Discussion for the creation of mulitple STO economies

[cocoa-jin]

Its been brought up before in some capacity or another, but its a key issue in my mind that requires a dedicated thread to discuss the possibility of implementing multiple economies in STO.

First I want to distinguish the possible economies, and then open up discussion for the modeling, implementation and cross-trade/interaction between each economy.

The core types of economies would be soverign faction(military) and civilian faction(free market).

The following is my proposal and interpretation of how it would work.


***Edit***
Fleets wont be the only source of ships, services or equipment...you can still travel to NPC facilities which would decrease in number and concentration as you venture out from core systems. High value/top tier items maybe "throttled" through these NPC facilities to help control distribution. Maybe by lottery, maybe by taking a number, or just being lucky enough to check in when they were available...of course you cant take it unless you meet the requirments.

Federation

Civilian This would be a free market/private enterprise. It would consist of civilian characters with no military or soveriegn faction equiment, ships, nor would they participate in the sell or distribution of soverign/military goods or resources outside of Faction NPC logistical contracts for the delivery of soveriegn/military goods or resources to other NPC faction and possibly player faction fleet facilities.

These characters would specialize in the sell and trade of luxury and descretionary goods to local, regional, and with good enough relations, inter-faction markets. These goods would be bought and sold to and from NPC and players. The key here is creating enough of simulated existance in game to produce a descretionary/luxury market. So homes/living spaces to decorate, clothing, customizations of civilian ships, civilian upgrades, civilian ship systems, etc.

As mentioned above, civilian merchantmen can take on delivery/logistics contracts for the faction to deliver goods to NPC faction facilities and NPC faction resources bound for player fleet facilities. The participation in such missions provides benefits and improvements to faction viablity and interests within the system/region, etc.

Soveriegn/Military(Starfleet)
Consists of no free market or private enterprise. No profits to be made, only service to the larger faction institution...with perks and reward for that service.

Fleets would hold the means of production, individual captains will be the "consumer". Fleets search out viable locations for outposts/starbases which are the "store fronts" and "factories" for refined/finsihed goods. These locations can be scouted out by fleet personel or given to them by non-fleet personel within the faction. The facilities are then provided by Starfleet for their fleet to manage. The facility has to be guarded during construction until it comes online with basic defenses included.

These fleets would personally provide the security for their own facilities(thats a given) but would also benefit from those same faction players in the vicinity during construction and afterward while operational. These same faction players would make use of the fleet's facilities for services and repairs at no cost to the Starfleet personel and at Starfleet determined prices for Federation personel and slightly higher rates for non-faction personel in good standing.

The fleet will produce, mine and deliver unrefined goods to the starbase and shipyards from their various facilities for the purpose of building ships, equipment, upgrades, etc. They provide these services at no cost to Starfleet personel and provide no goods to any other personel, Federation or not. In return for their service to Starfleet and the Federation, these fleets recieve perks that increase capacity

These services provided to same faction players by the Fleet are paid back in terms of service points used to upgrade facilities or toward the production of new/other facilities to be provided by Starfleet. This provides a ladder/progression in fleet productivity.

The various facilitiy types out be outposts of varying size and capability, eventually leading to Starbases of various size and capability. Minning facilities of varying capacity and productivity. Minning facilities would be terriestrial ore, gas, liquid, deep space gas(nebulas) and ore(asteroid). Refining facilities of varying sized and capabilty in terristerial and orbital styles. Shipyards of varying size, class capablity and capacity for the construction of ships.

For upgrade production they require weapons and shield production facilities, sensory production facilities, warp core production facilities.

The more a fleet provides these services, the more points it recieves, the more points, the better and/or more facilities they can have and the more they can produce, the more they can produce, the more services they can provide, the more points the get, the bigger and better they get.

Other perks would be incresed NPC security in the area. The better security and services could also draw NPCs into the area that can make use of these services. The better the system the more NPC draw, the more service points. In addition, there could be an increase in local NPC population(and maybe player residence also) increasing the demand for luxury/descretionary goods to draw in more civilian players buying and selling goods to player and NPC buyers, all making use of the fleet's services...who gets more points toward expansion.

