The Path to 2409: 2382 (December 5, 2008)

[jsutich]

Another installment of The Path to 2409 has been published, this one dealing with events during the year 2382.

The unstable situation of the Romulans continues to be a source of concern for the Alpha and Beta quadrants.

The Klingon Empire takes advantage of the weak position of the Romulans to stage lightning strikes into Romulan space, retaking Khitomer and the sector surrounding it. The Federation Council criticizes the move, but Ambassador K’mtok responds that the empire is simply reclaiming territory that belonged to the Klingons by right.

Read more here! (http://www.startrekonline.com/timeline/2382)

[RogueEnterprise]

Romulan drama! Would they really have it any other way?

[Arachnidus]

I liked this one. Very well written, I like the direction being taken. I especially like the whole thing about the Doc.

[jayrelo]

I liked this one. Very well written, I like the direction being taken. I especially like the whole thing about the Doc.

indeed, the most utopian thing i think star trek always offered was its court system and the thought every case was given in this medium.

also, ro got some pretty quick props there, maybe she knows a friend or two on the inside? :)

[capgjt585]

More evidence of widening rift between the Federation and Klingons. Klingons want to nibble away at the fractured Romulans, Federation says don't do that, more rifting occurs. Nice developing.

More points:

*Wonder when the Unification movement is going to catch a break... :(

*Of course the Doctor would object to his emitter being studied, it's kinda like what happened with Data. In both cases, they are dealing with artificial sentient beings, and its only right that consent be asked of them.

*Cardassians hiding something, I mean, what else is new right?:p

*I thought DS9 was still a Federation starbase, so how does Ro get to be security chief for the Bajorans there? Or did I miss something?:confused:

jayrelo: I've always thought that a JAG-style series set in the Star Trek universe would make a decent TV series, at least just to try it.:D

[Ensign.Ricky]

Wow. Much appreciated on the quicker updates to the timeline!

It will be interesting to see what the outcome is for Holograms and rights. If something legal is established I see a problem coming regarding a certain nemesis of a "Mr. Holmes".

Whats the deal with Cardassian crimminals disappearing? They've got to be up to something.

Looking forward to more!

[Dext]

nice an thanks for this info.

[Dext]

More evidence of widening rift between the Federation and Klingons. Klingons want to nibble away at the fractured Romulans, Federation says don't do that, more rifting occurs. Nice developing.

More points:

*Wonder when the Unification movement is going to catch a break... :(

*Of course the Doctor would object to his emitter being studied, it's kinda like what happened with Data. In both cases, they are dealing with artificial sentient beings, and its only right that consent be asked of them.

*Cardassians hiding something, I mean, what else is new right?:p

*I thought DS9 was still a Federation starbase, so how does Ro get to be security chief for the Bajorans there? Or did I miss something?:confused:

jayrelo: I've always thought that a JAG-style series set in the Star Trek universe would make a decent TV series, at least just to try it.:D

An so you know DS9 was not a Star Fleet's they was just getting to use it.

[Captain-Picard]

Bravo!!!!
_______________________

[Rangerrob]

Thanks Cryptic! Keep them coming. :)

[Drake1985]

*I thought DS9 was still a Federation starbase, so how does Ro get to be security chief for the Bajorans there? Or did I miss something?:confused:

Well, the post was more or less vacant as far as I know, considering Odo rejoined the great link at the end of DS9. And if I remember correctly the feds only "managed" the station for the bajorans anyway, that's how Odo got the job in the first place (or rather kept it after the cardassian retreat) and why most of his security officers wore uniforms of the bajoran militia.

Why a former criminal got a post as somethings chief of security is beyond me, however. Maybe it's this optimistic, federation "Everyone deserves a second chance"-thing.

And just by the way: I'm not entirely sure whether I should be glad or annoyed that they left the new Destiny-novels out of "their" canon. Story is great, but its got the biggest cliffhanger I've ever seen on Trek (only finished book 2 so far).

[SoongType]

Wow,awesome.Thanx Cryptic!

*Romulan needs food badly!*

[phifur]

Great job :)

[Omega1]

Juiciest update yet!

[Sevenblade]

Definitely liking the Romulan developments. Interesting to see how each of the opponents in the power struggle is consolidating power around themselves. Donatra declares herself Empress, while Tal'Aura maneuvers to do the same in everything but name. And as someone said, this also helps develop the Federation-Klingon rift nicely. I like it :D

I also really like the development of the artificial sentient life rights movement that so many people were requesting be expanded upon. That is one of the things I think Trek is founded upon. By examining how we define humanity and how we treat others and/or how we expand who we consider human, we learn a lot more about ourselves and our own humanity.

Nice to see a little intrigue going on with the Cardassians. I'm surprised that the Bajorans are only trying to extradite Cardassian criminals/leaders, though. As far as I know, all of the Bajoran orbs that were taken off planet after the Occupation were never returned, and you would think the Bajorans would be clamoring to have those returned, due to their importance and place in their hugely societally incorporated religion.

And yeah, I think we all were a little surprised by Ro getting head of security right out of prison. I mean, she did serve her term and everything, and the Feds might consider this a chance to re-prove herself, but still. Letting felons (and almost a war criminal) run the security on one of the most influential and important space stations in the Federation seems a little iffy.



Oh, and I just want to say thanks, Razor and the crew. Love these updates, and I especially like the increasing frequency with which they're being put out. As much as some of us complained about the wait between the first two, I think it was worth it if you guys thought out this much in advance to give us frequent, well-thought out updates.

[Varrangian]

Awesome! Thanks

[jagerbolt]

Awesome! Love to read these and appreciate the faster updates.

Looks like the Romulan internal struggle is about to blow up into a full blown civil war. Can't wait to see how it plays out. :D:D:D

[Kahn773]

Thank you for continuing this great story arch. I can't wait to see more....

[CasiusOntius]

Yay! Would have liked to hear more about Picard and Seven working together against the Borg, but it was still very interesting to hear about the Doctor. I always loved his character, and I hope they rule him sentient!

[rongstadfamily]

Thanks for the update.
Can't wait for the next one.

[Raven0238]

Very well done, I loved the EMH Reference.

[Fvillha]

Looks great Crytic (Razor), the Romulan Empire side of the story fits with all the post Nemesis material I've read so far and makes for alot of openings to develop your version of the Future of the Empire and those waiting to take what parts they can from the Empire.

Good to see the issues that Tal' Aura has brought onto herself, suspect it will bring bitter fruit indeed. I suspect alot will hinge on what Empress Donatra and the Federation can do to secure a more prosperous future and still please the people of the Empire. Hum ..think the Klingons took classes in sneakiness 101 from us Romulans, catching us with our pants down while we start a mini-civil war.

(Wonders what Donatra's thoughts will be on the Unifiers and Reman and Feds, for this timeline (will they become enemy or allies for the IRE)

Will AI(s) lifeform be an option for players to play? Sort of sounds like it.


Sidenote: Does the Destiny series of novels have much to do with Romulans? I haven't seen any reviews indicating such.

[Sevenblade]

Looks great Crytic (Razor), the Romulan Empire side of the story fits with all the post Nemesis material I've read so far and makes for alot of openings to develop your version of the Future of the Empire and those waiting to take what parts they can from the Empire.

Good to see the issues that Tal' Aura has brought onto herself, suspect it will bring bitter fruit indeed. I suspect alot will hinge on what Empress Donatra and the Federation can do to secure a more prosperous future and still please the people of the Empire. Hum ..think the Klingons took classes in sneakiness 101 from us Romulans, catching us with our pants down while we start a mini-civil war.

(Wonders what Donatra's thoughts will be on the Unifiers and Reman and Feds, for this timeline (will they become enemy or allies for the IRE)

Will AI(s) lifeform be an option for players to play? Sort of sounds like it.


Sidenote: Does the Destiny series of novels have much to do with Romulans? I haven't seen any reviews indicating such.

Nah, Destiny is more about the Federation vs. a new Borg invasion, though they do employ the Klingons for help. Though Destiny is the least likely of the post-Nemesis novels to be incorporated into the Path to 2409, due to it's, ah...grandiose nature ;)

[Thraken]

Schweeeet.....

The first half was just generic flavour but the second half is very interesting :D

1: Hints at being able to play a HOLOGRAPHIC character!
if they can mass produce by 2409 there's no reason that sentient holographic life can't wander around doing stuff!

2: Seems like interesting times for 2409 if the political climate doesn't change.
relations between all parties seem to be rocky.

3: Thanks for the Ro drop in T_T it shakes up the book based timelines but thanks for the consideration in any case

About her being head of security - Well remember that the Bajorans probably don't care overly much about her fighting cardassians, Ro joined the Bajoran militia not starfleet and thus is not a member of the federation and Colonel Kira Nerys commands DS9 and makes the final decision.

I found it amusing when bajor joins the federation and Ro's ass is dragged back into Starfleet :D

Nah, Destiny is more about the Federation vs. a new Borg invasion, though they do employ the Klingons for help. Though Destiny is the least likely of the post-Nemesis novels to be incorporated into the Path to 2409, due to it's, ah...grandiose nature ;)

I agree here. Destiny and the run up to it is a bit of a mess. I mean - repeated apocalyptic Borg bashings of the Alpha quadrant that makes Wolf 359, First Contact and all the Voyager encounters seem like captain Archer getting beaten up by yet another alien of the week -_-

I suppose they could fit it into a thirty year gap and work from a 'rebuilding' time period kinda like the Star Wars books have done, but the whole Borg jamboree thing has put me off the books :(

I'm waiting for the next New Frontier book. Peter David hasn't disappointed me yet :)

[CaptainHancock]

With the prospect of civil war within the Romulan Star Empire, and the breakdown within other Star systems, is it possible that the Borg may attempt to take advantage and wreak havoc within the Alpha Quadrant? I also wonder how Ro Laren will fare as head of security on DS9. Only time will tell...:confused:

[Sevenblade]

Schweeeet.....

