Star Trek Online's Biggest Issue

[Xidane]

From what I've read in the FAQ and talk on the forums in general, STO has some serious issues that need to be addressed, primarily Factions.

Right now the Federation is composed of humans, and many other generic races, and the Klingons for some reason are now hostile and have their own very unrealistic set of Allies.


Federation
-Humans
-Generic

Klingon Empire
-Klingons
-Gorn
-Nausicans

PROBLEM

The Klingons and Gorn are so unlikely an alliance it makes me wonder what other lore blunders will arise in STO. Klingons are a highly aggressive invasive race, Gorn are a highly aggressive territorial race, the two are like mixing matter and antimatter, they can't be allies without a stabilizing factor like the Federation. The dev team placed them together based on first glance observations, Gorn are big and scary, hey...Klingons are big and scary too, let's make them team up, politically speaking it.... MAKES NO SENSE

Nausicans, once again, they're big and scary, but they're also a scattered mercenary race, you give them money and guns then get them to beat the crap out of people, either that or you get killed by them in a bar fight, they don't even have a fleet, so it MAKES NO SENSE! Think of them more as Ogres from Warhammer or Warcraft.

Hate to come off sounding like the Joker here, but in the grand scheme of things the 'Klingon Faction' as a whole.... MAKES NO SENSE.

-With Chancellor Martok and Warf at the top, they wouldn't war against the Federation
-Their allies are ridiculous....
-It's a lazy idea
-Next thing we know, Captain Janeway is going to be the new Borg Queen.

Factions should function as loosely forged alliances between races who have...

A: A Common enemy
B: Are at least on amicable terms
C: Don't fight over resources
D: Violent encounters are merely isolated incidents within their respective neutral zones,and are not condoned by either race's government.

Factions that war each other are the opposite of the above listed.

A: Are the enemies
B: Blood feuds such as those between Romulan and Klingon
C: Territorial and economic rivals, fighting for resources
D: Players gain recognition and requisition points for victories against the enemy faction and their races.

Players of the same faction can battle one another within respective neutral zones, but such battles will be treated as an isolated incident, thus will gain no requisition, and no progress whatsoever in their career, do it at your own discretion. Basically, it's a battle out of your own pocket.

Factions that should by all rights be in this game are...

FACTION I

-Federation (With it's various sub-races)
-Klingon
-Gorn
-Hydran

VS

FACTION II

-Romulans (Remans as optional race) (Combination of ships)
-Cardassians
-Lyrans
-Tholians

EXPANSION FACTION

-Dominion (Son'a as new leaders) (Fleet consists of Jem'hadar and Son'a ships)
-Breen
-ISC
-New race??

GALACTIC THREATS

Current - Borg
Expansion - Species 8472

Having factions like these gives the diverse universe that Star Trek is to players of all types.

-Great PvP, lots of different races and cultures to experience, strategically in combat, including ships and ground combat weapons.
- Tons of replay value as you explore not only the universe, but the people you have chosen to be.
- Diverse and unpredictable encounters are the very heart of Star Trek, the alliance system mentioned above provides that.
-Creativity and Diversity is the heart of Star Trek, you lose that...and it's not Star Trek anymore, keep that in mind

Sorry for the long post, I could have gone on quite a bit more, but that wouldn't be nice. Thanks for reading, and please post opinions, this is a game that many of us have waited years if not decades to become a reality, it's important that it doesn't get screwed up.

[47Wasps]

Hmm...
I see your point.
And i can't believe I've never considered it before.
But I think Cryptic will offer us an explanation for the Klingon alliances.
Prehaps the Gorn(for example) were in the path of Klingon expansion,and instead of conquering them,the Klingon High Council negotiated for them to be brought into the Empire?

[nicah64]

The thing with an mmo is that some lore must be expanded upon or sacrificed to bring the books/movies/episodes to life. Blizzard did a similar thing with world of warcraft, they introduced two factions, horde and alliance made up of now 5 different races, some of which didn't belong on the same side or had never been seen in a warcraft game before. It looks as if Cryptic is doing a similar thing and that is why they have set the game 30 years into the future, because in the future nothing is established and things are up in the air, hence they can come up with whatever story they like and add characters and factions or whatever to suit their story. I do like your idea of adding those previously seen races though, like the Lyrans, ISC and Hydrans. You could even throw the Mirak in there for good measure. I think we just have to trust Cryptic and hope they know what they are doing :D

[knightofhyrule730]

I'd hold off on calling the klingon federation war "stupid" for the time being. We have absolutely NO idea what the storyline is going to look like, and for all we know Martok and Worf will end up dead before the end of Crytpic's updates.

I'd say chill out and wait to see whats actually going on.

also, IMO, you cant change what cryptic wants to do...so either deal with it or go away.

[Xidane]

Hmm...
I see your point.
And i can't believe I've never considered it before.
But I think Cryptic will offer us an explanation for the Klingon alliances.
Prehaps the Gorn(for example) were in the path of Klingon expansion,and instead of conquering them,the Klingon High Council negotiated for them to be brought into the Empire?

Most likely they will, but as a Gorn fan, it would be pretty lame in my books for them to stick us as some Klingon sub-race. I can't picture the Gorn negotiating with the Klingons, given their xenophobic nature, but the Gorn do share a mutual hatred of Romulans, and fight them for territory too, so you could be right. I just would find it lazy on the Dev's part to not have a Gorn fleet/ground weapons/culture/storyline. All I know, is that it took some extraordinary circumstances to stop the Federation and Gorn from going to war, but as a result they learned to trust one another, sucks that they would lose that in this game, so wrong.

The Gorn have huge potential for an interesting exploration story, considering that their race existed on 3 separate worlds before they achieved space travel, none of which they are indigenous to. As well as exploring space, they could also be searching for the truth of how they came to be, it could very well tie into other race's story archetypes, leading to a future galactic plot &/or threat.

Too much potential being wasted here imo.

[phifur]

I don't know if you read (The path to 2409 ) storyline. I know what you mean about gorns and klingons being together at the time of nemesis . But this is set 30 years after nemesis Cryptic can do anything with the storyline. For example Vulcan can be enemy's of the federation if Crytic want to go that way with there storyline 30 years is a big window that anything is possible.

[SelorKiith]

Technically speaking Gorn and Klingons will not beeing Allies but the Klingons conquer the Gorn Hegemony and let theire most honourable Individuals alive to serve as slaves on theire ships... or something like that... as it is more likely that the Klingons also conquer the Orions and Nausicaans... instead of negotiating a treaty of Allianceship...

[Xidane]

The thing with an mmo is that some lore must be expanded upon or sacrificed to bring the books/movies/episodes to life. Blizzard did a similar thing with world of warcraft, they introduced two factions, horde and alliance made up of now 5 different races, some of which didn't belong on the same side or had never been seen in a warcraft game before. It looks as if Cryptic is doing a similar thing and that is why they have set the game 30 years into the future, because in the future nothing is established and things are up in the air, hence they can come up with whatever story they like and add characters and factions or whatever to suit their story. I do like your idea of adding those previously seen races though, like the Lyrans, ISC and Hydrans. You could even throw the Mirak in there for good measure. I think we just have to trust Cryptic and hope they know what they are doing :D

Good point, the Mirak could be that last expansion race, except in this game they could have ship loaded up with torpedoes instead of missiles. And they HATE Lyrans too, so it could work. My only fear of adding them would be that they had helped the Hydrans and the Federation in the past, then again, they are a volatile race, and it is the 25th century as you pointed out.

My main concern is that game doesn't have enough distinction between the races/fleets, and that they're wasting a lot of potential, in both a PvP and PvE sense. Player not being able to choose Romulans is a pretty bad move to say the least.

PS: Those were some of my favorite races too.

[47Wasps]

There is an argument that can be made that Cryptic isn't being entirely unfaithful when it comes to the Klingon-Federation War.
In TNG "All Good Things".in an alternate 2395.the Klingons and Federation were on the brink of hostilities,and its sensible that in over a decade those hostilities would have become open warfare.True,that was just an alternate timeline,but it seems possible.

As for the Gorn, I don't see them as becoming a "subspecies" to the Klingons.The Klingons would respect there values,and I think Klingons would be proud to fight along with the warriors of the Gorn race,and the two would be welcomed to Sto-Vo-Kor as the honored dead...
but...Klingons and Naasicans?
I can't really imagine that "alliance"

[ParkerHayden]

I understand where you're coming from, and I actually like your version of factions better than Cryptic's, but I'm willing to see how all these separate species come together under the Klingon Empire.

Seriously, I like your factional set-up.

[Xidane]

I'd hold off on calling the klingon federation war "stupid" for the time being. We have absolutely NO idea what the storyline is going to look like, and for all we know Martok and Worf will end up dead before the end of Crytpic's updates.

I'd say chill out and wait to see whats actually going on.

also, IMO, you cant change what cryptic wants to do...so either deal with it or go away.

There's more at stake here than what Cryptic or for that matter myself, wants, Star Trek deserves better than this, and the diversity is sadly lacking in this game. On the other hand it is 2409, and a lot can happen in that time.

-Romulans, regardless of the economic state should be playable
-Gorn being Klingon lackeys may be possible, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a lazy thing to do.
-Simply not enough races, coloring my skin purple, making a wrinkle on my nose,flying someone else's ships just wont cut it either.

This is my way of dealing with it, and who are you to tell me to go away?? We all have the right to express our view, weather you agree with me or not, is hardly grounds to tell me to 'go away'...

[Xidane]

There is an argument that can be made that Cryptic isn't being entirely unfaithful when it comes to the Klingon-Federation War.
In TNG "All Good Things".in an alternate 2395.the Klingons and Federation were on the brink of hostilities,and its sensible that in over a decade those hostilities would have become open warfare.True,that was just an alternate timeline,but it seems possible.

As for the Gorn, I don't see them as becoming a "subspecies" to the Klingons.The Klingons would respect there values,and I think Klingons would be proud to fight along with the warriors of the Gorn race,and the two would be welcomed to Sto-Vo-Kor as the honored dead...
but...Klingons and Naasicans?
I can't really imagine that "alliance"

That's a very good point, good reference too, it seems that future may not be so hard to fathom after all. I wonder if someone will customize a Galaxy class starship with 3 nacelles. I guess I'm just annoyed that I don't get to use Gorn ships and plasma torpedoes, more because I like the idea of a Gorn story revolving around their origin.

I'm still hoping for a lot more races, and would prefer an independent Gorn race with their own fleet.

[KO_Gilligan]

I'm sure they've been over and over this issue. Klingon vs Federation allows them to have significant player rivalries. How many players in the mainstream will pick Romulan or Cardassian vs Federation and Klingon combined, your idea lacks functionality in the structure that they are planning, as the game evolves, this may very well change.... I think Romulans and Borg balance will be instanced bots that we will all be suffering with.
8472 - rather they don't have much of a presence anyway.

I'm certain it's too late to change the direction of old school hostilities between Klingon and Federation.
Although your post is quite provocative :)

[Xidane]

I understand where you're coming from, and I actually like your version of factions better than Cryptic's, but I'm willing to see how all these separate species come together under the Klingon Empire.

Seriously, I like your factional set-up.

Thanks, I appreciate you saying so, and you're right, I guess the next move is cryptic's. I'm still going to make a facebook account under my STO alias with all my ideas for fun, maybe cryptic will actually look at it. :)

[marscentral]

Romulans will probably be an expansion. While I love the Romulans, I think it's better they're left until they can be fully developed than wedged in for launch and probably diminishing the other two factions in the process. Same really for the Dominion.

The Gorn have never been that well developed in canon (I can't speak for other sources). I think adding them to the Empire gives them a chance to be part of the main story and they fit better thematically there than they would in the Federation.

There are a number of player races mentioned in launch, human, Klingon, Vulcan, Andorian, Bajoran, Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan. There may well be more. The custom species will allow you to make some of the other canon ones as well as your own. I imagine there is more than cosmetic tweaks too.

The Tholians would never be part of a faction, they hate every one! They may use other races (as seen in the mirror Enterprise), but they don't like them.

[Hagon]

It may be "STO's biggest issue" to you, but in reality it's a very minor one, and as long as they develop a story for it then it's perfectly fine (heck I don't even care if they come up with a story to explain it to tell the truth, but that's just me.)

There can be thousands of different opinions on what races should be aligned with what races, and what races should be playable at release. No one opinion is more valid than any other.

Cryptic has made the call, and that's what it'll be. Probably most everyone that's ever taken an interest in STO so far has at some point had to decide to compromise when coming across a design element/game related decision that doesn't match up with what that individual would do were they the one deciding things.

[phifur]

The Gorn have never been that well developed in canon (I can't speak for other sources). I think adding them to the Empire gives them a chance to be part of the main story and they fit better thematically there than they would in the Federation.


That statement just got me thinking your right I love gorn but what is canon for them?
Example: old star trek had them slow moving speed but enterpise had them fast moving speed.

lol I know this is off topic just pop in my head.

[KO_Gilligan]

Romulans will probably be an expansion. While I love the Romulans, I think it's better they're left until they can be fully developed than wedged in for launch and probably diminishing the other two factions in the process. Same really for the Dominion.

The Gorn have never been that well developed in canon (I can't speak for other sources). I think adding them to the Empire gives them a chance to be part of the main story and they fit better thematically there than they would in the Federation.

There are a number of player races mentioned in launch, human, Klingon, Vulcan, Andorian, Bajoran, Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan. There may well be more. The custom species will allow you to make some of the other canon ones as well as your own. I imagine there is more than cosmetic tweaks too.

The Tholians would never be part of a faction, they hate every one! They may use other races (as seen in the mirror Enterprise), but they don't like them.

/em can't focus...cannot comprehend anything MC is saying

Your.... So .... Hot ....

/em blank look and drooling

(just kidding)

[Arachnidus]

Sidenote, the Gorn aren't allies to the Klingons, they were conquered.

[marscentral]

/em can't focus...cannot comprehend anything MC is saying

Your.... So .... Hot ....

/em blank look and drooling

(just kidding)

I know I'm hot. I'm a green hunk of burning Martian love.

The girl in my avatar pic doesn't scrub up badly either.

[amb]

I'm sure they've been over and over this issue. Klingon vs Federation allows them to have significant player rivalries. How many players in the mainstream will pick Romulan or Cardassian vs Federation and Klingon combined, your idea lacks functionality in the structure that they are planning, as the game evolves, this may very well change.... I think Romulans and Borg balance will be instanced bots that we will all be suffering with.
8472 - rather they don't have much of a presence anyway.

I'm certain it's too late to change the direction of old school hostilities between Klingon and Federation.
Although your post is quite provocative :)

What do you want to tell him...

His statements are good. They represent his imagination of a challenging and canon Trek Universe and could have been exactly the way he stated if things went different than they actually did at Perpetual or Cryptic.

I also have my doubts on the fraction thing and honestly Cryptic is in fact deviding those allies like a doc with a scalpell (which is at least The Path To series). They will rewrite the Trek Universe so it fits in their imagination of a game. They are creating canon style and the universe we once knew will change. It will be a dark world with no hope in it, because today's games are full of war, peace doesn't sell good. And that's why Cryptics Trek Universe will be one big war zone where exploration serves the purpos of making war.
If this is the way they chose I can't change it. But if I don't like it I won't play it so if one like it one will play it.
That's the way it goes.
Unfortunaltely, by doing that (with a look at ST XI) Star Trek will loose its authentic and unique style in the world of entertainment. It will be no different to any other SciFi show out there.

Let's see what they will set up and maybe this suggestion will have some influence on their next decisions. You never know. At the end of the day CBS tells everyone where to go.

[USS_Parallax]

Here's my ideas about the problems:

Federation accepting Ferengi into the Federation:
Okay... I don't see a culture change of the needed magnitude being done in the Ferengi Alliance within a mere 30+ years. Seriously. They're about as likely to join the Federation as the Romulans. Maybe in like 100 years. I don't buy it that Rom's rule has brought an end to greed and all that stuff. Ferenginar might be friendlier but I don't think the Ferengi would want to join the Federation as it's counter to everything your average Ferengi stand for! I doubt the Federation would even accept them.

How it might be done:
If the Klingon Empire is becoming more imperialistic and absorbing cultures and peoples into it then they might be a threat to the Ferengi. The ONLY way I see Ferengi joining the Federation is if they have to. As in maybe the Klingon Empire is fresh from conquering many worlds including the powerful Gorn and they're obviously going after the Ferengi next. Only then will the Ferengi be like "heck, I'd rather be with the Federation" and somehow make a deal to get in. By this point the Klingon Empire and Federation aren't at open war yet so the Klingons back off of the newest Federation member, the Ferengi.

Still, that's a long shot.



As for the Gorn joining the Klingons. I'd assume it would only be a result of losing a war. Simply put the Klingons fought and won against the Gorn, claimed their lands and absorbed them.
Why would the Klingons let other races have more prestige though? You rarely saw non-Klingons in places of power in the Klingon Empire. What made them change?

Well I saw this one coming. The Klingons are simply ONE single race. It was only a matter of time before the young Federation made of like 200 passes them up. They can't fight alone anymore. It was a miracle and only due to the fact that they'd been out there longer then many other races that they had a fighting chance in TNG times. By the 2400s I'd guess they'd finally realize they can't go it alone, probably due to the fact of another realization that the Federation is the single remaining Super Power.
The Romulans have recovered from a civil war and aren't up to par. The Klingons are all lonesome, haven't recovered from their wars as much as they'd like and simply put the Federation is going beyond them in almost every way possible. They'd have no choice but to start accepting others. One race can only go so far.

[Meehile]

The game itself will not be canon, so what they choose to do to fill in the gaps will not be then used in future ST lore.

Its unavoidable that some lore will get its toes stepped on because of the nature of an ongoing MMO. Warcraft has done the same to its lore, and so has Warhammer.

[TruthSeer]

There's more at stake here than what Cryptic or for that matter myself, wants, Star Trek deserves better than this, and the diversity is sadly lacking in this game. On the other hand it is 2409, and a lot can happen in that time.

-Romulans, regardless of the economic state should be playable
-Gorn being Klingon lackeys may be possible, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a lazy thing to do.
-Simply not enough races, coloring my skin purple, making a wrinkle on my nose,flying someone else's ships just wont cut it either.

This is my way of dealing with it, and who are you to tell me to go away?? We all have the right to express our view, weather you agree with me or not, is hardly grounds to tell me to 'go away'...

You can't really call the devs lazy at this point in time for putting the Gorn and Klingons together because we don't know how they are going to explain it. From the last Path to 2409, it seems like they are going to be conquered.

I guess I'm just annoyed that I don't get to use Gorn ships and plasma torpedoes, more because I like the idea of a Gorn story revolving around their origin.


Its never been said that there won't be Gorn ships.

Sidenote, the Gorn aren't allies to the Klingons, they were conquered.

And kind of surprisingly based on the Path to 2409, it seems like the Gorn started it.

[JPJappic]

Right now the Federation is composed of humans, and many other generic races, and the Klingons for some reason are now hostile and have their own very unrealistic set of Allies.

I wouldn't call the Federation races generic. If Enterprise showed us anything is that the Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites are very different than one another. As for the Bajorans, they are different as well and have strong spiritual ties to what they do in every day life. Finally, the Ferengi are unique as well and have been shown in various lights.

The Klingons and Gorn are so unlikely an alliance it makes me wonder what other lore blunders will arise in STO. Klingons are a highly aggressive invasive race, Gorn are a highly aggressive territorial race, the two are like mixing matter and antimatter, they can't be allies without a stabilizing factor like the Federation. The dev team placed them together based on first glance observations, Gorn are big and scary, hey...Klingons are big and scary too, let's make them team up, politically speaking it.... MAKES NO SENSE

Nausicans, once again, they're big and scary, but they're also a scattered mercenary race, you give them money and guns then get them to beat the crap out of people, either that or you get killed by them in a bar fight, they don't even have a fleet, so it MAKES NO SENSE! Think of them more as Ogres from Warhammer or Warcraft.

Lore blunders? Cryptic is free to make up what they want in an UNDECIDED future. Aside from the differences you've mentioned between the Klingons and Gorn, they also have many similarities that the Klingons would most likely find attractive. In the end, I think that they will either fight each other to the death to the point of an alliance, or the Klingons are going to invade them and take control. I would think of them as the Remans of the Romulan Star Empire. It's an unfortunate reality if it does end up being like this for those who really love the Gorn. But something which may be inevitable based on what Cryptic has given us so far in the Path to 2409.

-With Chancellor Martok and Warf at the top, they wouldn't war against the Federation

We have no proof that Martok or Worf are still in power or alive. Besides, as per Nemesis, Worf was serving on the Enterprise. Martok will most likely end up being dead and replaced by someone with a hatred for the Federation which will end up causing this war that we will be fighting in.

In all reality I don't think there will be many more factions added to the game.

1. Romulan Star Empire (Romulans, Remans, [insert additional species here]) The Romulans can even end up on both sides of the equation here of the current factions. The Klingons COULD potentially take them over and they could be their own faction allied with the Klingons OR the Unification Movement could prove successful and they could be allies with the Federation which in turn opens up many possibilities in regards to additional player races.

2. The Dominion (Changelings, Jem'Hadar, Vorta, Breen and Cardassians) Though the Cardassians are more or less no longer members of the Dominion this would be an excellent time to introduce them as a player race. Personally, I'd love to see more regarding the Breen.

3. The Borg. Though many people do not want this as it would diminish their power, I think the potential of a renegade group of Borg (like Hugh) is big considering what happened in 'Endgame'. Who knows what will happen with this. We also have options for the Kazon, Hirogen, Vidiians, Talaxians, Ocampa, etc. It's hard to say what they'll give us for a Delta Quadrant Expansion. Would it be so bad a thing if the Borg were a bit overpowered if they were at war with all the factions? It would force people to join up to destroy them and make people's fears about the Borg more realistic.

Those are just my .02 cents regarding this thread.

[KO_Gilligan]

What do you want to tell him...

His statements are good. They represent his imagination of a challenging and canon Trek Universe and could have been exactly the way he stated if things went different than they actually did at Perpetual or Cryptic.

I also have my doubts on the fraction thing and honestly Cryptic is in fact deviding those allies like a doc with a scalpell (which is at least The Path To series). They will rewrite the Trek Universe so it fits in their imagination of a game. They are creating canon style and the universe we once knew will change. It will be a dark world with no hope in it, because today's games are full of war, peace doesn't sell good. And that's why Cryptics Trek Universe will be one big war zone where exploration serves the purpos of making war.
If this is the way they chose I can't change it. But if I don't like it I won't play it so if one like it one will play it.
That's the way it goes.
Unfortunaltely, by doing that (with a look at ST XI) Star Trek will loose its authentic and unique style in the world of entertainment. It will be no different to any other SciFi show out there.

Let's see what they will set up and maybe this suggestion will have some influence on their next decisions. You never know. At the end of the day CBS tells everyone where to go.

This is another variant on the Star Trek games are always Space Marines games....

I could counter with "Star Trek has always been about conflict"




But let's play devil's advocate and see it from your point of view - where the universe holds mostly discovery and wonder:

I like Star Trek, and I like Space Marine games... It doesn't kill the lore for me. No Way will it kill the franchise.
On-Screen Stories will not be effected by our Space Marine Universe. Franchise based games are good when they are good games, making an effective and immersive tie-in is overrated.

Maybe Star Trek games have steered away from Star Trek and have become Combat Centric. Well if it was Star Wars it's OK, so they make a ton of money on a ton of games. But in the same field, Trekkies want to cry foul because we shouldn't be shooting each other.

They are going to try to put non-aggression exploration in this game, but don't expect it to knock us over with joy, they might as well be trying to sell a game based on giving hugs.

Don't get me started on Star Trek XI however.... that's a whole 'nother story :(

[LordDave]

That's a very good point, good reference too, it seems that future may not be so hard to fathom after all. I wonder if someone will customize a Galaxy class starship with 3 nacelles. I guess I'm just annoyed that I don't get to use Gorn ships and plasma torpedoes, more because I like the idea of a Gorn story revolving around their origin.

I'm still hoping for a lot more races, and would prefer an independent Gorn race with their own fleet.

As far as I know, the Gorn ships, Vulcan Ships, ect... will be useable if you choose that race (or maybe if you just want one).

Here is how I see it:

The Federation creates transwarp technology, which allows them to expand into open, previously unexplored space (there are lots of it left) and start a rapid expansion. The Klingons, having conquered the Gorn and see them as true warriors, keep them alive. Martok is either assassinated or retires or something. Worf too. The next guy looks at the state of the Empire (weak from lack of fighting) and sees the Federation Expansion (aggressive) and wants a piece of that so he takes the Gorn and let's them be autonomous so long as they fight for the Klingon Empire and the Nausicans just want in on the deal. One of those "We need an army fast, so let's get some help". The Klingons aren't above using help (as seen in the Klingon/Romulan Alliance).
The Ferengi, seeing a grand opportunity for profit, decide to offer their services in a partnership. The new expansion is very profitable, after all, and with the Klingons wanting some of it, they feel having Federation backup would help. After all, why pay someone to protect you, when an Alliance does it for free?

[Desterion]

Saying they got conquered is an easy enough explanation.

