Neutral faction(create your own worst enemy)

[furryklingon]

The need for a neutral faction I think is very important.

It would allow players to roleplay factions that are not in the game at the start of the game,fleets could join up to create the romulans,dominion Ect ect,or a group of players who made their own species and would like to make them a antagonist or just a peacful traders with the existing factions.

I think it would open up alot of possibilites for the game.

If it's been brought up already I'm sorry.

[0wl]

I support this idear, it will surely make many people happy if they were not "forced" to choose between the Federation and the Klingon Empire!

Good idear, let's hope it will be possible!

[Lizzio]

still one problem you will be flying a federation ship or a klingon ship.. hmm also the clothes will be a problem.. ''i think''

[Skelly]

Romulans and Cardaseans will be released later and have there own military. Are you wanting a Neutral faction in way of not being at war, or are talking a civilian class?

[furryklingon]

still one problem you will be flying a federation ship or a klingon ship.. hmm also the clothes will be a problem.. ''i think''

yeah thought of that it's reasonable to assume that there will be more then just federation and Klingon ship in the game at launch ,so why not make them playable,maybe a type of ship that for lack of a better term generic and highly customizable.

[Dwidian]

What you describe isn't a neutral faction... An neutral faction would be one which does not take sides in the conflict. Creating the Romulans in the guise of a neutral faction would be creating a non-neutral faction.

I could see something like a Ferengi or some customized race being neutral, in that they can travel to and trade and communicate with people from either faction. It would be interesting, and for those who aren't interested in factional PvE or PvP and would rather focus mostly on the exploration and economics portions of the game, I think a neutral faction would be a fun way to play.

[furryklingon]

Romulans and Cardaseans will be released later and have there own military. Are you wanting a Neutral faction in way of not being at war, or are talking a civilian class?

Perhaps a choice both sides could wage war (trade/resource/war war)on one another,or choose to be diplomatic,it would have to be consenual,maybe between fleets(it would add that whole faction within a faction thing we see alot of)and it would add a diplomatic war between federation and Klingon,as in them vying for the help of different quote unquote factions.not that Klingons are very diplomatic :)

[furryklingon]

What you describe isn't a neutral faction... An neutral faction would be one which does not take sides in the conflict. Creating the Romulans in the guise of a neutral faction would be creating a non-neutral faction.

I could see something like a Ferengi or some customized race being neutral, in that they can travel to and trade and communicate with people from either faction. It would be interesting, and for those who aren't interested in factional PvE or PvP and would rather focus mostly on the exploration and economics portions of the game, I think a neutral faction would be a fun way to play.

Yes but it's pretty much a roleplaying tool,not part of the system,until the factions accualy come out which we don't know when that'll be.

[Trekkie]

I definitely want to see a neutral faction in the game eventually, but I don't really mind waiting for it to be implemented because I think it will make things interesting once another faction is vying for supremacy amongst the already established affiliations.

[Sir_Cedric]

I been a supporter of a civilian class fation from the begining. I mainly call them Freelancers, a faction that can go between each of the main factions without worry of getting attacked or whatever. The freelancers would have the crafting, and merchant jobs we wouldn't see in the main factions, and you could branch off a couple of crime lord faction under the main freelancer one.

What STO should be aiming to do, is adding the unseem parts of the Trek universe, sure we all WANT the main parts we see, but to flesh out STO you will need to add the other stuff too.

After all this is a MMO, and what is an MMO without a great big sandbox to play in?

[Kuhr]

Some good points here. Personally, neutral factions I think are a good idea.

[furryklingon]

I definitely want to see a neutral faction in the game eventually, but I don't really mind waiting for it to be implemented because I think it will make things interesting once another faction is vying for supremacy amongst the already established affiliations.

I think it should be avaliable at launch, it ties up loose ends in a easy way..well easier way,I just feel like it wouldn't be complete without it.