The first half was just generic flavour but the second half is very interesting :D

1: Hints at being able to play a HOLOGRAPHIC character!
if they can mass produce by 2409 there's no reason that sentient holographic life can't wander around doing stuff!

2: Seems like interesting times for 2409 if the political climate doesn't change.
relations between all parties seem to be rocky.

3: Thanks for the Ro drop in T_T it shakes up the book based timelines but thanks for the consideration in any case

About her being head of security - Well remember that the Bajorans probably don't care overly much about her fighting cardassians, Ro joined the Bajoran militia not starfleet and thus is not a member of the federation and Colonel Kira Nerys commands DS9 and makes the final decision.

I found it amusing when bajor joins the federation and Ro's ass is dragged back into Starfleet :D



I agree here. Destiny and the run up to it is a bit of a mess. I mean - repeated apocalyptic Borg bashings of the Alpha quadrant that makes Wolf 359, First Contact and all the Voyager encounters seem like captain Archer getting beaten up by yet another alien of the week -_-

I suppose they could fit it into a thirty year gap and work from a 'rebuilding' time period kinda like the Star Wars books have done, but the whole Borg jamboree thing has put me off the books :(

I'm waiting for the next New Frontier book. Peter David hasn't disappointed me yet :)


Well, personally I thought the Destiny novels (only read the first one, but I know the general storyline of all 3) were fairly decent, and their explanation seemed the most plausible to me compared to others on the origins of the Borg, but yeah, it did seem a little bit of a stretch. Not to mention the far reaching effects of the books would really contradict what ST:O seems to be setting up storywise for the universe.

[demyan12]

Dang Klingons. Always getting into trouble when times are bad. This is just like when they attacked the Cardassians before the Dominion war.

[CaptainHoliday]

I would like to point out the time gap between TImeline updates. Nobody has discussed that yet. The average now is about one month between updates. I thought we would get one per WEEK. This would have meant the release would be next fall. Once per month means Star Trek Online will be released in 2010 or 2011!!!

Unless towards the end of production they start released them more frequently.

This update was the best one yet. I like the part about The Doctor.

[KirksOtherSon]

An unexpected treat! Thanks for this!

I like everything I'm seeing. I'll let those who must do so quibble over the minutiae; myself, I have no problems with what I'm seeing here.

Very entertaining. Thanks again!

KOS

[Angelphoenix12]

to me its starting to a rift between the feds and kligons*. Also intrested in the story about the romulans.

bravo to you cryptic another great year in story. :)

btw is it possible to link the stories togather with a < for backward and > for forward. so we dont have to keep going to the main page.

[Frost-Storm]

I like whats happening with the Klingons in this one. I hoped for a little more info on the Borg situation though.

[Sckullzy]

These get better every chapter.
I doubt the Bajoran militia have a problem with Ro Laren’s time in prison when she was there for defecting to the Maquis,
And why would people want the doctor’s lawsuit to succeed? Reverse engineering the mobile emitter is how it will be possible to have holographic crew members and he would get one back.

[Sevenblade]

These get better every chapter.
I doubt the Bajoran militia have a problem with Ro Laren’s time in prison when she was there for defecting to the Maquis?
And why would people want the doctor’s lawsuit to succeed? Reverse engineering the mobile emitter is how it will be possible to have holographic crew members and he would get one back.

Very true, and that's what I thought at first, as well, but then you have to remember it's more out of principle. The Doctor will now be essentially imprisoned to only holographic areas again, a restriction that would feel like Hell after finally being used to go wherever he wished. And more importantly, it's the fact that Starfleet feels it can do this to him without even approaching him or asking. As he is just a tool in their eyes, they can take his emitter from him at their discretion, without regard for his desires or feelings.
It's basically the same scenario as the Voyager episode where a holonovelist tries to steal his ideas and pass them off as his own, simply because the Doctor is a hologram.

[Tranchera]

If anything, this just proves that STO is in good hands.

Unless you've got one guy on the team who knows Star Trek writing this, and the rest are catapulting peas at each other.

[Sevenblade]

If anything, this just proves that STO is in good hands.

Unless you've got one guy on the team who knows Star Trek writing this, and the rest are catapulting peas at each other.

:eek: Can I work at Cryptic now? Pretty please? :D

[Blackfire2]

My beloved romulans! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!:eek:

grrrr need romulan expansion pack :D

[Trekkie]

This was a very intriguing timeline update, and it is probably my favorite one so far! Thank you very much for posting this and for creating such a dynamic storyline!

[Azurian]

Alright, the Klingons retake their land and we start to see the Holographic Life Forms start to get some acknowledgement of being senitent.

And it's interesting Ro Laren is chief of security at DS9. Wonder how good she will work with Col. Kira. ;)

[Mailman653]

I assume the new Praetor is on Romulus, then where is the Empress? Far from Romulus no doubt. Although it is an internal mater, who will the Federation back? I think it's in their interest to keep the Romulan Empire intact to preserve as a kind check for the Klingons since they have already demonstrated their intent on expanding the Empire at the cost of the Romulans. Or maybe the Klingons cut some secret deals, expand the empire in exchange weapons or ships; it would not be the first time the Klingons get involved in internal matters of other factions.

All very interesting :D

As for the Doc making formal charges is quite a leap for his kind whether they realize it or not. It's nice to see how they brought back this concept originally laid out during TNG in regards to Data.

[Sorbek]

Some very interesting twists...now that Ro Laren is head of security for DS9 I want to know where Odo went!!!

[Sckullzy]

Very true, and that's what I thought at first, as well, but then you have to remember it's more out of principle. The Doctor will now be essentially imprisoned to only holographic areas again, a restriction that would feel like Hell after finally being used to go wherever he wished. And more importantly, it's the fact that Starfleet feels it can do this to him without even approaching him or asking. As he is just a tool in their eyes, they can take his emitter from him at their discretion, without regard for his desires or feelings.
It's basically the same scenario as the Voyager episode where a holonovelist tries to steal his ideas and pass them off as his own, simply because the Doctor is a hologram.

True but it would be a temporary inconvenience that would be for the benefit of all self aware photonic beings. Why should he be the only one to gain from the emitter which he has no real legal claim to as it is a stolen piece of technology from the future to begin with.
I understand it is a question of his rights as a sentient being but he’s also a doctor who’s slowing a major significant medical/ technological advancement because it will make it hard for him to walk around in some places for a little while. When you consider he doesn’t even age he’ll have plenty of time to see the good it does once applied.
When they were trying this with Data they were going to dismantle him not limit his movement to within any facility or building with a holodeck or EMH ready lab which now that he’s no longer on a lone star fleet ship in the Delta quadrant is a pretty large map to walk. And this isn’t a Positronic brain that they may have never been able to figure out, it’s pretty much a sophisticated toy that probably wouldn’t take too long to reproduce and then he would get it (or one like it) back and potentially be credited as the father of the Field EMH if he would drop his obstructionist self centered lawsuit and work with them for the greater good.

[Sevenblade]

True but it would be a temporary inconvenience that would be for the benefit of all self aware photonic beings. Why should he be the only one to gain from the emitter which he has no real legal claim to as it is a stolen piece of technology from the future to begin with.
I understand it is a question of his rights as a sentient being but he’s also a doctor who’s slowing a major significant medical/ technological advancement because it will make it hard for him to walk around in some places for a little while. When you consider he doesn’t even age he’ll have plenty of time to see the good it does once applied.
When they were trying this with Data they were going to dismantle him not limit his movement to within any facility or building with a holodeck or EMH ready lab which now that he’s no longer on a lone star fleet ship in the Delta quadrant is a pretty large map to walk. And this isn’t a Positronic brain that they may have never been able to figure out, it’s pretty much a sophisticated toy that probably wouldn’t take too long to reproduce and then he would get it (or one like it) back and potentially be credited as the father of the Field EMH if he would drop his obstructionist self centered lawsuit and work with them for the greater good.

Yet it's not about the practicalities, which is how you're looking at it. You have excellent points, and I'm sure the Doctor has actually thought about them all or had them presented to him by the Admiralty, at the very least. And it's not really a short time, because if you think about it, they weren't able to reverse-engineer the transphasic torpedoes, and those aren't even 30 years in advance. They could only reproduce them, not actually understand the technology (Star Trek Destiny: Gods of Night). The mobile emitter is all the way from the 29th century, 400 years in the future. The Doctor might be stuck in a holodeck indefinitely if he gives up the emitter.
Anyways, it's about principle. The Doctor has no desire to hold up advances in holodeck technology. It's that the Admiralty and Starfleet (and the Federation, by extension), see him as subhuman, especially legally. It's basically on par with the Trail of Tears or the Japanese internment camps during WWII, at least in terms of human rights and the legality, if not actually in effect. It's not about the inconvenience to the Doctor. It's that they don't even consider that for him. As he is less than human in their eyes, it doesn't matter if he's inconvenienced, because he's just a tool to be used, of equal value as the emitter. It'd be like saying FDR was of equal value as his wheelchair. I'm sure that if they had actually asked him to use the emitter for research, he would have given it up gladly. But the fact that they took it without even consulting him is a slap to the face, and makes the Federation no better than say, the Dominion.