[Sorbek]

I like the OP's ideas very much, sadly all we can hope for is that we can at least run into these hundreds of other races while out in space.

There is also a lot of hope with their Character Customization. Cryptic is practically a legend in this regards. I remember spending like 45 mins just making my character for COH one time. Granted it won't be its own faction or have its own ships, but hopefully they won't put strict restrictions and you will be able to make the race you want and at least pick the side you want.

There is also at least hope that if the game does well and we keep supporting it that these things will come in time.

For me personally I don't have as much time to play as I used to when i was younger and didn't have kids. I none-the-less will be much more willing to shell out 20, 30 even 40 bucks a month for mulitple accounts to play with what little time I do have on this game. Where as I have cancelled all my other MMO accounts because I don't have enough time to play them.

[Count]

Here's my ideas about the problems:

Federation accepting Ferengi into the Federation:
Okay... I don't see a culture change of the needed magnitude being done in the Ferengi Alliance within a mere 30+ years. Seriously. They're about as likely to join the Federation as the Romulans. Maybe in like 100 years. I don't buy it that Rom's rule has brought an end to greed and all that stuff. Ferenginar might be friendlier but I don't think the Ferengi would want to join the Federation as it's counter to everything your average Ferengi stand for! I doubt the Federation would even accept them.


I disagree with you. It's been well established in canon that the federation still trades with other factions, just that within the Federation money is worthless. As far as I know, there's no law that forbids members of the Federation from selling or buying things, and was even shown during Encounter at Farpoint, when Dr. Crusher bought some cloth and had it charged to her account. I also think that joining the Federation would be supported by many Ferengi, especially women, who through Grand Nagus Rom's support would have gained much greater freedom, and would greatly support joining the Federation, as it would solidify and expand on the freedoms they had gained.

I also don't see why the Federation would not allow the Ferengi to join the Federation. The Ferengi are an entire race of mostly peaceful traders and diplomats, who have a wide reach throughout the galaxy. People keep bringing up that the shift from a capitalistic society to a quasi-utopian society would go against thousands of years of Ferengi culture. As would the shift for humans. And the Bajorans. And presumably many other members of the Federation. Now, you may say that 30 years isn't long enough of a time for the Ferengi to make such a change, but they are a very adaptable people. The strongest capitalist on the Ferengi pyramid of power thought it would be a good idea for the Ferengi to move in a new direction, which is why Rom was chosen to be Grand Nagus. Presumably this sentiment is not entirely limited to the highest member of the Ferengi government. I think that 30 years is ample enough time for the Ferengi to make that shift, considering that they would be supported by the Federation, who undoubtedly has a large amount experience helping societies move to the federation economy. And even if that doesn't happen, what if the Ferengi just took over Federation economic interests? I am sure that the Ferengi would have more than enough work dealing with external economics for the Federation.

To sum it all up, until the writers give their storyline, I think that everyone should withhold judgment.

[Varrangian]

they might as well be trying to sell a game based on giving hugs.

I think they'd have better luck on that... most people can find common ground on the universal nature and meaning of "hugs"...

To the OP the biggest problem facing STO is the fans.

[Xidane]

I'm sure they've been over and over this issue. Klingon vs Federation allows them to have significant player rivalries. How many players in the mainstream will pick Romulan or Cardassian vs Federation and Klingon combined, your idea lacks functionality in the structure that they are planning, as the game evolves, this may very well change.... I think Romulans and Borg balance will be instanced bots that we will all be suffering with.
8472 - rather they don't have much of a presence anyway.

I'm certain it's too late to change the direction of old school hostilities between Klingon and Federation.
Although your post is quite provocative :)

I don't see why it wouldn't have functionality, you have 4 on 4, all with reasons to fight each other, and each faction has it's share of powerful and less powerful players. Lyrans for example are equally advanced and wealthy to the Federation, the only reason they're space is smaller than the Federation's is because they have a history of infighting. Being the 25th century, and with a new Empress in power, it's possible they've overcome that, and are making alliances with enemies of their enemies.

Both factions are evenly matched, the rest would be up to the players. To have a role in changing the times would be pretty fun...wouldn't you say? I'll even throw in a crude power scale of the Faction races, matching enemies in order of most powerful to least powerful, in terms of economy. Some are more advanced than others but, are in poorer condition.

FACTION POWER CHART

Federatoin vs Lyrans
Klingons vs Tholians
Gorn vs Romulans
Hydrans vs Cardassians


See...equal. :)

WHO HATES WHO??

Klingons --->*<---Romulans
Gorn ------->*<---Romulans
Hydrans---->*<---Lyrans
Klingons---->*<---Cardassians
Hydrans---->*<---Tholians (Came up with this one myself,so little is known about Tholians it's easy to make a history for them)

Like my pew pew chart?? Silly I know, but it get's the idea across, naturally the Federation doesn't hate anyone, but they have no choice but to fight them.

WHO'S MOST ADVANCED?

Federation - Lyran (Equal)
Romulan -Tholian - Hyrdran (Equal)
Gorn
Klingon - Cardassian (Equal)

Many may think Cardassians to be less advanced than Klingons, but the truth is, it's their garbage economy that's to blame, they have fewer ships, and far less resources, which is why the Klingons can and have beat them senseless. Gorn ships have been known to rival Federation ships such as the Enterprise in combat, so they're not pushovers,

[Silverspar]

Your post makes me laugh, not only because of how wildly innaccurate it is, but because it also demonstrates you ahven't read the novels,b ecause Janeway was the new Borg Queen.

[Xidane]

Romulans will probably be an expansion. While I love the Romulans, I think it's better they're left until they can be fully developed than wedged in for launch and probably diminishing the other two factions in the process. Same really for the Dominion.

The Gorn have never been that well developed in canon (I can't speak for other sources). I think adding them to the Empire gives them a chance to be part of the main story and they fit better thematically there than they would in the Federation.

There are a number of player races mentioned in launch, human, Klingon, Vulcan, Andorian, Bajoran, Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan. There may well be more. The custom species will allow you to make some of the other canon ones as well as your own. I imagine there is more than cosmetic tweaks too.

The Tholians would never be part of a faction, they hate every one! They may use other races (as seen in the mirror Enterprise), but they don't like them.

I agree partially with you about the Tholians, though they do have amicable diplomatic relations with the Romulans, they would only choose this alliance out of convenience. With one familiar ally on Faction II, (Forgive the temporary title) they have a better chance of surviving the times, as apposed to forming one with the other flesh beasts, whom they trust even less.

The Gorn were a major player in Star Trek "Starfleet Command" 1 and 2, they are also very well recognized in the Star Trek universe by fans. "ARENA", Episode #18 of the original series, was one of the top ten favorites, primarily because of the Gorn. That aside, because they are so unknown, they have room for a great deal of fresh lore and story archetypes. This lame role as a Klingon space filler... is pretty lazy imo. Weather or not my faction idea is used, I really feel it's lame to take away their identity.

About these races, do they have different stats? My guess is they're all going to be the same, weather they're Human, Vulcan, or Andorian. Pretending that a Klingon has the same strength and constitution as a Gorn is just as silly as pretending a Gorn can move and react as quickly as the former, or a Human beating a Vulcan in an arm wrestling match.

I do strongly agree with you that although the Romulans should be in the game at launch, it's better that they're not if it's a rush job.

[Xidane]

It may be "STO's biggest issue" to you, but in reality it's a very minor one, and as long as they develop a story for it then it's perfectly fine (heck I don't even care if they come up with a story to explain it to tell the truth, but that's just me.)

There can be thousands of different opinions on what races should be aligned with what races, and what races should be playable at release. No one opinion is more valid than any other.

Cryptic has made the call, and that's what it'll be. Probably most everyone that's ever taken an interest in STO so far has at some point had to decide to compromise when coming across a design element/game related decision that doesn't match up with what that individual would do were they the one deciding things.

It is a huge issue, because it's taking Star Trek, a diverse huge universe, and compacting/simplifying it to dribble. If you don't care about lore or factions, or PvP for that matter, what are you playing it for? Who will you fight? For the most part, only Borg NPCs and Federation vs Klingon battles have been shown, how long can that last?? How fun is it to battle the same enemy over and over?? With all these different factions that I've suggested, each with their own ships, ground combat weapons, vehicles, racial stats and abilities, the strategies that can be formed with each leaves room for limitless combinations. Without diversity... it's not fun, at least not for long, it's not creative, and it's not Star Trek.

[Hodo]

I don't know if you read (The path to 2409 ) storyline. I know what you mean about gorns and klingons being together at the time of nemesis . But this is set 30 years after nemesis Cryptic can do anything with the storyline. For example Vulcan can be enemy's of the federation if Crytic want to go that way with there storyline 30 years is a big window that anything is possible.

They can do more than anything now that both Roddenberry's are dead..... And this is how things like the D'caprio version of William Shakespear's Romeo And Juliet.
The NEW Knight Rider (A FORD MUSTANG COME ON!!!!)
How shows like Knight Rider get new seasons and shows like My Own Worst Enamy gets canned.....
Or need I mention that new abomination.........
Star Trek, JJ Abrams next chunk of Gorn dung.

[dinendae]

It is a huge issue, because it's taking Star Trek, a diverse huge universe, and compacting/simplifying it to dribble. If you don't care about lore or factions, or PvP for that matter, what are you playing it for? Who will you fight? For the most part, only Borg NPCs and Federation vs Klingon battles have been shown, how long can that last?? How fun is it to battle the same enemy over and over?? With all these different factions that I've suggested, each with their own ships, ground combat weapons, vehicles, racial stats and abilities, the strategies that can be formed with each leaves room for limitless combinations. Without diversity... it's not fun, at least not for long, it's not creative, and it's not Star Trek.

No, it is a huge issue to you. You seem to be wanting Star Trek Online to be Starfleet Battles Online. How long can only having two factions go on last? Until the first expansion or content update that introduces a new race/faction (i.e. for quite awhile). I would rather Cryptic launch the game with the two factions they have at the end of 2009, rather than wait until 2010 or so for STO to launch with all of the factions you want to be in. I would love to play a Cardassian, but I am not going to demand that Cryptic delay launch until I get my wish. If STO is not going to be to your liking because of this, I suggest you move on; I really don't see them changing their mind on this before launch.

[Hagon]

Like it's mattered in the least for most every MMOG with a factions vs factions element that's been released. Just about every single one has had two factions at launch, and it hasn't done them any harm. It's not a big deal that you've obviously never played a MMOG with a faction vs faction element, but at least accept that these people making the game probably have (devs don't live in a bubble), and they know what works and what doesn't.

You don't want to play as part of the Federation or Klingon factions? Fine, don't play. Sit on your thumbs until the expansion where they put Romulans in as a playable race (if they ever do, because I know I'm going to be continually campaigning for them not to add any more factions, but to add any new playable races as part of the existing ones. It waters down the faction vs faction too much having more than two.) .

It's no one's fault but your own that you never even took the time to read anything about the game in the 2 weeks you've been around, and only yesterday clued in that Romulans weren't a playable race. Quit trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

[The_Padre]

The Tholians would never be part of a faction, they hate every one! They may use other races (as seen in the mirror Enterprise), but they don't like them.

The Tholians do have diplomatic relations with both the Romulans and the Federation.

[Xidane]

This is another variant on the Star Trek games are always Space Marines games....

I could counter with "Star Trek has always been about conflict"




But let's play devil's advocate and see it from your point of view - where the universe holds mostly discovery and wonder:

I like Star Trek, and I like Space Marine games... It doesn't kill the lore for me. No Way will it kill the franchise.
On-Screen Stories will not be effected by our Space Marine Universe. Franchise based games are good when they are good games, making an effective and immersive tie-in is overrated.

Maybe Star Trek games have steered away from Star Trek and have become Combat Centric. Well if it was Star Wars it's OK, so they make a ton of money on a ton of games. But in the same field, Trekkies want to cry foul because we shouldn't be shooting each other.

They are going to try to put non-aggression exploration in this game, but don't expect it to knock us over with joy, they might as well be trying to sell a game based on giving hugs.

Don't get me started on Star Trek XI however.... that's a whole 'nother story :(


Not sure I understand what you're trying to convey, but my idea about the factions is primarily about PvP, I never said anything about races not fighting each other. If things go my way, there'll be a hell of a lot of fighting, but I also place value on the lore.

The fact is, the game is missing too many key races, the WILL suck if we're fighting the same small list adversaries everyday. From the story point of view, there will far less to explore, far less drama in the universal conflict, these weaknesses will bury this game with all the other competitors.

Whatever happens, I'm just hoping they don't use typical MMO gameplay, I'm so tired of the outdated chance to hit Dungeons and Dragons style of play. Gives us some Halo 3,Fable, and Star Trek Bridge Commander gameplay.

[k.mpok]

I understand where you're coming from, and I actually like your version of factions better than Cryptic's, but I'm willing to see how all these separate species come together under the Klingon Empire.

Seriously, I like your factional set-up.

Same here.

I will give them a chance to explain more but as it stands the faction sides do seem alittle off. Guess something major must happen within the next few years.

[Xidane]

As far as I know, the Gorn ships, Vulcan Ships, ect... will be useable if you choose that race (or maybe if you just want one).

Here is how I see it:

The Federation creates transwarp technology, which allows them to expand into open, previously unexplored space (there are lots of it left) and start a rapid expansion. The Klingons, having conquered the Gorn and see them as true warriors, keep them alive. Martok is either assassinated or retires or something. Worf too. The next guy looks at the state of the Empire (weak from lack of fighting) and sees the Federation Expansion (aggressive) and wants a piece of that so he takes the Gorn and let's them be autonomous so long as they fight for the Klingon Empire and the Nausicans just want in on the deal. One of those "We need an army fast, so let's get some help". The Klingons aren't above using help (as seen in the Klingon/Romulan Alliance).
The Ferengi, seeing a grand opportunity for profit, decide to offer their services in a partnership. The new expansion is very profitable, after all, and with the Klingons wanting some of it, they feel having Federation backup would help. After all, why pay someone to protect you, when an Alliance does it for free?


That was a gold post, great points! If they're going to make the Gorn involved with Klingons, I just hope they have their own ships, racial stats, weapons and vehicles.

I always figured that the Ferengi would play a newtral role as merchants to both sides, like the Goblins of World of Warcraft, but the way you put it makes their reasons for joining the Federation very solid.

[The_Padre]

Also with transwarp technology being used how long would it be before the Jankata Accord was breached. That could easily cause serious issues such as armed conflict, even between former allies.

[Xidane]

Your post makes me laugh, not only because of how wildly innaccurate it is, but because it also demonstrates you ahven't read the novels,b ecause Janeway was the new Borg Queen.

Oh come on man, the novels??? I watch the show, I saw the movies, I play the games, I don't get into all the miscellaneous books and fan fiction that crop up over the years. My info was more accurate than your spelling of inaccurate, and is based on all series/movies/games to date. To be fair, in that respect we're both missing details, but the way I see it, the lore that I used in the creation of these factions, works pretty well with the Star Trek universe, from it's early days in the 60s to present.

As for Janeway being the new Borg Queen... that's what's laughable, and you're laughable for taking that book seriously, no offense but you started it. Maybe it's because I can't stand that character, or because I'm sick of newer Star Trek series piggybacking successful story archs off of TNG, like Billy Ray Cyrus off of Miley Cyrus... the thought of her annoying voice saying, "I am Cigarette'Beath, of Borg...you're existence as it has been-is over.... resistance is hopeless ChaKOtay." Rofl, I added that Janeway joke to my list of things wrong, as a joke, I can't believe someone actually wrote a book about that... Now take the story of how V'ger created the Borg, that's fascinating.

No need to be mean when expressing that you disagree with me, and I'm curious, aside from the Janeway joke being a sad truth, what is it you think I have wrong with my factions? Or the argument that the games needs more races/fleets to be interesting?

[Xidane]

No, it is a huge issue to you. You seem to be wanting Star Trek Online to be Starfleet Battles Online. How long can only having two factions go on last? Until the first expansion or content update that introduces a new race/faction (i.e. for quite awhile). I would rather Cryptic launch the game with the two factions they have at the end of 2009, rather than wait until 2010 or so for STO to launch with all of the factions you want to be in. I would love to play a Cardassian, but I am not going to demand that Cryptic delay launch until I get my wish. If STO is not going to be to your liking because of this, I suggest you move on; I really don't see them changing their mind on this before launch.


It amazes me that they've even mentioned launch with all they have left to do, with or without my ideas. I look at this site and I see a whole pile of Federation. So far the bias has been both blatant and shameless, all the screen shots and videos primarily focus on the Federation's exploits, with only some shots of Klingons, no shots of Gorn or Nausican. Maybe they're just being super secretive, but I don't see much to look forward to for Romulan,Gorn,Cardassian.... EVERYONE, except Federation and Klingon, fans...
True, two factions are all that's needed for the current launch, but those factions need to be diverse, involving fleets,weapons, and racial abilities other than Federation and Klingon. They may have alien tag-alongs, such as Vulcan for Federation or Gorn for Klingon, but what do you want to bet they'll basically be Human and Klingon with different skins. I hope I'm wrong, truly I do, but there's nothing concrete saying I am yet, and this close to launch there ****** well should be. Most MMO sites have the common sense to put a section called "Races" under "The Game", showing images and information(Stats,racial abilities,weapons,ship descriptions) about each, and what their role is in the game. Let's face it, they'll be pushing it back regardless, but I just hope this game isn't as lazily made as it's looking so far.

That being said, the graphics do look great, it would be a shame if this game were a lump of coal in a pretty package.

[marscentral]

The Gorn were a major player in Star Trek "Starfleet Command" 1 and 2, they are also very well recognized in the Star Trek universe by fans. "ARENA", Episode #18 of the original series, was one of the top ten favorites, primarily because of the Gorn. That aside, because they are so unknown, they have room for a great deal of fresh lore and story archetypes. This lame role as a Klingon space filler... is pretty lazy imo. Weather or not my faction idea is used, I really feel it's lame to take away their identity.

About these races, do they have different stats? My guess is they're all going to be the same, weather they're Human, Vulcan, or Andorian. Pretending that a Klingon has the same strength and constitution as a Gorn is just as silly as pretending a Gorn can move and react as quickly as the former, or a Human beating a Vulcan in an arm wrestling match.

I do strongly agree with you that although the Romulans should be in the game at launch, it's better that they're not if it's a rush job.

You do know that games aren't canon. In fact, they're almost always completely ignored in other projects so don't expect anything from Starfleet Command to make it in game. I think that's partly for legal reasons. STO will look first to the films and TV, then the books.

How can you know so much about incredibly minor races and not know about the big ones? The Gorn are only in two episodes and one of them is a Mirror Universe one. Vulcans are stronger than humans, touch telepaths, longer lived and more intelligent. Andorians have a higher metabolic rate making them faster, but more quick to tire and are a more aggressive race. How exactly all this is represented in game remains to be seen (whether it's Klingon or Vulcan), but they have mentioned things like telepathy will play a part.

But that brings the next point, Klingons, Romulans, the Dominion and Cardassians are reasonibly well known outside the hardcore fan. People who have watched casually will know them. They also feature in lots of episodes and have an extensive canon lore for Cryptic to work from. Many of the other races you mentioned simply don't. Those races will have to be part of a larger faction for people to play them in any number. It also means that Cryptic can fill in their lore over time, where as they'll need to create alot to give them the detail of the Federation or Klingons.


The Tholians do have diplomatic relations with both the Romulans and the Federation.

Yes, their diplomatic relationship with the Feds is "Stay out of our space and we'll stay out of yours." Diplomatic relations do not equal an alliance.

[The_Padre]

Yes, their diplomatic relationship with the Feds is "Stay out of our space and we'll stay out of yours." Diplomatic relations do not equal an alliance.

Though it does mean they can involve themselves in more personal dealings, such as the Tholian ambassador owing Benjamin Sisko a personal favor and obtaining Tholian silk for him.

Also since this is a game and our part of the galaxy is coming in for a rather rough time, what with the Borg finally trying to gain a foothold in conjunction with many other threats looming, it would not surprise me that the Tholians do begin to align themselves with another faction. They've been interested before when the Dominion posed a very similar threat to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, sending an observer to Earth for the Antwerp Conference (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Antwerp_Conference).

[Xidane]

Like it's mattered in the least for most every MMOG with a factions vs factions element that's been released. Just about every single one has had two factions at launch, and it hasn't done them any harm. It's not a big deal that you've obviously never played a MMOG with a faction vs faction element, but at least accept that these people making the game probably have (devs don't live in a bubble), and they know what works and what doesn't.

You don't want to play as part of the Federation or Klingon factions? Fine, don't play. Sit on your thumbs until the expansion where they put Romulans in as a playable race (if they ever do, because I know I'm going to be continually campaigning for them not to add any more factions, but to add any new playable races as part of the existing ones. It waters down the faction vs faction too much having more than two.) .

It's no one's fault but your own that you never even took the time to read anything about the game in the 2 weeks you've been around, and only yesterday clued in that Romulans weren't a playable race. Quit trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.


You're not listening...(reading, whatever) and you're thinking on a low scale.

I have played many MMORPGs, WoW, UO, DAOC, LIneage 2, just to name a few which is specifically why I am getting on Cryptic's case, when they are this close to launch and still have the same pale excuse for a Star Trek universe that they did a year ago... I signed on two weak ago, to start putting in my 2 cents because I had assumed up until then that they would add more races, have more info, be more organized. Mind you, I really do like this forum all sorts of great colors and fun tools, but yeah, they really need to get the real meat and potatoes from the FAQ to freaking page. If you had played any MMOs and applied some creative thought to them, you'd have noticed that each race has it's own abilities and identity.

I never said I didn't want to play a Federation or Klingon Faction, so much as I said, I don't want to play a race that's little more than a different skin of those races Not everyone is a Klingon or Federation fan, if I'm going to choose a race and create a character as part of one of their alliances, then I would expect that race's identity be respected. In other words, if I'm a Gorn, I don't want to pilot Klingon ships, I don't want to use Klingon weapons and vehicles in ground combat, and I want my racial stats and abilities to differ from those of a Klingon. Same goes for the Feds, if I choose a Vulcan, I should have the Vulcan nerve pinch as a racial ability and be able to use Vulcan ships.

If the lore can't be changed, then at least let us have our own place in this new universe.

[dinendae]

It amazes me that they've even mentioned launch with all they have left to do, with or without my ideas. I look at this site and I see a whole pile of Federation. So far the bias has been both blatant and shameless, all the screen shots and videos primarily focus on the Federation's exploits, with only some shots of Klingons, no shots of Gorn or Nausican. Maybe they're just being super secretive, but I don't see much to look forward to for Romulan,Gorn,Cardassian.... EVERYONE, except Federation and Klingon, fans...
True, two factions are all that's needed for the current launch, but those factions need to be diverse, involving fleets,weapons, and racial abilities other than Federation and Klingon. They may have alien tag-alongs, such as Vulcan for Federation or Gorn for Klingon, but what do you want to bet they'll basically be Human and Klingon with different skins. I hope I'm wrong, truly I do, but there's nothing concrete saying I am yet, and this close to launch there ****** well should be. Most MMO sites have the common sense to put a section called "Races" under "The Game", showing images and information(Stats,racial abilities,weapons,ship descriptions) about each, and what their role is in the game. Let's face it, they'll be pushing it back regardless, but I just hope this game isn't as lazily made as it's looking so far.

That being said, the graphics do look great, it would be a shame if this game were a lump of coal in a pretty package.

The game still has nearly a year to go, and that is when they would like to see it launch; it is still subject to change. As far as bias goes most people are interested in the Federation, since it was the focus of the shows and movies. They will get around to showing other races and such, you're just going to have to wait. As far as diversity goes, none of us have any idea how diverse the game is or isn't right now; claiming it isn't diverse enough yet is a rather silly declaration to make, as is calling the game 'lazily made' before you even have a clue on how far along it is or how much content is in it. Once beta gets underway, you should see more game information. If you don't, then that would be the time to start complaining.

[Xidane]

You do know that games aren't canon. In fact, they're almost always completely ignored in other projects so don't expect anything from Starfleet Command to make it in game. I think that's partly for legal reasons. STO will look first to the films and TV, then the books.

How can you know so much about incredibly minor races and not know about the big ones? The Gorn are only in two episodes and one of them is a Mirror Universe one. Vulcans are stronger than humans, touch telepaths, longer lived and more intelligent. Andorians have a higher metabolic rate making them faster, but more quick to tire and are a more aggressive race. How exactly all this is represented in game remains to be seen (whether it's Klingon or Vulcan), but they have mentioned things like telepathy will play a part.

But that brings the next point, Klingons, Romulans, the Dominion and Cardassians are reasonibly well known outside the hardcore fan. People who have watched casually will know them. They also feature in lots of episodes and have an extensive canon lore for Cryptic to work from. Many of the other races you mentioned simply don't. Those races will have to be part of a larger faction for people to play them in any number. It also means that Cryptic can fill in their lore over time, where as they'll need to create alot to give them the detail of the Federation or Klingons.




Yes, their diplomatic relationship with the Feds is "Stay out of our space and we'll stay out of yours." Diplomatic relations do not equal an alliance.