All this expansion requires Starfleet delivery of various goods and resources as they construct your new facility, all that stuff cant get to the fleet without delivery. This gives civilian merchantmen faction NPC contracts to deliver these goods. These many, many deliveries provides a few days of work for many who have to deal with the dangers of space from opposing player and NPCs along the way. Meaning they will frequently require the services of the very fleet they are delivering too(more services points).

The facility requires a certain amount of resources before completion(succesful deliveries) so it also benefits the fleet and others to defend these deliveries to expedite the facilities completion...once again likly requiring some services at the fleet's facility.

Question...can the delivery of these resources be stolen/hijacked by the deliverer? Perhaps, Im open to it...but it would come with heavy consequences. It would only be raw goods/resources...no complete systems, or weapons or anything.

ok, digest that...the next post will be Klingons

[cocoa-jin]

Klingons
The Klingons are a bit harder for me to totally flesh out(but i wont let that stop me from writing another long post)

The difficulty is in trying to construct a feudal like system based economy, one that is war machine oriented with fewer luxury items(or at least driven by a different set of "luxury/descretionary" goods)

Im thinking that each fleet would be part of a house and not the house itself(that'll be too many houses). Each fleet chooses a house affliation for whom to operate under. Perhaps each house "manages" regions/portions of the Empire, with lots of overlap. Fleets set-up in these region/portions and attempt to expand out as much as possible within this region. This harbors a healthy competition between houses in the overlapping areas.

Civilians
This will be a tough caste to exist in. They'd be buying and selling goods to and from NPCs and players. the question is what will these goods be? Ceremonial armor, blades, I dont know yet...I'll keep thinking about it. Production lies in the hands of the houses, maybe civilians will be door to door sells men for the houses. They pick up goods and move them through NPC and player markets for a cut of the profits as house credits. These use these credits for services, upgrades and acquistion of civilian equipment and vessels through house facilities, or at a slightly higher cost at other houses or non-house Imperial facilities.

They'd also provide contract logistics for the house(s) and Empire.

Civilians mainly make use of civilian vessel and equipment, but may recieve low tier military equipment and in the most extreme cases gutted low teir military vessels as gifts for service to the House or Emperor. Civilian vessels will of course be limited in their capacity to make use of military equipment in type and quantity.

House/Soveriegn Faction
Houses manage, fund(at least part) and equip there respective regional houses/militias in service of the House and Empire.

Player Fleets within the house once again set-up facilities for the production of Imperial military goods and services. All services and equipment are provided in House(note, not in fleet) at no cost. All services are provided to other Houses at some reasonable and inexpensive fixed cost in Imperial credits/prestege/points(acquired for all service in the interest of the Empire and acquired at a lesser rate for House specific/oriented objectives). All equipment will be provided to other Houses at Imperial credit/prestege/points at a less than desirable, yet fixed costs.

Houses once again reward service to the House through perks...better facilities NPC security presence in the system, more placment of civilian production facilities, thuse civilian populations in the area. The greater the fleet becomes in service the military might of the region, the more assets the House moves in the thriving system. This allows these fleet facilities to be major centers and hubs of the House and Empire. Fleets can take deserted systems and in time make them bustling centers of production, residency, high valued strategically, etc. The system litarlly and physically becomes a monument to the Strategic prowess of the system and the Fleet(s) that made it so.

[cocoa-jin]

Black Market

Goods legally limited to military service, or illegal goods including but not limited to other faction military goods, contra-band, slaves, treaty banned weapons, stolen goods, etc as appropriate to the region/faction territory.

So the very, very rare salavge of operational or near-operational systems and sell of these goods(instead of turning it in or alerting NPC officials for authorized recovery). Or the unauthorized sell of gifted Klingon weapons and vessels. Transportation, smuggling and distribution of contra-band(like Romulan Ale in Federation space)

The salvaging of goods will be a civilian function only, members of faction militaries can only alert commnad/or their House of its location for authorized retrieval for a credit/prestege reward as appropriate. Civilians can only salavage at the risk of being caught carrying contra-band...its safer to report it to faction authorities for credit/prestege as appropriate. All salvagable systems self-destruct after a period of time(short life spans in the hazards of space).

