to hit whatever progression cap there is. Some of these people then turn around and decry the grind that they have subjected themselves to. A good example of this is post NGE SWG's Legacy quest. It could take you from level 1 to roughly level 50 if you followed it.

This brings me to the second issue at hand. Horrible quests/missions - one of the reasons people turn away from these "story arch" missions is because developers have proven over and over again that they are not writers. Bland uninteresting stories, mixed with repetitive game play does not endear players to finish these missions. I'm talking writing that makes the first season of TNG look like Shakespeare...

Again, I'm all for your suggestion, and I honestly don't have a real solution to the above problems, but I think it is important to address the real issue at hand when it comes to "grind".

[evan.is.weyoun]

This sounds like a great idea to me, as I'm generally that guy, haha. But I'm thinking STO will have a few areas you can choose from to quest in, at least that's the way most MMOs lean towards.

Btw, 100th post woot :)

[Stryklone]

First, have enough scripted quests to allow any player to level in his chosen playstyle (i.e., explore, survey, combat) without having to repeat any quests. That needs to apply for every level, lowest through highest. Once that is designed in the game then having random-generated quests gets a big thumbs-up. Sometimes it's nice to be able to pop in and do something which doesn't force one into a huge story arc! I hope the devs avoid the temptation to get lazy with scripted if randoms are around.

If grind is doing something over and over, let people do it if they wish. Please give me the option to not do it. I quit a MMO over the weekend because of forced grinding.

Stryklone
========

[Zandtar]

You mean like Newspaper missions in City of Heroes or the cell phone missions in the Matrix Online? It would be a really good idea. Plus missions like those are good if you don't have time or don't want to get into a new story arc but still want to do missions.

I'm hoping for something along those lines as well. Except that the 'random' or 'instant' type of missions are a little more plentiful in variety then what was in City of Heroes. Best kind of grinding is when you don't realize you're doing it.

[Mystica.Shadowheart]

I am the guy you will probably see taking a tricked out federation runabout and seeing if I can outmanuever, outsmart, and destroy a Vor'cha class attack cruiser. Its a challenge and I like challenges.

Good luck with that.

I will probably be the guy sitting in the cloaked Defiant eating popcorn & enjoing runabout-fireworks ;)

[marscentral]

Best kind of grinding is when you don't realize you're doing it.

I think this is the basic point. If it is entertaining, it isn't a grind. If you're verbing x nouns just to get something so that you can move on to something more interesting, that's a grind. If you're verbing y nouns because it's fun, that isn't a grind.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

The best way (IMO) to reduce, if not eliminate, "grind" is to make the basic mechanics of gameplay — particularly the most repetitive stuff — really, really fun. If the very process of doing the same thing over and over and over again is fun as hell, where's the grind?

[Awarkle]

as long as we dont get the same 5 mission types just packaged in a different way from lvl 1 to when the max level is.

i wont mind. personally im more a group player than a solo mission hunter which a lot of games have turned into.

as for grind as long as i can reach maximum level within about 2 weeks of playing i wont mind the fun usually starts after you hit cap level anyways.

Unless they implement stuff from lower levels to get involved in then i wont mind.

[JadeEngima]

as long as we dont get the same 5 mission types just packaged in a different way from lvl 1 to when the max level is.

i wont mind. personally im more a group player than a solo mission hunter which a lot of games have turned into.

as for grind as long as i can reach maximum level within about 2 weeks of playing i wont mind the fun usually starts after you hit cap level anyways.

Unless they implement stuff from lower levels to get involved in then i wont mind.

You honestly think the fun starts after you reach the maximum level? Seriously?

The fun with MMORPG's, my young friend, is in the community and camaraderie, not the grind or the race some people assume exists to the maximum level. Those who do the mad dash to the top level seriously miss the point, as well as a great deal of the enjoyment, and only deprive themselves of the real game.

A shame, and kinda sad actually.

[Sorayn]

Spot on agree Jade!

What good is it to max. level in three days and clear all the content? Funny enough the same people that do that, complain that there isn't enough content, the game is boring etc. .....

In my eyes it's about the the path to max. level. The fun playing with other people, exploring, rping, ot doing whatever you like apart from "hardcore-i wanna be the first to max level"- grinding.

[0wl]

True enough i always hated the fact that in some cases you already leveled before you even knew it!

[Varrangian]

You honestly think the fun starts after you reach the maximum level? Seriously?

The fun with MMORPG's, my young friend, is in the community and camaraderie, not the grind or the race some people assume exists to the maximum level. Those who do the mad dash to the top level seriously miss the point, as well as a great deal of the enjoyment, and only deprive themselves of the real game.

