I have a doubt....

[Ballping]

**Disclaimer: This is not an argument in any way shape or form about the PC or NPC bridge crew issue so please keep that crap out of my thread. Thank you.

Ok, you might classify this as a whine post or whatever. I don't know. Just bear with me. I'm excited about this game but my excitement is tempered by this nagging feeling that all is not right in oz.

I'm a big trekkie, not as big as some, but bigger than others. I'm a middle of the road kind of guy. Now i'm a huge gamer. I've been gaming since i was six years old. I'll just say that that was a long time ago. I've been a Star Trek Fan ever since TOS.

I've been watching old episodes of star trek, most notably DS9 (since i actually missed alot of episodes from that series) and i noticed one them that is common with all of star trek, no matter what series you watch. There is never a "rambo" character on any of the star trek's. The stories are all about the crew. Some episodes focus more on one crew member than another, but never is a crew member all alone, without support from anyone else. They always have the other crew members supporting them in some way.

Well that got me thinking about game design and mechanics and i realized that just about every MMO and 90% of games that you play, you play a "rambo" character. You rarely if ever have to rely on team mates to accomplish anything.

STO, from what i've seen of what they are planning the game to be seems to be following this trend. Everyone is a captain, which is fine, i can see the reasons why, but i wonder how much we will have to rely on other captains to complete missions? If we only have to rely on other players a little bit then you lose the spirit of star trek. If you have to rely on other players alot then that kills the "fun" factor of the game.

My worry is that the game is already doomed to lose that "star trek feel" before its even launched because it'll be near impossible to keep the "fun" level up and yet at the same time give it that "star trek feel".

What do you guys think? Am i just being over sensitive? Has my cynicism for mmo's gone too far? Or in the game mechanics of today am i right in thinking that there's no way to overcome this issue?

Please keep flames down to a one per page maximum on this thread. Thanks.

[Random19]

From what I understand I can see that there are some missions where you do have to rely on other ships and captains, and others where you have to cooperate with your crew. The crew will be playing a big part in the game by the sounds of it.

[djnattyd]

There is never a "rambo" character on any of the star trek's.

Well Kirk was sort of Rambo... I mean he always killed the baddie and always got the girl...

From some of the 'Ask Cryptic' replies i get the feeling that not all quests can be done alone. If it turns out that this is true then i think it'll benefit the game as an MMO is not about one person or even two but the masses.

It'll be good if, to complete a mission you have to have help, that way you'll feel more connected to the other gamers, and it'll make the reason for fleets more viable

[Ballping]

From what I understand I can see that there are some missions where you do have to rely on other ships and captains, and others where you have to cooperate with your crew. The crew will be playing a big part in the game by the sounds of it.

Hmm, i haven't seen anything where you have to cooperate with your crew. I know you're crew will beam down with you during away missions and be NPC AI controlled (aka cannon fodder) but i've seen nothing where you'd actually have to rely on them for anything other than battle.

That would be a good way to partially solve that problem, if you could actually pick up missions from your crew, interact with them on a personal level. That kind of thing. But if all they are, are healbots and dps buffs then that would be a huge disappointment for me.

[Ballping]

Well Kirk was sort of Rambo... I mean he always killed the baddie and always got the girl...

From some of the 'Ask Cryptic' replies i get the feeling that not all quests can be done alone. If it turns out that this is true then i think it'll benefit the game as an MMO is not about one person or even two but the masses.

It'll be good if, to complete a mission you have to have help, that way you'll feel more connected to the other gamers, and it'll make the reason for fleets more viable

That is somewhat true, but if you'll notice there always comes a point in the episode where spock or bones comes along to save kirk's ass.

As far as other players helping you out on missions, thats great, every single mmo needs a sense of community, or its doomed to die, but its not really that "star trek feel" to have 6 captains of 6 different star ships running around on the ground while their crew stays on board the ship and on the sidelines. Now if it was 6 captains, all with 3 or more npc followers, that would feel more star trek, but i understand the technical limitations of pulling this off.