Who would purchase such goods? Less than desirable NPCs of various criminal organizations, fencers, pirates, sub-factions, etc, etc. Maybe even rouge military faction players who are no longer able to acquire services and equipment from their ex-faction....or any other Soveriegn faction.

[Tiberius0311]

Well klingon luxury items could be for hunting, historical items, and stories of history in written form....there is a lot of luxury items you can get looking at Worf's quarters.

[cocoa-jin]

Well klingon luxury items could be for hunting, historical items, and stories of history in written form....there is a lot of luxury items you can get looking at Worf's quarters.

Very true! Give us more.

[helldiver]

I will not ever again play a game where my character's needed equipment can only be obtained from other players.

That's a hard lesson developers are learning. Lets look at Lineage 2 (roughly a population of 800,000 players).

For many years the only way for you to obtain B, A, or S grade items, was from other players in little shops scattered around cities. That means that you would either have to fork over a large amount of in game cash, or you were forced to create another character that could put together the item.

But wait, it gets more interesting: The developer made the drop rate for the needed components to craft the C, B, A, and S grade armors so rare (about a 0.1% chance) that the price for said armor grades became exponentially high. A dwarf could charge over 25 to 40 million for a set of Armor normally valued at less than 10 million adena(gold).

Most players didn't want to go through that. So what did they do? They looked to Gold Farming 3rd party websites to simply buy the gold they needed (with real life cash) and would then go back in-game and purchase their needed armor. The effect was that inflation began to rise as the amount of money in circulation increased dramatically. So a set of armor valued at 10 million, was now seen at around 50 million.

But both Players and the Developer failed to see that the casual demographic was being ignored by this system. That's something that "Open player economies" do not address, and it's an issue of time.

To certain players a certain amount of time is worth a completely different amount than for another player. For example, if I spend 2 hours in game I want my two hours to be equal to someone else that spends 8 hours per game session. Now obviously that is unrealistic. As we all know the player that spends more time in game is obviously going to accrue more wealth and advance at a higher pace. So what does your average gamer do that can't spend 8 hours in game? He purchases the needed wealth outside the game through 3rd party websites. Now he can come back in (perhaps not at the same level) but can at least participate on par with the player that spent 8 hours.

And -that- is the problem with player run economies that are linked with player progression.

In the above lineage 2 example, once you reach level 52 you're gonna want B grade armor so that you can have an easier time getting to level 61 (when you're gonna want A grade armor so you can continue into the 70's).

In a game like World of Warcraft I wouldn't need to rely on players in order to get the level 52 armor I need to get to level 61, or the level 61 armor I need to get into the 70s. Why? because I can obtain them through random drops, through quests, through battlegrounds, or through careful Auction house bidding (as a last resort). In this example, players have been "removed" from the progression equation. Same can be said for Everquest and other games of similar caliber.

You end up with a problem when you (the player) must rely on another player in order to get the equipment you need to progress through the game.

Lets take a look at Pirates of the Burning Sea:
A casual player can buy Civilian ships, such ships have lower statistics and capabilities when compared to their standard types. There is no way to obtain a ship through a mission, or through random drops (one can argue that the Pirate classes can but that's beside the point). Once you get to level 12 you'll need a Von Hoom class ship in order to continue progressing into the 20's (no neccesarily a Von Hoom but a ship of similar caliber). The only way to obtain such a ship is to purchase it at the Auction broker.

The price of said ship is way beyond what a character of that level would have in his pocket. That means he'll have to grind missions on the side in order to have enough for said ship. The other problem? That level 12 player better hope that there is a level 12 ship in the Auction house because more than likely players making ships are probably making high end "end-game" ships instead of producing for the lower level economy. End-game ships yield substantially more profit than starter ships.