A shame, and kinda sad actually.

While I will not disagree with you, as I'm a "its the journey not the destination" kind myself. I do think to each their own. If someone enjoys the thrill of the mad dash so be it.

[joriandrake]

the best grind removal would be if there would be ony XP for finished missions like in pnp and DDO

This would also help the players to really experience the surrounding world

[Flatfingers]

I usually don't care much for grinding-behavior when I play an online game, but I would agree with those who've pointed out that it's a viable form of fun for some people. Their entertainment comes from the pleasure of simple, repetitive action (as noted in Liz Lawley's essay "In Praise of the Grind (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/08/in_praise_of_th.html)" at Terra Nova in 2006), rather than from perceptive planning or relationship navigation. Simple repetitive action may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a valid kind of fun. As such, it's not unreasonable that MMORPGs offer some content to enable that kind of fun.

The problem IMO comes when it's the only kind of fun that gets content, because it's not the only valid form of fun. Gameplay that challenges a gamer's head or heart has business value in a MMORPG as well as gameplay that exercises one's fast-twitch muscles. A character-driven, persistent-world game like a MMORPG is probably going to be so large that it needs to offer content that satisfies all these different styles of fun.

With that philosophy of design in mind, what about the idea that different gameplay behaviors can each lead to some desirable form of advancement in Star Trek Online?

I'm just going to rattle off a quick idea here; feel free to beat it up. Suppose we agree that there are three kinds of fun that might fit in a Star Trek MMORPG: acting, thinking, and relating. (Side note: I came up with those before realizing that they're a pretty neat fit for the characters of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy.)

What if there were advancement paths in STO for each of these approaches to problem-solving, or perhaps for combinations of them?

Acting: Tactical
Thinking: Science
Relating: (Ship's Counselor)
Acting-Thinking: Engineering
Acting-Relating: Medical
Thinking-Relating: (Diplomatic Corps)
Acting-Thinking-Relating: Command

(Obviously this is Federation-specific; other factions would offer other advancement paths.)

A chart like this suggests to me that it would actually be OK for most Tactical-related gameplay to be grindy, as long as the gameplay related to other departments is designed to reward other styles of play. For example, maybe advancing in the Engineering department calls for a mixture of gameplay activities, from simple, fast-paced "fix-it" situations to more in-depth "build-it" challenges that require and reward ingenuity. (That sounds like Star Trek-style Engineering to me!)

In this way, those who find that grinding can sometimes or often be a pleasant way to spend some game time can get what they're looking for in Star Trek Online, while those who prefer more intellectually or emotionally engaging kinds of content can also advance in the gameworld in the ways that they enjoy the most.

Comments?

(Another note: I actually consider acting, thinking, and relating to be three of the four major styles of problem-solving: Persistence, Perception, and Persuasion, respectively, with Power as the other style. I discuss this idea more in my Persistence vs. Perception (http://flatfingers-theory.blogspot.com/2007/12/persistence-vs-perception.html) essays from 2007.)

--Flatfingers

[Kinneas]

umm we already start as 'captains' you are just lucky you're not cleaning my plasma conduits. Bring on the grind, I'm here to stay :P

Luvvit !

:eek:

if it was upto the anti-grind crowd Starfleet would fill the sectors with transporter relay posts and even convoy missions and flying around and fighting would be pointless, we;d just start mass producing B4s and that would be the end of the world as we know it, but I feel fine.

D

lol!

I voted for the 'cleaning plasma conduits' approach. Six months before you could even think about setting foot on your 'own' ship. :) Full simulation and you have to know how every inch works or you get no wings. "Buh-bye, here's your holodeck pass. "
---

--

- I agree that a MMO infrastructure can deliver a lot of different gameplay options.

I'm fond of there being a few major capital ships you could base on and get a full ship simulation experience while not on missions.

- The grind is heaven to some engineers who only want to work on simulated ships. Their 'baby'.

- Role-players/creative writers may also want ships/bases like that where they do not have to worry about the command level decisions and will work on a ship for the role play/simming aspect.

- Holodeck activities, creating custom holo programming.

- Galaxy wide tournaments, quadrant/sector tournaments, sporting events?