[Random19]

Hmm, i haven't seen anything where you have to cooperate with your crew. I know you're crew will beam down with you during away missions and be NPC AI controlled (aka cannon fodder) but i've seen nothing where you'd actually have to rely on them for anything other than battle.

That would be a good way to partially solve that problem, if you could actually pick up missions from your crew, interact with them on a personal level. That kind of thing. But if all they are, are healbots and dps buffs then that would be a huge disappointment for me.

When you enter warp speed, orbit a planet, hail a starship, anything that the ship does you have to tell your crew to do. The captain cannot do everything himself/herself.

[Thibor]

Several MMOs have "pet classes" in which the character is in control and relying on their npc pet(s).
Another genre of games, fps, is making some headway into squad based games in which you the player direct an AI squad.
I can easily see Cryptic going that route if they chose to but, not saing that's how they're going to accomplish it.

[Ballping]

When you enter warp speed, orbit a planet, hail a starship, anything that the ship does you have to tell your crew to do. The captain cannot do everything himself/herself.

Actually from the terms of the game i'm afraid that cryptic will use a bunch of UI panels to accomplish all the things you mentioned. It would just make sense from a game play point of view as well as a "fun factor" point of view to make things as simple as possible when it comes to something as complex as controlling a star ship. The side effect of that would be to make it feel like you're driving a farrari instead of a star ship that is a km or more in length.

At least that's my supposition on what they are planning to do. I could be wrong.

[KO_Gilligan]

You know I have been here alot and seen alot about the "Star Trek feel"

It's easy for me to give you the no-brainer response of "this is a game"

but I do understand the RPG aspects for those whose imaginations are powerful canvas', able to be artistically filled with the experiences of being in the future world of Star Trek.

I have been banging away at Bethesda, in the forums, on a semi regular basis, about creating an RPG, after all, they are the masters in their own right when it comes to single player experiences like Oblivion and now, Fallout 3.

But what about multiplayer RPG - specifically, the MMO aspects that concern you ???

Will this be a WoW world of Space Marines? I don't think so. I was impressed by the levels of atypical MMO content in SWG - lets hope this raises the bar even another notch.

Remember that Cryptic has been long seasoned by the Superhero role play feeling that they have tried to create. I think they are bringing a unique experience with them...

and they are attempting to bring the Champions pencil and paper game to life. I really believe that they are going to go above and beyond to create an MMO game that stands out in the area of immersive content. Even more than Champions Online puts you in the "feel" of superherodom , I honestly think that they are creating a game that will allow us our imagination to see into the 25th century.

It is only a game. We can't plug ourselves into a holodeck yet. Games have limitations that are much unlike the dynamic events in life, or the scripted events of cinema. We really are still in uncharted space, this is why we shouldn't be so quick to judge past games as a measure of lack of reality when the vast majority are steps in the evolution of developing experiences to be more and more fun.

Yes, this is a game ;)

[Ballping]

Several MMOs have "pet classes" in which the character is in control and relying on their npc pet(s).
Another genre of games, fps, is making some headway into squad based games in which you the player direct an AI squad.
I can easily see Cryptic going that route if they chose to but, not saing that's how they're going to accomplish it.

Yes, and that's what worries me. Thats what i meant by heal bots and dps. If your crew is only "pets" then you'll end up treating them as such in the game. That is to say, sick your pet into a room full of mobs, let them take aggro, and then you sit back and kill everything while its focused on your pet.

[Ballping]

You know I have been here alot and seen alot about the "Star Trek feel"

It's easy for me to give you the no-brainer response of "this is a game"

but I do understand the RPG aspects for those whose imaginations are powerful canvas', able to be artistically filled with the experiences of being in the future world of Star Trek.

I have been banging away at Bethesda, in the forums, on a semi regular basis, about creating an RPG, after all, they are the masters in their own right when it comes to single player experiences like Oblivion and now, Fallout 3.