[Colt556]

Well, I think SWG had it right, in regards to factions. I mean you COULD join the Empire, or the Rebels, or you could just not join anything and be a freelancer. I think that's how STO should be. Sure, you could join one of the main factions, but you could also be a freelancer, get yourself a civi transport and be a trader or something. Forcing people to pick a side isn't really the best way to go about it, since a LOT of MMO players don't want to be forced into one of the main factions.

[Dwidian]

Yeah, SWG didn't get much right, but the faction system is one thing they seemed to hit dead on. Most MMOs have some sort of faction point system, but I would like to see it fleshed out a bit more in STO. It would be great to be able to start off neutral and have your actions really impact your gameplay. You can spend the entire game being completely neutral and just making credits, or you could end up helping one faction or the other, and thus start alienating yourself from the other faction.

[furryklingon]

Or just a very clear choice at the beginning between Neutral,Federation and Klingon.

The thing with the whole SWG faction thing was that it was a tad complicated,it wasn't for us because let's face it we are on the site post messages about a game that's not out yet...we are hardcore gamers

[marscentral]

I have said before that I like the idea of a trade/merc independant faction. Before it was announced that the Orions are part of the Empire and Ferengi part of the Federation, we discussed the possibility of them uniting into that. However, thare are issues. Firstly, any faction requires more development time and cannot be a launch feature. Traders are no different to Romulans there, let Cryptic get the Feds and Klingons right before complicating things. Secondly, we know very little about how the game and it's economy will work. Given that the Ferengi and Orions are part of the two factions, it may be the case that trade is still occuring (even if relations are strained) and that it may be possible to play a trader of sorts on either side of the Neutral Zone.

[furryklingon]

I have said before that I like the idea of a trade/merc independant faction. Before it was announced that the Orions are part of the Empire and Ferengi part of the Federation, we discussed the possibility of them uniting into that. However, thare are issues. Firstly, any faction requires more development time and cannot be a launch feature. Traders are no different to Romulans there, let Cryptic get the Feds and Klingons right before complicating things. Secondly, we know very little about how the game and it's economy will work. Given that the Ferengi and Orions are part of the two factions, it may be the case that trade is still occuring (even if relations are strained) and that it may be possible to play a trader of sorts on either side of the Neutral Zone.

Honestly I think a neutral faction is more of a viablity then the Klingon faction.and I'm taking alot of things covering, more then just trading.

[indigowhale345]

I think this has to be nixed. Not the idea of a third faction, but the idea of any faction named "Neutral" or even something that remotely carries the connotation of the misunderstood concept of neutrality in a war.

Anarchy Online proved just how idiotic people are with semantics and the Neutrals in that game. Neutral and Switzerland are not synonyms, yet people will go on and on in the AO forums about how Neutrals should be forced to stand around and do nothing, no fighting for resources, because of the name of the faction, rather than the actual reality of the faction. That faction isn't defined by peacenik ways or a history of conflict avoidance, but rather by simply being a collection of people who are not aligned with the other two factions.

It doesn't matter the intention of the game designers in this regard. Funcom likely figured Neutrals would be just a stopping point until people figured out which side they wanted to join. Well, just like in real life, sometimes people don't want to join either side, because both are stupid. So the faction evolved into a legitimate third faction, but its only half heartedly supported by the devs. While the idea of a third, unaligned faction is definitely not a bad idea, Cryptic needs to take a serious lesson from AO, and never expect players of that sort of faction to conform and be hippies and flower children, instead of individuals out for their own goals who might deal with any and all sides to get what they want.

Whats in a name? Well everything to some people. Lesson: Don't ever name a playable faction 'Neutral'. Name it Taco Sauce or something, anything but 'Neutral'. The players won't conform to anyone's idea of neutrality, and the other factions will rail against their ability to even play the game.

[furryklingon]

I think this has to be nixed. Not the idea of a third faction, but the idea of any faction named "Neutral" or even something that remotely carries the connotation of the misunderstood concept of neutrality in a war.