I know all about the big ones too, but it seemed hardly worth mentioning, with most of the people here being so knowledgeable in Star Trek lore. Those traits that you listed about the Vulcans and Adorians, are exactly the important details that I feel this game may be missing, and a major reason why I'm posting this. Cryptic has all but ignored this crucial information, they should have a section on this page for "Races" detailing all of these unanswered questions. People need to know things like, are these races going to be unique and have an identity of their own, will they have racial abilities appropriate to their origin, will they have their own ships??? Being this close to launch and still not having one of the first things that should be on an MMORPG page, is a little disconcerting to say the least, especially for someone with an anal-retentive attention to detail such as myself.

Keep in mind that the Romulans, Dominion, and Cardassians, are currently not playable, like you said...these are heavy hitters in the Star Trek universe... we can all agree on that...they're not even playable... I can understand some of them coming out in an expansion, but there's just too many left out, it would take several years of expansions each year just to get key players in the game, by then people may very well have run out of things to do or given up on the idea being what they wanted to be and just play another game. (Bad for Cryptic) Romulans at the very least should be playable, as should Cardassians.

Though I do admit to having a fondness for more obscure less popular races, I can't stand being what everyone else is. Such races also have so much more room for me to be inventive with their lore and characterization, much the way Cryptic is now. However... the lack of solid information about these races is raising my suspicions that they're making a very diluted version of the Star Trek we've grown up with.

[Xidane]

The game still has nearly a year to go, and that is when they would like to see it launch; it is still subject to change. As far as bias goes most people are interested in the Federation, since it was the focus of the shows and movies. They will get around to showing other races and such, you're just going to have to wait. As far as diversity goes, none of us have any idea how diverse the game is or isn't right now; claiming it isn't diverse enough yet is a rather silly declaration to make, as is calling the game 'lazily made' before you even have a clue on how far along it is or how much content is in it. Once beta gets underway, you should see more game information. If you don't, then that would be the time to start complaining.

A year isn't that long in the game making industry, and there's a lot missing, even by their current storytelling. Having a race page and ship gallery for them, really should be up by now, and the races should be somewhat closer than they are to being finalized. You're right though, we'll just have to wait, but I still want to get my ideas expressed, with the hope that they'll consider them. Hardcore feedback, is what they need right now, as strange as it may sound, vocal fans can offer a different perspective that they may not have considered, the same way that the people who read the books have pointed out things I hadn't considered before making this thread.

For me it's frustrating as strategist and a Star Trek fan, to not have most basic of information about the races I'll be using, for me that's something to look forward to, it's what drives my anticipation for a game. I also very much love having unique traits and putting them to use in a combat situation, pitting my chosen race's abilities against theirs. There's not enough info thus far to even know for sure that our races will be unique outside of their appearance.

[dinendae]

A year isn't that long in the game making industry, and there's a lot missing, even by their current storytelling. Having a race page and ship gallery for them, really should be up by now, and the races should be somewhat closer than they are to being finalized. You're right though, we'll just have to wait, but I still want to get my ideas expressed, with the hope that they'll consider them. Hardcore feedback, is what they need right now, as strange as it may sound, vocal fans can offer a different perspective that they may not have considered, the same way that the people who read the books have pointed out things I hadn't considered before making this thread.

For me it's frustrating as strategist and a Star Trek fan, to not have most basic of information about the races I'll be using, for me that's something to look forward to, it's what drives my anticipation for a game. I also very much love having unique traits and putting them to use in a combat situation, pitting my chosen race's abilities against theirs. There's not enough info thus far to even know for sure that our races will be unique outside of their appearance.

Considering how far they've come in such a short time, a year of development is definitely not too short for this game. As far as race/ship sections on the forums, I can't blame them for keeping quiet until they're further along; look at the uproar caused by just detailing one ship made. Now imagine what would happen if they suddenly listed all the races and ships tomorrow, but had to change them once beta started.

[mcgregorslo]

Why must there be only 2 factions since clearly all races are unique in their own way?

I say lets there be multiple playable races and some of them can be friends with eachother or not so let players decide if romulans or klingon are temporary friends against federation. So i rather see players decide ... and it would be beneficial to diplomacy part of STO. Let all playable races have own teritory and let PvP teritories that interect with each races ... so would we share or fight over resources? (just my opinion)

[Xidane]

Considering how far they've come in such a short time, a year of development is definitely not too short for this game. As far as race/ship sections on the forums, I can't blame them for keeping quiet until they're further along; look at the uproar caused by just detailing one ship made. Now imagine what would happen if they suddenly listed all the races and ships tomorrow, but had to change them once beta started.


Good point, let's just hope they don't release the info after it's too late to influence a change in what could be extremely lame.

I don't suppose you know anything about the gameplay, it's hard to tell form the videos weather or not weapons in ground/ship takeover battles are aimed, or are they using outdated combat like WoW. (chance to hit and crit nonsense) I also hope that leveling in this game doesn't include stat alteration and gear, in the sense that WoW/DAOC/Lineage 2 and so on have it. Those games are hopeless for a casual gamer who likes to try out all the races and classes, that and I always found the idea of a Ferengi lifting a Klingon over his head with one finger to be a pretty stupid concept. Because of character stat leveling and gear further altering natural stats, characters in WoW such as 3 foot tall Gnome can become stronger and more durable than an Orc with biceps larger than the Gnome's entire body.

Anyway I'm getting some sleep, good night all, I'll be back again tomorrow.

[marscentral]

This is the thing that gets me in this. You seem to be worrying about an unfounded assumption you have made. Cryptic haven't released a lot of information about the preset races and using that as a basis that they'll all be the same with different skins. They haven't released much on ships either, but we aren't assuming they're all the same. As they're not releasing much on gameplay they can't be to specific about details on either. In this post (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=321007&postcount=24) covering info from the Ask Cryptics, we see that for instance Klingons will have a naturally higher skill with bat'leths and that psionic abilities will be represented.

[SuRGe0n]

Yeah, I've never liked how they had the factions set up. Thumbs up to the OP for a better setup.

[KO_Gilligan]

Nobody addressed the issue I originally brought up regarding player vs player. If you put all the Klingons and all the Feds on the same side, the remaining adversaries would be approximately the same number of people as are in this thread thinking it's a good idea :p

[KL0k]

dont slap me with a games manual or some of your books, cause i didnt read all the sites here, but i dont like the openingposts faction setup .. not even a single bit.
their based around soft-canon and dont feel "close to a star trek show" enough from my perspective. and to explain it further..
for the simple fact that nothing much of the species he added is known or was shown on screen, beside a few books, 1 or 2 episodes or their appearence in a game like starfleet command.
thats like adding the tholians as a faction just for the sake of adding a new faction, while we saw them only a few times.

the orion pirates or the gorn or the nausicaans... i bet they can all be integrated with a bit of a background story setup, and the right way to introduce yourself into the games world when it launches. like.. the klingons were expanding their territory into the gorn space, and since they're fighting the romulans, like the klingons would, they got their backup now. and you could even start on the gorns homeworld, if you choose this character, to show their perspective on the faction. and thats another thing why i cant support the openingspost point of view, cause we simply dont know enough about the game mechanics and how it handles the characters, homeworlds and certain situations inside the factions and all these dynamics.

[marscentral]

dont slap me with a games manual or some of your books, cause i didnt read all the sites here, but i dont like the openingposts faction setup .. not even a single bit.


I won't slap you, I agree. I think the way Cryptic is setting up factions makes more sense from an established canon view point than the OP's. I don't understand why people are agreeing with him to be honest and am wondering if I've missed a series or something. Not every race needs to be in a faction. I'm quite happy to let the Tholians be their own NPC group on their own. It's not a stretch to me to think that the Klingons would spit from their arrangement with the Federation, both Picard and Sisko struggled to keep them on side and they even told Picard they'd be better off with the Romulans. Nor do I have a problem with the idea that other warrior races (such as the Gorn and Nausicaans) might make an uneasy alliance with the Klingon Empire to protect their way of life in the face of an expanding Federation.

[joriandrake]

Hmm...
I see your point.
And i can't believe I've never considered it before.
But I think Cryptic will offer us an explanation for the Klingon alliances.
Prehaps the Gorn(for example) were in the path of Klingon expansion,and instead of conquering them,the Klingon High Council negotiated for them to be brought into the Empire?

I hope alliances won't be permanent like in most other games (like WoW as example), fluid story and strategy can add a lot of flavor to a game, these make it a bit more realistic.

[THORN74]

Here's my ideas about the problems:

Federation accepting Ferengi into the Federation:
Okay... I don't see a culture change of the needed magnitude being done in the Ferengi Alliance within a mere 30+ years. Seriously. They're about as likely to join the Federation as the Romulans. Maybe in like 100 years. I don't buy it that Rom's rule has brought an end to greed and all that stuff. Ferenginar might be friendlier but I don't think the Ferengi would want to join the Federation as it's counter to everything your average Ferengi stand for! I doubt the Federation would even accept them.

How it might be done:
If the Klingon Empire is becoming more imperialistic and absorbing cultures and peoples into it then they might be a threat to the Ferengi. The ONLY way I see Ferengi joining the Federation is if they have to. As in maybe the Klingon Empire is fresh from conquering many worlds including the powerful Gorn and they're obviously going after the Ferengi next. Only then will the Ferengi be like "heck, I'd rather be with the Federation" and somehow make a deal to get in. By this point the Klingon Empire and Federation aren't at open war yet so the Klingons back off of the newest Federation member, the Ferengi.

Still, that's a long shot.



As for the Gorn joining the Klingons. I'd assume it would only be a result of losing a war. Simply put the Klingons fought and won against the Gorn, claimed their lands and absorbed them.
Why would the Klingons let other races have more prestige though? You rarely saw non-Klingons in places of power in the Klingon Empire. What made them change?

Well I saw this one coming. The Klingons are simply ONE single race. It was only a matter of time before the young Federation made of like 200 passes them up. They can't fight alone anymore. It was a miracle and only due to the fact that they'd been out there longer then many other races that they had a fighting chance in TNG times. By the 2400s I'd guess they'd finally realize they can't go it alone, probably due to the fact of another realization that the Federation is the single remaining Super Power.
The Romulans have recovered from a civil war and aren't up to par. The Klingons are all lonesome, haven't recovered from their wars as much as they'd like and simply put the Federation is going beyond them in almost every way possible. They'd have no choice but to start accepting others. One race can only go so far.

parallax ..... i think u and i are sharing a brain.....


The ferengi ONLY make sence in the Federation out of some need for it protection. The economic system of the ferengi just wouldnt mesh with that of the federation. and change like that would be long comming , much longer than 30 years. So they join for protection from the Klingon "expansion"

The Gorn didnt "join" the klingons..... they were obviously conquered. Its the only thing that makes sense. the same would have to be true of the nausicans. I thtink the additional races to the klingon empire were subjicated, i doubt if they were willingly brought into the fold.


while i truely would love to play a Romulan, i can understand and wait patiently for the expansion that will no doubt include them as a playable race. The bigger debate becomes weather they join one of the 2 existing factions, or weather they become a third (possibly backed by the cardassians?) . I think it is likely that we will see the Romulans as an addition to the Federation. The groundwork has already been layed by Spock and the unification group. If vulcan and romulus were to unite, they combined governments would need to stay in the Federation. So perhaps we would see the Romulans join the Federation and the cardasians join the Klingons?

[Xidane]

This is the thing that gets me in this. You seem to be worrying about an unfounded assumption you have made. Cryptic haven't released a lot of information about the preset races and using that as a basis that they'll all be the same with different skins. They haven't released much on ships either, but we aren't assuming they're all the same. As they're not releasing much on gameplay they can't be to specific about details on either. In this post (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=321007&postcount=24) covering info from the Ask Cryptics, we see that for instance Klingons will have a naturally higher skill with bat'leths and that psionic abilities will be represented.

I can tell you some of the clues that started getting me unnerved...

-Federation seemed to have a lot of races, some of which were pretty lame, ie: This Furface (http://kezins.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/12star_trek_online_0.jpg) lame character next to the Vulcan. I've seen this guy in other shots too, and he's not a custom character, because I'm familiar with this race, their name escapes me at the moment. I took one look at him, and thought to myself, there's no way they're making ships,weapons,unique racial abilities or anything for this guy. After all who's going to design ship for the furface people.....That was the first indication that the races on each faction are merely cosmetic.

-Then I heard you could make your own race, and that confirmed my fears. As much as I like that idea, I doubt we'll be able to construct our own ship technology. For example...making a race of purple Vulcanish people, and creating their own unique ship type, that is not of Federation design. There's little chance they'll do the same for the current races.They'll have Federation ships and weapons for generic Federation races, the Gorn, Orians,and Nausicans will be using Klingon junk as well.

-The complete and utter lack of information on the site, has made it impossible quell these doubs, most sites at least have some concept information on the few confirmed races they have.

If I'm correct, that they're being lazy with race details, then this is going to be one snore of a game. It would mean that PvP will ONLY be Federation ships verses Klingon, Federation weapons, verses Klingon....so yeah, an MMORPG with only two races....lame. I've been piecing this game together based on the clues at hand, yes it's early, but not so early that they shouldn't have more solid information. By this I assume that the game is still open for change, hence why I'm going ballistic with the ideas. If they think two races and some cosmetic lackeys tagging along makes an MMO, a Star Trek MMO especially, then they're in for a rude awakening.

On another note, I've also been worried about the PvP, they say it's optional, I'm assuming they mean the 'designated areas' are PvP zones, once entered you have to fight or die. I also trust these areas will be plentiful throughout the Galaxy. I don't know about you, but I like combat missions against enemy fleets/starbases/planets/installations.

[Xidane]

Yeah, I've never liked how they had the factions set up. Thumbs up to the OP for a better setup.

Thanks man :D <----Gorn smiley face.

[Xidane]

Nobody addressed the issue I originally brought up regarding player vs player. If you put all the Klingons and all the Feds on the same side, the remaining adversaries would be approximately the same number of people as are in this thread thinking it's a good idea :p

I did answer that, I even made a crummy chart to explain it, you didn't see me pew pew chart?? :(

Page 4, Post #32

[THORN74]

i dont think that your "custom " race will be using junk or non-standard faction design. Reguardless of the race u creat it will be a full member of the faction u choose (fed or Klingon) and u will mostlikely use the full range of ships for the faction u coose.

I think the "customness" (is that even a word?) of any race u make will basically be only cosmetic. Perhaps u wll have acess to some racial traits (strength, intelect, stamina, mental telepathy, etc....) but i dont see much in the way of uniqueness besides the cosmetic.

[BreachAndClear]

This is what the Path to 2409 updates are for, and we are not very far along into those. I would be inclined to think that, closer to the game's release, we will be informed how these alliances formed in various updates to the Path to 2409 section.

[Thibor]

Old saying that probably evolved from an even older saying ... politics makes for strange bedfellows.
Also consider a statement from the AVP movie ... the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This taking place 30yrs past what we last saw. Cryptic has given themselves a lot of leeway to fill in the politics and factions as they need to. And by far not the biggest issue.

[Xidane]

i dont think that your "custom " race will be using junk or non-standard faction design. Reguardless of the race u creat it will be a full member of the faction u choose (fed or Klingon) and u will mostlikely use the full range of ships for the faction u coose.

I think the "customness" (is that even a word?) of any race u make will basically be only cosmetic. Perhaps u wll have acess to some racial traits (strength, intelect, stamina, mental telepathy, etc....) but i dont see much in the way of uniqueness besides the cosmetic.

That's exactly what I've been saying, and that is the big problem here, I and many others do not want to be Federation or Klingon. Even if you get to tweak your stats a bit, you still have very little identity when you're, piloting Federation ships,wearing their uniform, using their weapons, same goes for Klingon. The entire reason for this thread is to promote unique races on the factions, with all of the above listed traits, except being their own.

The way the game is now, it's only two races and their cosmetic lackeys...a very lazy adaptation of Star Trek.

[marscentral]

He's a Tellarite (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tellarite). That picture though is from the old Perpetual stuff. Some people have been using it to make their own characters.

Assuming you're Starfleet, whether you're Vulcan or human or Malacandran (http://www.stogeek.com/wiki/Malacandran), of course you'll be using Starfleet tech. That's Star Trek. The only place we've really seen them using specific tech for Vulcans and the like was in Enterprise when there was no Federation. Being part of the Federation, Andorian, Vulcan and other member races add their tech to Starfleet vessels. I don't know how they plan on Klingon side, whether they will be using a combination of Orion, Klingon, Gorn etc. or just Klingon. You'll have to wait and see. But believe it or not, two factions can have plenty of tech to keep things interesting in PvP I'm sure. Even if there were 12 different factions, you'll still be using roughly the same tech; phasers, disruptors, various torpedoes, shields and cloaking devices. I'm not sure what you think the Gorn or any other species will bring to that. Cryptic might have other things up their sleeve, but those are the canon ship weapons. PvP will be specific zones btw.

[Xidane]

This is what the Path to 2409 updates are for, and we are not very far along into those. I would be inclined to think that, closer to the game's release, we will be informed how these alliances formed in various updates to the Path to 2409 section.

If it's still in the works, then it still has time to change, this is why I'm blasting out ideas, now before it's too late.

[Hagon]

If it's still in the works, then it still has time to change, this is why I'm blasting out ideas, now before it's too late.Why would they change a completely correct decision? Because Mr. Randomforumposter, who's already been shown to not really have a good grasp on Star Trek related material anyway, says it their biggest issue?

Ya, ok.

[THORN74]

That's exactly what I've been saying, and that is the big problem here, I and many others do not want to be Federation or Klingon. Even if you get to tweak your stats a bit, you still have very little identity when you're, piloting Federation ships,wearing their uniform, using their weapons, same goes for Klingon. The entire reason for this thread is to promote unique races on the factions, with all of the above listed traits, except being their own.

The way the game is now, it's only two races and their cosmetic lackeys...a very lazy adaptation of Star Trek.

i could buy that argument for the Klingon camp, as most of their ships are "family/house" owned. so to a point it would make sense that the gorn, nausicans, or whom ever would have their own ships.

But that argument doesnt fly for the federation. All federation memebers give up their Military when they join, and then fall under the protection of Starfleet. they may keep a few small craft here and there of in system defence (home planet , and such). But the united defencforce of the federation is STarfleet, and as such they have their own uniforms and ships that are standardized. Some leeway is allowed (Worf,Ro, The fish guys with the breaters, etc .... ) but it is kept to a minimum.

While it would be great to be given the freedom to create any race / ship you want, i just dont see that happening yet. One can hope for it in an expansion, but i kind of doubt u will ever see that much freedom

[eNDIE]

Although i havent read all the books i cannot see how cardassian would be any big power in the quadrant anytime soon since the beating they took in the dominion war.

Its been said that the romulans will be added at a faction later after launch so the people who realy wants to have it at launch why not wait untill its added? it would still be a delay if they were going to be added now. plus i think the faction would benefit from being added later it would probably be better done and more detailed.

[marscentral]

Although i havent read all the books i cannot see how cardassian would be any big power in the quadrant anytime soon since the beating they took in the dominion war.


The Romulans are also in the midst of a civil war in the updates. I can see a Romulan-Cardassian treaty coming up to make them a joint third faction (post launch). They have allied with each other in the past and I can see some common ground.

[KL0k]

romulans and cardassians?.... umm... well..... why? only because they got hit badly?.. thats not a romulan behaviour.

"sir, we got some strange energy on our scanners.."
- ".. a cloaked ship?"
".. maybe... probably some romulans sneaking around... wait... sir, theres a ship decloaking right in front of us, its a .... cardassian... galor?!"
- " .... errrr..... well... hmmm..."

[joriandrake]

The Romulans are also in the midst of a civil war in the updates. I can see a Romulan-Cardassian treaty coming up to make them a joint third faction (post launch). They have allied with each other in the past and I can see some common ground.

I miss the spy agencies of those two races, they are inactive, they aren't doing their name anything worth, i hope that romulans gather info about the borg and start to upgrade their tech already, both of those cultures main color is green anyways :)

[ajaco3025]

I don't think the content is as big of an issue, at least not as much as those in the "All Star Trek Knowing" player base. More headache than not...in my opinion.

[marscentral]

romulans and cardassians?.... umm... well..... why? only because they got hit badly?.. thats not a romulan behaviour.

"sir, we got some strange energy on our scanners.."
- ".. a cloaked ship?"
".. maybe... probably some romulans sneaking around... wait... sir, theres a ship decloaking right in front of us, its a .... cardassian... galor?!"
- " .... errrr..... well... hmmm..."

I just said it's a possibilty. We saw in DS9 that they can cooperate with the Obsidian Order and the TalShi'ar bringing a fleet together.

The Romulans aren't beyond cooperation with other species when they see an opportunity. They tried to manipulate the Klingons so that they'd be allies.

[Xidane]

He's a Tellarite (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tellarite). That picture though is from the old Perpetual stuff. Some people have been using it to make their own characters.

Assuming you're Starfleet, whether you're Vulcan or human or Malacandran (http://www.stogeek.com/wiki/Malacandran), of course you'll be using Starfleet tech. That's Star Trek. The only place we've really seen them using specific tech for Vulcans and the like was in Enterprise when there was no Federation. Being part of the Federation, Andorian, Vulcan and other member races add their tech to Starfleet vessels. I don't know how they plan on Klingon side, whether they will be using a combination of Orion, Klingon, Gorn etc. or just Klingon. You'll have to wait and see. But believe it or not, two factions can have plenty of tech to keep things interesting in PvP I'm sure. Even if there were 12 different factions, you'll still be using roughly the same tech; phasers, disruptors, various torpedoes, shields and cloaking devices. I'm not sure what you think the Gorn or any other species will bring to that. Cryptic might have other things up their sleeve, but those are the canon ship weapons. PvP will be specific zones btw.

That was that name! I had it on the tip of tongue, but it kept forming into Talos, hey wouldn't it be cool to use a Talosian??

The fact that Enterprise had those different ships and tech, was really one of it's few great action edges as a Star Trek series. Only low budget or creatively deficient productions of Star Trek would have anything less than that now. Just Federation vs just Klingon for 1 to 2 years is freaken boring...

Have you ever played, Starfleet Command, Star Trek Armada or Star Trek Bridge commander? Each race brings a huge variety to a combat situation, both in playstyle and team tactics, playing only two races is horribly bland (speaking from a tech perspective)

-Federation have longer range phasers that can maintain sustained accurate fire in any direction, this plus powerful fast regenerating shields and good maneuverability make them an excellent jack of a trades fleet. Their torpedoes are more powerful than average when charged into quantum.

-Tholians have the "Tholian Web" an attack that allows them to build defensive matrix in any location they choose, given enough time and a clever use of the weapon, an enemy ship can be trapped by these fields. Once the web is complete it begins draining she enemies shields for it's own power and blocks all attacks made by the trapped ship against you, while you on the other hand can fire away at the target. WIth enough ships this tactic can be devastating against your enemies. For balance purposes, the field will be breakable with sufficient force, provided that you can weaken the web faster than it can replenish itself with your shield energy. Tholian ships are very fast and lightly defended, they also carry less weapons than most races. Great example of tactical game play right there.

-Klingons have less powerful hulls and shields, their faster and more maneuverable. Because they use disruptors, which don't home in like torpedoes, or travel as fast as phasers, they often are forced to get in closer for accuracy, but when they do the results are devastating. Like Romulans,Lyrans and Mirak, Klingons focus the vast majority of their weapons forward. This trade off of defense for offense makes direct assaults more powerful than those of Federation,Gorn,Hydran or Cardassian ships.Larger ships carry beam disruptors in limited numbers. Klingon cloaking is inferior to Romulan, and will be caught earlier when enemies perform a radial sensor sweep. (Sensor sweeps require a recharge time,but provide cloak detection within a limited radius for a short time)

-Romulans have excellent cloaking devices and get in closer than most before being detected. They're equipped with more beam disruptors(more punch than phasers but less range) than Klingons, allowing them more accuracy and range when their damaged target is trying to get away, but they're not quite as fast or maneuverable as the Klingons, and their hulls and shield are narrowly stronger. Romulans use plasma torpedoes, as do the Gorn and Cardassians which are the most powerful the game, but fizzle out over range requiring them to be fire close for full damage.

-Gorn have the strongest hulls and most heavily armed ships, being able to fire plasma torpedos and disruptor beams in any direction. However they're ships are extremely large and difficult to maneuver leaving damaged areas of the ship open to more punishment by faster ships. Although they can fire very powerful weapons in all directions, those weapons take time to charge and the ship's pilot will be hard pressed to outmaneuver the faster enemy ships, to get another firing arc to bear. At that point it becomes test of wits. Gorn ships have the least weapons facing any one direction, but their weapons are not to be taken lightly.

-Hydrans posses a long raged weapon called a Hellbore Cannon, seeks out the weakest shield on an enemy's grid and strikes it at distance. Hydran ships also carry Fusion Beams and for devastating close range damage, punching holes in the enemy ship's shields, thus increasing their vulnerability to the Hellbore Cannaons. Finally they have Gatling phasers fire 4 phaser shots in quick succession, they have the same power a federation phaser's initial strike, but have less range than even disruptor beams. Hydran ships have medium speed and maneuver ability, they're weakness is that they have to pull in close in an attempt to broadside their opponent, to get the most effectiveness from their Hellbore. Their firing arcs can also be less than flexible with hellbores forward and aft, while port and starboard only have short to medium range weapons.