But what about multiplayer RPG - specifically, the MMO aspects that concern you ???

Will this be a WoW world of Space Marines? I don't think so. I was impressed by the levels of atypical MMO content in SWG - lets hope this raises the bar even another notch.

Remember that Cryptic has been long seasoned by the Superhero role play feeling that they have tried to create. I think they are bringing a unique experience with them...

and they are attempting to bring the Champions pencil and paper game to life. I really believe that they are going to go above and beyond to create an MMO game that stands out in the area of immersive content. Even more than Champions Online puts you in the "feel" of superherodom , I honestly think that they are creating a game that will allow us our imagination to see into the 25th century.

It is only a game. We can't plug ourselves into a holodeck yet. Games have limitations that are much unlike the dynamic events in life, or the scripted events of cinema. We really are still in uncharted space, this is why we shouldn't be so quick to judge past games as a measure of lack of reality when the vast majority are steps in the evolution of developing experiences to be more and more fun.

Yes, this is a game ;)

Aye Gilligan, thats exactly my point. The fact that this will be "only a game" has me worried about it. Because every star trek game that has come out has been "only a game" and is usually something else with the star trek skin slapped on it. Academy was more or less a flight sim/strategy game, same with SFA, and several others, the name escapes me but there was a FPS with star trek slapped on it. Unfortunately it has been proven over and over and over again that approaching any IP with the scope of Star Trek, or Star Wars, with the mindset of "its only a game" is automatically dooming that game to failure.

[KO_Gilligan]

Yes, and that's what worries me. Thats what i meant by heal bots and dps. If your crew is only "pets" then you'll end up treating them as such in the game. That is to say, sick your pet into a room full of mobs, let them take aggro, and then you sit back and kill everything while its focused on your pet.

You ever play Klingon Honor Guard? It was a linear FPS with bots that you could stand at a distance and pick off. But were those aspects a game killer? Not for me... it was a great game, and I'm not looking with a keen eye at why these events aren't realistically dynamic. Why are you? They know about MMO's failing in these areas, and in many other aspects. They are MMOs. But often it is the players own choice to focus on an "unlikely in reality" play style.

I wonder if you have an alternative that will create more realistic pet experiences you'd like to share.

[KO_Gilligan]

is automatically dooming that game to failure.

LOL... unfortunately, making a vanilla game that pleases the masses may be the worst thing imaginable and still assure it's success.

Gloom and Doom scenarios never arise out of not making a better game, that's just a fallacy.

Making a great game will however help assure it's success, but the two factors are not relative constants.

If I had a nickel for every successful piece of crap game..... :p

[Ballping]

You ever play Klingon Honor Guard? It was a linear FPS with bots that you could stand at a distance and pick off. But were those aspects a game killer? Not for me... it was a great game, and I'm not looking with a keen eye at why these events aren't realistically dynamic. Why are you? They know about MMO's failing in these areas, and in many other aspects. They are MMOs. But often it is the players own choice to focus on an "unlikely in reality" play style.

I wonder if you have an alternative that will create more realistic pet experiences you'd like to share.

Well i've already stated a couple of ideas. Mainly making the crew more interactive than just being pets. Being able to explore the interior of your ships and "talk" to your crew, if you're in the right area of space at the right time have it so that quests can be taken from your crew.

Just that alone would go a long way in giving the game more of that "star trek feel". Other things i could think of that would help would be instead of having your npc crew as the classic mmo "pet", treat them more as npc's like gears of war, or f.e.a.r. or half life 2. Give them a personality similar to the girl in Half Life 2 Chapter 1. Give your crew the "option" to leave your ship and persue other career oppurtunities randomly, forcing you to deal with personnel changes on your ship, just as a captain would have to do if this were a real situation.