Anarchy Online proved just how idiotic people are with semantics and the Neutrals in that game. Neutral and Switzerland are not synonyms, yet people will go on and on in the AO forums about how Neutrals should be forced to stand around and do nothing, no fighting for resources, because of the name of the faction, rather than the actual reality of the faction. That faction isn't defined by peacenik ways or a history of conflict avoidance, but rather by simply being a collection of people who are not aligned with the other two factions.

It doesn't matter the intention of the game designers in this regard. Funcom likely figured Neutrals would be just a stopping point until people figured out which side they wanted to join. Well, just like in real life, sometimes people don't want to join either side, because both are stupid. So the faction evolved into a legitimate third faction, but its only half heartedly supported by the devs. While the idea of a third, unaligned faction is definitely not a bad idea, Cryptic needs to take a serious lesson from AO, and never expect players of that sort of faction to conform and be hippies and flower children, instead of individuals out for their own goals who might deal with any and all sides to get what they want.

Whats in a name? Well everything to some people. Lesson: Don't ever name a playable faction 'Neutral'. Name it Taco Sauce or something, anything but 'Neutral'. The players won't conform to anyone's idea of neutrality, and the other factions will rail against their ability to even play the game.

Acually...well you be taking the wording to literally.

But I did kick myself for not phrasing it properly.how about generic faction.

[marscentral]

Honestly I think a neutral faction is more of a viablity then the Klingon faction.and I'm taking alot of things covering, more then just trading.

Not really. There is no drama with a neutral faction. Whether it's Klingons, Romulans or the Dominion, you need a faction that's opposed to the Federation, not indifferent to it (especially for PvP). Klingons also have the most source material of any any group in Star Trek besides the Federation and any species besides Terrans. More importantly at this stage, Klingons are well into development. We haven't seen much of them (we haven't seen much more for the Federation), but it has been announced and is being done.

I'm not against a neutral/nonalligned faction, I want them in there, but to put them ahead of Klingons is odd.

[Varrangian]

I'm not against a neutral faction, but it does pose issue.

First what about the "neutral" faction and combat. How does that work, can they attack and be attacked by all other factions? Or is there no combat allowed for the neutral faction.

What kind of ships do they get from an "art" stand point. From a game design standpoint the ships cannot be the same as any other faction so that they can be recognized as not being a part of those factions.

How do you work interaction, since they are "neutral" are they allowed cooperative interaction with other factions or should they be considered at war?

These don't prevent Cryptic from making a neutral faction, but it is by no means something that can be introduced as easily as a know quantity faction.

[Merius]

I say a neutral faction doesnt make so much sense (except for a few exceptions that I'll point out).


Reason #1: Its really expensive to build a starship, or any faster than light vessel. Only major governments can construct and build a ship.

- Yes in the series their are a few rouges who have ships. But in game these would be NPC's that players would be involved with for mission reasons or what have you. I don't think theirs any reason why a player would start as a civilian and get his hands on a rouge ship. Unless he was like the head of a government or band of rebbles, which is unlikly for everyone who wants to play a civilian.

(say 50,000 players want to go the civilian rout, then we have 50,000 heads of rouge empires?)

Doesnt make sense.

Reason #2: Even if you were rich enough to get your own ship, and be a trader or miner or whatever you want to be. You would still be a citizen of the federation or a citizen of the Klingon Empire. Thus you are still a member, only your class is not "captain" or military. Your class would be like ship captain of a space barge.

So maybe what you are really looking for - is non-military vessels. If that is the case, I might support your argument. I believe their should be some non-military vessels in both federation and klingon empires. It will give me a reason to answer distress calls from time to time.

So you can be a Captain of a ship without weapons or sheilds and have no intenion to do battle, but still be a citizen of the federation. But you would be a captain of a vessel.



A few exceptions:
If you as a captain went rouge from your federation or klingon empire. This has happend, but usually as a captain you would be overthrown by your crew who doesnt all want to go rouge.