- training
-sight seeing?
-as always...exploring
-buying land and building personal structures on planets , building civilian ships?
-stock market?
- politics?
-movie making tools?
-personal logs (creative writing)
-gambling?
- RISA! Ooooh la la!? (please show credit card at the airlock)
- attend an conferences on Babel and elsewhere and listen to guest speakers?
- Wargames with allied empires?
-set ship to simulation mode and tinker?
-there will always be a war going on somewhere.
- slow cruises?
-learn how to slingshot to attempt to time travel ( 3 percent club )?
-continue training become a full master of engineering to be able to alter superstructures in create custom internal modules/systems?
- attempt to breech the great barriers?
- terraform?
-get into a bar fight?
- find a MUDD android?
-Check up on planets not visited since TOS?
- Visit an amusement planet?
-open a shop?
-go shopping?
-honor matches

[thefreshjedi]

Comments?
--Flatfingers


Flat, the only other thing I can think of is that some of us prefer a grind-style type of game at times when we are mindlessly attempting to reduce our daily frustrations (such as the Lawley essay from above). She brought up a bunch of interesting points, and one of which, which she didn't directly say it, nor would she admit it necessarily, but I think we each have our own ways of venting our frustrations, about life, about the things that bother us. Sometimes we do so directly, through adversarial communications, fighting, arguing, and taking it out on someone else.

Other times, I think we do it indirectly. Through drinking, eating, or other bad habits that effect us personally. Those types of behaviors are persistant-state phsychological factors in each of us, and we all have a tendancy toward one or another. Inhibitions aside, we choose the path of least resistance to feel a sense of resolve. Something that eludes us to believe that we've accomplished something, over and over. MMORPGs can cash in on this by creating puzzles, mini-quests, and other random generated events which enable us to take on minimal responsibility and get an immediate tangible reward.

Simpler games like Tetris, and other games with similar themes have the same effect. They are mindless ways to relax ourselves after a long day. Even when our days are not "long", but stressful in one way or another, it's nice to have a way to vent. Some people watch TV, some people play games, some people entertain themselves in other ways. Everyone has a vice. I would also think that this lends itself to gambling problems for some addicts that sit at a poker machine dropping endless amounts of money into them. Because it's mindless entertainment that stimulates the smallest portions of our brain into feeling some sort of sense of achievement, if minor.

I wonder if anyone has ever done a correlation research study on brain-patterns during mindless entertainment, to determine if they are anything similiar to what we experience if Alpha-state sleep, where the brain is just winding down, getting ready to fall into REM. Our synapses fire randomly trying to comfort the brain into sleep by expelling useless tidbits of information that are acquired throughout the day. I mean we know that the way we retrieve and store long-term memory is directly related to sleep patterns, and how much sleep we get...but I wonder if there is another correlation. That during our waking hours when we are "winding-down" that our brains are in fact attempting to store some of the more important aspects of our day into our long term-memmory, and the only way it can do this is by pacifying us with limited stimulus input, like "pulling weeds", "playing Tetris", or performing "random mindless missions"?


Curious...

-avery

[Stryklone]

the best grind removal would be if there would be ony XP for finished missions like in pnp and DDO

This would also help the players to really experience the surrounding world
I quit DDO because of the grind. As in any MMO, one must either solo or group on quests. DDO, without advanced solo content, meant advanced quests were all group. It became rare to find groups which didn't want to do the same few quests. And, in the very high levels, all the item quests were repetitive grinds.

So XP for only finished missions is fine, but it's not a grinding cure.

Stryklone
========

[Stryklone]

Simple repetitive action may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a valid kind of fun. As such, it's not unreasonable that MMORPGs offer some content to enable that kind of fun.
As you say, the problem comes in offering the other types of fun. If people find repetive action fun, there has yet to be a MMO which doesn't give them plenty of chances to do it.

With that philosophy of design in mind, what about the idea that different gameplay behaviors can each lead to some desirable form of advancement in Star Trek Online?
That's what I said in post #13 of this thread:
"First, have enough scripted quests to allow any player to level in his chosen playstyle (i.e., explore, survey, combat) without having to repeat any quests. That needs to apply for every level, lowest through highest."

After all, repeating a boring action is a grind. The trick is that we all find different things boring. If, for example, I were to like Medical and I have to Engineer to advance, engineering would be a grind for me even if it is the universe's most fascinating career for someone else. To allow a choice other than grinding, there have to be enough options for each allowed playstyle type to continue that playstyle throughout the game.

Stryklone
========

[Whitefyre]

Perhaps being able to use a holodeck to simulate a previous completed quest could be the answer. You could set the skill setting and change your profession.

For example Science Officer doing "Quest XA134" as a Medical Officer at skill level 15. This could help you "lvl up" your Medical experience instead of Science while taking an older quest at a different approach. This would reduce the "boredom" level and you could just skip the unnecessary text.

For a major "grind" approach you could do what Worf does and just run into the holodeck and start beating up the bad guys over and over again :D