-Dominion are much like the Federation in terms of their hull,shields and maneuverability, however Jem'hadar torpedoes can have their polaron fields charged with additional time and power to pass through enemy shields, or at least have a higher chance (that's for beta testing to figure out)

Anyway I could go on for 20 more pages with this but the idea is, that each fleet offers a different tactical, and story experience, something that is sadly lacking, IF Cryptic does what I suspect they're doing. You can't deny the value of diversifying the combat like this. My ideas for land combat are even more diverse, and allow players to chose a race that has it's own identity, but that's another 20 pages. Let's face it, being just Federation and Klingon is boring, they need enemies with new challenges to fight.

PS: That Trill photo is so hot.

[Varrangian]

There really is a simple explanation for why they have chosen the path they have... if fact if you read the poll results from the antagonist polls you can deduce the situation very simply.

The vast majority of fans of Trek and STO are not hardcore. They might know of the Gorn, but not in the same respect they know the Klingons. In some ways you should feel lucky that the Gorn are even getting entered in as playable characters and not just NPC's because the way they have set it up allows for that.

You see the vast majority of players know and understand the tensions between the Federation and the Klingons, for most of Trek history the peace seen between these two powers has been tenuous at best. Few know the whole Gorn story, let alone the non-canon species like the Lyran and Hydran.

So STO has found a compromise - One way to balance the appeal of the Feds PC's being able to be multiple species is to offer "coalitions" of species in opposition to the federation. Be happy the Gorn were included at all, they could have easily gone with another group.

[DanSeale]

Most likely they will, but as a Gorn fan, it would be pretty lame in my books for them to stick us as some Klingon sub-race. I can't picture the Gorn negotiating with the Klingons, given their xenophobic nature, but the Gorn do share a mutual hatred of Romulans, and fight them for territory too, so you could be right. I just would find it lazy on the Dev's part to not have a Gorn fleet/ground weapons/culture/storyline. All I know, is that it took some extraordinary circumstances to stop the Federation and Gorn from going to war, but as a result they learned to trust one another, sucks that they would lose that in this game, so wrong.

The Gorn have huge potential for an interesting exploration story, considering that their race existed on 3 separate worlds before they achieved space travel, none of which they are indigenous to. As well as exploring space, they could also be searching for the truth of how they came to be, it could very well tie into other race's story archetypes, leading to a future galactic plot &/or threat.

Too much potential being wasted here imo.

IMHO this is one of the few things I questioned that Crytic has done with their overview of all the factions.

We have to be carefull however to not see things exclusively from a S.F.B. point of view. For the most part I can agree with what is being said .... just don't go overboard with the rest.

[Captain_Intrepid]

Actually, I would have liked to have seen the Gorn with the Federation, at least as allies, not necessarily a member of the Federation, unless they are allowed to maintain their territory as they saw fit.

With the Klingons invading Gorn space, well that's more than a bit into Federation territory, considering that the Federation had colonies set up in Gorn territory.

A lot of things can happen yet before the lead up to the release of the game in terms of who's in charge of the Klingon Empire. I can see Chancellor Martok and Worf getting deposed. Worf's son, Alexander might either fight to the death with his father, or would side with those who want to get rid of Worf (maybe convinced to become the next Chancellor).

[Xidane]

Why would they change a completely correct decision? Because Mr. Randomforumposter, who's already been shown to not really have a good grasp on Star Trek related material anyway, says it their biggest issue?

Ya, ok.

What are you talking about.... correct decision ??

Are you saying that it's a GOOD thing that only two types of tech are available?? Ships, weapons and vehicles have to fall under the same criteria as races do in any MMO. Because Star Trek is based on both types of combat, you can't just one tech on each faction, one race on each faction, and some cosmetic lackeys for diversity. My ideas are no less correct than theirs, but there's a difference, mine aren't lazy.

Not have a good grasp on Star Trek related material??? I've been right about everything except those fan fiction books, my TV references in regard to why each race would be the way they are, or chose the faction they are, were perfect. I may have come up with a different interpretation of events, but it was all based on facts from the numerous Star Trek series.

It is a big issue when game this anticipated might become that boring, only two fleet/tech types is just plane lazy, and won't cut it. Why are you jumping on me for wanting the game to be better, why do want this game to be boring and lacking in creativity, what exactly are you trying to achieve...other than being a troll.
If you have any better ideas, please put them on the table instead of being crotchety.

[marscentral]

I've played Armada 2 and Bridge Commander (a long time ago, I might have to install them later). Remember, you will only be modifying one ship at a time, not a whole fleet, and I imagine that there will be lots of possible tech options. There are lots of starships within the Empire and Starfleet that fill lots of different roles.

We have seen that Starfleet vessels will be different to Klingons. Starfleet will be running science, explorer and escort ships while Klingons get heavy cruisers, stealthy raiders and fighter carriers. I can see tonnes of potential in there.

[Xidane]

dont slap me with a games manual or some of your books, cause i didnt read all the sites here, but i dont like the openingposts faction setup .. not even a single bit.
their based around soft-canon and dont feel "close to a star trek show" enough from my perspective. and to explain it further..
for the simple fact that nothing much of the species he added is known or was shown on screen, beside a few books, 1 or 2 episodes or their appearence in a game like starfleet command.
thats like adding the tholians as a faction just for the sake of adding a new faction, while we saw them only a few times.

the orion pirates or the gorn or the nausicaans... i bet they can all be integrated with a bit of a background story setup, and the right way to introduce yourself into the games world when it launches. like.. the klingons were expanding their territory into the gorn space, and since they're fighting the romulans, like the klingons would, they got their backup now. and you could even start on the gorns homeworld, if you choose this character, to show their perspective on the faction. and thats another thing why i cant support the openingspost point of view, cause we simply dont know enough about the game mechanics and how it handles the characters, homeworlds and certain situations inside the factions and all these dynamics.

I have all the major players in the faction lists, in order to even things out... as well as appeal to the fans of games and the shows. besides, people who chose the show races, need something else to fight, as apposed to rehashing the same old wars that we've already watched, what better way to do that, then adding new or less familiar threats. At the same time, it provides an opportunity to see the universe from fresh angle.

The Tholians would a race on one of the faction, no different than what is being done now, except that my idea is not LAZY, and so they would be given unique ships and weapons. Imagine setting traps for enemies with the Tholian web.

Right now it's looking more like this... you choose to be a Gorn for example, but using Klingon ships and weapons, sorry but that's ghetto.

[marscentral]

Not every race needs to be in a faction. The Tholians make much more sense as an NPC race and let players figure out how to deal with them.

[Xidane]

I've played Armada 2 and Bridge Commander (a long time ago, I might have to install them later). Remember, you will only be modifying one ship at a time, not a whole fleet, and I imagine that there will be lots of possible tech options. There are lots of starships within the Empire and Starfleet that fill lots of different roles.

We have seen that Starfleet vessels will be different to Klingons. Starfleet will be running science, explorer and escort ships while Klingons get heavy cruisers, stealthy raiders and fighter carriers. I can see tonnes of potential in there.

True they have a lot of Federation and Klingon tech, so far it seems that's all they have, I really have no interest in working with those designs. I'm not alone in wanting Romulan Warbirds and Gorn battleships to modify. Gorn may be my preference, but there a great many people wanting Romulan, Cardassian, Jem'hadar, even some of the very cool designs from Enterprise, (Vulcan, Andorian,Tholian) those people are getting screwed because Cryptic is not putting in the effort to make more fleets/weapons. There are entire threads of people wanting to start their own fleets(guilds), I was just on the Romulan one a few days ago, being that they're my second choice. What are all those people supposed to do when their race never comes out?? We're not even taking about some of the obscure ones I came up with, we're talking about a fan favorite, and it's being benched at launch...where's the common sense there?? Romulans should not be an expansion add-on, they should be out from the start.

[Zandtar]

True they have a lot of Federation and Klingon tech, so far it seems that's all they have, I really have no interest in working with those designs. I'm not alone in wanting Romulan Warbirds and Gorn battleships to modify. Gorn may be my preference, but there a great many people wanting Romulan, Cardassian, Jem'hadar, even some of the very cool designs from Enterprise, (Vulcan, Andorian,Tholian) those people are getting screwed because Cryptic is not putting in the effort to make more fleets/weapons. There are entire threads of people wanting to start their own fleets(guilds), I was just on the Romulan one a few days ago, being that they're my second choice. What are all those people supposed to do when their race never comes out?? We're not even taking about some of the obscure ones I came up with, we're talking about a fan favorite, and it's being benched at launch...where's the common sense there?? Romulans should not be an expansion add-on, they should be out from the start.

Probably because as much as some of us would like to believe, Cryptic doesn't have unlimited resources to put on the project. Personally, as much as I'd like to play a Romulan, I'd rather wait and keep myself occupied with the two factions if it meant the game would be released in a playable state.

[djnattyd]

+10 Humour for Marscentral on the great Red Dwarf quote.

+10 Drool for Marscentral on the Avatar pic

+10 Drool for Marscentral IF that is Marscentral?

-10 Drool if Marscentral turns out to be a bloke...?!

[Xidane]

Not every race needs to be in a faction. The Tholians make much more sense as an NPC race and let players figure out how to deal with them.


NPCs are not interesting opponents... there is no satisfaction in defeating them, no ego to bruise. and worse of all, no way to be them. NPS are good for little more than target practice, making them tougher, like the elites in WoW instances, only makes them more time consuming and boring. My brother an I have always wanted to outwit our enemies (players not mindless AI) using the Tholian web technology. That would be a lot of fun and strategic value taken from the game, what a waste.

[Varrangian]

+10 Humour for Marscentral on the great Red Dwarf quote.

+10 Drool for Marscentral on the Avatar pic

+10 Drool for Marscentral IF that is Marscentral?

-10 Drool if Marscentral turns out to be a bloke...?!

Poor Mars always getting posters hopes up... Mars is in fact a he, or an it, but he is not his avatar that is true.

[marscentral]

That's the nature of MMOs, they expand and devlop over time. The Klingons and the Federation will have far more content in terms of tech, missions etc. than they would in an RTS or a single player game. All of which has to be balanced against the other faction, something that only really gets done in beta when the players come in. It is much simpler to balance two factions than it is three or four, especially when each faction will have lots of ships, tech, professions, species etc. That's not to say that they can't put a third (or fourth or fifth) faction in, just that you don't do that at launch without dragging alpha and beta play testing out. Most MMOs run on two factions, so it's not unusual.

+10 Humour for Marscentral on the great Red Dwarf quote. Boys from the Dwarf

+10 Drool for Marscentral on the Avatar pic

+10 Drool for Marscentral IF that is Marscentral?

-10 Drool if Marscentral turns out to be a bloke...?! That is me and I'm a bloke. Final op is next month :eek: :D

NPCs are not interesting opponents... there is no satisfaction in defeating them, no ego to bruise. and worse of all, no way to be them. NPS are good for little more than target practice, making them tougher, like the elites in WoW instances, only makes them more time consuming and boring. My brother an I have always wanted to outwit our enemies (players not mindless AI) using the Tholian web technology. That would be a lot of fun and strategic value taken from the game, what a waste.

This game is probably going to feature alot of PvE and I'd like them to keep some interesting species there. You'll still have lots of options for PvP, perhaps one of the factions has figured out how to make a Tholian web of their very own.

[Hagon]

Poor Mars always getting posters hopes up... Mars is in fact a he, or an it, but he is not his avatar that is true.He just uses those sexy avatars to get all the good forum gear. :p

[Xidane]

i could buy that argument for the Klingon camp, as most of their ships are "family/house" owned. so to a point it would make sense that the gorn, nausicans, or whom ever would have their own ships.

But that argument doesnt fly for the federation. All federation memebers give up their Military when they join, and then fall under the protection of Starfleet. they may keep a few small craft here and there of in system defence (home planet , and such). But the united defencforce of the federation is STarfleet, and as such they have their own uniforms and ships that are standardized. Some leeway is allowed (Worf,Ro, The fish guys with the breaters, etc .... ) but it is kept to a minimum.

While it would be great to be given the freedom to create any race / ship you want, i just dont see that happening yet. One can hope for it in an expansion, but i kind of doubt u will ever see that much freedom

Good point about the Federation and Klingons, this is exactly why I want more individual races for the factions. The current setup may have been tolerable if they had Vulcan, Andorian, and Ferengi ships at least, to give them an identity in space, but it really wouldn't makes sense.

[marscentral]

He just uses those sexy avatars to get all the good forum gear. :p

Oh no I've been found out. Still, I'm keeping the +16 ban stick my sexy avatar got me from one of the mods. I'm holding out for a forum cloak.

[djnattyd]

*Wary that Mars may be pulling his leg*

............

*Decides not too post as what he types may be taken out of context and deemed offensive*

[Xidane]

That's the nature of MMOs, they expand and devlop over time. The Klingons and the Federation will have far more content in terms of tech, missions etc. than they would in an RTS or a single player game. All of which has to be balanced against the other faction, something that only really gets done in beta when the players come in. It is much simpler to balance two factions than it is three or four, especially when each faction will have lots of ships, tech, professions, species etc. That's not to say that they can't put a third (or fourth or fifth) faction in, just that you don't do that at launch without dragging alpha and beta play testing out. Most MMOs run on two factions, so it's not unusual.





This game is probably going to feature alot of PvE and I'd like them to keep some interesting species there. You'll still have lots of options for PvP, perhaps one of the factions has figured out how to make a Tholian web of their very own.

It would feel very wrong taking a race's signature move, and there will be plenty of NPC Federation, Klingong, Gorn, Tholian, ect...defending the star bases that player invade deeper in enemy territory. This is another place where players of opposite factions will clash. Stations or fortified worlds would send out distress calls within a certain radius of sectors, and PvPers can respond. One faction has a military mission, they other seeks to stop them, and the other way around at time. Automated defense systems, hordes of npc security for away teams to kill in order to achieve their mission, invading complexes on planet surfaces. Fun fun fun,

NPCs of course should not be as powerful as players, then main challenge is in defeating other players.

The game would be fine with two factions, as long as each race within those factions have their own ships. Think of it this way, in WoW they have two factions, 5 races each, with their own mounts and class options, all I'm saying is, in a Star Trek MMO, ships and races have to indivisible to really be races, interesting ones that is. There's no point having other races if they're just knockoffs of the founding race.

[Xidane]

I don't think the content is as big of an issue, at least not as much as those in the "All Star Trek Knowing" player base. More headache than not...in my opinion.

Cryptic seems to be on the same page as you...

If you've ever played WoW, or Warhammer online, or any of those, picture taking out all the races except one on each side, how boring is that...

[marscentral]

*Wary that Mars may be pulling his leg*

............

*Decides not too post as what he types may be taken out of context and deemed offensive*

Offensive to a preop, transgendered trill? I wouldn't worry, we're a broad minded bunch. ;)

Cryptic seems to be on the same page as you...

If you've ever played WoW, or Warhammer online, or any of those, picture taking out all the races except one on each side, how boring is that...

I don't think that's the case from what I've seen. Just because each species doesn't have it's own ships, doesn't mean they're all the same. There'll be different racial traits and we know that things like Klingon and Vulcan weapons will be in the game. I imagine there'll be Gorn and Andorian and so on and so forth in there too.

[Xidane]

There really is a simple explanation for why they have chosen the path they have... if fact if you read the poll results from the antagonist polls you can deduce the situation very simply.

The vast majority of fans of Trek and STO are not hardcore. They might know of the Gorn, but not in the same respect they know the Klingons. In some ways you should feel lucky that the Gorn are even getting entered in as playable characters and not just NPC's because the way they have set it up allows for that.

You see the vast majority of players know and understand the tensions between the Federation and the Klingons, for most of Trek history the peace seen between these two powers has been tenuous at best. Few know the whole Gorn story, let alone the non-canon species like the Lyran and Hydran.

So STO has found a compromise - One way to balance the appeal of the Feds PC's being able to be multiple species is to offer "coalitions" of species in opposition to the federation. Be happy the Gorn were included at all, they could have easily gone with another group.


Maybe it's just my ethics, but I never do a lazy job on anything, if they're going to add that race, they should go all the way and make it a proper race. NPCs don't count as satisfying opponents, why focus on making perfectly good alien races into mindless AI that you can't even play as?? A lot of people liked those games and their obscure races, and they make for some new blood in the field, personally I'd enjoy fighting all the average Trekers and their average choice of race with something out of the box. Why rehash all the same old wars when you can have new ones at the same time? :eek:

[DanSeale]

Cryptic seems to be on the same page as you...

If you've ever played WoW, or Warhammer online, or any of those, picture taking out all the races except one on each side, how boring is that...

Someone mentioned earlier that you can have SEVERAL races ... and only two factions. IMHO that is as good a system to develope as any (at least for a start). Within that sturcture you could easily have races moving from one side to the other .. depending upon how the story is written. Perhaps one faction (a third) would be neutral and make money or trade with both. Of course that 3rd group would run the risk of being attacked by either one or both ... "possibly".

[djnattyd]

i think the biggest issue that STO faces are the "fans" that are covinced only Roddenberry knows how to do it properly.

Other than that i believe the way Cryptic are doing things sounds just fine, the lack of other factions, namely te Romulans and Cardassians can be explained away using the Path to 2409 blogs.

Obviously the Cardies are banned from developing a war ready battle fleet so that puts them out of the picture straight away. As for the Romulans, they don't exactlly sound as though they are in any position to influence galactic goings-on. With a full scale civil war erupting, i'd imagine that they are less concerned about the problems that the Federation and the Klingons are having with each other. Especially as niether side have ever been more than casual acquaintences and having them face off against each other means that when the dust settles the Star Empire can just stroll in and take what they want and nobody will be in a good enough position (resource wise) to stop them.

[hoggj]

Offensive to a preop, transgendered trill? I wouldn't worry, we're a broad minded bunch. ;)

I don't think that's the case from what I've seen. Just because each species doesn't have it's own ships, doesn't mean they're all the same. There'll be different racial traits and we know that things like Klingon and Vulcan weapons will be in the game. I imagine there'll be Gorn and Andorian and so on and so forth in there too.

yeah there probibly will be

[Xidane]

+10 Humour for Marscentral on the great Red Dwarf quote.

+10 Drool for Marscentral on the Avatar pic

+10 Drool for Marscentral IF that is Marscentral?

-10 Drool if Marscentral turns out to be a bloke...?!


Lol I have to agree, I'd love to know where Marscentral got that photo from, probably one of the hottest Trill I've ever seen. Cool too, because she has a modern attractive 21st century look, but she's Trekked out too.

Was it intentional that your name is Marscentral, and the hair in the photo is also red, or was it just because she's a hot Trill?

[Xidane]

Someone mentioned earlier that you can have SEVERAL races ... and only two factions. IMHO that is as good a system to develope as any (at least for a start). Within that sturcture you could easily have races moving from one side to the other .. depending upon how the story is written. Perhaps one faction (a third) would be neutral and make money or trade with both. Of course that 3rd group would run the risk of being attacked by either one or both ... "possibly".

If I get a chance to cut-fence and bust some Klingon heads for taking us over I will...trust me.
Then I'll nuke their home world with my GORN ship's plasma torpedoes.

[marscentral]

Lol I have to agree, I'd love to know where Marscentral got that photo from, probably one of the hottest Trill I've ever seen. Cool too, because she has a modern attractive 21st century look, but she's Trekked out too.

Was it intentional that your name is Marscentral, and the hair in the photo is also red, or was it just because she's a hot Trill?

She is my own creation. Well, the original photo wasn't, but the red hair and Trill spots are mine thanks to the magic of photo-manipulation. You can see more if you follow the Bryn link in my signature. I was marscentral loooong before being here, but I do have an obsession with all things Martian, hence my captain, Arbol.

[Xydsarewq]

Its too long to quote it :)
I agree with Xidanes post (OP)!

Or let "they" give us explanation of these universe changes - that these changes were done with knowledge of Star Trek universe history and are "realistic" for this universe.

Even it is hard to imagine I can believe that Klingons could be enemies of Federation again (but dont think that all) - maybe some revolution inside Empire. But as Xidane said - do they realy fit in that alliance? I dont think so.

[Xidane]

Offensive to a preop, transgendered trill? I wouldn't worry, we're a broad minded bunch. ;)



I don't think that's the case from what I've seen. Just because each species doesn't have it's own ships, doesn't mean they're all the same. There'll be different racial traits and we know that things like Klingon and Vulcan weapons will be in the game. I imagine there'll be Gorn and Andorian and so on and so forth in there too.

It would be some consolation to see some good racial traits and weapons at least. I hope make accurate character abilities and an interactive environment makes use of intelligence and strength factors, such as hacking, or lifting, physical combat ect... As Gorn I've always wanted to bite people, I hope I can bite Klingons one day, I hope I can nuke those scumbags for ruining my idea.

[Xidane]

She is my own creation. Well, the original photo wasn't, but the red hair and Trill spots are mine thanks to the magic of photo-manipulation. You can see more if you follow the Bryn link in my signature. I was marscentral loooong before being here, but I do have an obsession with all things Martian, hence my captain, Arbol.

Very cool, once I get good at using my new tablet, I'll be making a new avatar myself.

[marscentral]

Very cool, once I get good at using my new tablet, I'll be making a new avatar myself.

I stopped using mine and went back to me mouse as I get better results with that. Mine was a bit of a budget one though, so your experiences may be different.

[Varrangian]

Maybe it's just my ethics, but I never do a lazy job on anything, if they're going to add that race, they should go all the way and make it a proper race. NPCs don't count as satisfying opponents, why focus on making perfectly good alien races into mindless AI that you can't even play as?? A lot of people liked those games and their obscure races, and they make for some new blood in the field, personally I'd enjoy fighting all the average Trekers and their average choice of race with something out of the box. Why rehash all the same old wars when you can have new ones at the same time? :eek:

This has nothing to do with "lazy" this has to do with reality. They have to build a game that will appeal to at least 250K to 500K players and build it in a manageable time frame to keep both their business alive and their investors happy. Those two realities are why they are developing an MMORPG and not you.

[jagerbolt]

I can understand the reasoning, it all makes sense & I even agree with the OP in some parts. But I think it's not what makes the most sense within the lore, but what makes the most sense as a game designer and as a game company.

People are calling clumping races into two factions lazy but they don't take into account that each faction requires a vast amount of resources, money and most importantly takes a long time to develop & balance properly. Each faction is it's own game almost and there needs to be TONS to do in each faction so players don't get bored. STO has had a very rocky development to say the least and I think Cryptic is taking the right stance after taking it over.

They opted to avoid developing and creating content for 4+ individual factions, which would take an extremely long time and no guarantee that it would balance properly. Not to mention the player population would be heavily imbalanced, creating a massive headache for balancing PvP.

They settled on pumping all of their resources into the two most popular factions with the fans. Quality over Quantity. Yes we can all argue forever about why X race joined Y faction doesn't make any sense but as others pointed out there can be very plausible explanations in the story that make it work.

I can understand the frustration about not being able to play as a captain of your favorite race with their own unique ships/tech/storyline. But 2 things:

1. Very little information has been released about this game. We can't say for sure what they are offering in the content since we have seen so little. I'm frustrated at the lack of info like everyone else but I can't blame Crypic for keeping mum. When they revealed the NX-91001 it had a lot of backlash.

2. Since this is a MMO there will always be patches & content that is added. The game that is eventually released will undergo changes and additions just like every other MMO out there.

Just my thoughts is all. :D

[Xidane]

I never did like the Klingons anyway, sucks that might have to side with them.... however, if the Romulan revolutionaries join up forces with the Federation and rest of the Empire becomes an enemies, I might be be switching sides real fast. Granted that I get to pilot ships like the Valdor.

[fireraven]

Its too long to quote it :)
I agree with Xidanes post (OP)!

Or let "they" give us explanation of these universe changes - that these changes were done with knowledge of Star Trek universe history and are "realistic" for this universe.

Even it is hard to imagine I can believe that Klingons could be enemies of Federation again (but dont think that all) - maybe some revolution inside Empire. But as Xidane said - do they realy fit in that alliance? I dont think so.
anymore then telling someone in the 70's that the USSR would be dissolved, Czechslovakia would no longer exist as a single country, or that Poland, Hungary, and Estonia would be members of Nato. They'd find that hard to believe also. I like how they are shaping up in the updates but then again I studied alot of history so much of it makes sense to me from a historical standpoint.
And actually if you watch TNG closely there often seemed to be a low level hostility among many Klingons for the Federation, like they found them unworthy of being allies.

[Xidane]

This has nothing to do with "lazy" this has to do with reality. They have to build a game that will appeal to at least 250K to 500K players and build it in a manageable time frame to keep both their business alive and their investors happy. Those two realities are why they are developing an MMORPG and not you.

Hah... lets see how long they can keep fans when find out how one dimensional the game is. When people get sick of only piloting the same ships all the time, when they need a change of character, but there's only two factions... lol If they want this to fly, those expansions will have to be ready in a year at latest.