Ok so some on here may think, "well we're doing fine so far, whats the problem?". But then we continue into the 30's and then the 40's and finally the 50's. The level 50's ships are so rare and difficult to obtain, that you -have- to join a Society (their equivalent of Fleets). You have to grind out production for the needed components to build the high end 3rd, 2nd, and 1st rate ships. Ships in that capacity can take aproximately a month or more to construct do to production facility labor rates.

The first effect you see out of the above is a large cavity of players in the lower level ranges. You end up with a large high level community and absolutely no "Casual" player base. That is something Flying Lab is currently experiencing and for what ever reason they just cannot admit that their economy is part of the problem. They have even gone on their forums asking player suggestions on improving some of their systems.

Lineage 2 has felt the brunt of the issue as well. They have begun making changes to alleviate the issue and have begun placing equipment in NPC run stores. They have also instituted WoW systems (such as town-rest bonus experience). They have yet to place an auction house in their game.

Then we enter the subject of PvP and everything stated above gets worse. In Pirates of the Burning sea a growing concern is that players are afraid of bringing out the end-game ships because they're afraid to lose them in PvP. In Lineage 2 they never realized the population they could have because quite frankly no one wants to lose an A grade weapon or armor to a pvp fight when said weapon/armor took months upon months of labor and in game time grinding materials or money to obtain.

In Summary:
-The player run Economy should be a support and enhancement economy only (see WoW or Everquest 2)
-Player advancement and key equipment should not be in the hands of other players (i.e. Ship hulls, key weapons, key equipment).
-To curtail inflation and 3rd party intrusion, drop rates of key player advancement equipment (i.e. ship hulls, key weapons, key equipment) should not be lowered as a method to making "ship classes rare".

Finally as a side rant:
I hope the developer knows about the Jedi syndrome. You know? The one where everyone says how rare that peice of equipment, weapon, ship, etc is that you don't see very many in the galaxy? Problem is because of its rarity, everyone and their mother is going to want one, is going to have it, and in the end the game suffers because of it.

I don't want to see Galaxy class or larger ships end up with the Jedi syndrome. I notice some board visitors come on here (particularly from Eve) going on about how the big ships should only be in the hands of Fleets(guilds) capable of producing them. That's nonsense. Just like the developer is adamant about Multi-crewed ships, he should be just as equally adamant about relagating such ship classes to Fleets capable of producing them. It's the same issue as Multi-Crew just from a different perspective. I.e. I'll have to depend on my Fleet leaders as well as put up with them to eventually maybe get a chance to obtain one of the End-Game ships. It's the same issue with a different face.

[cocoa-jin]

I will not ever again play a game where my character's needed equipment can only be obtained from other players.

That's a hard lesson developers are learning. Lets look at Lineage 2 (roughly a population of 800,000 players).

For many years the only way for you to obtain B, A, or S grade items, was from other players in little shops scattered around cities. That means that you would either have to fork over a large amount of in game cash, or you were forced to create another character that could put together the item.

But wait, it gets more interesting: The developer made the drop rate for the needed components to craft the C, B, A, and S grade armors so rare (about a 0.1% chance) that the price for said armor grades became exponentially high. A dwarf could charge over 25 to 40 million for a set of Armor normally valued at less than 10 million adena(gold).

Most players didn't want to go through that. So what did they do? They looked to Gold Farming 3rd party websites to simply buy the gold they needed (with real life cash) and would then go back in-game and purchase their needed armor. The effect was that inflation began to rise as the amount of money in circulation increased dramatically. So a set of armor valued at 10 million, was now seen at around 50 million.

But both Players and the Developer failed to see that the casual demographic was being ignored by this system. That's something that "Open player economies" do not address, and it's an issue of time.

To certain players a certain amount of time is worth a completely different amount than for another player. For example, if I spend 2 hours in game I want my two hours to be equal to someone else that spends 8 hours per game session. Now obviously that is unrealistic. As we all know the player that spends more time in game is obviously going to accrue more wealth and advance at a higher pace. So what does your average gamer do that can't spend 8 hours in game? He purchases the needed wealth outside the game through 3rd party websites. Now he can come back in (perhaps not at the same level) but can at least participate on par with the player that spent 8 hours.