There's plenty of small changes that can be made that will give a game the "feel" without killing the gameplay aspect of it. Unfortunately from what little info they've released so far i haven't seen any of these things in the game. Instead i've seen talk and game play vid that would suggest their following the classic MMO "pet" design.

[KO_Gilligan]

Well i've already stated a couple of ideas. Mainly making the crew more interactive than just being pets. Being able to explore the interior of your ships and "talk" to your crew, if you're in the right area of space at the right time have it so that quests can be taken from your crew.

Just that alone would go a long way in giving the game more of that "star trek feel". Other things i could think of that would help would be instead of having your npc crew as the classic mmo "pet", treat them more as npc's like gears of war, or f.e.a.r. or half life 2. Give them a personality similar to the girl in Half Life 2 Chapter 1. Give your crew the "option" to leave your ship and persue other career oppurtunities randomly, forcing you to deal with personnel changes on your ship, just as a captain would have to do if this were a real situation.

There's plenty of small changes that can be made that will give a game the "feel" without killing the gameplay aspect of it. Unfortunately from what little info they've released so far i haven't seen any of these things in the game. Instead i've seen talk and game play vid that would suggest their following the classic MMO "pet" design.

Agreed... complex semi-scripted interaction. We do need A.I. in MMOs. I have a huge problem with that... probably only second to the monthly fee (which I'm not really against, I just don't want to pay it :p )
MMO bots are dumb as dirt

[Ballping]

LOL... unfortunately, making a vanilla game that pleases the masses may be the worst thing imaginable and still assure it's success.

Gloom and Doom scenarios never arise out of not making a better game, that's just a fallacy.

Making a great game will however help assure it's success, but the two factors are not relative constants.

If I had a nickel for every successful piece of crap game..... :p

Well you and I i'd expect are not the average gamer. I don't know about you, but i expect more from any game that i purchase, and especially from any game that i'll pay a monthly fee for. I've been around the block many a many a time. The same old vanilla formula will that satiate me, and i expect it won't satiate you, and although we may still be in the minority with that, i think many gamers are slowly comming to the same conclusion.

All you have to do to look for evidence of that is to see how other new MMO's have done. Age of Conan is a prime example. It was the same old vanilla that has one or two new bells and whistles that tried to gloss over the fact that it was still a sword and sorcery game. Its well on its way to failure now. Warhammer Online has great innovation, but the orc's vs. elves theme has been done so many times that it is only a slightly successful MMO. Other MMO's that have copied the EQ formula, and then later the WoW formula with out any "gimmick" or innovation have failed out right.

This fallacy of game companies just shoving out product that fits some mold use to fly back in the 90's, but its slowly becoming an invalid way of doing business, and the quicker game companies face that the better off they'll be.

[thefreshjedi]

**Disclaimer: This is not an argument in any way shape or form about the PC or NPC bridge crew issue so please keep that crap out of my thread. Thank you.


See that's just all wrong there. You've got the wrong approach, you're opening up your argument with a defensive and offensive statement. Which doesn't really leave much room for argument or discussion. And technically, since you've posted your thoughts in a public thread, it's really not just "your thread" anymore, it's actually now shared property which each reader is capable of commenting on however they wish, within Forum regulations.

Ok, you might classify this as a whine post or whatever. I don't know. Just bear with me. I'm excited about this game but my excitement is tempered by this nagging feeling that all is not right in oz.


"...or whatever." See the language is all wrong here. You need to take a different approach, because this will stimulate a positive discussion. This just says hi, I'm new to the community and like to complain. To which many of us will say, "take a number and stand in line."

I'm a big trekkie, not as big as some, but bigger than others. I'm a middle of the road kind of guy. Now i'm a huge gamer. I've been gaming since i was six years old. I'll just say that that was a long time ago. I've been a Star Trek Fan ever since TOS.


See you could have opened up with this, this is perfect. It's not defensive, or angry, or insulting. It's a blurb about you, who you are, and what you like. It gives everyone a point of reference for what is to follow.