Look at WoW's success, they have been morons to put Blood Elves on the Horde, but hey they're rolling in cash because they went all the way to make the game as diverse as they could. There are tones of worlds in this game, and tones of ships, all they have to do in make some for different races, that's not a problem, hell I'll do all the story and concept work for FREE for them.

[fireraven]

Hah... lets see how long they can keep fans when find out how one dimensional the game is. When people get sick of only piloting the same ships all the time, when they need a change of character, but there's only two factions... lol If they want this to fly, those expansions will have to be ready in a year at latest.

gonna guess by this comment you are a gamer that is a trek fan as opposed to a trek fan that is a gamer.... lol some of these people have been waiting yrs (and I don't mean the 1-2 yrs that kids seem to think equals forever) to play a game of this type.... you might want to read more posts on the board... there have been quite a few people that would like to keep their favorite type of ship even if it's not the biggest or baddest.
I'm gonna have to say that what you are implying would only turn off the kind of people that wouldn't be long term players of the game anyways. They would bounce when the next new game comes out.

[Hagon]

Hah... lets see how long they can keep fans when find out how one dimensional the game is. When people get sick of only piloting the same ships all the time, when they need a change of character, but there's only two factions... lol If they want this to fly, those expansions will have to be ready in a year at latest.

Look at WoW's success, they have been morons to put Blood Elves on the Horde, but hey they're rolling in cash because they went all the way to make the game as diverse as they could. There are tones of worlds in this game, and tones of ships, all they have to do in make some for different races, that's not a problem, hell I'll do all the story and concept work for FREE for them.They will make more races, they've said so. For now they have just as many as WoW did at the start. People won't get sick of piloting the same ships, because they won't be piloting the same ships. They'll not only be changing ships as they level up, but they'll be able to keep different ships for different service. You've essentially wasted a bunch of time with this thread. You've made no points, and just whined because they're not making everything exactly the way you want it. Nevrer mind that with the character creation system you can make a character that looks like a Romulan and play the game as such if you want. :rolleyes:

This is a non-issue for most people. Time you dealt with that I think.

[jagerbolt]

Hah... lets see how long they can keep fans when find out how one dimensional the game is. When people get sick of only piloting the same ships all the time, when they need a change of character, but there's only two factions... lol If they want this to fly, those expansions will have to be ready in a year at latest.

Look at WoW's success, they have been morons to put Blood Elves on the Horde, but hey they're rolling in cash because they went all the way to make the game as diverse as they could. There are tones of worlds in this game, and tones of ships, all they have to do in make some for different races, that's not a problem, hell I'll do all the story and concept work for FREE for them.

How exactly do you know that this game is 1 dimensional? They've revealed hardly any details about it yet.

And using WoW as an example isn't very good. You are complaining about how people will get bored of the same ships. Ships in STO will act as the 'class' you play. And WoW has had only until recently the exact same 9 classes. With the new expansion it's now 10. It's been out 4 years and only 10 ways to play. Using your argument WoW should be dead by now as people would have become bored with only having those 10 classes available.

It's not how you play it that keeps people coming back it's the content. WoW keeps people coming back because it adds new zones and worlds and quests to do. And what makes you think that once STO is released that nothing else will be added? Developers have said they plan regular updates to add new stars, worlds and I bet we can add ships and technology to the list.

[djnattyd]

Hah... lets see how long they can keep fans when find out how one dimensional the game is. When people get sick of only piloting the same ships all the time, when they need a change of character, but there's only two factions... lol If they want this to fly, those expansions will have to be ready in a year at latest.

Look at WoW's success, they have been morons to put Blood Elves on the Horde, but hey they're rolling in cash because they went all the way to make the game as diverse as they could. There are tones of worlds in this game, and tones of ships, all they have to do in make some for different races, that's not a problem, hell I'll do all the story and concept work for FREE for them.

Pretty sure EvE and WoW started off with hardly anything.

If they "put all their eggs in one basket" so to speak, then 6 months to a year down the line, when we're all crying out for new content, what will they be able to give us?

[LordDave]

... hell I'll do all the story and concept work for FREE for them.

http://www.crypticstudios.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=sectionall&id=9&Itemid=46
Have fun.
I like how "knowledge of Star Trek" is a requirement. Maybe they're understaffed and can't find qualified people?

[Hagon]

How exactly do you know that this game is 1 dimensional? They've revealed hardly any details about it yet.

And using WoW as an example isn't very good. You are complaining about how people will get bored of the same ships. Ships in STO will act as the 'class' you play. And WoW has had only until recently the exact same 9 classes. With the new expansion it's now 10. It's been out 4 years and only 10 ways to play. Using your argument WoW should be dead by now as people would have become bored with only having those 10 classes available.

Well with WoW 9 classes, but only 6 playable races at release. With STO it's going to be more than 6 playable races, and with the possibility of racial trait bonuses, there's going to be a heck of a lot more than 9 ways to play.

Anyway, we're just doing what this person wants. By keeping up with the responses we're making the thread look big, thus giving the appearance of the issue having more importance than it really does. Not many are worried about it at all.

[cocoa-jin]

Technically speaking Gorn and Klingons will not beeing Allies but the Klingons conquer the Gorn Hegemony and let theire most honourable Individuals alive to serve as slaves on theire ships... or something like that... as it is more likely that the Klingons also conquer the Orions and Nausicaans... instead of negotiating a treaty of Allianceship...

So what are the odds one of these "slaves" would be allowed to command a ship?...since any Imperial player who creates/chooses one of these races will be doing so as a captain.

[DanSeale]

UGH !

What I would have prefered to see (not because I think that Gene Rodenbery was the only one who knew what he was doing ... ) simply because it makes a bit more sense. It may be the XP before we see it.. but I think it is stil within the realm of possibilities.

Faction 1:
Federation
Gorn
Klingon

Faction2:
Romulans (possibliy renegades since there is a stong possibility of civil war)
Brene and Jemhadar
Cardassians

I have no problem with starting with the Klingons and Feds starting out at the brink of war. Let's face it even with the latest in Trek Lore demonstrating "peace" between the two .. it was often some what strained.

IMHO for the sake of a game if folks are not careful they can go over board with being TOO demanding in the light of all things "TREK".

I do believe that the above mentioned factions should provide an interesting and balanced group of alliancesIF and WHEN expansion packs are seriously considered. IMHO .. we need to get this done first. THEN we can start looking at an XP.

(again ... just my opinion)

[BreachAndClear]

The Horde and Alliance are essentially two factions as well are they not? (I only briefly played WoW for about 3 months, and so I do not know if the WoW community gives some other name than 'faction' to the Alliance and Horde, but essentially that is what they are). And in Star Wars Galaxies there are again, two factions (three if you consider being 'unalligned' an unofficial 'faction'). STO is going to open with two, but there is the strong possibility (Jack made it sound almost as a certainty) that two more will appear in a later expansion. The Old Republic, Bioware's hotly anticipated MMO, also is going to feature only two factions. Not all replayability is going to be found only on the faction level, character class, ship class, and race are also going to be big contributors. But then again we know next to nothing about about the depth (or lack thereof) in Captain/crew interactions, or how extensive diplomacy will play into the game. Once there are four factions will the major factions create temporary alliances with each other as part of a dynamic story? There is so much that we do not know about the game, because concerns about ship types and management (and predominantly only in relation to the Federation) seems to be the biggest concern among many of the fans. Thus, a lot of the news and posts seems to be very narrowly focused.

Needless to say it is way too early to be passing judgements about the game as a whole, let along passed upon something as simple as number of factions (which is the same number that is in many other MMORPGs).

[BreachAndClear]

So what are the odds one of these "slaves" would be allowed to command a ship?...since any Imperial player who creates/chooses one of these races will be doing so as a captain.

In the Star Wars lore the Galactic Empire is xenophobic of other races and considers them subhuman (hence everyone we ever see in the Empire is human. In the EU there are exceptions in which aliens of outstanding performance are allowed a comission. Heck, Adolf Hitler gave some ethnic Jews serving in the Wehrmacht certificates that pardoned them from discrimination and more significantly, the concentration and death camps, given their unwavering loyalty to him. There will always be exceptions.

In SWG, initially there were devices implemented into the game that made it harder to be a Wookiee Imperial than it was to be a human Imperial (these were eventually removed I think). I suppose Cryptic could go a similar route by giving non-Klingon members of the Klingon faction slight penalties to advancement (nothing too severe that would stress a gamer out). However, at the end of the day the game needs to be fun and accessible. It seems to be a general consensus of video game developers that they make games that they would like to play. Suspending disbelief to allow for greater diversity of players on the Klingon side might be necessary. Or perhaps it can be 'retconed' as to why we never saw vassal races serving aboard Klingon ships before. E.G. perhaps in preparation for war with the Federation, drastic military reforms were made.

[admriker444]

a klingon / federation alliance never made sense to begin with. The Klingons are war-like aggressors, about as opposite as you can get from the Federation. Im sure Cryptic's storyline will explain where / when the Klingons returned to their old ways

[LordDave]

Needless to say it is way too early to be passing judgements about the game as a whole, let along passed upon something as simple as number of factions (which is the same number that is in many other MMORPGs).

But then what would people do?

[BreachAndClear]

But then what would people do?

People voicing concerns or praise for different game elements is one thing. But when there are topics to the effect of "change x, y, and z, or I am not playing," that's completely different. As said, we really do not know all that much about the game, and much of what we do know is still left to the imagination in regards to how it will be implemented.

[LordDave]

People voicing concerns or praise for different game elements is one thing. But when there are topics to the effect of "change x, y, and z, or I am not playing," that's completely different. As said, we really do not know all that much about the game, and much of what we do know is still left to the imagination in regards to how it will be implemented.

Well written, informed concern or praise is over rated. Who wants that? Forum people want mindless complaints based on guesses, faulty logic, and insults involving someone's mama. :p

[SelorKiith]

As for this, my suggestion that Cryptic shouldn't have make it public and open Forums so early has a good point here or what would you say?
As for me, I say it was a major fault to do this so early... let this had been opened 2 Months before release and everything had been different...

[marscentral]

I think of the forums as a posh meal, it's not the same without a good whine. :D

I apologise for my terrible pun.

[djnattyd]

I think of the forums as a posh meal, it's not the same without a good whine. :D

I apologise for my terrible pun.

You know, i'm still not sure if your pulling my leg or not...

If your not then i feel cheated... And slightly depressed.

[SelorKiith]

I think of the forums as a posh meal, it's not the same without a good whine. :D

I apologise for my terrible pun.

Actually I had to laugh hard :eek:

[Xidane]

They will make more races, they've said so. For now they have just as many as WoW did at the start. People won't get sick of piloting the same ships, because they won't be piloting the same ships. They'll not only be changing ships as they level up, but they'll be able to keep different ships for different service. You've essentially wasted a bunch of time with this thread. You've made no points, and just whined because they're not making everything exactly the way you want it. Nevrer mind that with the character creation system you can make a character that looks like a Romulan and play the game as such if you want. :rolleyes:

This is a non-issue for most people. Time you dealt with that I think.

Lol you're coked out, try reading my posts first, then respond to them. As I said already it's not just about me, it's about those of us who have waited decades for this game to come into being, the only one who's wasted there time, is you. You say I haven't brought up any points, don't get us mixed up...all you've done is troll, you're the one whining about my ideas, not because it'll help the game, but just to be a pest, all you're doing is making me shoot you down again and again.

There's a big fundamental difference between this game and WoW, in the Star trek universe, races that don't have their own fleets, are never major players in the Galactic arena, they're extras in the background being ignored, it's not wrong of me to want to be more than Mott the barber.

I genuinely feel the game's fun factor is threatened by the lack of detail within the factions, when I say that, I refer greatly to the gameplay and tech factor, as I've said, no ships or weapons of their own sucks. Do I think the Gorn will have a Klingon voice and sounds in the game, no I would hope they're not that badly neglected, (at least I hope not) but I do have an appreciation for new content. I hope the story is an interesting one and that the characters will be unique, not just on the outside, but combat/culture/and ability wise as well. There's nothing wrong with wanting that.

[Hagon]

All I'm hearing is "Whaaa! I just figured out yesterday that I won't be able to play as a Romulan at release! Now I'm going to try and cause a ruckus and get them to change their plans!"

[djnattyd]

...in the Star trek universe, races that don't have their own fleets


It's well documented in numerous ST episodes that other races have their own fleets.

The Andorians
The Tellerites
The Vulcans
The Tamarians
The Talerians
The Gorn
The Tholians
The Dominion
The Breen
The Cardassians (albeit broken down, but they still had them)
The Romulans

Just because Starfleet vessels are all you see doesn't mean thats all there is

[fireraven]

As for this, my suggestion that Cryptic shouldn't have make it public and open Forums so early has a good point here or what would you say?
As for me, I say it was a major fault to do this so early... let this had been opened 2 Months before release and everything had been different...
it's pretty much par for the course to open game forums early possibly to determine enthusiasm for the game and in some cases gather ideas of what the community that will play it might be looking for. Also with the situation with Perpetual they had to reassure the fan base that the game didn't just fade away.

[Xidane]

How exactly do you know that this game is 1 dimensional? They've revealed hardly any details about it yet.

And using WoW as an example isn't very good. You are complaining about how people will get bored of the same ships. Ships in STO will act as the 'class' you play. And WoW has had only until recently the exact same 9 classes. With the new expansion it's now 10. It's been out 4 years and only 10 ways to play. Using your argument WoW should be dead by now as people would have become bored with only having those 10 classes available.

It's not how you play it that keeps people coming back it's the content. WoW keeps people coming back because it adds new zones and worlds and quests to do. And what makes you think that once STO is released that nothing else will be added? Developers have said they plan regular updates to add new stars, worlds and I bet we can add ships and technology to the list.

The ships will not be like classes, and even if they were...they don't look or function the same as the ships of the fleets I listed. We're talking a different look, a different playstyle, a whole new everything. People creamed at the WoW devs for years to make new classes because they were getting annoyed, and I know a lot of people wouldn't want a second WoW experience. What I've been saying is to look at what made WoW successful, then add to it, evolve something new.

Unless the ground combat/ship invasion content plays a huge role in the game, then people who choose races like the Gorn will not get a chance to be unique. Personally one aspect of this game I hope is NOT like WoW, is the leveling and gear hunting garbage. I don't want some Ferengi who plays 24/7 to be able to body slam me in a fist fight because he's a higher level, in close combat a Klingon,Gorn or Nausican should always have an edge over other races, and they shouldn't be the same as each other either. They need different stats, racial abilities, these aspects are paramount in ANY game of this type. I hoping that leveling up is about making career progress as apposed to some retarded stat gaining process that makes the impossible happen. Hi I'm a Feregi with 12,000 hp and I can snap Klingon's backs with one arm...

[djnattyd]

All your doing now is grasping at thin air, looking for someway to win a non-existant debate about things that have already been set in stone.

Your point about Klingons always winning makes no sense, in that case in SWG a lvl 15 smuggler should've lost against a lvl 1 jedi simply because a jedi can use the Force.

[Xidane]

Well with WoW 9 classes, but only 6 playable races at release. With STO it's going to be more than 6 playable races, and with the possibility of racial trait bonuses, there's going to be a heck of a lot more than 9 ways to play.

Anyway, we're just doing what this person wants. By keeping up with the responses we're making the thread look big, thus giving the appearance of the issue having more importance than it really does. Not many are worried about it at all.


Yes, thank you very much troll, not my fault you can't stop complaining without added a single constructive post.

[Xidane]

All I'm hearing is "Whaaa! I just figured out yesterday that I won't be able to play as a Romulan at release! Now I'm going to try and cause a ruckus and get them to change their plans!"


I shoot down your point again, and you come back slapping with your redundant comments... again, and I'm the whiner.... yeah....

You still have nothing to say, and are fueling my thread with you wasted text and time, thankxya :rolleyes:

I went on a Romulan Forum and asked the poor people what's the point of having a Romulan fleet, when you can't be Romulans.... then I went off on Cryptic for that oversight. I admit that I'm a tad bit aggressive, but really... Romulans are a huge player, they should be one of the early races. Anyway... keep up the good work troller..

[djnattyd]

I shoot down your point again, and you come back slapping with your redundant comments... again, and I'm the whiner.... yeah....

You still have nothing to say, and are fueling my thread with you wasted text and time, thankxya :rolleyes:

I went on a Romulan Forum and asked the poor people what's the point of having a Romulan fleet, when you can't be Romulans.... then I went off on Cryptic for that oversight. I admit that I'm a tad bit aggressive, but really... Romulans are a huge player, they should be one of the early races. Anyway... keep up the good work troller..

The Romulans are also in no position to influence galactic proceedings as they are in the middle of a Civil War

[Xidane]

It's well documented in numerous ST episodes that other races have their own fleets.

The Andorians
The Tellerites
The Vulcans
The Tamarians
The Talerians
The Gorn
The Tholians
The Dominion
The Breen
The Cardassians (albeit broken down, but they still had them)
The Romulans

Just because Starfleet vessels are all you see doesn't mean thats all there is

And that's why they should be in the game, and why I'm ****ed that I can't use them. A good number of the races you mentioned have had big time plots revolving around them, that's what players want to be.

[Xidane]

The Romulans are also in no position to influence galactic proceedings as they are in the middle of a Civil War

What better way to start off, in a world that needs you the most. Trolls in WoW were all but destroyed by rampaging murlocks, they don't even have a capitol, yet they're still a playable member of their faction, same with Gnomes on the Alliance or Blood Elves.

[LordDave]

And that's why they should be in the game, and why I'm ****ed that I can't use them. A good number of the races you mentioned have had big time plots revolving around them, that's what players want to be.

I'm confused.
Who says you can't be them? We know you can. We know you'll be able to visit their planets.
What most of them probably won't have is their own ships since, at least on the Federation side, they are all part of the Federation and thus all part of Starfleet.

[djnattyd]

And that's why they should be in the game, and why I'm ****ed that I can't use them. A good number of the races you mentioned have had big time plots revolving around them, that's what players want to be.

Eh?!?!

For a start off, the Andorians, Tellerites and Vulcans are members of the UFP so they are in the game. The Gorn are allied with the Klingons so they're in the game.

As for the Romulans, Cardies, Dominion and Breen they're the races that will be in the update.

And i've already explained why they're not available at launch

1) due to the storyline of DS9, Cardassia is forbidden from constructing any weapons of war
2) due to the storyline of The Path to 2409, the Romulan Star Emire is in full blown Civil War mode
3) if Cryptic release every race at launch, there will be NO additional races added at later dates. Meaning there will be NO additional content. No additonal content = A DEAD game

[Varrangian]

I'm confused.
Who says you can't be them? We know you can. We know you'll be able to visit their planets.
What most of them probably won't have is their own ships since, at least on the Federation side, they are all part of the Federation and thus all part of Starfleet.

While I will argue that even for the Klingon faction they won't have their own ships. LordDave is correct. Think of how up in arms people would be if a Vulcan Starfleet officer was whizing around space in a Vulcan ship and not a Starfleet ship...

These coalitions are two fold - first for the federation they are canon and the canon nazi's would go Ape nuts if that was changed. Second, they are a convenience the number of art assets alone would be tremendous let alone if each "specie" had its own style for ship roles.

[admriker444]

And that's why they should be in the game, and why I'm ****ed that I can't use them. A good number of the races you mentioned have had big time plots revolving around them, that's what players want to be.

Hey Id love for all those races to be in the game at launch as well. But lets be realistic for a moment. Including all those races along with their home planets, distinct mission / quest lines, ship designs, skill sets, home worlds, etc thats a MASSIVE undertaking.

Two is a good starting point. Expansions will give us more. Its just not feasible to demand all other trek races along with their fleets to be a playable faction at launch. Not unless your okay with waiting 10 years for STO to launch

[jagerbolt]

The ships will not be like classes, and even if they were...they don't look or function the same as the ships of the fleets I listed. We're talking a different look, a different playstyle, a whole new everything.

This is from 'Ask Cryptic'.

Will ship roles be analogous to naval combat roles or will they be more like the party roles in other MMOs – will ships be cruisers or destroyers or they be tanks or healers?

Federation ship classes are inspired by the television shows. So, for example, you could have a ship like the Enterprise, the Defiant or the Voyager. We call the different classifications of ships Cruisers, Escorts and Science Vessels.

More details on the exact roles and differences are coming soon, but for now, suffice it to say that the ship roles are a combination of naval combat and traditional MMO gameplay. Klingon ships are different, and reflect their style and culture. And everything will be very customizable and very Star Trek.

Will our choice of ships be limited by our chosen specialty as captain? So, for example, Defiants and Akiras are usable only by tactical captains, Nova and Nebula for science, etc.?

No, not at all. You can train and advance in any ship class, or even in multiple ship classes. Certainly your skills and abilities – and those of your Bridge Officers – will affect your ship in many ways, as will your ship modifications. So expect to see lots of permutations.


So the ships will indeed act as classes. I think we should wait for more information about what kind of ships will be playable, we really just don't have any information on all of this. For all we know there may be some Gorn ships available, or you may be able to modify your ship so it looks like a Gorn ship. Cryptic is very well known for their deep customization options.

[Hagon]

I shoot down your point again, and you come back slapping with your redundant comments... again, and I'm the whiner.... yeah....

You still have nothing to say, and are fueling my thread with you wasted text and time, thankxya :rolleyes:

I went on a Romulan Forum and asked the poor people what's the point of having a Romulan fleet, when you can't be Romulans.... then I went off on Cryptic for that oversight. I admit that I'm a tad bit aggressive, but really... Romulans are a huge player, they should be one of the early races. Anyway... keep up the good work troller..Yes, we've already had the people that thought anyone that disagrees with them totally and tells them so is a troll, thanks. Maybe you can be like they were and start reporting people for it.

The fact still remains that you've not made any valid point as to why Romulans should be included as a playable race at release before a number of other races. Romulans aren't really anything special in Star Trek. They're essentially nothing more than lesser evolved Vulcans. In fact Remans are much more interesting. Romulans are really just a second class race in the Star Trek mythos. If/when they are added, they should only be as a member of the already existing factions. Nothing about them warrants a faction of their own in my opinion.

[Xidane]

All your doing now is grasping at thin air, looking for someway to win a non-existant debate about things that have already been set in stone.

Your point about Klingons always winning makes no sense, in that case in SWG a lvl 15 smuggler should've lost against a lvl 1 jedi simply because a jedi can use the Force.

It's been said many times here that's it's too early to judge, if that's the case then it's also too early to be set in stone.

What I said does makes sense, what you're saying doesn't... are you insinuating that a Gorn for example, who lift can lift bolder that weighs hundreds of pounds and hurl it effortlessly about a 20 yard distance, as was seen in ARENA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4xMQevkpI) of the old series (1min 20 seconds into this clip), lose an arm wrestling match with Counselor Troy??, But WAIT she's level 20, I'm only level 7, she just broke my arm! With leveling nonsense, that could happen, I'm saying we go for a bit of realism here, no conventional leveling...let excelling in your career, getting new ships and weapons ect... be the leveling for this game.

It would also make a great deal of sense if this RPG broke some ground by doing away with the auto aim/chance to hit/chance to crit system. It's outdated and really really not fun anymore. When you dig into someone with a Bat'leth, they should get knocked back based on their size and physique, when you aim and hit your target with a ranged weapon, they should flinch from the impact, if you're a big freaken Nausican, you should be able to pick smaller people up and slam them into walls. MMO combat needs a bit more kick.

[Ozymandias]

The fact still remains that you've not made any valid point as to why Romulans should be included as a playable race at release before a number of other races. Romulans aren't really anything special in Star Trek. They're essentially nothing more than lesser evolved Vulcans. In fact Remans are much more interesting. Romulans are really just a second class race in the Star Trek mythos. If/when they are added, they should only be as a member of the already existing factions. Nothing about them warrants a faction of their own in my opinion.

Yes, in your opinion. Here's mine:

The Romulans have been an integral part of Star Trek from the original series all the way to Nemesis... unfortunately in the last, but I won't digress. To simply bump them down to second-tier status would, IMO, do a bigger disservice to the canon in which they are always characterized as scheming, clever antagonists. After all, they stood against a combined Federation/Klingon alliance and worked diligently to undermine it - had any of the one-shot plot devices in TNG actually succeeded, the Alpha quadrant would look quite a bit different. The Klingons have their bluster, the Federation has their endless chattering diplomats, but the Romulans...? They absolutely should play a major role in ST:O - that would be entirely in keeping with how they have been portrayed in the various series. For my part, I firmly hope that the Romulan Star Empire is introduced as a major faction... possibly as part of a Romulan/Cardassian alliance that has been mentioned earlier. I would have loved to have seen the Empire introduced at launch, but I carry on nonetheless. ;)

I've read this thread there's a lot that I don't really have an opinion about, but one of the things I've noticed (and agreed with) is the desire for racial 'distinctiveness'. While the Federation and Klingons have their officially sanctioned vessels, I see no reason why the Vulcans aren't still building their own scientific ships for the Vulcan Science Academy (as an example) that would operate separately from Starfleet but still be recognized as Federation vessels... much like ships sponsored (or even built) by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute doing deep-sea exploration for the U.S. government. This sort of distinctiveness can only add to the game, not detract from it. To the OP, having the Gorn be able to build and pilot their own ships, even if under the Klingon flag is a fine idea.