So... I would say the game should make this possible, but only with a ship of a crew of about 10 or so. Because you might be able to influce that many starfleet officers to go rouge with you, and not work for the federation or klingon empire anymore. But not a crew of 400.

However, the game developers would have to build something into the system of that were to happen. And you may not be taking all of your bridge crew/ senior staff with you. Only a few of them and some NPC's.

Plus your steeling your factions property - the ship, thus meaning I'll have to hunt you down.

Like Geordi did to Chickota and Harry Kim when they stole that borg technology and the holo emittor.

But that was 3 people, not 10, and they took a shuttle.



Thoughts?

[Merius]

oh, and another expection:

If you were a member of a race that did not belong to the federation or the klingon empire.

Meaning one planet that had no alliance.

If you were from that planet and captained a ship their, then yes you would be a faction outside of the federation and klingon empire, but you wouldn't be neutral, you would have to follow your planets goals.

Its like creating a third faction.

[furryklingon]

Not really. There is no drama with a neutral faction. Whether it's Klingons, Romulans or the Dominion, you need a faction that's opposed to the Federation, not indifferent to it (especially for PvP). Klingons also have the most source material of any any group in Star Trek besides the Federation and any species besides Terrans. More importantly at this stage, Klingons are well into development. We haven't seen much of them (we haven't seen much more for the Federation), but it has been announced and is being done.

I'm not against a neutral/nonalligned faction, I want them in there, but to put them ahead of Klingons is odd.

My point isn't to say that Klingons aren't import (after all i have klingon in my name)it just to say that that a neutral/generic faction would cover a wider birth between all the factions in star trek quickly,but I'm not saying the various factions shouldn't be properly repesented .

[Colt556]

You guys are putting too much emphasis on a neutral "faction". You don't need a faction, you just need a group of ships that are neither klingon nor federation, and you need to allow players to not be a part of either faction. It doesn't need any complex system to it or anything. Players will make their own factions in the form of guilds. Again with SWG, they didn't have a neutral faction, they had the Empire, the Rebels, and everything in between. That's how STO should do it. If you don't want to be a fed, ok. If you don't want to be a klingon, that's ok. Go buy yourself a civilian ship and go out and do whatever you want. After all, that's the whole point of an MMO, isn't it?

[furryklingon]

You guys are putting too much emphasis on a neutral "faction". You don't need a faction, you just need a group of ships that are neither klingon nor federation, and you need to allow players to not be a part of either faction. It doesn't need any complex system to it or anything. Players will make their own factions in the form of guilds. Again with SWG, they didn't have a neutral faction, they had the Empire, the Rebels, and everything in between. That's how STO should do it. If you don't want to be a fed, ok. If you don't want to be a klingon, that's ok. Go buy yourself a civilian ship and go out and do whatever you want. After all, that's the whole point of an MMO, isn't it?

Yeah your right...but from the little that we know that won't be a option at launch,from what I'm understanding.really there just needs to be a very customizable generic ship that players can customize to a large degree and I think with fleets and what not everything will iron itself out...but I could be wrong.

[onesoul1982]

Possibly a neutral faction down the road...we'll just have to wait and see

[Colt556]

Unfortunately, a neutral faction has to be at launch. It's not one of those things you can just add on later. But thankfully, it really isn't that much work. It's not an actual faction, so it doesn't require anywhere near the degree of work the feds or klingons do. And all the main functions required for it to work are allready ingame, that being guilds. So all that's required is to make a bunch of neutral, civi ships, and make it so both the feds and klingons are allied to them by default. A player could allways attack the klingons/feds n make enemies of them, but by default all are allied to a neutral player.

And besides, the game is still years away, there's plenty of time to add in a neutral side to the game.

[Varrangian]

You guys are putting too much emphasis on a neutral "faction". You don't need a faction, you just need a group of ships that are neither klingon nor federation, and you need to allow players to not be a part of either faction. It doesn't need any complex system to it or anything.