And -that- is the problem with player run economies that are linked with player progression.

In the above lineage 2 example, once you reach level 52 you're gonna want B grade armor so that you can have an easier time getting to level 61 (when you're gonna want A grade armor so you can continue into the 70's).

In a game like World of Warcraft I wouldn't need to rely on players in order to get the level 52 armor I need to get to level 61, or the level 61 armor I need to get into the 70s. Why? because I can obtain them through random drops, through quests, through battlegrounds, or through careful Auction house bidding (as a last resort). In this example, players have been "removed" from the progression equation. Same can be said for Everquest and other games of similar caliber.

You end up with a problem when you (the player) must rely on another player in order to get the equipment you need to progress through the game.

Lets take a look at Pirates of the Burning Sea:
A casual player can buy Civilian ships, such ships have lower statistics and capabilities when compared to their standard types. There is no way to obtain a ship through a mission, or through random drops (one can argue that the Pirate classes can but that's beside the point). Once you get to level 12 you'll need a Von Hoom class ship in order to continue progressing into the 20's (no neccesarily a Von Hoom but a ship of similar caliber). The only way to obtain such a ship is to purchase it at the Auction broker.

The price of said ship is way beyond what a character of that level would have in his pocket. That means he'll have to grind missions on the side in order to have enough for said ship. The other problem? That level 12 player better hope that there is a level 12 ship in the Auction house because more than likely players making ships are probably making high end "end-game" ships instead of producing for the lower level economy. End-game ships yield substantially more profit than starter ships.

Ok so some on here may think, "well we're doing fine so far, whats the problem?". But then we continue into the 30's and then the 40's and finally the 50's. The level 50's ships are so rare and difficult to obtain, that you -have- to join a Society (their equivalent of Fleets). You have to grind out production for the needed components to build the high end 3rd, 2nd, and 1st rate ships. Ships in that capacity can take aproximately a month or more to construct do to production facility labor rates.

The first effect you see out of the above is a large cavity of players in the lower level ranges. You end up with a large high level community and absolutely no "Casual" player base. That is something Flying Lab is currently experiencing and for what ever reason they just cannot admit that their economy is part of the problem. They have even gone on their forums asking player suggestions on improving some of their systems.

Lineage 2 has felt the brunt of the issue as well. They have begun making changes to alleviate the issue and have begun placing equipment in NPC run stores. They have also instituted WoW systems (such as town-rest bonus experience). They have yet to place an auction house in their game.

Then we enter the subject of PvP and everything stated above gets worse. In Pirates of the Burning sea a growing concern is that players are afraid of bringing out the end-game ships because they're afraid to lose them in PvP. In Lineage 2 they never realized the population they could have because quite frankly no one wants to lose an A grade weapon or armor to a pvp fight when said weapon/armor took months upon months of labor and in game time grinding materials or money to obtain.

In Summary:
-The player run Economy should be a support and enhancement economy only (see WoW or Everquest 2)
-Player advancement and key equipment should not be in the hands of other players (i.e. Ship hulls, key weapons, key equipment).
-To curtail inflation and 3rd party intrusion, drop rates of key player advancement equipment (i.e. ship hulls, key weapons, key equipment) should not be lowered as a method to making "ship classes rare".

Finally as a side rant:
I hope the developer knows about the Jedi syndrome. You know? The one where everyone says how rare that peice of equipment, weapon, ship, etc is that you don't see very many in the galaxy? Problem is because of its rarity, everyone and their mother is going to want one, is going to have it, and in the end the game suffers because of it.

I don't want to see Galaxy class or larger ships end up with the Jedi syndrome. I notice some board visitors come on here (particularly from Eve) going on about how the big ships should only be in the hands of Fleets(guilds) capable of producing them. That's nonsense. Just like the developer is adamant about Multi-crewed ships, he should be just as equally adamant about relagating such ship classes to Fleets capable of producing them. It's the same issue as Multi-Crew just from a different perspective. I.e. I'll have to depend on my Fleet leaders as well as put up with them to eventually maybe get a chance to obtain one of the End-Game ships. It's the same issue with a different face.