[Xidane]

I'm confused.
Who says you can't be them? We know you can. We know you'll be able to visit their planets.
What most of them probably won't have is their own ships since, at least on the Federation side, they are all part of the Federation and thus all part of Starfleet.

Right now, there are a lot of races we can't be, Romulan, Cardassian, and Dominion, just to name a few. Like you said. races such as Adorians and Vulcans, can only use Federation ships, which in turn means that the same is true for the Gorn on the Klingon side. Part of my thread has been slamming the fact that we'll be forced to pilot ships that some fans have no interest in. I figure even can't bring out that huge list of fleets I made, then they should at least have fleets for key Star Trek races such as the Romulans. Right now, the ship aspect of the game is ruined for me personally, I'm looking forward to the away team fighting at this point.

[marscentral]

It's been said many times here that's it's too early to judge, if that's the case then it's also too early to be set in stone.

What I said does makes sense, what you're saying doesn't... are you insinuating that a Gorn for example, who lift can lift bolder that weighs hundreds of pounds and hurl it effortlessly about a 20 yard distance, as was seen in ARENA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4xMQevkpI) of the old series (1min 20 seconds into this clip), lose an arm wrestling match with Counselor Troy??, But WAIT she's level 20, I'm only level 7, she just broke my arm! With leveling nonsense, that could happen, I'm saying we go for a bit of realism here, no conventional leveling...let excelling in your career, getting new ships and weapons ect... be the leveling for this game.

It would also make a great deal of sense if this RPG broke some ground by doing away with the auto aim/chance to hit/chance to crit system. It's outdated and really really not fun anymore. When you dig into someone with a Bat'leth, they should get knocked back based on their size and physique, when you aim and hit your target with a ranged weapon, they should flinch from the impact, if you're a big freaken Nausican, you should be able to pick smaller people up and slam them into walls. MMO combat needs a bit more kick.

Where has it ever been mentioned that Troi (who will be an old lady in 2409) is going to beat a Gorn in arm wrestling matches? You're inventing a game of your own here. There's been nothing to suggest that anyone will be physically stronger at end game then they were at character creation. All we know about ground combat is that it's fast paced and that melee will play a role.

[djnattyd]

It's been said many times here that's it's too early to judge, if that's the case then it's also too early to be set in stone.

What I said does makes sense, what you're saying doesn't... are you insinuating that a Gorn for example, who lift can lift bolder that weighs hundreds of pounds and hurl it effortlessly about a 20 yard distance, as was seen in ARENA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p4xMQevkpI) of the old series (1min 20 seconds into this clip), lose an arm wrestling match with Counselor Troy??, But WAIT she's level 20, I'm only level 7, she just broke my arm! With leveling nonsense, that could happen, I'm saying we go for a bit of realism here, no conventional leveling...let excelling in your career, getting new ships and weapons ect... be the leveling for this game.

It would also make a great deal of sense if this RPG broke some ground by doing away with the auto aim/chance to hit/chance to crit system. It's outdated and really really not fun anymore. When you dig into someone with a Bat'leth, they should get knocked back based on their size and physique, when you aim and hit your target with a ranged weapon, they should flinch from the impact, if you're a big freaken Nausican, you should be able to pick smaller people up and slam them into walls. MMO combat needs a bit more kick.

OK i'll simplify it. If i take a factory standard Ferrari F430 with 430BHP and a Honda Civic with a 1000BHP engine transplant and pit them against each other, the Ferrari should win? Even though it has less power, the meer fact that it is a Ferrari means that it is the quicker car?

Somehow i don't think so...

If this was the case, what'd be the point in leveling? Everyone would just be a Gorn or a Vulcan just because they were stronger than humans.

Oh and BTW in the episode you referenced, the Gorn lost to Kirk...

[TruthSeer]

If/when they are added, they should only be as a member of the already existing factions. Nothing about them warrants a faction of their own in my opinion.

I'd rather see them as a separate faction. Depending on how the Path to 2409 goes they can have Romulans, Remans, and custom species.

But however they are released, I'm happy with them being put off until 1) the developers have gotten used to the game and have worked out most of the kinks and 2) they can be done justice. And you can't say that I'm just saying this because I want to play Federation or Klingon even if given the choice of Romulans because I want to play as the Dominion more than anything. And I'm happy to wait for them.

[Xidane]

Yes, in your opinion. Here's mine:

The Romulans have been an integral part of Star Trek from the original series all the way to Nemesis... unfortunately in the last, but I won't digress. To simply bump them down to second-tier status would, IMO, do a bigger disservice to the canon in which they are always characterized as scheming, clever antagonists. After all, they stood against a combined Federation/Klingon alliance and worked diligently to undermine it - had any of the one-shot plot devices in TNG actually succeeded, the Alpha quadrant would look quite a bit different. The Klingons have their bluster, the Federation has their endless chattering diplomats, but the Romulans...? They absolutely should play a major role in ST:O - that would be entirely in keeping with how they have been portrayed in the various series. For my part, I firmly hope that the Romulan Star Empire is introduced as a major faction... possibly as part of a Romulan/Cardassian alliance that has been mentioned earlier. I would have loved to have seen the Empire introduced at launch, but I carry on nonetheless. ;)

I've read this thread there's a lot that I don't really have an opinion about, but one of the things I've noticed (and agreed with) is the desire for racial 'distinctiveness'. While the Federation and Klingons have their officially sanctioned vessels, I see no reason why the Vulcans aren't still building their own scientific ships for the Vulcan Science Academy (as an example) that would operate separately from Starfleet but still be recognized as Federation vessels... much like ships sponsored (or even built) by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute doing deep-sea exploration for the U.S. government. This sort of distinctiveness can only add to the game, not detract from it. To the OP, having the Gorn be able to build and pilot their own ships, even if under the Klingon flag is a fine idea.

Well said, and I agree 100%

Benching the Romulans is a mistake, one that hope will be resolved.

[jagerbolt]

Well said, and I agree 100%

Benching the Romulans is a mistake, one that hope will be resolved.

The game will always need expansions. Patience young padawan - ops wrong game. :D

[osena]

Klingon ships are 30 years past there prime but it still blow up the glaxie class ship do the Klingons use outdated ships or are the so staped for cash they are forced to use outmods i am not much orftrek fan my self i enjoy the movies and when i can set watched few of the shows on si fi i enjoy it i am more of mmo person then any thing els and i am not sure what side i would join feds or Klingon

[TruthSeer]

Well said, and I agree 100%

Benching the Romulans is a mistake, one that hope will be resolved.

So you'd rather them delay the game or cram more content into the game before release and possibly cause a lot of unnecessary problems, then to wait a little while?

[marscentral]

Romulans are cool, but holding them off for a big release post launch makes more sense.

[TruthSeer]

Romulans are cool, but holding them off for a big release post launch makes more sense.

I agree, and hopefully they'll release factions in pairs so we get them and the Dominion together.

[DanSeale]

From a developmental theme in Trek Lore the Romulans were scattered through out its history. From TOS to Nemesis. There is nothing that can be said to take away from their "fair share".

That said, just because from a development stand point Cryptic has chosen to introduce them into the mix in the game at a later time should in no way take away from their standing with the Trek series. This is a game. There's a lot of cool stuff I'd like to see in it. (Including a model or two of my own preference)...

But ya know .. It's not my company. Sooooo looks like unless I can come up with a few million $$$ to develope my own game ... It's all just going to have to wait.

Do I think there is some credibility to moving the factions around a bit?

yes! This is as good a suggestion as any ( IMHO)

Faction 1:
Federation
Gorn
Klingon

Faction2:
Romulans (possibliy renegades since there is a stong possibility of civil war)
Brene and Jemhadar
Cardassians

Sooo what next? Well .. the simple fact is that as long as the game is balanced between the two factions it's not that important. And really .... that should be the end of it.

Should it be something to be considered for the XP .. yes ! Unquestionably.

[Ozymandias]

Well said, and I agree 100%

Benching the Romulans is a mistake, one that hope will be resolved.

Well my own personal knee-jerk reaction is to agree - I blinked in surprise when I heard the Romulans weren't being introduced in-game along with the other two iconic Star Trek factions. I don't know if this was because Perpetual had even less on the Romulans than the others, or a purely business move on their part. However, based on the "Path to 2409" posts, it seems that Cryptic is investing a lot of time fleshing out the Empire (something not done in any of the TV shows to my satisfaction ;)) so I'm willing to wait.

As for the Gorn, I'm not certain what path Cryptic is going to take any more than they will with my favorite pointy-eared schemers :cool: but I was pleasantly surprised to see the storyline begin to involve them as well. It's possible the story may take a turn for the better in your opinion, or worse - we'll just have to see.

Xidane, while I don't agree with all your ideas, I do find them thoughtful and certainly worthy of discussion.

[DanSeale]

Romulans are cool, but holding them off for a big release post launch makes more sense.

Absolutely ! If you thiink about it .. it could even make a bigger impact as opposed to throwing them into the mix along with everything else !

[Ozymandias]

Absolutely ! If you thiink about it .. it could even make a bigger impact as opposed to throwing them into the mix along with everything else !

*smiles and looks thoughtful* We are a rather aloof lot... until the time is in our favor.

[/RP] :D

[Xidane]

OK i'll simplify it. If i take a factory standard Ferrari F430 with 430BHP and a Honda Civic with a 1000BHP engine transplant and pit them against each other, the Ferrari should win? Even though it has less power, the meer fact that it is a Ferrari means that it is the quicker car?

Somehow i don't think so...

If this was the case, what'd be the point in leveling? Everyone would just be a Gorn or a Vulcan just because they were stronger than humans.

Oh and BTW in the episode you referenced, the Gorn lost to Kirk...

Wow..... that was a... terrible argument, no offense but really man, what you just said made even less sense.

I gave a melee example for why leveling is unrealistic and stupid, and you're saying "ya but Kirk beat the Gorn" Kirk shot the Gorn with a diamond loaded cannon, he didn't beat him in a fist fight. Think about it, A Gorn moves somewhat slower than a human, and Federation have longer range more accurate weapons. Phaser beams travel to their target at the speed of light, and can be sustained for a good amount of time, with no recoil to the person firing, where as disruptors have less reach and reach their target slightly slower. The pulse from a disruptor also has massive recoil. The balance is found in superior melee abilities for the Klingon Empire. As for Vulcans, technically they are superior to humans in all ways but character, it's possible they're class options may be limited based on their belief in none excessive violence. They may only be able to pursue careers like Medic, science, and so on, careers that don't certify anything more than a hand phaser. Just a thought.

[marscentral]

Exactly, having them at launch means trying to compete with the other two factions. When they're the expansion, they'll be flavour of the month and everyone will be rolling a Rommie! They'll be way more developed too as the devs will focus on them. Not to mention that just because we can't play as them at launch that they won't feature. As was noted, they're all over the timeline update, more than both the Klingons and Feds combined! I think they'll feature in a big way down the line.

[TruthSeer]

I gave a melee example for why leveling is unrealistic and stupid,

Wait, hasn't it been said (by the devs) that the game won't be a conventional level based game?

[jagerbolt]

Exactly, having them at launch means trying to compete with the other two factions. When they're the expansion, they'll be flavour of the month and everyone will be rolling a Rommie! They'll be way more developed too as the devs will focus on them. Not to mention that just because we can't play as them at launch that they won't feature. As was noted, they're all over the timeline update, more than both the Klingons and Feds combined! I think they'll feature in a big way down the line.

Not to mention Cryptic will have likely a solid year or two under their belt before the 1st expansion hits and will have learned quite a lot from the launch and feedback providing an even better experience.

[marscentral]

Wow..... that was a... terrible argument, no offense but really man, what you just said made even less sense.

I gave a melee example for why leveling is unrealistic and stupid, and you're saying "ya but Kirk beat the Gorn" Kirk shot the Gorn with a diamond loaded cannon, he didn't beat him in a fist fight. Think about it, A Gorn moves somewhat slower than a human, and Federation have longer range more accurate weapons. Phaser beams travel to their target at the speed of light, and can be sustained for a good amount of time, with no recoil to the person firing, where as disruptors have less reach and reach their target slightly slower. The pulse from a disruptor also has massive recoil. The balance is found in superior melee abilities for the Klingon Empire. As for Vulcans, technically they are superior to humans in all ways but character, it's possible they're class options may be limited based on their belief in none excessive violence. They may only be able to pursue careers like Medic, science, and so on, careers that don't certify anything more than a hand phaser. Just a thought.

You do know that Enterprise established that the Gorn can move very quickly? What about that Tuvok was a Security Chief and Tactical Officer? Vulcans often engage in violence, when it is logical (or there's some ritual).

[Xidane]

Well my own personal knee-jerk reaction is to agree - I blinked in surprise when I heard the Romulans weren't being introduced in-game along with the other two iconic Star Trek factions. I don't know if this was because Perpetual had even less on the Romulans than the others, or a purely business move on their part. However, based on the "Path to 2409" posts, it seems that Cryptic is investing a lot of time fleshing out the Empire (something not done in any of the TV shows to my satisfaction ;)) so I'm willing to wait.

As for the Gorn, I'm not certain what path Cryptic is going to take any more than they will with my favorite pointy-eared schemers :cool: but I was pleasantly surprised to see the storyline begin to involve them as well. It's possible the story may take a turn for the better in your opinion, or worse - we'll just have to see.

Xidane, while I don't agree with all your ideas, I do find them thoughtful and certainly worthy of discussion.

Thank you, that's all I hope for on forums, with so many dirty trolls out there it's good to read posts that objective and add something of their own.

[Xidane]

You do know that Enterprise established that the Gorn can move very quickly? What about that Tuvok was a Security Chief and Tactical Officer? Vulcans often engage in violence, when it is logical (or there's some ritual).


I know, but there really isn't any other way to justify being a human, and still have racial diversity. Tuvok could be an exception because he was an undercover operative, and the only qualified Starfleet officer aboard for the job. Like you said, logic had to come first there. I know that's such a thin argument, but I feel that characters really do need their racial abilities intact, almost every other semblance of their origin has been taken away or simplified to death. The same way telepathy would make a very interesting feature to the game, so would physical abilities. It's not Star Trek without the Vulcan nerve pinch. ;)

About that episode of Enterprise... aside from it being a reverse universe, the Gorn really wasn't that fast he just wasn't some guy in a suit who probably couldn't see a thing, overplaying the slowness. They probably said move slow, and he just went overboard. I noticed he moved almost like a crocodile, slow but he could make snap movements when he needed to. In any case he's not about to win any marathons, a talented player with good aim could keep him at bay long enough to take even his huge amount of hit points down. If he's dumb enough to charge them at the wrong moment while their firing at him, that's what he gets. Part of playing any character is knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and how to play them best.

[Xidane]

Wait, hasn't it been said (by the devs) that the game won't be a conventional level based game?

If so then I want to have your baby for telling me that, I'll go look it up right now. That would be so smart of them!

[Silverspar]

That's exactly what I've been saying, and that is the big problem here, I and many others do not want to be Federation or Klingon. Even if you get to tweak your stats a bit, you still have very little identity when you're, piloting Federation ships,wearing their uniform, using their weapons, same goes for Klingon. The entire reason for this thread is to promote unique races on the factions, with all of the above listed traits, except being their own.

The way the game is now, it's only two races and their cosmetic lackeys...a very lazy adaptation of Star Trek.

Actually Hagon would be wrong in this case, but there is a customization and choose perks for your race, that has been described to us already in various articles and such.

[Xidane]

Exactly, having them at launch means trying to compete with the other two factions. When they're the expansion, they'll be flavour of the month and everyone will be rolling a Rommie! They'll be way more developed too as the devs will focus on them. Not to mention that just because we can't play as them at launch that they won't feature. As was noted, they're all over the timeline update, more than both the Klingons and Feds combined! I think they'll feature in a big way down the line.


That's a good point, sad not to see them at launch, but at least that way I can test how much I like being a Gorn lackey. :P

[TristanPEJ]

I only have two questions
1. What species was Morn?
2. How can I be said species?

[Silverspar]

If so then I want to have your baby for telling me that, I'll go look it up right now. That would be so smart of them!

Uhh, well I guess this shows you didn't bother to do any researching before you posted eh? There are at least two Ask Cryptics that state out front that there is not going to be a traditional levelling system, several articles, including the Game Informer one that says there won't, and at least one dev post directly stating there won't be a traditional level based system.

[Xidane]

I only have two questions
1. What species was Morn?
2. How can I be said species?

Ahahaha, he's a Lurian, and who knows, maybe you can with the character customization. You can make your own race, try it when the game comes out. :)

[Xidane]

Uhh, well I guess this shows you didn't bother to do any researching before you posted eh? There are at least two Ask Cryptics that state out front that there is not going to be a traditional levelling system, several articles, including the Game Informer one that says there won't, and at least one dev post directly stating there won't be a traditional level based system.


This thread wasn't about leveling, I wanted to tackle the race/fleet issue first, but I am overjoyed to hear that there wont be any garbage leveling in this game. Looks like Diana Troy is gonna lose that arm wrestling match after all! :cool:

[Ozymandias]

I only have two questions
1. What species was Morn?
2. How can I be said species?

1. Alas, he never said... ;)
2. Customization FTW!

[jojobean]

Don't remember if they said this or not but my biggest problem is not being able to earn rank from a raw cadet on up to Admiral which would be difficult to obtain as well as Captain's rank alongside with a achievement system and commendation and awards earning those top spots would be easier, if they did put the rank system back in thats fine, but having a Star Trek game without earning rank seems kinda off to me

[marscentral]

Don't remember if they said this or not but my biggest problem is not being able to earn rank from a raw cadet on up to Admiral which would be difficult to obtain as well as Captain's rank alongside with a achievement system and commendation and awards earning those top spots would be easier, if they did put the rank system back in thats fine, but having a Star Trek game without earning rank seems kinda off to me

As far as I know, nothing has been said about the ranking system. We know there isn't a traditional levelling system, but that's not remotely the same thing. I get the impression we will go up in rank over the course of the game, but beyong that is anyone's guess.

[TruthSeer]

Don't remember if they said this or not but my biggest problem is not being able to earn rank from a raw cadet on up to Admiral which would be difficult to obtain as well as Captain's rank alongside with a achievement system and commendation and awards earning those top spots would be easier, if they did put the rank system back in thats fine, but having a Star Trek game without earning rank seems kinda off to me

What gave you that impression? If it was the aspect of everyone starting out "captaining" their own ship, what the mean is that everyone will be in command of there own ship. They are called captain out of (naval) tradition even if they aren't captain in rank.

[Quatok]

I suggest that if you have comments or questions that you go to the thread for the 7th installment for FAQ (its not the correct title), but the moderators will go over everyone's questions and select good or the most asked questions and provide answers to the next FAQ update.

As for major factions: I think that the moderators are showing due respect to each major faction, as they would prefer starting with two (there is alot of research, development, art work,and programing) because of the amount of work needed to be somewhat accurate with each. I respect that because I don't want to see a generic Romulan or Cardassian faction. As for playing a "Romulan" when the game begins, I'd use the creation options for creating a race (start with a Vulcan and change it) and there is also supposed to be an option to creating your own ship. Granted that you will not have the technology of Romulas, but you can still create a vessel with Klingon cloaking, weapon options that more accurately portray a Romulan vessel. This is how I understand the article in the PC games magazine. Either way, people will alway find holes in the accuracy of every race.. it all depends on how deep you really want to go in order to criticize.

As for having a race able to use it's own vessels: I asked about this already in the above mentioned thread, I also suggested that a selection be added showing each faction's ship options catagorized by type (ie. scout, exploration, destroyers, science, etc..). If you would like this as well, maybe you can go to the thread and put your own similar question/suggestion.

I can't see Klingons being patient enough to have a Gorn on its bridge (Gorn move slower) or vice versa (Klingons are quick tempered and hasty). Although federation races adapt better in this situation. I don't see the Vulcans wanting humans on their personal ships as well.

[SelorKiith]

(Gorn move slower)

Ever saw "In a Mirror, Darkly" from ENT? This Gorn wasn't "slow"...

[fireraven]

Ever saw "In a Mirror, Darkly" from ENT? This Gorn wasn't "slow"...
one of the main problems of canon is often that the special effects of the time something was made were lacking... ie not gonna see a guy in a huge rubber Gorn suit move very fast...
or the difference between ships pre-cgi and post cgi.

[Xidane]

As far as I know, nothing has been said about the ranking system. We know there isn't a traditional levelling system, but that's not remotely the same thing. I get the impression we will go up in rank over the course of the game, but beyong that is anyone's guess.


It turns out that they're wont be any leveling in the sense that your character will become godly strong and have 14,000 hp, which is a huge relief for me since I'm a huge fan of away missions and ship takeovers. I'd hate to be a 400 pound Gorn getting body slammed by a Talaxian, leveling games are stupid like that, As you make progress in your career, you will get to control stronger ships.

I'm just hoping that the ship combat is better than it's explanation suggests, I watched the Las Vegas webcast video, and it was described as being slow pace. It sounds as if it's turn based, that would be unfortunate, Star Trek's best battle sequences are all fast past with ships buzzing by each other, weapons blazing.

[LordDave]

I'm just hoping that the ship combat is better than it's explanation suggests, I watched the Las Vegas webcast video, and it was described as being slow pace. It sounds as if it's turn based, that would be unfortunate, Star Trek's best battle sequences are all fast past with ships buzzing by each other, weapons blazing.
Turn based? In an MMO? Never.
I think by slow paced it's more like "It takes a while to whittle down the shields and systems"
Essentially like Bridge Commander where you have to think about what you're going to do to take down the enemy rather then just hitting the fire button first.

[Xidane]

Turn based? In an MMO? Never.
I think by slow paced it's more like "It takes a while to whittle down the shields and systems"
Essentially like Bridge Commander where you have to think about what you're going to do to take down the enemy rather then just hitting the fire button first.


That would be fantastic, I loved Bridge Commander, it had the starship combat to date imo.

The away team combat sounds good, they said it would fast pace, involving both melee and ranged combat. I hope that players have to aim their weapons, and that melee move can be performed, I've always wanted to do what the Gorn in Enterprise did, when he slammed that security guard into the wall. :D <---(Gorn Smile)

Priceless (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg2Y_Yh-bHg&feature=related) (Start watching at 2:44mins)

[LordDave]

That would be fantastic, I loved Bridge Commander, it had the starship combat to date imo.

The away team combat sounds good, they said it would fast pace, involving both melee and ranged combat. I hope that players have to aim their weapons, and that melee move can be performed, I've always wanted to do what the Gorn in Enterprise did, when he slammed that security guard into the wall. :D

I doubt you'll have that much control of your actions, but I suspect you'll have some kind of slam hit. Just don't expect it to slap a guy against a wall is all.

[Xidane]

I doubt you'll have that much control of your actions, but I suspect you'll have some kind of slam hit. Just don't expect it to slap a guy against a wall is all.


I expect to dispose of his body by throwing him down a ventilation shaft, or dragging it into a room, like in Metal Gear Solid. :D

MMOs need to up the anti in terms of action, I just started a new thread called "PvP... What do YOU want to see in it??" Add your thoughts too, if you like. :)

[Xidane]

So much for that idea, I didn't know Cryptic had their own PvP thread, they took mine down within minutes of it's creation.... I posted in theirs, but it's so cluttered that there's little chance mine will get any attention.

[nicah64]

Trust in Cryptic, they will come through for us.

[Xidane]

Trust in Cryptic, they will come through for us.

I hope so, because the last thing any of us need is some typical MMO, way too many of those out there.

[ianb4all]

I hope so, because the last thing any of us need is some typical MMO, way too many of those out there.

True i want a crossover of swg/eve/warhammer/wow/stbc/tr/freelancer - combine all thsoe games together with sto theme and you will have one mindblowing mmo that everyoen will want to play and all other mmo's will fall by the wayside.
Example - take the crafting of eve - its really cool how you can scavenge ships and mine for ore in asteroid belts and then trade on the market for blueprints to make items at your factorys.
and in swg the way you could roam on the planets or go hop in your spacecraft and blast stuff in space and do missions there - combine with the playability of wow like its user friendly interface and tabula rasa's unique playstyle (like personal teleport units and the way they use the firing system for the guns and melee) and then you have freelancer(old game but space combat was pretty damn good) and hten you have st bridge commandeer where you can target specific systemson ships and have ppl ion your ship repair certain systems etc etc - combine all those unique propertys together would make one fine mmo.

[Xidane]

True i want a crossover of swg/eve/warhammer/wow/stbc/tr/freelancer - combine all thsoe games together with sto theme and you will have one mindblowing mmo that everyoen will want to play and all other mmo's will fall by the wayside.
Example - take the crafting of eve - its really cool how you can scavenge ships and mine for ore in asteroid belts and then trade on the market for blueprints to make items at your factorys.
and in swg the way you could roam on the planets or go hop in your spacecraft and blast stuff in space and do missions there - combine with the playability of wow like its user friendly interface and tabula rasa's unique playstyle (like personal teleport units and the way they use the firing system for the guns and melee) and then you have freelancer(old game but space combat was pretty damn good) and hten you have st bridge commandeer where you can target specific systemson ships and have ppl ion your ship repair certain systems etc etc - combine all those unique propertys together would make one fine mmo.