I'm sorry, but this is overly simplistic or naive at best. The game is faction based, therefore the game play is designed for faction playing. So any "neutral" group must be a faction as well and decisions must be made to how this "neutral" faction will function in the context of the greater game design.

Your choice of SWG is an incorrect one. In STO you will choose your faction upon character creation, in SWG faction is a choice that one does not have to make, SWG is not "faction based" but has the Galactic Civil war tacked on. It is essentially a tool for the optional PvP system.

It has been stated that in STO your faction will play a role in the options available to you when completing missions. The example given was that a Starfleet captain will react differently to the outbreak of a deadly plague on a planet than a Klingon captain will.

In SWG you "faction" had little to no relationship to how you could play the game.

So yes a "neutral" faction in STO does need to be a complex system.

[KO_Gilligan]

I was hoping for a dirty scoundrel antagonist faction, like the Smokers from Waterworld or the Reavers in Firefly.

[Merius]

It still doesnt make sense to me on how neutral players can gain ships.

Major ships are built by factions like the federation. You want the cool ships you need to be part of the major military governments.

If you want lame ships then yeah, be appart of a world or another faction, but those may not be incorporated as much.


Hopefully the Gorn will have their own ships, and the Orions and the Nausicaans, so I can chose one of those.


Best!

[Varrangian]

I was hoping for a dirty scoundrel antagonist faction, like the Smokers from Waterworld or the Reavers in Firefly.

I'd love to see two "neutral" factions offered, one geared towards commerce and one geared toward piracy. Think this would resolve some of the issues I listed above. Foremost being the issue of combat and who they can side with. The commerce faction being a non-combat faction able to trade freely with both and the piracy faction being pure combat and at war with both factions.

[Colt556]

Well, if you've seen any of my posts you know I hate being forced into anything. So having the game FORCE you to pick a faction just doesn't sit well with me. I'd much rather choose which faction I want ingame, or choose not to have a faction whatsoever. I mean it would open a whole lot of doors if you let people choose to be neutral, would allow for a lot more creativity and the like. As for ships, well I suspect ST is like every single other sci-fi universe in existance, where they sell ships to civilians. The only reason we never really see them in the shows or movies is because those ALLWAYS focus on starfleet. It's like watching a tv show about the military, just because it doesn't show civilian life doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sure neutrals wouldn't get giant power houses like the sovereign, but who's to say they can't get a lightly armed warp 10 ship? Sure it'd be expensive, but it'd still be doable.

[Merius]

Well, if you've seen any of my posts you know I hate being forced into anything. So having the game FORCE you to pick a faction just doesn't sit well with me. I'd much rather choose which faction I want ingame, or choose not to have a faction whatsoever. I mean it would open a whole lot of doors if you let people choose to be neutral, would allow for a lot more creativity and the like. As for ships, well I suspect ST is like every single other sci-fi universe in existance, where they sell ships to civilians. The only reason we never really see them in the shows or movies is because those ALLWAYS focus on starfleet. It's like watching a tv show about the military, just because it doesn't show civilian life doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sure neutrals wouldn't get giant power houses like the sovereign, but who's to say they can't get a lightly armed warp 10 ship? Sure it'd be expensive, but it'd still be doable.


I would say it would have to be rare...

but I'm open to discussing it. I mean do you have any more feedback or reasons what civilions would start out with? What path they would take?

I mean lets say every planet has the option of having a civilion that takes on some role as a space faring individual. How would he go about missions, doing commerce, dealing with the major faction powers and governments of other planets?

Because in Voyager, they came across some spaceports that were just hubs for traders like nealix.

Any further thoughts on how civilion life would go? I mean I just need more reasons to justify it than "I want it".

Best,

[Colt556]

I would say it would have to be rare...

but I'm open to discussing it. I mean do you have any more feedback or reasons what civilions would start out with? What path they would take?