[Veglargh]

What it does not make sense to me is that the doctor would prevent the study of the mobile emitter specially since in one of the episodes he said that wished his mobile emitter to be donated to the "Dainstrum Institute" so they can study it and maybe allow other holograms the same freedom.

I think that this particular episode is in the 7th season. But here is a clip in you tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoymFBKKxos&NR=1
poof that the doctor would not mind donating the emitter

[Sevenblade]

What it does not make sence to me is that the doctor would prevent the study of the mobil emitter specialy since in one of the episodes he said that wished his mobil emitter to be donated to the "Dainstrum Institute" so they can study it and maybe allow other holograms the same freedom.

I think that this particula episode is the the 7th season. But here is the clip in you tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoymFBKKxos&NR=1
poof that the doctor would not mind donating the emitter

I guess I'll say it again:

It's not about the inconvenience to the Doctor. It's that they don't even consider that for him. As he is less than human in their eyes, it doesn't matter if he's inconvenienced, because he's just a tool to be used, of equal value as the emitter. It'd be like saying FDR was of equal value as his wheelchair. I'm sure that if they had actually asked him to use the emitter for research, he would have given it up gladly. But the fact that they took it without even consulting him is a slap to the face, and makes the Federation no better than say, the Dominion.

[Sckullzy]

Yet it's not about the practicalities, which is how you're looking at it. You have excellent points, and I'm sure the Doctor has actually thought about them all or had them presented to him by the Admiralty, at the very least. And it's not really a short time, because if you think about it, they weren't able to reverse-engineer the transphasic torpedoes, and those aren't even 30 years in advance. They could only reproduce them, not actually understand the technology (Star Trek Destiny: Gods of Night). The mobile emitter is all the way from the 29th century, 400 years in the future. The Doctor might be stuck in a holodeck indefinitely if he gives up the emitter.
Anyways, it's about principle. The Doctor has no desire to hold up advances in holodeck technology. It's that the Admiralty and Starfleet (and the Federation, by extension), see him as subhuman, especially legally. It's basically on par with the Trail of Tears or the Japanese internment camps during WWII, at least in terms of human rights and the legality, if not actually in effect. It's not about the inconvenience to the Doctor. It's that they don't even consider that for him. As he is less than human in their eyes, it doesn't matter if he's inconvenienced, because he's just a tool to be used, of equal value as the emitter. It'd be like saying FDR was of equal value as his wheelchair. I'm sure that if they had actually asked him to use the emitter for research, he would have given it up gladly. But the fact that they took it without even consulting him is a slap to the face, and makes the Federation no better than say, the Dominion.


How is it like saying FDR was of equal value as his wheelchair? He’s not being treated as the object here, the emitter is. Which is not even property he really has any claim to other than he’s been using it for a somewhat small period of time. He’s benefited by exploiting a found object of personal convenience he acquired as a uniform member of star fleet. His legal argument is a lot closer to a squatter’s rights case than a civil rights case and even that would be if squatters could claim cars they found idling.

It would be more like if FDR somehow got Stephen Hawkings stolen wheelchair and when the army core of engineers said “This is amazing and could help a lot of vets in ways we may have not been able to for years otherwise!” and FDR said “no it’s mine, **** off.” “Sir couldn’t you just use one of the many, many available wheelchairs (holodecks) like you had been using up until you found that one, at least until we give it back?” “hhhmmmm, nope I like this one, I can make it say stuff in a robot voice!” The worst that could even happen by its absence even if it became permanent is he would continue to live with the same normal reasonably expected limitations he was “born” with and had never been given any assurances against. (The Doctor not FDR)

And (believe me I know how nitpicky this next section will read,:o I apologize in advance for that) it couldn’t really be indefinitely. The most it could be would be 400 years and he actually has a good chance of still being around and basically the same age, and that’s assuming they were never able to reduce the size and improve the mobility of a holoemitter even with the premature presence of one to work off. By the EMH’s existence they’ve shown already you don’t need an entire holodeck to support a photonic being. They’re not reinventing the wheel they’re shrinking something they’re already building on a regular basis. Going from a VAX to and Iphone only took 40 years and that’s without a good amount of sweet star trek Deus ex Machina. If worst comes to worse and all they can do is replicate it without fully understanding it he would still gets it back.

I know Bones Mccoy must have passed on by 2382 because he would have marched in to the Doctors quarters, smacked him around and taken the emitter if he had an ounce of life left to do it with.

[Davies82]

Really enjoyed the latest installment of the timeline, keep up the good work. Looks like the years are coming through more frequent. Will we be excpecting any more screenshots, information, or timeline updates around or just before christmas time, as a "Christmas present" for everyone on the forum?

[Nagilum]

Great read. Thanks for the update

[bighair83]

Strictly playing devil's advocate here, but the EMH was originally designed as a tool to perform the tasks of the chief medical officer in the event of an emergency. I have zero opposition to photonic beings advocating for their rights as sentient beings (read every racial discrimination case in RL human history, including current events), but you can see how Starfleet engineers and techs would base this determination on intended performance, rather than personal interaction, or lack thereof, with the Doctor.

Robert Picardo is an outstanding actor, and I would love to have a cameo incorporated in STO (???), and I enjoy the possibility of having holograms serving as members of Starfleet come the 25th century. I would say it's a tad early to draw inferences between the current timeline and the events of STO, but until then, we can enjoy our imagination.

Thanks Cryptic, I appreciate the obvious consideration and attention to detail displayed thus far, keep it up :cool:

[picardalpha2clearance]

Razor,

Great time line update !

[Michell]

blade is right in this case but not saying enough. the doctor isn't just mad at how he was treated but the fact that he is still a thing in the feds book. this really isn't about the holo emitter. it is about the rights of holograms. the doctor can win the first rights he and others like him need. but if he gives up the emitter he may miss his chance to become legally alive. if he wins the case then the emitter is his property and he would then let them use it for research but if he did it without a fight....when would he have the chance to win the rights to be considered alive. the doctor is thinking about holograms everywhere. after he wins their rights and freedom then he will give the emitter up for research. after all what kind of hologram would he be if he freed his people and then never gave them the same freedom he was enjoying.:)

[player8765k]

^^^ I think Michell hit the nail on the head as it were.

Anyhoo, that was a damn fine time line update.

[Veglargh]

Some one made the comment that he/she thinks that due to this doctor conflict that Cryptic my make holograms playable races.

I was wondering, what else so you guys/gals think that this hologram conflict might effect the game? Could it lead to a hologram revolt? I wonder if it might make "hologram" controlled areas" were you get attacked by hologram revels, as mobs of course?

In Voyager's episode Flesh and Blood 1 and 2 it was demonstrated how versatile holograms can be.


Thank you Cryptic for the new info we appreciate it.

[Sevenblade]

How is it like saying FDR was of equal value as his wheelchair? He’s not being treated as the object here, the emitter is. Which is not even property he really has any claim to other than he’s been using it for a somewhat small period of time. He’s benefited by exploiting a found object of personal convenience he acquired as a uniform member of star fleet. His legal argument is a lot closer to a squatter’s rights case than a civil rights case and even that would be if squatters could claim cars they found idling.

It would be more like if FDR somehow got Stephen Hawkings stolen wheelchair and when the army core of engineers said “This is amazing and could help a lot of vets in ways we may have not been able to for years otherwise!” and FDR said “no it’s mine, **** off.” “Sir couldn’t you just use one of the many, many available wheelchairs (holodecks) like you had been using up until you found that one, at least until we give it back?” “hhhmmmm, nope I like this one, I can make it say stuff in a robot voice!” The worst that could even happen by its absence even if it became permanent is he would continue to live with the same normal reasonably expected limitations he was “born” with and had never been given any assurances against. (The Doctor not FDR)

And (believe me I know how nitpicky this next section will read,:o I apologize in advance for that) it couldn’t really be indefinitely. The most it could be would be 400 years and he actually has a good chance of still being around and basically the same age, and that’s assuming they were never able to reduce the size and improve the mobility of a holoemitter even with the premature presence of one to work off. By the EMH’s existence they’ve shown already you don’t need an entire holodeck to support a photonic being. They’re not reinventing the wheel they’re shrinking something they’re already building on a regular basis. Going from a VAX to and Iphone only took 40 years and that’s without a good amount of sweet star trek Deus ex Machina. If worst comes to worse and all they can do is replicate it without fully understanding it he would still gets it back.

I know Bones Mccoy must have passed on by 2382 because he would have marched in to the Doctors quarters, smacked him around and taken the emitter if he had an ounce of life left to do it with.

You're still looking at the Doctor as just another piece of technology, which is exactly the whole reason for his lawsuit. Yes, he did start life as just another program, and one for use in a backup scenario, at that, but the fact is, he was allowed to evolve beyond that, improve past his programming, just like Data. The only difference is between the two is their starting nature and the nature of the technology that gives them existence. And as we know, Data has already stood trial on this and won. The Doctor is fighting not primarily for possession of the emitter, but what possession of that emitter represents. If he is given the emitter back, it's not just a simple property case. It acknowledges that the Doctor has real legal and personal rights in a court of law, and that's something more important than any piece of technology.

And despite your protestations to the contrary, he very much is being treated like an object. I'm amazed that you fail to see it. By simply taking the emitter away, the Admiralty is essentially stepping all over any of his desires or feelings the Doctor may have had about it. Since my FDR analogy didn't get through to you, here's a more basic one: the Doctor has the same value to the Admiralty as slaves did in the colonial southern United States. They were property, plain and simple, and you could do whatever you wanted with property.