I can agree with the Bridge Commander and EVE salvaging ship part, but I wouldn't want this game to be anything like WoW. I like the interface, but hate the grinding/gear obsession, and REALLY hate the auto aim chance to hit/crit nonsense. MMOs need to get updated, I posted this out on the PVP forum, but that thread is too crowded and no one reads it, so I might as well put it here.

WARNING! This post is huge and not for lazy readers!!

I'm hoping to see a great many of these PvP zones, it's very important that PvP be a competitive option for players to make progress in their career, so as best to accommodate all types of players. People who love exploration and scientific endeavors make progress in their own way, while we who enjoy PvP should have ours, with NEITHER alone being mandatory.

SPACE COMBAT

I've always loved Star Trek Bridge Commander, it by far had the best ship to ship combat of any Star Trek game. Aside from a poor interface, and needing a little more speed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCm70favfYI), it has never been topped and needs no fixing. It also allows a skilled pilot a fair chance to hold their own against someone who has the time to play 24/7 (imagine a casual player being able to enjoy the game) This game seems to have added an ingenious "ship take over" idea, where you and a team of friends can board and take a ship over from the inside! This would tie in well with Bridge commander's alternating camera, from outside the ship, to within (When your bridge get's invaded!) I'm hoping that a person can load their ship with a party of friends who enjoy fighting in away teams, so that you can beam them over to the enemy while fighting ship to ship. Naturally you'll be taking a risk lowering your shields, but collecting starships for you high command to savage parts from will earn you and your party more rep.

AWAY TEAM

In the Webcast this form of PvP was described as fast past, weaving and dodging, firing your weapon or engaging in hand to hand combat. I hope it really is what he said it would be, I'm hoping that phasers/disruptors require us to aim at our targets like skilled players, as apposed to some outdated/amateur auto hit system like in WoW. The same would go for the weaving and dodging, it's up to the player to be skillful enough to evade incoming fire. As melee combat is a huge factor for Klingon fans,(or Kirk fans!) it too must be equally intense and exciting. Moves, combos, throws,Vulcan nerve pinch, sneak up stealth kills, Gorn biting, rifle smashing, Bat'leth... all that kind of stuff(wind fire, all that kind of thing). Some of the greatest military action in Deep Space 9 or Enterprise, consisted of a brutal combination of phaser and melee battles, as a Star Trek game of epic proportions, IT IS PARAMOUNT, that this game have that. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting an interactive environment where differences of size, strength, weight and speed all count(These factors vary between races). Naturally Federation have longer range more accurate weapons. Phaser beams travel to their target at the speed of light, and can be sustained for a good amount of time, with no recoil to the person firing, where as disruptors have powerful burst hits, less reach and take slightly longer to strike their target. The pulse from a disruptor also has massive recoil. The balance is found in superior melee abilities for the Klingon Empire. Telepaths should be able to see a mental imprint enemies, and friends through walls when they focus. Naturally the auras would be distinguished by color, example; Blue-Federation, Red-Klingon

Smashing someone into a wall, then Disruptoring them while they're recovering always makes my day, so I hope that this game has some physics.

Here are a few more clips, these illustrate very well, what combat could be like for melee.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP9IBRkpNL8 (Ranged combat, hard to see the shots because of the quality, but it's easy to understand how well this would work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWeiT...eature=related (Melee combat, just picture a Bat'leth doing this)


It'd be cool to have a rating system for stats such as strength or telepathic ability.

Strength would determine how much a person can lift/throw/push, this includes people as well as objects, weight ratings must also be issued to determine how hard it is for someone to be lifted/thrown/pushed. It also increases the damage you inflict with melee attacks.

EXAMPLES

STRENGTH

1 2 3 4 = Weaker than average species, can lift/move/throw little more than light objects weak melee attacks

1 2 3 4 = Average strength, can lift/move/throw medium weight objects and inflict medium melee damage

1 2 3 4 = Inhuman strength, can lift/move/throw large objects and inflict high melee damage and damage objects such as consoles.

1 2 3 4 = Supernatural strength can life/move/throw enormous objects, devastating melee damage, capable of smashing through doors.

TELEPATHY

1 2 3 4 = Little to no telepathic ability

1 2 3 4 = Limited telepathic ability, generally requiring physical contact (Vulcans)

1 2 3 4 = Telepathy, the ability to read and sense the minds of other beings (Betazoid)

1 2 3 4 = Gifted telepathy & telekinesis, capable of reading minds and moving objects with one's mind

This system can be used for all sorts of character statistics.

[ktanner3]

Who said anything about the Gorn and Naussicans being WILLING allies of the Kilngons? It's more likely they were conquered species, which would make lots of sense with the nature of the Klingons.

[Xidane]

Who said anything about the Gorn and Naussicans being WILLING allies of the Kilngons? It's more likely they were conquered species, which would make lots of sense with the nature of the Klingons.

It doesn't really make sense, considering that Klingons only allow members of houses to serve in their fleet, much less command a ship. They'd have to take over the Gorn really soon, then grant them equality somewhere along the line. Or they have battled the Gorn, then figured out that the Gorn never meant to attack them, maybe it was some sort of ploy by a third party to weaken the two Empires. In reprisal for the damage caused during the war, the Gorn join forces with them, maybe they develop a respect for each other. Who knows, all I know is... I'm not too thrilled about being on the Klingon Empire, if they did take us over, I hope we get a chance to return the favor someday.

If we can't have ships, I at LEAST hope we'll all have individual racial stats, and abilities like the ones I listed above.

[DeathsAngel117]

STOs biggest issue ;)

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=9991&page=44

Think about it and keep an open mind,Not my thread but Im looking for some people to discuss game play and RPG elements and to discuss this truly unique and fascinating option which I feel is currently missing from STO,

Thanks:D

[Loekii]

I think there is a difference between 'Lazy' and being 'Practical'.

It is difficult enough to just get one faction 'correct' for launch, let alone multiple factions. I think be biggest reason that Romulans and the Dominion are not player Factions, and why say the Gorn are 'alinged', is the reality of how impractical it would be to try to build STO with a Fed, Klingon, Romulan, Dominon, Gorn, etc faction.

Currently they only are dealing with the basic game designs, and content for the Fed players, and content for the Klingon players. That in and of itself should be a lot of content. Most MMOs use a lot of 'shared content' -- Ie Dwarfs end up sharing content with the rest of the Alliance in WoW, Dark Elves end up sharing content with the rest of the world in EQ.

Add to that, the impracticallity of trying to create Non-Bipedial Player speices (tholian, Hydran, etc). Atleast with Bi-pedial player races, you can share many of the skins.

I would much rather be limited to these two factional choices, than have more choices but less quality/content.

I think and hope that Cryptic puts some thought into the fiction behind the alliances, so that we can all just enjoy a good game -- instead of dealing with some weak fiction used to knit races together.

[willriker09]

Here's my 2 cents, and I'm sure it has already been said in one of these responses.

The Klingons seemingly want to get back to the days of conquest and expansion that characterize their species. The Orion, Gorn, and Nausicans are not simply allies, some if not all of them have been conquered and forced into military service. Cannon fodder, much like the Remans during the Dominion War.

Also, there aren't problems with video game incarnations of franchises like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. The problem is specific individuals who are too stubborn in their personal view of said franchise to accept its growth into bold new markets ie the MMO.

Take Harry Potter for example, when the films came out you had all these geeks with painted forehead lightning bolts screaming "HERESY" at the top of their lungs. I'm sorry if you, like many on these boards, don't like something about this game. Just realize that their are a lot more people who are really looking forward to it and think it looks quite enjoyable.

[rotary]

Remember guys this is an MMO, updates will change everything. Sure, we start off with Federation against Klingon, who knows where things will be in 2 years. Perhaps they'll introduce Romulans and Cardassians, the Dominion etc as playable races, the number of people playing those sides increase, then Cryptic can have the Feds and Klingons sign peace treaties and be at war against the Romulans and Cardassian when there's an adequate number of players on both sides.

There's going to be growing pains, there is with most MMOs, just try to be constructive as the game continues to develop in the coming years.

[JeanNYGUARD]

From what I've read in the FAQ and talk on the forums in general, STO has some serious issues that need to be addressed, primarily Factions.

Right now the Federation is composed of humans, and many other generic races, and the Klingons for some reason are now hostile and have their own very unrealistic set of Allies.


Federation
-Humans
-Generic

Klingon Empire
-Klingons
-Gorn
-Nausicans


The Klingons are now hostile!? lol

The Klingons have always been hostile since first contact with them.

Around 2260's - Klingons nearly go to war with The Federation
2360's - Klingon Civil War
2370's - Klingon's go to war with The Cardassian Union
2370's - Klingon's go to war with The Federation
2370's - The Dominion War

*Alternate Time Line 'Yesterday's Enterprise' 2340's to 2360's - Klingon's at war with The Federation

The Klingons have always been a violent and hostile race.



Federation
-Humans
-Generic

Klingon Empire
-Klingons
-Gorn
-Nausicans


Federation includes:
- Vulcans
- Andorians
- Betazoidians
- Tellarites

& hundreds / thousands more races

Klingons include:
- Klingons

All others are conquered races and dont have the same rights.

FYI: There is no evidence to suggest their is a alliance between The Klingon's, Gorn or Nausican's


With Chancellor Martok and Warf at the top, they wouldn't war against the Federation
-Their allies are ridiculous....
-It's a lazy idea
-Next thing we know, Captain Janeway is going to be the new Borg Queen.


Also Chancellor Martok might not be Chancellor by 2409... he didnt like being Chancellor even during or after The Dominion War.

Lt. Commander Worf... last I heard was stationed on The U.S.S. Enterprise NCC 1701 - 2379 (Star Trek Nemesis)

[JeanNYGUARD]

FACTION I

-Federation (With it's various sub-races)
-Klingon
-Gorn
-Hydran

VS

FACTION II

-Romulans (Remans as optional race) (Combination of ships)
-Cardassians
-Lyrans
-Tholians

EXPANSION FACTION

-Dominion (Son'a as new leaders) (Fleet consists of Jem'hadar and Son'a ships)
-Breen
-ISC
-New race??

GALACTIC THREATS

Current - Borg
Expansion - Species 8472

Federation allied with The Klingons, Gorn & Hydran (Isnt this a ficitional race from Starfleet Command?) doesnt sound realisitic. I can see a alliance with The Klingons... because The Federation has been allied for decades with The Klingons, but not with The Gorn and The Hydrans are a ficitional race.

The Romulans wont ally with The Cardassians especially after The Dominion war. Dont even think about putting The Tholians in the mix with them either... wont happen. (Lyrans are another ficitional race from Starfleet Command)

And The Sona in charge of The Dominion ... thats not realistic at all. The Sona played a small part in The Dominion War. The last I heard they were guarding a sector in or near Cardassian space. Plus The Sona dont have many ships... they are a small power. (ISC is another Starfleet Command fictional race)

The Borg... are a threat but not as bad as they were in 2366. By 2409 they recovered from the severe damage to Unimatrix Zero One and the Transwarp network... but I doubt they are as much a threat as they originally were.

Species 8472 and The Federation left off on ok terms. Peace was Not reached however ... a dialogue was reached between USS Voyager and Species 8472 which would possibly avoid war.

[Xidane]

Here's my 2 cents, and I'm sure it has already been said in one of these responses.

The Klingons seemingly want to get back to the days of conquest and expansion that characterize their species. The Orion, Gorn, and Nausicans are not simply allies, some if not all of them have been conquered and forced into military service. Cannon fodder, much like the Remans during the Dominion War.

Also, there aren't problems with video game incarnations of franchises like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. The problem is specific individuals who are too stubborn in their personal view of said franchise to accept its growth into bold new markets ie the MMO.

Take Harry Potter for example, when the films came out you had all these geeks with painted forehead lightning bolts screaming "HERESY" at the top of their lungs. I'm sorry if you, like many on these boards, don't like something about this game. Just realize that their are a lot more people who are really looking forward to it and think it looks quite enjoyable.

If the Gorn Orians and Nausicaans are conquered and forced to fight as cannon fodder, how will their players be captains of Klingon ships??

That doesn't make much sense, chances are they've formed some sort of alliance with the Klingons.

[Xidane]

The Klingons are now hostile!? lol

The Klingons have always been hostile since first contact with them.

Around 2260's - Klingons nearly go to war with The Federation
2360's - Klingon Civil War
2370's - Klingon's go to war with The Cardassian Union
2370's - Klingon's go to war with The Federation
2370's - The Dominion War

*Alternate Time Line 'Yesterday's Enterprise' 2340's to 2360's - Klingon's at war with The Federation

The Klingons have always been a violent and hostile race.




Federation includes:
- Vulcans
- Andorians
- Betazoidians
- Tellarites

& hundreds / thousands more races

Klingons include:
- Klingons

All others are conquered races and dont have the same rights.

FYI: There is no evidence to suggest their is a alliance between The Klingon's, Gorn or Nausican's



Also Chancellor Martok might not be Chancellor by 2409... he didnt like being Chancellor even during or after The Dominion War.

Lt. Commander Worf... last I heard was stationed on The U.S.S. Enterprise NCC 1701 - 2379 (Star Trek Nemesis)


The Klingons built a very strong relationship with the Federation during and after the Dominion War, when they fought alongside them. However I have new theories on how they may have lost all of that.

Before I get into that, several people have brought up that Worf was stationed aboard the Enterprise in Nemesis, I'd like to correct that before anyone else says it. Worf was only on the Enterprise for Commander Riker's wedding, when the ship went on active duty, he assumed his traditional station.


MY THEORY ON THE NEW HOSTILITIES/ALLIANCES

Judging by the shift in power for the Romulans, it's possible Queen Donatra will gain enough power to form an alliance with the Federation. Another interesting even was the mysterious Gorn attack on the Klingons, it's not like them to seek confrontation with others unless their territory is violated. It's an interesting coincidence that this attack would follow the Klingon invasion of Romulan space, I suspect that the Gorn attack was engineered by Sela's Romulan faction to take the Klingon's attention off of them while they quelled their own internal problems.

My guess is that around the same time this ruse will be exposed, the Federation and Donatra's Romulan half will have become allies. The Klingons and Gorn who have hated the Romulans for centuries, but never more than now, will see this a betrayal, and thus the peace between them and the Federation will end.

[Xidane]

Federation allied with The Klingons, Gorn & Hydran (Isnt this a ficitional race from Starfleet Command?) doesnt sound realisitic. I can see a alliance with The Klingons... because The Federation has been allied for decades with The Klingons, but not with The Gorn and The Hydrans are a ficitional race.

The Romulans wont ally with The Cardassians especially after The Dominion war. Dont even think about putting The Tholians in the mix with them either... wont happen. (Lyrans are another ficitional race from Starfleet Command)

And The Sona in charge of The Dominion ... thats not realistic at all. The Sona played a small part in The Dominion War. The last I heard they were guarding a sector in or near Cardassian space. Plus The Sona dont have many ships... they are a small power. (ISC is another Starfleet Command fictional race)

The Borg... are a threat but not as bad as they were in 2366. By 2409 they recovered from the severe damage to Unimatrix Zero One and the Transwarp network... but I doubt they are as much a threat as they originally were.

Species 8472 and The Federation left off on ok terms. Peace was Not reached however ... a dialogue was reached between USS Voyager and Species 8472 which would possibly avoid war.

The Gorn are not a SFC only race...Hydrans Lyrans and ISC are, but that does not at all say that they cannot be used in a new, assuming copyright wont be too much of a problem. They would add major diversity to the game in terms of story and strategic value. They each have their own distinct weapons.

About those alliances you questioned...

The Gorn and Hydrans were known allies of the Federation in SFC 1 and 2, the Gorn were also on good terms with the Federation in other fiction that this game is being based on.

The Romulans and Tholians already have a good diplomatic relationship, so it's not impossible, especially with the shifting of power in the galaxy, they would need allies.

Romulans and Cardassians have worked together in the past, and the Romulans are well known for choosing sides based on mutual advantage themselves, they had signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion before Sisko and Garak tricked them out of it. If the Romulans needed an ally, they could have easily promised to help Cardassia in it's recovery through expansion. Cardassians and Romulans load Klingons far more than each other, and Gorn and Kliingons hate Romulans and Cardassians. So it works...

Lyrans, being the wealthiest of the 4 allies, would seek to retain it's greatness by enlisting these beleaguered factions into an alliance of convenience. Their philosophy being, "Any enemy of my enemy, is my friend"


As it stands, two factions 2 main races, and several tag along races will be what STO consists of, hopefully they'll make it interesting.

I almost forgot the Son'a part, it is 100% conceivable for them to take over the Dominion in the time allotted.

-They're masters of genetic manipulation,it's within their power to do exactly what the Founders did to their servant races, possibly starting with the white itself.

-They supplied the Dominion with it during their time in the Alpha quadrant.

-They could have taken advantage of the Dominion's vulnerability during the changes going on in the Great Link.

-It is because they are so limited in number that they would need to usurp control over the Dominion.

PS: The Borg currently are the big galactic threat in this game, I didn't just make up

[TruthSeer]

Another interesting even was the mysterious Gorn attack on the Klingons, it's not like them to seek confrontation with others unless their territory is violated. It's an interesting coincidence that this attack would follow the Klingon invasion of Romulan space, I suspect that the Gorn attack was engineered by Sela's Romulan faction to take the Klingon's attention off of them while they quelled their own internal problems.


I would love this to be a precursor to a new Dominion invasion, with the Dominion trying to positions of all the Alpha Quadrant players where they want them to be.

[willriker09]

If the Gorn Orians and Nausicaans are conquered and forced to fight as cannon fodder, how will their players be captains of Klingon ships??

That doesn't make much sense, chances are they've formed some sort of alliance with the Klingons.

My information is based on what was taken directly from reading the article in the recent Game Informer issue with Star Trek Online featured on the cover...AKA it is factual.

[Xidane]

My information is based on what was taken directly from reading the article in the recent Game Informer issue with Star Trek Online featured on the cover...AKA it is factual.

You mean their speculation, if it's not on the site, it's not factual. Game Informer has no access to such information, and they'd be in a bit trouble for exposing said information before it's due time. The story of how the Klingons allied races became so, has yet to be told in "The Path To 2409", and that hasn't happened yet, so I don't think so.

I checked the site, they had info from way back when STO was still being worked on by Perpetual, not even Cryptic, so that info is WAY out of date.

[Xidane]

If that were true, it would mean that the Klingon races are not playable, which in tern would mean that the Klingon faction would have only one playable race. Do you know what means...lame... no will play a game like that. Cryptic could not possibly be that stupid, that would defy all reason.

[djnattyd]

If that were true, it would mean that the Klingon races are not playable, which in tern would mean that the Klingon faction would have only one playable race. Do you know what means...lame... no will play a game like that. Cryptic could not possibly be that stupid, that would defy all reason.

What on Earth brings you to that conclusion?

Because a race has been conquered it means that their not playable?

[Xidane]

What on Earth brings you to that conclusion?

Because a race has been conquered it means that their not playable?

Klingons themselves have a hard time getting command of warships, especially those of poorer houses. Based on that, what do you think the odds are of an enslaved Gorn or Nausicaan getting one.

No ship means no race, as ships are a pinnacle part of the game. As content as I would be to be a soldier and using a Gorn, it wouldn't work in a game like this. Because ships are so important, and if the races are indeed conquered and cannot use them, that means they're probably just AI crew.

Personally I don't believe any of this, they wouldn't be that stupid, but according to the comments I was replying to, they are.

[slydragon4]

Klingons themselves have a hard time getting command of warships, especially those of poorer houses. Based on that, what do you think the odds are of an enslaved Gorn or Nausicaan getting one.

No ship means no race, as ships are a pinnacle part of the game. As content as I would be to be a soldier and using a Gorn, it wouldn't work in a game like this. Because ships are so important, and if the races are indeed conquered and cannot use them, that means they're probably just AI crew.

Personally I don't believe any of this, they wouldn't be that stupid, but based on the comments I was replying to, they are.

Why are you so certain that the Gorn, Orions, and Nausicaans won't have their own ships? I mean, seriously. Why, why on earth, would you expect the entire Klingon-allied faction to make do with... what is it, 9 different models of ship total vs. the Federation's PILE O SHIPS?

Sure, we haven't heard anything one way or another... but on the other hand we haven't heard anything one way or another!

All the Fed-side will be Starfleet and have Starfleet ships and equipment - that's just a basic thing. The Klingon factional side, which will be composed of more than just Klingons, remember has the opportunity to have a lot of technological variety. Heck, I can make an argument for it being a truly terrible strategic choice for the Klingons to utterly obliterate their conquered races' attack capabilities, especially when said capabilities can be pressganged to benefit the Empire without risking precious true Klingon assets.

Klingons are honorable warriors, yes, but never forget that they define what's honorable and what's not. It's honorable to lie in cloaked wait for ships and pounce on them from behind, smashing them while they try to recover their dead or survivors... because that means the Klingons WIN. WIN = HONOR.

On the other side of things, Ferengi and such can be playable races without being members of the Federation - there are Starfleet officers from non-Fed species. Bajorans as of TNG and throughout DS9: not Federation but still frequently in Starfleet. Worf: not Federation but still in Starfleet. Nog: not Federation but still in Starfleet. So discussions of whether or not Ferenginar (for example) will join the Federation is kind of moot - Ferengi can be in Starfleet regardless of the status of their world.

[Wyrven]

Klingons themselves have a hard time getting command of warships, especially those of poorer houses. Based on that, what do you think the odds are of an enslaved Gorn or Nausicaan getting one.

No ship means no race, as ships are a pinnacle part of the game. As content as I would be to be a soldier and using a Gorn, it wouldn't work in a game like this. Because ships are so important, and if the races are indeed conquered and cannot use them, that means they're probably just AI crew.

Personally I don't believe any of this, they wouldn't be that stupid, but according to the comments I was replying to, they are.

If understand the Cryptic FAQ right and the storyline they seem to be building. The Federation and Klingons are not engaged in hostilities with each other. Tensions are high but no war as yet. Also I believe that Klingons are to be a playable race. This may upset some people but so far the story line is using the Romulans as the center of unstability and conflict. Initially I do not see Romulans as a playable race, so be a vulcan and get ur pointy ears. At some point more than likely all races will be playable. Plus they have pretty much said you will get to design your own. My advise is to put the fangs back in my Gorn friend and wait and see. More than likely Klingons will be among the first playable races. Hell they are just to loud to ignore.

[Xidane]

Why are you so certain that the Gorn, Orions, and Nausicaans won't have their own ships? I mean, seriously. Why, why on earth, would you expect the entire Klingon-allied faction to make do with... what is it, 9 different models of ship total vs. the Federation's PILE O SHIPS?

Sure, we haven't heard anything one way or another... but on the other hand we haven't heard anything one way or another!

All the Fed-side will be Starfleet and have Starfleet ships and equipment - that's just a basic thing. The Klingon factional side, which will be composed of more than just Klingons, remember has the opportunity to have a lot of technological variety. Heck, I can make an argument for it being a truly terrible strategic choice for the Klingons to utterly obliterate their conquered races' attack capabilities, especially when said capabilities can be pressganged to benefit the Empire without risking precious true Klingon assets.

Klingons are honorable warriors, yes, but never forget that they define what's honorable and what's not. It's honorable to lie in cloaked wait for ships and pounce on them from behind, smashing them while they try to recover their dead or survivors... because that means the Klingons WIN. WIN = HONOR.

On the other side of things, Ferengi and such can be playable races without being members of the Federation - there are Starfleet officers from non-Fed species. Bajorans as of TNG and throughout DS9: not Federation but still frequently in Starfleet. Worf: not Federation but still in Starfleet. Nog: not Federation but still in Starfleet. So discussions of whether or not Ferenginar (for example) will join the Federation is kind of moot - Ferengi can be in Starfleet regardless of the status of their world.

You're not understanding...

Read what I've been responding to --> the idea of Klingons CONQUERING them, not ALLYING with them<--

I already know they didn't conquer them. I've been arguing against it by saying that the other playable races of the Empire could not have command of ships if they were slaves, thus making them NPCs, and that Cryptic would not be stupid enough to do that.

Read a post before you comment on it.

[Loekii]

The Gorn are not a SFC only race...Hydrans Lyrans and ISC are

Actually they are originally from the TT/Boardgame, Starfleet Battles, which was created back in the 80's.

[Xidane]

If understand the Cryptic FAQ right and the storyline they seem to be building. The Federation and Klingons are not engaged in hostilities with each other. Tensions are high but no war as yet. Also I believe that Klingons are to be a playable race. This may upset some people but so far the story line is using the Romulans as the center of unstability and conflict. Initially I do not see Romulans as a playable race, so be a vulcan and get ur pointy ears. At some point more than likely all races will be playable. Plus they have pretty much said you will get to design your own. My advise is to put the fangs back in my Gorn friend and wait and see. More than likely Klingons will be among the first playable races. Hell they are just to loud to ignore.