I've been watching old episodes of star trek, most notably DS9 (since i actually missed alot of episodes from that series) and i noticed one them that is common with all of star trek, no matter what series you watch. There is never a "rambo" character on any of the star trek's. The stories are all about the crew. Some episodes focus more on one crew member than another, but never is a crew member all alone, without support from anyone else. They always have the other crew members supporting them in some way.


I think the term you are seaching for here is a "solo" character. Rambo is a dude with machine guns in each hand, big muscles, and a terrible speach impediment. And you're right to a degree. Star Trek does distinguish itself as being a multi-cast show that focuses on interpersonal relationships, cooperation and dialogue. Solving problems together and coming to a better understanding of the problem at hand and a discovery of self and a bettering of society in general.

Well that got me thinking about game design and mechanics and i realized that just about every MMO and 90% of games that you play, you play a "rambo" character. You rarely if ever have to rely on team mates to accomplish anything.


That's because every game out there is driven by the equasion that you are the king of your own castle. The captain of your ship.... MMO's are as much about self-worth as they are about discovery, cooperation and teamwork. Right from the beginning when you "customize" your avatar you are taking a journey down a road of self-discovery, and self worth, creating an avatar through heuristics that identify yourself to yourself, in a fantasy setting...self flaterring, and self indulgence going hand in hand..."Do I make myself have a sexy body with big boobs, or do I go for the flat or fat look?" Why focus on realism when you can be the strong sharp-jawed hero? Then in the beginning of the game it is you and you alone, donning the garb of the new hero or heroine you have chosen, looking at a new world from your own perspective, and then seeking out relationships from within the program as the adventure continues.

STO, from what i've seen of what they are planning the game to be seems to be following this trend. Everyone is a captain, which is fine, i can see the reasons why, but i wonder how much we will have to rely on other captains to complete missions? If we only have to rely on other players a little bit then you lose the spirit of star trek. If you have to rely on other players alot then that kills the "fun" factor of the game.


And why not? Stick to a formula that works I say? Do what you need to make it sell, and let God sort the rest out later. But don't side-step the bigger issue. The bigger issue, underlying the surface is that you like many others in this forum are afraid of a solo-grind-fest which doesn't focus on team-work and cooperation. The very essence of Trek itself.

My worry is that the game is already doomed to lose that "star trek feel" before its even launched because it'll be near impossible to keep the "fun" level up and yet at the same time give it that "star trek feel".


I have a feeling that this game is going to blow the litteral pants off the competition, especially if they do even half of what they propose. I mean we're talking a universe of possibilities. The ability to explore not only space, but planets, the inside of your ships, other players ships, starbases, etc. etc. ad infinitum. They're even allowing you to build your own unique race, and almost fully customize your own spaceship. I mean, this approach is entirely unique, and I wouldn't despair over the other details to much.

What do you guys think? Am i just being over sensitive? Has my cynicism for mmo's gone too far? Or in the game mechanics of today am i right in thinking that there's no way to overcome this issue?


Yes, you are being a little sensitive. Be patient, and don't cast any judgements just yet. I have a feeling we're all in for the ride of our lives. But who knows? I mean after all, it is just a game. And you have to respect it for that. It's not a real-life SIM of Trek. Unfortunately. But it may lean that way over time, depending on how much the fans like it. Either way, it can't fail. It really can't, because it's loooong overdue.

Many of us here are refugees from many of the big games out there. And we're all wondering the same thing.

The other problem is that despite your opening sentence, this issue has been approached ALOT in the Player crew vs. NPC Crew thread..And whether you like it or not, it will be touched on in this thread again. That subject being that people are afraid of the trekness being lost in favor of the solo-player. But you have to cater to both. And Jack Emmert already said that they will be taking a look at the player crew idea down the line. Just not at release. So if you're a true fan, then support it for what it is, let it get released and spread the word. Eventually, over-time, as fanbase grows, and we steal enough EvEr's away, then maybe we'll see some of these other ideas come-about.