As for the nature of the legality to his claim, yes, you are somewhat right that he's mostly using squatter's rights to claim it, but then how does the Federation have even that much claim on it? Basically their argument is "Finders keepers". Extremely mature, and very substantial in court :rolleyes:. At least the Doctor was able to get an immediate use out of it, which, until he returned home for it to be taken away for research, the Federation did not have. The Doctor was the only one to benefit from the emitter, so naturally possession went to him. As it greatly increased his quality of life, it became a de facto property of his, if not in name. And I think you'll find quality of life arguments can hold a decent amount of water in court.

So taking away the emitter would not be a minor inconvenience, as you would try and pass it off as. Just watch any episode where the emitter goes offline or for some reason he is once again confined to sickbay. Once he has tasted his version of a real, human life with his mobility, even a few hours without it make him miserable. Imagine if all of a sudden someone confined you to one room indefinitely, saying "Sorry, but we need your legs (not the same, I know, but humans have few equivalents) for research! You can have them back when we're done....whenever that is!"

It was my understanding that complex techonology like this can't be easily replicated, which is why you never see someone replicate a phaser randomly. They can replicate individual parts, but then it has to be assembled correctly. Otherwise, why wouldn't Voyager have just replicated the emitter a bunch of times to have backups, or even better, ones to tinker with so they can reverse-engineer it? So yes, it is an indefinite amount of time (make sure you're not confusing 'indefinite' with 'infinite', as those are two very distinct things). They don't know when (or if) they'll finally crack the mechanisms that make the emitter work, so the Doctor could, in all eventuality, be confined to a holodeck for 400 years.

You say this isn't a big deal, as he's just a hologram, so he'll still be around. But he measures time exactly the same as we do, and clearly would grow bored just as easily as we would. Yeah, he can be deactivated, but then you disorient him by replacing all the people he knew and developed relationships with as they age, while he doesn't. With an emitter, he could imitate a free-roaming, human life, and then choose to deactivate himself after all of his relationships age and die like normal humans. Instead, you now have him leapfrogging through time, which can't be a pleasant experience. And then the potential 400 years is a long time for technology to last. I challenge you to find a piece of technology that was built (not invented. Built) 400 years ago that works today perfectly (because in order to prevent degrading of his program, the holodeck's memory would have to remain perfect for 400 years).







Sorry for the wall of text, but thanks for putting up with it and providing an intelligent, lively debate for me. I hope you don't think I'm trying to be belligerent. It's just refreshing to find someone who is my equal or better intellectually who will have a rational discussion online :D

[tom_riker01]

It hasn't been hit on yet, but you know very well its coming. The return of the TalShiar, the Obsidian Order and I'm sure Section 31 will be alive and kicking. Oh baby...black ops missions and espionage.

[willriker09]

Some very interesting twists...now that Ro Laren is head of security for DS9 I want to know where Odo went!!!

Odo went to the Founder homeworld, remember?

I liked this update, but I would like to see some more focus shifted from the Romulan problems. Isn't it enough to just say that Unification is still trying to get going and there is a civil war for control of the Empire? Brings up the question of how many years these Romulan problems will go on for before we finally get near 2409.

I liked the bit about Ro Laren, it didn't make sense to me that she turned herself in with the first timeline update but now that we see that she wanted to go back to Bajor since the Maquis have been extinguished it makes sense.

I would also like to know why Picard and Seven are working on anti-Borg defenses and why we didn't get any more info on how that is coming along.

[MrDobilina]

i really love these persistant events adding to the story, i hope this continues daily/weekly when the game is released!

[Thraken]

Odo went to the Founder homeworld, remember?

I liked this update, but I would like to see some more focus shifted from the Romulan problems. Isn't it enough to just say that Unification is still trying to get going and there is a civil war for control of the Empire? Brings up the question of how many years these Romulan problems will go on for before we finally get near 2409.

I liked the bit about Ro Laren, it didn't make sense to me that she turned herself in with the first timeline update but now that we see that she wanted to go back to Bajor since the Maquis have been extinguished it makes sense.

I would also like to know why Picard and Seven are working on anti-Borg defenses and why we didn't get any more info on how that is coming along.

SPOILER - Highlight to see > Odo and a handful of other founders that were sent out into the Galaxy are now the leaders of the Dominion as the Great Link has disbanded in the books. (The founders are a dying race. no way to reproduce or otherwise 'increase')

[callsign11b]

there building up the story line why the feds, klingons and soon I hope romulans are at war with each other.
there just planting the seeds of conflict with federation and klingon by klingon actions with the romulans.
and adding open conflict between romulans and klingons. to set the stage.
I thought the update was good.

[RockMax]

Sucks for The Doctor, I hope he gets his emitter back. On the other hand the chance to study the emitter is too precious to give up. I suggest a compromise, The Doctor gets to keep his emitter, but Starfleet can study it when he doesn't need it, lets say for when he's at home or doesn't require the mobile emitter since he may be in a facility with built in emitters.

[mendal]

I wonder if Vulcans and Romulans will be united by the time we start playing or will Spock pass away without completing his mission.

[Vicelance]

nice update, I'd like to hear more about the Ferengi, Gorn, Nausicans, and Orions and why they join the factions they by 2409..

[Tylor_Liles]

bring data back somehow!!! and about the doc, make him CMO on USS Voyager. besides that nice timeline!!! what letter ENTERPRISE will we be at in 2409? wonder what the klingons will do with khitomer...

[Sckullzy]

You're still looking at the Doctor as just another piece of technology, which is exactly the whole reason for his lawsuit. Yes, he did start life as just another program, and one for use in a backup scenario, at that, but the fact is, he was allowed to evolve beyond that, improve past his programming, just like Data. The only difference is between the two is their starting nature and the nature of the technology that gives them existence. And as we know, Data has already stood trial on this and won. The Doctor is fighting not primarily for possession of the emitter, but what possession of that emitter represents. If he is given the emitter back, it's not just a simple property case. It acknowledges that the Doctor has real legal and personal rights in a court of law, and that's something more important than any piece of technology.

And despite your protestations to the contrary, he very much is being treated like an object. I'm amazed that you fail to see it. By simply taking the emitter away, the Admiralty is essentially stepping all over any of his desires or feelings the Doctor may have had about it. Since my FDR analogy didn't get through to you, here's a more basic one: the Doctor has the same value to the Admiralty as slaves did in the colonial southern United States. They were property, plain and simple, and you could do whatever you wanted with property.

As for the nature of the legality to his claim, yes, you are somewhat right that he's mostly using squatter's rights to claim it, but then how does the Federation have even that much claim on it? Basically their argument is "Finders keepers". Extremely mature, and very substantial in court :rolleyes:. At least the Doctor was able to get an immediate use out of it, which, until he returned home for it to be taken away for research, the Federation did not have. The Doctor was the only one to benefit from the emitter, so naturally possession went to him. As it greatly increased his quality of life, it became a de facto property of his, if not in name. And I think you'll find quality of life arguments can hold a decent amount of water in court.

So taking away the emitter would not be a minor inconvenience, as you would try and pass it off as. Just watch any episode where the emitter goes offline or for some reason he is once again confined to sickbay. Once he has tasted his version of a real, human life with his mobility, even a few hours without it make him miserable. Imagine if all of a sudden someone confined you to one room indefinitely, saying "Sorry, but we need your legs (not the same, I know, but humans have few equivalents) for research! You can have them back when we're done....whenever that is!"

It was my understanding that complex techonology like this can't be easily replicated, which is why you never see someone replicate a phaser randomly. They can replicate individual parts, but then it has to be assembled correctly. Otherwise, why wouldn't Voyager have just replicated the emitter a bunch of times to have backups, or even better, ones to tinker with so they can reverse-engineer it? So yes, it is an indefinite amount of time (make sure you're not confusing 'indefinite' with 'infinite', as those are two very distinct things). They don't know when (or if) they'll finally crack the mechanisms that make the emitter work, so the Doctor could, in all eventuality, be confined to a holodeck for 400 years.

You say this isn't a big deal, as he's just a hologram, so he'll still be around. But he measures time exactly the same as we do, and clearly would grow bored just as easily as we would. Yeah, he can be deactivated, but then you disorient him by replacing all the people he knew and developed relationships with as they age, while he doesn't. With an emitter, he could imitate a free-roaming, human life, and then choose to deactivate himself after all of his relationships age and die like normal humans. Instead, you now have him leapfrogging through time, which can't be a pleasant experience. And then the potential 400 years is a long time for technology to last. I challenge you to find a piece of technology that was built (not invented. Built) 400 years ago that works today perfectly (because in order to prevent degrading of his program, the holodeck's memory would have to remain perfect for 400 years).