No no lol, I know that, read what I was replying to. He was saying that the Gorn/Nasicaans/Orians were conquered, and Gameinformer stated it. I'm saying that's wrong, because in order to be a playable race, you need to be able to captain a ship, in order to have a ship on Klingon Empire, you have to be a Klingon. Hence why I say that Cryptic could not possibly be stupid enough to make the only other races on the Empire NPCs, thus making Klingons the only playable race on the faction.

If they were, I know I'd leave in a heartbeat.

PS: The FAQ also says that PvP will consist of faction vs faction, (Klingons vs Feds) so they're pretty much at war, The Romulans seem poised to ally with the Federation at this point. Queen Donatra is something of a revolutionary.

[Xidane]

Actually they are originally from the TT/Boardgame, Starfleet Battles, which was created back in the 80's.

Lyrans, Hydrans and ISC were?? Hah, I never knew that, thank you for supporting my point further. I loved those races in SFC 1 and 2, I'd kill to use them in STO.

[slydragon4]

You're not understanding...

Read what I've been responding to --> the idea of Klingons CONQUERING them, not ALLYING with them<--

I already know they didn't conquer them. I've been arguing against it by saying that the other playable races of the Empire could not have command of ships if they were slaves, thus making them NPCs, and that Cryptic would not be stupid enough to do that.

Read a post before you comment on it.

Yeah, I did actually read. I've read this entire thread. You're the one who's not reading here.

It doesn't matter in the end whether they're conquered races or not - either way I can make a case for them still having/using their own ships.

If they're simply allied, of course they'll use their own ships.

If they're conquered, THE SHIPS PROBABLY STILL EXIST. So why wouldn't the Klingons press them into service? Destroying them would be STUPID. Throw them into the front lines and get them destroyed that way, where the Empire benefits from their destruction without losing any of its own warriors or assets. Thus: entirely playable, rife with internal plot possibilities, AND providing variety of ships.

The Klingons are many things, but stupid enough to throw away valuable wartime resources? I think not.

[Loekii]

Didn't the Mongols do exactly that....conquer a people and then add those people into their military? I think Alexander the Great took a similar approach -- empowering the conquered people by adding them to the Empire.

I am just as worried that there will be a cheesy storyline for the Klingon Faction, but I am open to the notion of conquest absorption so long as it is well though out.

[Wyrven]

No no lol, I know that, read what I was replying to. He was saying that the Gorn/Nasicaans/Orians were conquered, and Gameinformer stated it. I'm saying that's wrong, because in order to be a playable race, you need to be able to captain a ship, in order to have a ship on Klingon Empire, you have to be a Klingon. Hence why I say that Cryptic could not possibly be stupid enough to make the only other races on the Empire NPCs, thus making Klingons the only playable race on the faction.

If they were, I know I'd leave in a heartbeat.

PS: The FAQ also says that PvP will consist of faction vs faction, (Klingons vs Feds) so they're pretty much at war, The Romulans seem poised to ally with the Federation at this point. Queen Donatra is something of a revolutionary.

Ok I am caught up, and I feel that each major faction is going to have its multitude of minor races.
And here is my 2 cents: The Federation is supposedly the least racist therefore internal faction bias is fairly high, thus resulting in easier advancement, trade, repair access to tech. etc. The other major factions are not so forth coming therefore internal faction bias must be earned by missions, kills, etc. And the reverse should apply to a Klingon capt. trying to get repairs at a Nasicaan base. And I have to agree, the idea of the Klingons conquering the Nasicaans is absurd, they are to much alike, if anything they're best buddies.

[Xidane]

Yeah, I did actually read. I've read this entire thread. You're the one who's not reading here.

It doesn't matter in the end whether they're conquered races or not - either way I can make a case for them still having/using their own ships.

If they're simply allied, of course they'll use their own ships.

If they're conquered, THE SHIPS PROBABLY STILL EXIST. So why wouldn't the Klingons press them into service? Destroying them would be STUPID. Throw them into the front lines and get them destroyed that way, where the Empire benefits from their destruction without losing any of its own warriors or assets. Thus: entirely playable, rife with internal plot possibilities, AND providing variety of ships.

The Klingons are many things, but stupid enough to throw away valuable wartime resources? I think not.

They wont do that, conquered races do not get to keep their ships, they're absorbed into the empire, and based on Klingon tradition, they don't get command of squat. We're not talking about Agamemnon of Greece or Xerxes of Persia, Klingons do not enlist armies to serve them, they outright conquer them. All authority figures are executed and an overseer is placed in charge. Those races would be cannon fodder, or laborers, with KLINGON commanders and no less.

Destroying them is stupid, but Klingons are not known for their reasoning skills, and as much as I would love to see a combination of ships in the fleet, I just don't see that happening. They would merrily dismantle the enemy fleet's remains for resources.

If the Klingons allied with them, as in not conquering them, then there would and should be a chance of their ships being in the game.

[Xidane]

Ok I am caught up, and I feel that each major faction is going to have its multitude of minor races.
And here is my 2 cents: The Federation is supposedly the least racist therefore internal faction bias is fairly high, thus resulting in easier advancement, trade, repair access to tech. etc. The other major factions are not so forth coming therefore internal faction bias must be earned by missions, kills, etc. And the reverse should apply to a Klingon capt. trying to get repairs at a Nasicaan base. And I have to agree, the idea of the Klingons conquering the Nasicaans is absurd, they are to much alike, if anything they're best buddies.

Agreed.

The Federation being more open to diplomacy and less driven by blood feuds, would be willing to give the new Romulan Empire a chance, where as the Klingons and Gorn both have a mutual and immovable hatred for the Romulans. They would see it as a disgusting betrayal by the Federation.

That being said, it would be likely for the Gorn and Klingons to forge an alliance based partially on that.

[Wyrven]

Didn't the Mongols do exactly that....conquer a people and then add those people into their military? I think Alexander the Great took a similar approach -- empowering the conquered people by adding them to the Empire.

I am just as worried that there will be a cheesy storyline for the Klingon Faction, but I am open to the notion of conquest absorption so long as it is well though out.


Hate to tell you this but Alexander the Great never let any of his conqured peoples rise in power within his army. They remained behind to pay tribute to Greece that it.

[Tranchera]

I know I'm late on this, but I don't get what "makes sense" about the Gorn siding with the Federation.

[slydragon4]

They wont do that, conquered races do not get to keep their ships, they're absorbed into the empire, and based on Klingon tradition, they don't get command of squat. We're not talking about Agamemnon of Greece or Xerxes of Persia, Klingons do not enlist armies to serve them, they outright conquer them. All authority figures are executed and an overseer is placed in charge. Those races would be cannon fodder, or laborers, with KLINGON commanders and no less.


You don't actually know that, you just assume it. In all of established hard canon, the Klingons never actually HAVE conquered another race and taken their territory. The only place they've done it is in the distant past and their own histories - which, let's be honest, are embellished and distorted to appear 'heroic' rather than be truthful.

There's nothing to say that a particularly canny or tactically devious Klingon leader wouldn't think 'You know, that plan is a massive waste of resources that we 1) can't waste and 2) should keep for our own use anyway. We'll do this instead and hey - if you want to argue with me I'm HAPPY to kick your ass all up and down the Council chamber. As is our way.'

If the setup is good, anything can be explained. You just have to be willing to entertain the possibility that an explanation is possible.

So I can be happy with either situation - alliance or conquering. I look forward to seeing the story develop however it will, and I enjoy speculating and arguing with people in the meantime. The stance I see everywhere, of 'everything will suck forever and always and there's no way any of this will ever ever ever be even a little good or interesting,' is not one I subscribe to.

[Xidane]

Didn't the Mongols do exactly that....conquer a people and then add those people into their military? I think Alexander the Great took a similar approach -- empowering the conquered people by adding them to the Empire.

I am just as worried that there will be a cheesy storyline for the Klingon Faction, but I am open to the notion of conquest absorption so long as it is well though out.



It would have to be very well thought out, given the Klingon's history, but there is a great deal of time in between the most recent events of "the Path to 2409" and the time STO take place in. If they take them over soon, and later come into conflict, it's possible that the Gorn, Orians and Nasicaans earn the Klingon's respect in battle. It would take time, but there does seem to be enough of that. Personally, I'd rather the Empire's Fleet consist of Klingon,Gorn,Orion and Nausicaan ships in a joint partnership of sorts.

[Loekii]

While I understand your opinion, I disagree with the way it sounds as if they were 'fact'.

You may not want the Klingons to act like the Mongol Empire -- and enlist conquered species into its miiltary service, but that is just your opinion.

In Star Fleet Battles, Klingon ships were actually crewed with such conquered races -- with only Klingon Officers. This is from a game that has the permission and authority to use the ST License.

So I would not say it is such a far fetched idea in STO.

Granted, I would like to see some very strong fictional background for such a situation -- which I don't currently see in the 'Road To....' articles (hopefully I will be proven mistaken). While I disagree with some of your opinion about this topic, I do think it sets a good example of why Cryptic needs to pay close attention to the BG of the Klingon Faction -- instead of tossing out some weak explanation.

[Wyrven]

Agreed.

The Federation being more open to diplomacy and less driven by blood feuds, would be willing to give the new Romulan Empire a chance, where as the Klingons and Gorn both have a mutual and immovable hatred for the Romulans. They would see it as a disgusting betrayal by the Federation.

That being said, it would be likely for the Gorn and Klingons to forge an alliance based partially on that.

The story line already put forward shows tension between Q'onus and the Federation over retaking territory. The basis behind the Federation has always negotian first and last. Ok the have some good guns, so they are not completely dense. The Klingons, Nasicaans, Gorn etc. are warlike. They would see a weakend Romulan Empire as a ripe target and want to take back what is thiers, with maybe a bit more for good measure. Hey you can bet the Romulans would. I agree with Xidane, this could be viewed as a stab in the back, and the best the Federation could hope for is that the other factions tear each other apart before coming after them. As Cryptic says, "This is a universe at war" I think by the time STO is released. No where outside your own factions territory is going to be very safe. Could make PvE very very interresting

[Loekii]

It would have to be very well thought out, given the Klingon's history, but there is a great deal of time in between the most recent events of "the Path to 2409" and the time STO take place in. If they take them over soon, and later come into conflict, it's possible that the Gorn, Orians and Nasicaans earn the Klingon's respect in battle. It would take time, but there does seem to be enough of that. Personally, I'd rather the Empire's Fleet consist of Klingon,Gorn,Orion and Nausicaan ships in a joint partnership of sorts.

We agree the fiction needs to be believable, and not some cheap comic book storyline.

It can be done in a way that is credible with the fiction, or it can be done cheaply. Hopefully it will be the former.

[Xidane]

You don't actually know that, you just assume it. In all of established hard canon, the Klingons never actually HAVE conquered another race and taken their territory. The only place they've done it is in the distant past and their own histories - which, let's be honest, are embellished and distorted to appear 'heroic' rather than be truthful.

There's nothing to say that a particularly canny or tactically devious Klingon leader wouldn't think 'You know, that plan is a massive waste of resources that we 1) can't waste and 2) should keep for our own use anyway. We'll do this instead and hey - if you want to argue with me I'm HAPPY to kick your ass all up and down the Council chamber. As is our way.'

If the setup is good, anything can be explained. You just have to be willing to entertain the possibility that an explanation is possible.

So I can be happy with either situation - alliance or conquering. I look forward to seeing the story develop however it will, and I enjoy speculating and arguing with people in the meantime. The stance I see everywhere, of 'everything will suck forever and always and there's no way any of this will ever ever ever be even a little good or interesting,' is not one I subscribe to.


I do know that, based on recent Klingon history, the invasion of Organia, and the Cardassian Union. The only thing that kept the Cardassians from suffering the full fate of Klingon rule, was the threat of the Dominion. Worf even stated himself, that if the Empire returned to the old ways, all political leaders would be executed and an overseer would be placed to keep the conquered in line. Cardassians conquering others might allow collaborators, but not the Klingons, they'd spit in the faces of such cowards.

There are possible explanations given the time, but it's preferable and frankly more clever, that they have an alliance formed from a series of interesting events.

[Wyrven]

I do know that, based on recent Klingon history, the invasion of Organia, and the Cardassian Union. The only thing that kept the Cardassians from suffering the full fate of Klingon rule, was the threat of the Dominion. Worf even stated himself, that if the Empire returned to the old ways, all political leaders would be executed and an overseer would be placed to keep the conquered in line. Cardassians conquering others might allow collaborators, but not the Klingons, they'd spit in the faces of such cowards.

There are possible explanations given the time, but it's preferable and frankly more clever, that they have an alliance formed from a series of interesting events.

I am sure Cryptic will build a decent story line, the one offered already has alot of promise. Just the mear idea that the Klingons have pulled thier ambassador has me going.

[djnattyd]

Xidane, you do know that Klingons don't keep slaves don't you? They see it as dishonorable

Also, on the whole "conquered races have no chance of being playable" that you have going.

Did it not occur to you that when the Romans conquered Europe, they enlisted the people of the occupied countries into their armies. So did the Nazis

And finally,

what makes you the all seeing, all knowing STO Oracle?

You have the same amount of information that everyone else on this forum has and yet, you seem to think that you are the ultimate authority on this game and what you say is the undeniable truth.

[onesoul1982]

I just have a question?

Does it really matter? Honestly, if someone is this hot headed that STO is not fitting their grand vision of Star Trek, what good can come from bantering back and forth between each other.

It has come to be my belief, that certain individuals can be very narrow-minded when it comes to someone infringing upon what they believe to be true. When in reality, "truth" is not static, but fluid.

And if that doesn't help you, well look at it this way...Multiple "realities" :D

[Wyrven]

OK lets all take a deep breath, seems to be getting a little touchy here.
This is after all a forum and by its nature promots debate. Everyone has an opinon, we all know what those are like. But that doesnt mean we have to behave like one.

Let Cryptic build the story line. And buy the statement they have already made. no matter what race you play...even the one you make up will be captian of his/her own ship. So in my translation book that means all race are open. I kinda question the Borg being playable, unless they are played 7 of 9 style and disconnected from the hive.

[KO_Gilligan]

I just have a question?

Does it really matter? Honestly, if someone is this hot headed that STO is not fitting their grand vision of Star Trek, what good can come from bantering back and forth between each other.

It has come to be my belief, that certain individuals can be very narrow-minded when it comes to someone infringing upon what they believe to be true. When in reality, "truth" is not static, but fluid.

And if that doesn't help you, well look at it this way...Multiple "realities" :D

STO's biggest issue... people coming to this sight and seeing this ridiculous geek fight with the title of "Star Trek Online's Biggest Issue" - In my opinion a flame inducing title that is worse than this discussion - if that's even possible.



- I'm ashamed, and would like to warn people that the disgruntled experts of Star Trek Lore won't come and try to ruin it for people in the game because they are in disgust of a game world that won't let them live their dream come true...

But in fact they might.

How on earth do people justify these complex webs of incoherent speculation anyway? This is exactly why Enterprise get's bashed. This is exactly how they bashed Leonard Nimoy back in the day.

[djnattyd]

STO's biggest issue... people coming to this sight and seeing this ridiculous geek fight with the title of "Star Trek Online's Biggest Issue" - In my opinion a flame inducing title that is worse than this discussion - if that's even possible.



- I'm ashamed, and would like to warn people that the disgruntled experts of Star Trek Lore won't come and try to ruin it for people in the game because they are in disgust of a game world that won't let them live their dream come true...

But in fact they might.

How on earth do people justify these complex webs of incoherent speculation anyway? This is exactly why Enterprise get's bashed. This is exactly how they bashed Leonard Nimoy back in the day.

I agree KO, and although my post above seemed a little "flametastic" (yeah that's right, it's a new word) it wasn't meant that way.

I'm sure that most people will agree with me that it gets a little annoying when you try to explain to someone the facts that we have so far learned from the Dev's only to be told "NO... NO YOU'RE WRONG, CRYPTIC ARE WRONG, I'M RIGHT!"

As much as i like ST, i don't see the changes that CS are making as wrong because, as has been stated by Paramount Studios themselves "canon isn't something that is set in stone" and if CS want to develop a game that has the Klingons ruling the Gorn then so be it.

At the end of the day Star Trek is FICTION which means that it's entire history can be re-written without any affect on the real world, those of you that don't belive this fact have two choices. You can either play the game when it's released or you can not play the game. There is no "Big Issue".

[KO_Gilligan]

I agree KO, and although my post above seemed a little "flametastic" (yeah that's right, it's a new word) it wasn't meant that way.

I'm sure that most people will agree with me that it gets a little annoying when you try to explain to someone the facts that we have so far learned from the Dev's only to be told "NO... NO YOU'RE WRONG, CRYPTIC ARE WRONG, I'M RIGHT!"

As much as i like ST, i don't see the changes that CS are making as wrong because, as has been stated by Paramount Studios themselves "canon isn't something that is set in stone" and if CS want to develop a game that has the Klingons ruling the Gorn then so be it.

At the end of the day Star Trek is FICTION which means that it's entire history can be re-written without any affect on the real world, those of you that don't belive this fact have two choices. You can either play the game when it's released or you can not play the game. There is no "Big Issue".

So far you've ben pretty much spot-on

but that's just my opinion ;)

[Toaster87]

At the end of the day Star Trek is FICTION which means that it's entire history can be re-written without any affect on the real world, those of you that don't belive this fact have two choices. You can either play the game when it's released or you can not play the game. There is no "Big Issue".

Thats it un a nutshell

[Xidane]

Xidane, you do know that Klingons don't keep slaves don't you? They see it as dishonorable

Also, on the whole "conquered races have no chance of being playable" that you have going.

Did it not occur to you that when the Romans conquered Europe, they enlisted the people of the occupied countries into their armies. So did the Nazis

And finally,

what makes you the all seeing, all knowing STO Oracle?

You have the same amount of information that everyone else on this forum has and yet, you seem to think that you are the ultimate authority on this game and what you say is the undeniable truth.

That's funny, are we talking about the same Klingons who wait cloaked in the debris fields of their enemy's fleets, waiting like vultures for survivors to poke their heads out, who attack medical vessels, who assault Cardassian tailors, who bully weaker races whenever they can.... With a few rare exceptions, most Klingons are viscous savages like Gowron and Martok's son. Don't confuse average Klingons or their culture for Worf, especially if they've returned to the old ways. The greatest honor for the vast majority of Klingons, is victory and nothing less.

If you read my previous argument, I already used two historical references not unlike the ones you gave, if read anything I've said, you'd know that it occurred to me, but we're not talking about humans here. Although Star Trek races share many parallels with cultures and stories of Earth, they're not a total copy of them. Klingons don't function as the Romans or Nazis did, it's proven by their most recent occupations ie, Organia and almost Cardassia. Taking hostages and executing 200 of them is hardly honorable, but it was done on Organia none the less. Even if they did act like Earth cultures, they wouldn't give the right of commanding a starship and an advancing military career to a member of a conquered race, when they won't even give it members of their own race who are of lesser houses. Why would anyone give a powerful battleship, or command of a fleet to someone who in all likelihood hates you and would overthrow you the first chance they could get. That's the flaw of Empires or those who mistreat people in general, they only make more enemies. Once again, keep in mind these are not humans, they're Klingons, they don't share the same moral/human sense of honor that influences Worf's life. It would take more than 30 years to wear out that kind of hatred, unless Klingons are using Ketracel White to force obedience.

Rofl to the Oracle comment, I think I'll make that my signature using my character name, "Neltharidan,the Star Trek Oracle has spoken!" To be honest it's not the difference in information that counts so much, it's how it's used. I know what I saw in all the Star Trek series that I watched, and I understand their nature based on what I've seen. Klingon honor is a changing thing, and if they're conquering these races, then it's back to being an antagonist's honor.

[Xidane]

I just have a question?

Does it really matter? Honestly, if someone is this hot headed that STO is not fitting their grand vision of Star Trek, what good can come from bantering back and forth between each other.

It has come to be my belief, that certain individuals can be very narrow-minded when it comes to someone infringing upon what they believe to be true. When in reality, "truth" is not static, but fluid.

And if that doesn't help you, well look at it this way...Multiple "realities" :D

A lot of people have waited a very long time for this sort of game to come out, it has the hardcore fans a bit on edge. You're right though, this arguing for the sake of arguing is getting us nowhere, however I do feel it's important that Cryptic see our opinions.

[Toaster87]

I need to ask somethin. Is it only the alliance between the races thats causeing this debate?

[Xidane]

I agree KO, and although my post above seemed a little "flametastic" (yeah that's right, it's a new word) it wasn't meant that way.

I'm sure that most people will agree with me that it gets a little annoying when you try to explain to someone the facts that we have so far learned from the Dev's only to be told "NO... NO YOU'RE WRONG, CRYPTIC ARE WRONG, I'M RIGHT!"

As much as i like ST, i don't see the changes that CS are making as wrong because, as has been stated by Paramount Studios themselves "canon isn't something that is set in stone" and if CS want to develop a game that has the Klingons ruling the Gorn then so be it.

At the end of the day Star Trek is FICTION which means that it's entire history can be re-written without any affect on the real world, those of you that don't belive this fact have two choices. You can either play the game when it's released or you can not play the game. There is no "Big Issue".

No offense but you're kind of out of the loop here by saying that, you clearly didn't read the posts I was replying to. Someone else started the theory throwing, I just pounced on it. The reason why I do that, is to make sure that the lore stays consistent, that stupid interpretations aren't made a reality. Yes, we only have speculation, it's because we're in the dark that we feel the necessity to give, venerate, or trash ideas of how things should be. What if Cryptic actually did do something stupid like make the Gorn and Nasicaans nps crew characters, and only Klingons were playable... Obviously I'm going to attack the stupidity of such an idea, even if they're not doing it. These forums are here to give them an idea of what people want, what they're doing right, and what they're doing wrong, it's up to us to express how we feel about these ideas, including the ones we add ourselves.

Star Trek may be fiction, but it's popular fiction that a huge number of people take seriously, so it's not smart to deviate too much, or at least to deviate incorrectly. Star Trek is diverse, so the game must be too, so if someone encourages an idea that might lead to alternate races being cut out of the Klingon faction, I'm going to light it up,

[Xidane]

I need to ask somethin. Is it only the alliance between the races thats causeing this debate?

This debate has been all over the place, it started with me being annoyed that weren't enough races in the game. I trashed the idea of having factions with different races that didn't have their own fleets. I was also annoyed at key players such as the Romulans and Cardassians, not being playable by 2409.

Lately though, the debate has shifted more to what Cryptic is doing rather than what I would have liked to see. Some people suggest new ideas, or interpretations of what Crypitc might do. Whenever I see an idea that agree with, I either cheer it on, or add to it, and if I see a really stupid idea that would limit the game, weather it be speculation or fact, I jump on it.

It's become more of a place to suggest problems an solutions for Cryptic to read and get feedback from.

[Toaster87]

This debate has been all over the place, it started with me being annoyed that weren't enough races in the game. I trashed the idea of having factions with different races that didn't have their own fleets. I was also annoyed at key players such as the Romulans and Cardassians, not being playable by 2409.

Lately though, the debate has shifted more to what Cryptic is doing rather than what I would have liked to see. Some people suggest new ideas, or interpretations of what Crypitc might do. Whenever I see an idea that agree with, I either cheer it on, or add to it, and if I see a really stupid idea that would limit the game, weather it be speculation or fact, I jump on it.

It's become more of a place to suggest problems an solutions for Cryptic to read and get feedback from.

Thanks, i was trying to follow it myself and almost had a stroke in the process....

[Xidane]

Thanks, i was trying to follow it myself and almost had a stroke in the process....

Rofl, I know what you mean, the discussion has been erratic, and I right novels instead of posts, so it's tough to make sense of any of it. I should just start a new one with a more open ****le.

[IG_Slayer]

The Changelings will always be at the top of the Dominion ladder. The Jem'Hadar and Vorta are made genetically to "love" and follow them, to see them as gods, not some other race like the Son'a. Besides the Son'a are a part of the Dominion and serve under the Changelings. The Changelings made the Dominion and they will always rule it, like they have been for the past 4000 years.

[Xidane]

The Changelings will always be at the top of the Dominion ladder. The Jem'Hadar and Vorta are made genetically to "love" and follow them, to see them as gods, not some other race like the Son'a. Besides the Son'a are a part of the Dominion and serve under the Changelings. The Changelings made the Dominion and they will always rule it, like they have been for the past 4000 years.

Like you said the Founders genetically manipulated the Vorta and Jem'Hadar to love and worship them, and like I said, the Son'a are masters of genetic manipulation. If they can be programmed to love the Founders they can be programmed to love anyone possessing the necessary skills in genetics. The take over could begin with the gradual subversion of the Vorta, or perhaps even through the White itself. All they'd have to do is genetically alter a number of Vorta into becoming their agents, the Vorta would then begin altering the Jem'Hadar under their command.

The Founders are well known for their complacency when it comes to their minions, most of which have never seen a Founder in the flesh. With the integration of Odo into the great link, there would be much change occurring in the Changelings as whole, things that might draw their attention even further away from their followers. It's been demonstrated in several situations on DS9, just how far away Changelings become when linked, hence why they made programmed slaves in the first place. Usurping their control would take time, like say....30 years or so, trust me, it's very possible.