I mean lets say every planet has the option of having a civilion that takes on some role as a space faring individual. How would he go about missions, doing commerce, dealing with the major faction powers and governments of other planets?

Because in Voyager, they came across some spaceports that were just hubs for traders like nealix.

Any further thoughts on how civilion life would go? I mean I just need more reasons to justify it than "I want it".

Best,

Well as we have seen in the shows, MANY civilizations independent of the main factions had space ships. Granted, 99% of the time they were for military purposes, but again the show focuses on starfleet and so we rarely see civilian life.

Civi's would start out with a rinky dink shuttle, like everyone else, the only differance is they wont be able to get fancy federation ships, or awesome klingon ships, they'll have to get civilian ships. NPC's, neutral, or faction oriented (Up to the devs) could give a neutral player missions, anything from delivering goods to dealing with pirates. After all, the galaxy is a big place and a relativly small portion of it is under the control of the federations, or klingons. There's plenty of oppertunities for a freelance pilot.

As for dealing with other governments, all neutrals should start out as allies to all factions. This could change depending on their actions, for example the federation may take offense to a player selling weapons or military equipment to the klingons. Or if the player attacks a faction-owned ship.

As this is an MMO, factions would really be a secondary part of the game, whether they were mandatory or not. The main focus will be on guilds (Or fleets, as the case may be.) Players will be cooperating for various things. Neutrals could easily cash in on this. Doing business with guilds rather then factional NPC's.

As for ships, well I'd say civi ships should by default be FAR weaker then any faction ship, and slightly slower (For example, max speed at warp 7). But on the flip side they'd be far more customizable then any faction ship. I mean let's face it, a starfleet officer is still bound by regulations, same with a klingon. They can't go and make any modification they want. But what's to stop freelance Joe from sticking a couple dozen phaser banks on his ship? Nothing, aslong as he has the money.

That's just my opinions though. As I'd really hate to see this game be so two dimensional, that being either Klingon or Federation, so limiting that way.

[furryklingon]

I'm sorry, but this is overly simplistic or naive at best. The game is faction based, therefore the game play is designed for faction playing. So any "neutral" group must be a faction as well and decisions must be made to how this "neutral" faction will function in the context of the greater game design.

Your choice of SWG is an incorrect one. In STO you will choose your faction upon character creation, in SWG faction is a choice that one does not have to make, SWG is not "faction based" but has the Galactic Civil war tacked on. It is essentially a tool for the optional PvP system.

It has been stated that in STO your faction will play a role in the options available to you when completing missions. The example given was that a Starfleet captain will react differently to the outbreak of a deadly plague on a planet than a Klingon captain will.

In SWG you "faction" had little to no relationship to how you could play the game.

So yes a "neutral" faction in STO does need to be a complex system.

I think it is that simple the neutral /generic factions works more as a tool for players,then a real faction,it's for players that don't want to be pigeon holed into one of the two factions,and it fits Star Trek,think about it how many times in star trek did we see a new alien species that wasn't a Federation or a Klingon.amd had their own ships,more times I can count.

As for the cost that's just overthinking it,after all it's a MMO,somethings are not gonna add up,you just have to pick the lesser of two evils.

[0wl]

Many great idears in this thread, hopefully it will be possible at some point or rather, right from the start! :)

[Sir_Cedric]

I don't understand why people don't think CIVs can't get ships. Never heard of Feighters and Transports? And I am very sure you could get your hands on a cruiser if you have the money. Would it be a faction ship? Of course not, but you still can get something to take out a Borg cube, if you spend the money you make in game. :D

[0wl]

I would love to "command" a freighter! :)

[TruthSeer]

From the thread title I thought this was going to suggest something along the lines of Champions Online's Nemesis system, which IMO would be really cool to design a ship, crew, or even species that is a personal enemy of yours.

As for the actual purpose of the thread, can we just have them release what they plan to first and then see what can be added?