Sorry for the wall of text, but thanks for putting up with it and providing an intelligent, lively debate for me. I hope you don't think I'm trying to be belligerent. It's just refreshing to find someone who is my equal or better intellectually who will have a rational discussion online :D



It amazes me how backwards you see my view of this. I’m not saying holo people can’t have ownership, I’m saying uniform officers (which he still is) aren’t really supposed to be able to take home everything they find on a tour, even if they really like it. If in WW2 one of the officers decided to keep the enigma machine they found because he had a lot of stuff at home he really wanted to code, it would have been a bit of a problem. Even If a civilian like Jonas Salk created the Polio vaccine and then said “sorry, there’s really just enough for me” He would have gone down as one of history’s great monsters. “Finders keepers” is the Doctors only argument and it’s for the benefit of one man and the detriment of humanity. Not humanity he is separate from as a hologram, humanity he is responsible for as a doctor, as member of star fleet and as a sentient being.
I’m in no way saying you can take it because he’s the product of technology. His humanity isn’t even being questioned let alone being taken away, his stolen vehicle is, temporarily, for study to benefit the many, specifically all other self aware photonic life forms. His mind isn’t being infringed on in any form. He would not be confined to one room because he can go to any room with a holo emitter system, which is as much as his own normal physical form would have ever reasonably allowed. If he wants to host his own lecture tour hitting every academy, ship, or most likely large residence by this point he could do it. His mind won’t degrade within 400 years because it’s not tied to some physical hard copy, he’s not running off an old 8track that’s wearing out. If one holodecks memory is having problems he can go to any other one.
He’s not a champion of photonic life forms rights, he the only guy with a wheelchair and suing people for trying to make more.


No need to apologize, this type of question is what I love about Star Trek. I've always liked when Sci-fi can be used to show allegories of society and the human condition. Star trek and a lot of old Twilight zone was always great for that. I like a good cheastbusting parasite too but this is good.
It's even what seems to separate a Trek forum, it gets heated but I haven't seen one person bring up anyone elses mother once in this forum.

[Michell]

It amazes me how backwards you see my view of this. I’m not saying holo people can’t have ownership, I’m saying uniform officers (which he still is) aren’t really supposed to be able to take home everything they find on a tour, even if they really like it. If in WW2 one of the officers decided to keep the enigma machine they found because he had a lot of stuff at home he really wanted to code, it would have been a bit of a problem. Even If a civilian like Jonas Salk created the Polio vaccine and then said “sorry, there’s really just enough for me” He would have gone down as one of history’s great monsters. “Finders keepers” is the Doctors only argument and it’s for the benefit of one man and the detriment of humanity. Not humanity he is separate from as a hologram, humanity he is responsible for as a doctor, as member of star fleet and as a sentient being.
I’m in no way saying you can take it because he’s the product of technology. His humanity isn’t even being questioned let alone being taken away, his stolen vehicle is, temporarily, for study to benefit the many, specifically all other self aware photonic life forms. His mind isn’t being infringed on in any form. He would not be confined to one room because he can go to any room with a holo emitter system, which is as much as his own normal physical form would have ever reasonably allowed. If he wants to host his own lecture tour hitting every academy, ship, or most likely large residence by this point he could do it. His mind won’t degrade within 400 years because it’s not tied to some physical hard copy, he’s not running off an old 8track that’s wearing out. If one holodecks memory is having problems he can go to any other one.
He’s not a champion of photonic life forms rights, he the only guy with a wheelchair and suing people for trying to make more.


No need to apologize, this type of question is what I love about Star Trek. I've always liked when Sci-fi can be used to show allegories of society and the human condition. Star trek and a lot of old Twilight zone was always great for that. I like a good cheastbusting parasite too but this is good.
It's even what seems to separate a Trek forum, it gets heated but I haven't seen one person bring up anyone elses mother once in this forum.

i posted this but it would seem no one has read it. sigh... such is the life of posting lol

blade is right in this case but not saying enough. the doctor isn't just mad at how he was treated but the fact that he is still a thing in the feds book. this really isn't about the holo emitter. it is about the rights of holograms. the doctor can win the first rights he and others like him need. but if he gives up the emitter he may miss his chance to become legally alive. if he wins the case then the emitter will become his property and he would then let them use it for research but if he let them have it without a fight....when would he have the chance to win the rights to be considered alive. the doctor is thinking about holograms everywhere. after he wins their rights and freedom then he will give the emitter up for research. after all what kind of hologram would he be if he freed his people and then never gave them the same freedom he was enjoying.:)

[Captain_Intrepid]

What a turn of events!

From the troubles of Romulus and Remus to the EMH to Bajor!

Most surprising is the Mobile Emmitter. Hasn't Star Fleet run into enough problems with sentients who they deem to be their property, such as Data, his 'daughter', and sentient drones before? Will they ever learn?

[Qnaz]

The Klingon Empire takes advantage of the weak position of the Romulans to stage lightning strikes into Romulan space, retaking Khitomer and the sector surrounding it. The Federation Council criticizes the move, but Ambassador K’mtok responds that the empire is simply reclaiming territory that belonged to the Klingons by right.

Score one for the Empire! Good to see Klingon news in this update.

[RowdyRandyDJ]

I will neither condem nor support what the Klingons have done, but I think we all should keep a close eye on this situation as it could escalate.

[jonleach]

Thanks for the installment, things are really begining to come together.

[justicenic]

interesting very open ended though glad there is finally another installment in the series:eek: and they are doing a good job of tying in all the different series

[Nelson]

Thank you for the update, sounds like you all are putting alot of thought into these updates and I am loving them...

[Dark_MatterTRON]

I enjoyed this particular one, though I'm very concerned about The Doctor. :/

Perhaps in the next one, we can get a paragraph or two detailing what our favorite characters are up to. It was nice hearing about what Ro was up to, but maybe we can hear about Sisko, Picard, Janeway, and the respective crews of each.

[KlingonWarrior]

*I thought DS9 was still a Federation starbase, so how does Ro get to be security chief for the Bajorans there? Or did I miss something?:confused:



I believe that at the end of DS9's run, the Federation turned the station over to Bajor so they basically were given complete control of its operations unless that changed during Voyagers run. (I missed most of the Voyager episodes). As for Ro being made head of security, remember, the Bajorans have adopted a militia style defense. As is true with most militias, they recognize certain qualities in people that the militia can benefit from. And if I remember, Ro was Starfleet, was she not? Therefore she can bring the same type of tactics that Kira could to the station.

[Skaeggbiffen]

This is indeed a Cryptic story :rolleyes:

Give me more about Cardassia!

[leafslayer]

Interesting stuff.

Thank you

[tab]

what is the "imperial romulan empire"???

[Ensign.Ricky]

what is the "imperial romulan empire"???

I think they are talking about what was mentioned in the last summary:

Donatra declares herself the first empress of the Imperial Romulan State and establishes a capitol on Archenar Prime.

It does sound a little too close to Imperial Klingon Empire though.

[Fvillha]

what is the "imperial romulan empire"???

The Imperial Romulan Empire, aks The Imperial Romulan State was a state founded by Donatra, formerly a commander in the Romulan Imperial Fleet, in late 2380 (seen in the Star Trek Nemesis movie).

See wiki url for more details http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Romulan_State

Also the past two summaries Path Time lines summarize Cryptics version and follows most Post Nemesis novels, so far.

[nsb2008]

Thanks for the Ro drop in T_T it shakes up the book based timelines but thanks for the consideration in any case

About her being head of security - Well remember that the Bajorans probably don't care overly much about her fighting cardassians, Ro joined the Bajoran militia not starfleet and thus is not a member of the federation and Colonel Kira Nerys commands DS9 and makes the final decision.

Kira was entered into Starfleet service to train Damar's Dominion resistant movement. I've not read a post-DS9 book yet that says she disregarded her Starfleet commission after this. So she'd still be in Starfleet, right? Besides... while the Bajoran Government controls Deep Space Nine, they are actively seeking Federation Membership - and when that happens - the Bajoran Militia will be no more - as it will be absorbed into Starfleet.

There's a DS9 book called Unity - brilliant read... wonder if Cryptic will incorporate it in their build up to game launch?

[John]

wow some really great stuff i sure hope everything works out for the doctor since i liked his guy in voyager

[miqrogroove]

Schweeeet.....
repeated apocalyptic Borg bashings of the Alpha quadrant that makes Wolf 359, First Contact and all the Voyager encounters seem like captain Archer getting beaten up by yet another alien of the week -_-


Beaten up, taken hostage, then tossed into a nondescript room/cell with a concrete floor and no bed. That was pretty much half of all ENT episodes. :rolleyes:

[arakkis]

I knew it! I knew that it was going to be an attack into Romulan space that would start Klingon/Federation tension. Keep em coming guys!

[KL0k]

maybe i found a clue, where the story is heading to.. just watched a few tng episodes, and "all good things" comes to mind.
im so curious.. am i right or not? damn.. cant wait :D

[BeowulfDoomhammer]

Good to see those Romulan petaQ's get taken down a peg.

[Sloan_S31]

Bajor should most definately be part of the Federation by that time. She was just about to join but her membership was put off only because of the war that broke out. Maybe even delayed a couple more years because Sisko disapeared but it seemed like Federation membership was all but certain now that the war ended...

A cooler thought would be that they replaced that cardassian junk station with a brand new state-of-the-art Starfleet-built DS9-A

Other then that, it should be noted that the Romulan faction is in fact named "Romulan Star Empire" and not "Imperial Romulan Empire"

But in all, cryptic's stuff continues to be pretty well-informed and exciting!