Was this in response to the origianl post? Because I think I've addressed many of your concerns in the post...for which you've made no direct comment. How do you see such an idea working, what did I miss that you would like to see?

There is no tangiable cash, services and equipment are generally at no cost in my proposal, you cant farm or trade prestege if its locked to the character and "disappears after its use. And if you cant trade or sell ships, equipment or upgrades, and possibly cant horde or store extra ships or equipment, then once again, there is nothing to trade or farm.

[helldiver]

Was this in response to the origianl post? Or just a rant? Because I think I've addressed many of your concerns in the post...for which you've made no comment.

No no, your suggestions are always good (same as in the other post). I agree with them. But I also wanted to bring to light an issue that is brought up by some forum visitors as well as something I've not seen addressed by the developer.

Then again we don't know how involved players will be with ship production.

My only thing on your suggestion is what are the perks for a Fleet(guild) if they run such a service station? You said they'd get bigger and better but I still don't see what's in it for them.

I mean they're getting factional points etc, so what's the perk for them? They use the points to expand the station and provide other services, but I mean, is that it?

[TruthSeer]

Wouldn't the Federation be against buying technology off of the black market?

[cocoa-jin]

No no, your suggestions are always good (same as in the other post). I agree with them. But I also wanted to bring to light an issue that is brought up by some forum visitors as well as something I've not seen addressed by the developer.

Then again we don't know how involved players will be with ship production.

My only thing on your suggestion is what are the perks for a Fleet(guild) if they run such a service station? You said they'd get bigger and better but I still don't see what's in it for them.

I mean they're getting factional points etc, so what's the perk for them? They use the points to expand the station and provide other services, but I mean, is that it?

Before I answer I want to apologize for my response being a bit blunt, I edited by response in an attempt to be a bit more level headed in my post.

What is in it for the Fleet? First off they have first "dibs" on vessels because they made them. Second, whats init for producers in other games? Once you get rich, how much richer do you need to get it? Are you in it just to see your wallet increase, or are you looking to use that money for the next best thing? if its the next best thing, then no worries, you'll have access to it in ships and facilities as you expand. But now there is more than just that...you create a physical monument to your success. You get bigger and better facilities to place, you get to see a system come alive under your expert direction.

Not enough? Maybe you get to plaster your fleet icon all over everything, maybe you get to see your fleet ranked and recieve faction recognition, maybe the distribution of new blueprints for upgrades, new production vessels and such are distributed to them first over a course of a couple of weeks. Maybe high ranking Fleet Shipyards can enter a lottery to have certain prototype vessels be built over the course of a few weeks in their shipyard with a public ceremony to watch it roll out under NPC control for its shake down trials before commissioning...then that Fleet shipyard gets the first set of blueprints for production.

Maybe the fleet can get special missions or mini-campaigns as content toward the development of new technologies, materials, techniques for the increased production, or prerequistes for new protype technologies and upgrades for production.

I can probably come up with this stuff all day.

[helldiver]

Bingo found it:

Refining facilities of varying sized and capabilty in terristerial and orbital styles. Shipyards of varying size, class capablity and capacity for the construction of ships.

For upgrade production they require weapons and shield production facilities, sensory production facilities, warp core production facilities.

The more a fleet provides these services, the more points it recieves, the more points, the better and/or more facilities they can have and the more they can produce, the more they can produce, the more services they can provide, the more points the get, the bigger and better they get.

That line I believe sparked my post. It's not a rant against you or your suggestion. It's simply a caution against any system whereby I have to go to a Fleet or I have to join a fleet in order to get the ship I need at a point in time in the progression of my character.

First I'll simplify your post so that I can make sure I have it clear (and feel free to correct).