I think STO is going to be the gaming world what the Apple was to EVE (speaking figuratively). I think that STO is going to tear the whole thing down and redefine what people expect of MMO's. Whole worlds unto themselves, that people will truly begin to live in. But who knows, maybe that's my fear.

-avery

[Ballping]

Agreed... complex semi-scripted interaction. We do need A.I. in MMOs. I have a huge problem with that... probably only second to the monthly fee (which I'm not really against, I just don't want to pay it :p )
MMO bots are dumb as dirt

Aye, exactly. Unfortunately the only MMO that says their going to do anything even remotely like A.I. in an MMO is bethesda, with the Star Wars MMO. As much as i love star trek, if the game sucks (ie: a MMO with a Star Trek skin on it) then i'll have no choice but to go play a game that gives me enjoyment, and that would be a real shame as Star Trek deserves to live, as has been shown by it being resurrected time and time again.

[Trekkie]

Although I can definitely see why you feel this way, I think that it is impossible to consider this game "doomed" already since we still know relatively little about how the finished product will play. Hopefully a lot of your doubts and fears will be alleviated as the game gets closer to launching.

[Kuhr]

You know I have been here alot and seen alot about the "Star Trek feel"

It's easy for me to give you the no-brainer response of "this is a game"

but I do understand the RPG aspects for those whose imaginations are powerful canvas', able to be artistically filled with the experiences of being in the future world of Star Trek.

I have been banging away at Bethesda, in the forums, on a semi regular basis, about creating an RPG, after all, they are the masters in their own right when it comes to single player experiences like Oblivion and now, Fallout 3.

But what about multiplayer RPG - specifically, the MMO aspects that concern you ???

Will this be a WoW world of Space Marines? I don't think so. I was impressed by the levels of atypical MMO content in SWG - lets hope this raises the bar even another notch.

Remember that Cryptic has been long seasoned by the Superhero role play feeling that they have tried to create. I think they are bringing a unique experience with them...

and they are attempting to bring the Champions pencil and paper game to life. I really believe that they are going to go above and beyond to create an MMO game that stands out in the area of immersive content. Even more than Champions Online puts you in the "feel" of superherodom , I honestly think that they are creating a game that will allow us our imagination to see into the 25th century.

It is only a game. We can't plug ourselves into a holodeck yet. Games have limitations that are much unlike the dynamic events in life, or the scripted events of cinema. We really are still in uncharted space, this is why we shouldn't be so quick to judge past games as a measure of lack of reality when the vast majority are steps in the evolution of developing experiences to be more and more fun.

Yes, this is a game ;)

I agree with this one....Very logical..very.

[LordDave]

The way I see it, Each player will be like their own Star Trek TV series. The whole series, not just one guy in it.
Also, the AI crew are kinda like your stats from what I understand. The better they are, the better your ship performs.

Also, since you can swap out crew members at will, I'm sure there will be "power crew" ers. but all in all, I think it'll be more beneficial to have a crewman whose been with you for a long time then one you swap out. After all, if they put in a "They have to relearn everything" aspect with swapping, then it works as a really good balance.

Also:
Ground combat is going to be run and gun so your AI guys may not be the best choice to sick into a room full of baddies.

[onesoul1982]

Well with most of what others said, it's hard to judge a game before its released

Play the game, at least for the free trial period, maybe even apply for beta testing.

But don't say its doomed to fail even before giving it a fair chance. As stated before, the Devs are looking to produce a ground breaking MMO, and we're all hoping for that.

My advice, stick with it and see how it develops down the road. If you don't like it, well theres a multitude of MMOs and solo games out there to play.

Happy Holidays;)

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

What do you guys think?

I've yet to hear anything to suggest that you won't have to rely *heavily* on your NPC bridge crew companions. Is your premise that somehow that's less "Star Trekie" than having to rely heavily on other players?