[J.L.Picard]

Why on earth is Ro Laren being even put into the Militia??? when they join the Federation the Militia will be integrated with Starfleet and she will be booted out, so wth happened to Kira? LOL

the doctor hologram is more or less a crappy version of what happens to Data in TNG, the difference being that he WILL looose the Emitter since it is Federation Property

[Sckullzy]

i posted this but it would seem no one has read it. sigh... such is the life of posting lol

blade is right in this case but not saying enough. the doctor isn't just mad at how he was treated but the fact that he is still a thing in the feds book. this really isn't about the holo emitter. it is about the rights of holograms. the doctor can win the first rights he and others like him need. but if he gives up the emitter he may miss his chance to become legally alive. if he wins the case then the emitter will become his property and he would then let them use it for research but if he let them have it without a fight....when would he have the chance to win the rights to be considered alive. the doctor is thinking about holograms everywhere. after he wins their rights and freedom then he will give the emitter up for research. after all what kind of hologram would he be if he freed his people and then never gave them the same freedom he was enjoying.:)

This isn’t about if the Doctor is alive or not it’s about the Doctor’s “right” to personally hoard an advancement he didn’t build or even buy. It’s a tool he obtained it while on active duty and in uniform.

What If Harry Kim during his time in the Delta quadrant found a device that let him survive the exposure of open space? It’s an amazing piece of equipment that is way too complex to duplicate with the resources on Voyager. Harry isn’t the only person who can use it but with his technical skills he’s best suited to use it safely so it becomes sort of his pet project. When Voyager get’s back to the Alpha quadrant it’s immediately recognized for its benefits and potential to save lives even if they can only learn a great amount from it but not duplicate it outright, to which Harry says “No I use this a lot. Go find your own.” There wouldn’t be a big debate, there would be a ship full of crew mates standing stunned in mortified silence at his inappropriate grab for personal gain and indifference to the greater good followed by a quick court marshal for misappropriation and conduct unbecoming a member of star fleet.

If he was say, a pirate or in a crew of bank robbers it might be ok but when you’re an authority figure to say nothing of someone who carries the title doctor, it’s a pretty ugly trend to set. This isn’t the Ferengi alliance. I don’t even know if star fleet uniforms actually have pockets but we certainly shouldn’t need to check them to make sure officers haven’t “decided” something they’ve found on duty is now theirs.

[Kweb8876]

Very good read......

Cadet Webster - Out !

[USS_Paragon]

Awesome! Except for the part about Ro as chief of security at DS9. Not sure how I feel about that... I guess time will tell.

[Michell]

This isn’t about if the Doctor is alive or not it’s about the Doctor’s “right” to personally hoard an advancement he didn’t build or even buy. It’s a tool he obtained it while on active duty and in uniform.

What If Harry Kim during his time in the Delta quadrant found a device that let him survive the exposure of open space? It’s an amazing piece of equipment that is way too complex to duplicate with the resources on Voyager. Harry isn’t the only person who can use it but with his technical skills he’s best suited to use it safely so it becomes sort of his pet project. When Voyager get’s back to the Alpha quadrant it’s immediately recognized for its benefits and potential to save lives even if they can only learn a great amount from it but not duplicate it outright, to which Harry says “No I use this a lot. Go find your own.” There wouldn’t be a big debate, there would be a ship full of crew mates standing stunned in mortified silence at his inappropriate grab for personal gain and indifference to the greater good followed by a quick court marshal for misappropriation and conduct unbecoming a member of star fleet.

If he was say, a pirate or in a crew of bank robbers it might be ok but when you’re an authority figure to say nothing of someone who carries the title doctor, it’s a pretty ugly trend to set. This isn’t the Ferengi alliance. I don’t even know if star fleet uniforms actually have pockets but we certainly shouldn’t need to check them to make sure officers haven’t “decided” something they’ve found on duty is now theirs.

lol why do you think he is doing this out of greed. did you even watch the voyager series? the doc. has been trying to get his rights to be considered a life form since day one when he started to ask for people to treat him like another member of the crew not just a tool. he can't give up the emitter till he has won hologram life form rights. if he gave up the emitter without the legal battle then he may never get a chance to make holograms legal life forms and then have all the rights life forms have in the federation. it has nothing to do with him wanting to keep the emitter...he is just using it as a platform on witch he can make a case to say he is alive. because by saying "that the mobile emitter is necessary to his quality of life and performance of his duties." he is making a case that he is a conscious being. if he wasn't a life form then he would have no right to own the emitter and as you said it would be taken from him, but if he wins then the court would have to rule that he is indeed alive and that they would then have to treat him like a life form. he would then just give the emitter up for research so one day they could make hundreds more for all holograms. like i said this isn't about the emitter nor greed. it is about freedom for him and all conscious holograms like professor Moriarty from TNG.

[jsutich]

I'm happy you're enjoying the updates! Kestrel is the one to thank, however :)

btw is it possible to link the stories togather with a < for backward and > for forward. so we dont have to keep going to the main page.

This is a good idea and we will try to get something like this on the site.

[RogueEnterprise]

I know it's a little early to think about it now, but how about something graphical to show off the timeline? Think the grand Star Trek timeline formerly at the Star Trek Experience in Vegas... updated with the major events transpiring in the timeline. Since there are only a few years available now it wouldn't make much sense... but maybe something updated every 5 years? Just a thought.

[govwilbea]

I too like and appreciate the effort Cryptic is making with the timeline updates. People should be reminded that you don't have to do this......and thus I thank you even more. It helps us gain some insight into lost time between Nemesis and STO launch it helps us connects the dots as to how we got to where we are. I truly am optimstic that this will be a great game and I can't wait to take my captains chair and engage!!!! Great job keep em coming

[Saaxton]

Here's a thought.

I'm wondering...perhaps The Doctor finds a way to work with Starfleet to learn to replicate the mobile emitters.

Could it be possible that the NPC crew aboard each of our ships could be sentient/non-sentient holograms wearing mobile emitters that are commanded/controlled by the captain?

Just a thought.

~Saaxton

[CyberQat]

So, an observation follwoed by a question...

The more agressive stacne of the Klingons feels like a regression back more to the socio/political situation of the original series. Not that I object mind you, in many ways I find it mreo intresting.

In the new serieses the Klingons became good guys and the Romulins were basically demoted from noble adversary to slimey enemy.

Are we going to see the return of Romulins portrayed as enemies due respect and, in their own way, as strictly (or more so) adhearing to a societal moral code as humans? In short, will we get likable Romulins again?

And if so, will we get to chose to play them?

CQ

[Sevenblade]

I know it's a little early to think about it now, but how about something graphical to show off the timeline? Think the grand Star Trek timeline formerly at the Star Trek Experience in Vegas... updated with the major events transpiring in the timeline. Since there are only a few years available now it wouldn't make much sense... but maybe something updated every 5 years? Just a thought.

I second this.

Bajor should most definately be part of the Federation by that time. She was just about to join but her membership was put off only because of the war that broke out. Maybe even delayed a couple more years because Sisko disapeared but it seemed like Federation membership was all but certain now that the war ended...

A cooler thought would be that they replaced that cardassian junk station with a brand new state-of-the-art Starfleet-built DS9-A

Other then that, it should be noted that the Romulan faction is in fact named "Romulan Star Empire" and not "Imperial Romulan Empire"

But in all, cryptic's stuff continues to be pretty well-informed and exciting!

Actually, if you would read the update closer, the "Romulan Star Empire" is the 'official' Romulan faction that we all know from the shows/movies. The "Imperial Romulan State" is a breakaway faction set up by Donatra in opposition to Tal'Aura's control over the Empire. It's basically the same situation as the People's Republic of China vs. the Republic of China (more commonly known as Taiwan), except more hostile.

[Tredbeast]

This is my first post, and I have to say, I am really liking everything I see and read! The timeline story is very good, and is opening up many different potential sub-plots. It is all really good stuff! Kudos, Cryptic!

I particularly like the discussions already created by the issue of the Dr. and the mobile emmitter, regarding the moral, logical, and precedent-setting aspects of how this could play out. I am especially curious as to how this will work into the STO universe, and the various options that it may present to us as players.

Keep these updates coming!

[Bazil]

The doctor better get his rights! Otherwise I refuse to play this game.

[Sckullzy]

lol why do you think he is doing this out of greed. did you even watch the voyager series? the doc. has been trying to get his rights to be considered a life form since day one when he started to ask for people to treat him like another member of the crew not just a tool. he can't give up the emitter till he has won hologram life form rights. if he gave up the emitter without the legal battle then he may never get a chance to make holograms legal life forms and then have all the rights life forms have in the federation. it has nothing to do with him wanting to keep the emitter...he is just using it as a platform on witch he can make a case to say he is alive. because by saying "that the mobile emitter is necessary to his quality of life and performance of his duties." he is making a case that he is a conscious being. if he wasn't a life form then he would have no right to own the emitter and as you said it would be taken from him, but if he wins then the court would have to rule that he is indeed alive and that they would then have to treat him like a life form. he would then just give the emitter up for research so one day they could make hundreds more for all holograms. like i said this isn't about the emitter nor greed. it is about freedom for him and all conscious holograms like professor Moriarty from TNG.
Who used the word greed? If he was franchising a mass produced holo emitter for profit at least it would reach the public on mass. But for him to do that he would have to produce a blueprint or at least a receipt showing he has ANY version of ownership in the first place.
There are a thousand different versions of selfishness that have nothing to do with monetary gain. I’m saying people seem to have a remarkable amount of compassion for a single familiar character who is hoarding a dubiously acquired advancement for his own benefit while turning a blind eye to the multitudes of faceless others it could help. But he’s someone we have gotten to know over the years so we don’t look at him as an egocentric sociopath, we look at him as funny ol’ Dr. No-name and we wish him well because we know he’s such a good guy.
Take in to account that with the probably billions of people in the federation have access to holodeck it’s unlikely that the Doctor, Moriarty, Regina and Vic Fontaine are the only Photonic people who are self aware. There may be thousands of photonic people by this era and that’s if you don’t count all the EMH’s other than the Doctor. Why is it ok to keep them in a holodeck but not him? Then add the benefits of having field EMH’s and the possibility of this being the means to design the personal shield. Keeping in mind he is the one keeping them there while he clutches on to something he has no claim to in the first place.

But hey if it happens to one it’s a horrible tragedy, if it happens to 2 million it’s a dry statistic.

You can in fact initiate a lawsuit for recognition without halting the use of a safety related product. There was just a movie (that admittedly no one saw) about this very subject.

I second this.
Actually, if you would read the update closer, the "Romulan Star Empire" is the 'official' Romulan faction that we all know from the shows/movies. The "Imperial Romulan State" is a breakaway faction set up by Donatra in opposition to Tal'Aura's control over the Empire. It's basically the same situation as the People's Republic of China vs. the Republic of China (more commonly known as Taiwan), except more hostile.
That is a brilliant complex story they’re making. I also love the “I Claudius” references to the same issues that are timeless within any republic in a time of crisis. Hell Canada just suspended its parliament.


The doctor better get his rights! Otherwise I refuse to play this game.

Do you want him to have right, or them to have have rights?

[muttw7]

what is the "imperial romulan empire"???

lol, a little redundancy anyone? I wonder if the Allied Ferengi Alliance will make an appearance. j/k. I'm sure it was just a typo.

Concerning the Klingons invading Romulan space, good for us! I mean them. The Klingons have been supressing their nature (destiny as rulers of the galaxy even) for far too long in the interest of friendship with the Federation. Their debt for the Enterprise C's intervention at Khitomer has long since been paid. It's about time that the Klingons conquered the Romulan Empire. The Romulans are far too smug for their own good. Plus, as someone beat me to pointing out, in the episode "All Good Things" the Klingons DID conquer the Romulan Empire. You wouldn't want to mess with canon... WOULD YOU Cryptic? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it's a POSSIBLE future, but it just makes too much sense.

Similarly, we all know who's gonna win between the Klingons and Feds. The Klingons. Already happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise", or was about to anyway. The Federation'll make a better fight of it than the Romulans, although I wouldn't mind seeing a Romulan resistance subplot. It might also add incentive on the Romulan side for unification.

I'm gonna have to take Zombie's side on the EMH issue. His claim to the emitter is far too weak to use as a platform for rights for holograms. Plus, in the meantime he's delaying freedom of mobility for all holograms. I'm sure he could come up with a better way to push the issue to the forefront. The holo-novel case for instance.

[Sevenblade]

lol, a little redundancy anyone? I wonder if the Allied Ferengi Alliance will make an appearance. j/k. I'm sure it was just a typo.

That's because it wasn't written that way. :rolleyes: If you read the update, and not the guy's post, it's the "Imperial Romulan State", not Empire. The one commanded by Tal'Aura, the official empire, is called the "Romulan Star Empire". A very fine distinction, but an important one.

Similarly, we all know who's gonna win between the Klingons and Feds. The Klingons. Already happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise", or was about to anyway. The Federation'll make a better fight of it than the Romulans, although I wouldn't mind seeing a Romulan resistance subplot. It might also add incentive on the Romulan side for unification.

I'm gonna have to take Zombie's side on the EMH issue. His claim to the emitter is far too weak to use as a platform for rights for holograms. Plus, in the meantime he's delaying freedom of mobility for all holograms. I'm sure he could come up with a better way to push the issue to the forefront. The holo-novel case for instance.

I'm really not understanding how you guys aren't looking at the bigger picture with the Doctor. You keep focusing in on the possession part of the case, singling in one the emitter itself. It's just not about that. If it was a simple possession case, yes, he would lose entirely, as you've mentioned plenty of good reasons why his claim on it is tenuous at best (but then again, so is the Admiralty's :rolleyes:). He's not fighting them just because he wants to be able to walk around freely in the time period they would be researching it, though. The reason he's even bothering to challenge it in court is because even though he supposedly gained rights after the holonovel incident, he's still being treated as a second-class citizen and being forcibly stripped of a possession that transcends the normals boundaries of a possession. As no one else but another hologram could use it, and few others have expanded beyond their program to become sentient, he is uniquely suited to use it, as it vastly improves his quality of life and allows him to continue to expand his attempts to become more human. It'd be like if we said, "Ok, Data, you can live and attempt to gain humanity, but we need your legs to help us research new prostheses or protoypes of Soong-type androids."

Like I said before, the crux of the issue is not about the emitter and whether the Federation should have it to study from. It's that the Doctor, his desires, and his supposedly (relatively) new humanity isn't even factored in when they consider taking it. If he was granted all the rights of another sentient being, as he is supposed to, he would at least have due process and/or the Admiralty would have approached him saying "Hey, we need this to improve the life of all holograms in the Quadrant". Now, if someone had said this to the Doctor, do you really think he would have been so selfish as to hoard it to himself? I doubt it. But the timeline offers nothing to imply that anyone consulted him or presented him with this request, so as far as we know, it was pretty much forcibly taken, as the Doctor still isn't a first-class citizen in the eyes of the Admiralty.

[muttw7]

That's because it wasn't written that way. :rolleyes: If you read the update, and not the guy's post, it's the "Imperial Romulan State", not Empire. The one commanded by Tal'Aura, the official empire, is called the "Romulan Star Empire". A very fine distinction, but an important one.

From the update, and not the guy's post:

"The loss of agricultural planets now claimed by the Imperial Romulan Empire threatens Romulus with severe food shortages."

:D It's OK, stuff like that can be easy to miss. I don't mean to be nit-picky, I just thought it was amusing.

He's not fighting them just because he wants to be able to walk around freely in the time period they would be researching it, though.

That's the basis of his argument though:

"arguing that he is a sentient being who acted as a member of Starfleet during Voyager’s time in the Delta Quadrant and that the mobile emitter is necessary to his quality of life and performance of his duties."


The reason he's even bothering to challenge it in court is because even though he supposedly gained rights after the holonovel incident, he's still being treated as a second-class citizen and being forcibly stripped of a possession that transcends the normals boundaries of a possession. As no one else but another hologram could use it, and few others have expanded beyond their program to become sentient, he is uniquely suited to use it, as it vastly improves his quality of life and allows him to continue to expand his attempts to become more human. It'd be like if we said, "Ok, Data, you can live and attempt to gain humanity, but we need your legs to help us research new prostheses or protoypes of Soong-type androids."

I don't see it that way at all, I think it's much closer to the Harry Kim analogy made by Zombie than taking Data's legs (which were created as part of his body and aren't really a possession any more than ours are). As we've seen in numerous episodes, it's becoming standard procedure to install holo-emitters throughout starships and Starfleet installations. His mobility would be greater to a degree than a biological life-form because he could be almost instantaneously transferred almost anywhere within Federation space as long as the right hardware was in place. I think another analogy which would be much closer would be Geordi finding contact lenses while on an away mission which would give him perfect "normal" sight. Starfleet would be completely within their right to appropriate them for reverse engineering. Would you say Geordi should be able to keep them because it improves his quality of life and only another blind man would be able to benefit from them in a world where blindness has become a rarity.

Like I said before, the crux of the issue is not about the emitter and whether the Federation should have it to study from. It's that the Doctor, his desires, and his supposedly (relatively) new humanity isn't even factored in when they consider taking it. If he was granted all the rights of another sentient being, as he is supposed to, he would at least have due process and/or the Admiralty would have approached him saying "Hey, we need this to improve the life of all holograms in the Quadrant". Now, if someone had said this to the Doctor, do you really think he would have been so selfish as to hoard it to himself? I doubt it. But the timeline offers nothing to imply that anyone consulted him or presented him with this request, so as far as we know, it was pretty much forcibly taken, as the Doctor still isn't a first-class citizen in the eyes of the Admiralty.

The way the story read to me was Starfleet ordered the emitter to be sent to a research facility for study. The doctor said no, you don't have the right to take it from me. Which they did. Since it wasn't really legally his property to begin with. On Voyager it would've held more water since it was necessary in order to expand certain aspects of his duty as CMO, especially earlier on before emitters were added throughout the ship. Plus Voyager didn't have the resources to properly study and/or attempt to reproduce it.

If Starfleet DOES try to make it about his rights as a hologram they'll lose and look bad since there was no reason to go that route in the first place. If they make it about the emitter itself they'll get it and the Doctor will look silly for trying to make it about something else entirely. This isn't about what we think he would do, it's about what appears to be happening in the storyline. Which by the way, as I forgot to say in my first post has been pretty nice reading. Thanks Cryptic, keep 'em coming. More screenshots would be much appreciated as well. Maybe some Klingon ships? It's been pretty heavily Federation so far.

[IG_Slayer]

They had it coming

[Samurai02008]

Hey everyone, Samurai02008 is the name, first time poster to the Star Trek Online forums long time viewer of the website. I must say I would have thought that Admiral Paris would have had more respect for the Doctor than that. I understand the need to advance technology like the mobile emitter, but come on its the same problem with when Starfleet tried to have Data taken apart and examined. POWER TO THE DOCTOR! (Clears throat) But I also say I think its good that former Ensign Ro got to work as Security aboard DS9.

[Sevenblade]

From the update, and not the guy's post:

"The loss of agricultural planets now claimed by the Imperial Romulan Empire threatens Romulus with severe food shortages."

:D It's OK, stuff like that can be easy to miss. I don't mean to be nit-picky, I just thought it was amusing.

Ah, ok then. My bad. That's a typo on Cryptic's part, then, not the forum poster's. Though a few people did take the typo at face value, so I was referring to previous posters, not the specific one you replied to. What I said still stands, though. Empress Donatra's breakaway faction is called the "Imperial Romulan State", while Praetor Tal'Aura's official faction we know from the series is the "Romulan Star Empire".

That's the basis of his argument though:

"arguing that he is a sentient being who acted as a member of Starfleet during Voyager’s time in the Delta Quadrant and that the mobile emitter is necessary to his quality of life and performance of his duties."




I don't see it that way at all, I think it's much closer to the Harry Kim analogy made by Zombie than taking Data's legs (which were created as part of his body and aren't really a possession any more than ours are). As we've seen in numerous episodes, it's becoming standard procedure to install holo-emitters throughout starships and Starfleet installations. His mobility would be greater to a degree than a biological life-form because he could be almost instantaneously transferred almost anywhere within Federation space as long as the right hardware was in place. I think another analogy which would be much closer would be Geordi finding contact lenses while on an away mission which would give him perfect "normal" sight. Starfleet would be completely within their right to appropriate them for reverse engineering. Would you say Geordi should be able to keep them because it improves his quality of life and only another blind man would be able to benefit from them in a world where blindness has become a rarity.

The Harry Kim reference does make a little more sense, but it's flawed in how it applies to the humanity of each. A device that would allow Kim to survive in space would enhance his abilities as a human, as no other human can normally do that. Giving the Doctor the emitter enhances his baseline capabilities as an EMH, yes, but it only brings him up to average in regards to human capability. Since, like Data, he is trying to emulate and perhaps gain a level of equality with humans, the emitter is necessary for him to even attempt to attain this level. If the emitter gave him properties beyond what a human could do, I could swallow your argument. But it doesn't, so that kind of falls through for me. The Geordi case is also similar, though I give you credit in that it has a better point because only other blind men would be able to use it.

Another thing I see brought up by both you and Zombie a lot is the argument that he would not really be restricted, as he could be transferred anywhere in the Federation with a holodeck or a fully holo-capable starship. Yes, this is true, but you forget a lot of key points. One, holodecks are common on current starships, yes, but what about on planets? There are plenty of relatively new colonies or not as technologically advanced cultures absorbed into the Federation that would not have a holodeck on their planet. This automatically means the Doctor cannot go there, severely limiting the amount of the Federation he can go to.
Two, how prevalent are these new ship wide emitters you espouse? Your argument would lead us to believe this is the new standard among Federation ships, but do we have any proof of this? Remember, at the time Prometheus is shown, it was a top-secret prototype. Voyager and the rest of Starfleet probably wouldn't have even heard of it until another couple of years if they hadn't contacted it from the Delta Quadrant. Assuming it takes a few years for it to be released into service, it's a few more years for it to become a commonplace ship. And this is only one class. How much longer does it take for the entire fleet to be outfitted like this?
Three, and most important, outside. Both of you harp on the benefits of him going anywhere with holoemitters. So this means everywhere those are....within a building. Sure, he can go all sorts of places. As long as he doesn't want to walk out the door ever. It's like a much bigger version of being confined to Voyager's sickbay. Suppose he wanted to have a life like the one we saw in "Endgame", where he lived an autonomous life and even had a wife? If he wanted to settle down and live a civilian life, how is he supposed to do this if he can't even go out the front door? Right there, you're kind of robbing him of some of his free will, as now he basically doesn't have a choice but to remain a member of Starfleet forever just so he can stay in their holodecks.

The way the story read to me was Starfleet ordered the emitter to be sent to a research facility for study. The doctor said no, you don't have the right to take it from me. Which they did. Since it wasn't really legally his property to begin with. On Voyager it would've held more water since it was necessary in order to expand certain aspects of his duty as CMO, especially earlier on before emitters were added throughout the ship. Plus Voyager didn't have the resources to properly study and/or attempt to reproduce it.

If Starfleet DOES try to make it about his rights as a hologram they'll lose and look bad since there was no reason to go that route in the first place. If they make it about the emitter itself they'll get it and the Doctor will look silly for trying to make it about something else entirely. This isn't about what we think he would do, it's about what appears to be happening in the storyline. Which by the way, as I forgot to say in my first post has been pretty nice reading. Thanks Cryptic, keep 'em coming. More screenshots would be much appreciated as well. Maybe some Klingon ships? It's been pretty heavily Federation so far.

As for who has command and/or rights over the emitter, I think Janeway would actually have the most. Seeing as how the emitter was found by a ship and crew members under her command, she would have the most authority over it, especially since she and the Doctor (and probably B'Elanna) would be the most familiar with it's workings. This is due to many years of experience with the emitter. As a regularly accessed piece of equipment on a ship she commanded, she would most likely have jurisdiction over it. I don't know how she ranks relative to Paris, as they are both some form of Admiral (I believe they are both Vice Admirals, however, so they would have equal authority by rank), nor how what I previously mentioned would factor into rank, but I would expect it to go to Janeway (assuming she's not dead yet in this timeline. We'll see if they use "Before Dishonor" in the timeline).

As for what appears to be happening vs. what we think he would do, I can't read Kestrel's mind, but I think she knows the Doctor pretty much as well as we do, and more than likely he would argue the same sentiments that myself and Michell are expressing. That's for two reasons: 1, knowing his character, I would expect him to object on these reasons (especially after seeing how he reacted to the holonovel case), and 2, it's the argument that's most likely to work in his favor. Like I've stated already, if this was a simple possession case, he would lose, and probably should lose, based on possession law. So I agree with you and Zombie there. But it's not just about that, so it's not as simple and clear-cut.

[Mr.Scott]

Drama! So much drama!

[JamesSavik]

The Bajorians are asking the Cardies for war criminals and are staffing their starbases with Marquis renegades like Ro Laren?

That dog won't hunt.

[Tuszyni.Pl]

Cześć mam na imie Paweł jestem z Polski i nieza dobrze mówie i pisz epo Angielski moz ejest ktoś z polski i mnie nauczy o co tu chodzi w tej grze .
Pozdrwaim Tuszyni.Pl

[KO_Gilligan]

Cześć mam na imie Paweł jestem z Polski i nieza dobrze mówie i pisz epo Angielski moz ejest ktoś z polski i mnie nauczy o co tu chodzi w tej grze .
Pozdrwaim Tuszyni.Pl

Awesome translation from
http://free-translation.imtranslator.net/

Hi, My name is Paul I'm from Poland and I say good reliability and print epo English moz ejest someone from Poland and teach me what's going on in this game.

Hi Paul ! Maybe someone could pm you a greeting, or meet you in the "ten forward" area of the forums.

Cześć Paul! Może ktoś mógłby pm was pozdrowienie, lub spotkamy się w 'TEN naprzód' obszaru forum.

[Traynor94]

and I would kill to have some new updates today (tomorrow... about an hour) as a birthday present. If I get them... I'll donate a slice of cake to my dogs in your name, and they'll love you for it until the end of time... consider the proposal, it's a pretty good deal.

:cool:

[Doug3575]

Great Story!

[Itsomi]

i'm a bit confused with the cardassian side of things at the moment. as far as i knew, there practicaly was no cardassian govournment after the dominion war. and because of the large pro federation base there, they woudlent need to be so advrsarial any more, especialt since their fleet has been crippled, their home planet devastated over 800 million innocents killed in mere hours, and the obsidian order destroyed.
i wouldent hve though they would be the bad guys any more.

[Cpt.Medo]

Here is a gift to all the star trek fans out there that did not know about this new project. www.startrekofgodsandmen.com This is a low budget movie directed by Tim Russ who also played Tuvok. Considering that it is a low budget movie I found it very good. I don't want to spoil anything but you are going to find a lot of familiar characters in this movie. It is about one hour a thirty minutes long. Like I said, it is a low budget movie but it was done nicely. I am a big Star Trek fan and I have to be honest that I loved it.

Again the website is www.startrekofgodsandmen.com

[capgjt585]

Cpt. Medo: That's great, but don't post it in every single topic to make it known. That's probably spamming. :/

Itsomi: It would take time for the Cardassians to learn to trust the Federation, despite their desperate circumstances. Maybe by the time of the game, the Cardassians would be allies (or perhaps even a member!) of the Federation, but at this point they distrust Federation attempts to assist them, and rightly so considering their past history. Let's see how things play out before jumping to conclusions.

[muttw7]

Thanks Cpt.Medo, I'll definitely have to watch that.

[triddell]

Does it bother anyone else that Ro only spent a year in a penal colony for being a terrorist and then she was immediately made the Chief of security on a Federation run space station? I know it's the Bajoran militia but still it's starfleet run. If Starfleet had a problem with Odo at first I think that they would never hire a former terrorist to run security. So far that's the only "history" that's bothered me. Other than that it's been utterly fascinating. What do you guys think?

[Nador_Ekoor]

organizing timeline together here...

[Endow]

Ro, becoming chief of security is to quick for her actions. I do like the story of the Doctor and the rights of sentient beings born or made.

[rsjerald]

DS9 is a Bajoran station. With Cardassia no longer a real threat there is no real need for Federation presence there so we don't really know how much they run things there anymore. Ro is also likely a hero on Bajor. She left the Federation to fight the Cardassians. One people's terrorist is another's hero.

[STLionhearted]

Exactly when did the Klingon Empire lose Khitomer?! :confused:

[wrthore]

I love these postings ... they are great, lol