Your suggestion states the following:
-A Fleet (Guild) is put together by a group of Players (after all a Guild is a group of players).
-This Guild lead by a player with subordinate officers whom are all players, elect subordinate players (or themselves) to do tasks such as Resource gathering, Item production, processing etc.
-This group of players then use said collected resources to build a facility. The facility they construct can then sell items to other players. The items sold are produced by the facility (through the gathering of constituent resources by the members of said Guild).
-Based on the volume of sales by said facility (operated by a group of players) the NPC Starfleet awards special points which said Facility can then redeem for additional amenities. Such amenities include: additional production facilities (shipyards, engine manufacturing plants, etc).

So my questions to you are:
-Do I as a player have to buy the higher End ships from said Facility? Is there an NPC (Starfleet) I can purchase the same ship from?
-Does said Facility produce any item that is critical to my success as a Player? For example: My Away team needs special Rifles. Is the only way to obtain said Rifles to purchase them from that player run facility? Can I obtain said Rifles through a Quest reward, Random drops, or through an equally competitive NPC Shop?

Some more advanced questions:
-How is the Fleet facility idea (under Sovereign) any different from the Multi-Crewing PC dilenma the Developer is currently not going to persue?
What I mean by that is: Say you're running a Fleet(guild). I'm a member of the fleet but I have to spend some of my in-game time running a Resource collector because the Fleet needs more Iron. I have to build a "Warp Engine IIV" factory with my funds because that's what the Fleet needs. Essentially it's the same PC Crew paradox but with a different face. Catch my drift?

I'm not trying to be hostile towards your ideas I just want to get a clear picture. I mean, if there isn't something critical that the facility produces then what is the purpose (aside from alternate gameplay which is also good as well as Roleplay) for a Fleet(guild) to invest their ingame time and efforts in putting together such a facility?

In games I've seen that follow a similar model, usually the products of the guild were essential to character development. To the point where some guilds would actually form up with the sole intention of just being producers/merchantmen. Players that weren't producers/merchantmen had to go to the producers/merchantmen in order to procure the items they needed in order to progress through the game content.

Unless your suggestion differs in that purchaseing from such organizations is an option perhaps a convinience option over obtaining such needed items equally through Quests, Random loot drops, etc.

[Edit] Ok you answered my concerns with these two coments:
What is in it for the Fleet? First off they have first "dibs" on vessels because they made them. Second, whats init for producers in other games? Once you get rich, how much richer do you need to get it? Are you in it just to see your wallet increase, or are you looking to use that money for the next best thing? if its the next best thing, then no worries, you'll have access to it in ships and facilities as you expand. But now there is more than just that...you create a physical monument to your success. You get bigger and better facilities to place, you get to see a system come alive under your expert direction.

Not enough? Maybe you get to plaster your fleet icon all over everything, maybe you get to see your fleet ranked and recieve faction recognition, maybe the distribution of new blueprints for upgrades, new production vessels and such are distributed to them first over a course of a couple of weeks. Maybe high ranking Fleet Shipyards can enter a lottery to have certain prototype vessels be built over the course of a few weeks in their shipyard with a public ceremony to watch it roll out under NPC control for its shake down trials before commissioning...then that Fleet shipyard gets the first set of blueprints for production.

I'm ok with a Fleet getting first dibs on a new ship type, heck I'm ok if they're the only ones that can have it for a few weeks. Sounds good to me. It's a convinience of being in a Fleet and a perk to being in a Fleet. It's a very very good solution to a nasty monster.:)

[cocoa-jin]

Wouldn't the Federation be against buying technology off of the black market?

Yes...and they wouldnt. They would like to prevent their technologies from getting on the black market though. So thats why they provide credits/prestege to those who provide them info on the location of such faction items so they can get them.

Other contra-band or dangerous goods/items would be gathered has hazardous materials under the goal of public safety or confiscated under security/law enforcement.

Its no different than what any other federal/military/state/county/city would implement for such goods

If my post suggested they would its a typo.

[TruthSeer]

Before I answer I want to apologize for my response being a bit blunt, I edited by response in an attempt to be a bit more level headed in my post.

What is in it for the Fleet? First off they have first "dibs" on vessels because they made them. Second, whats init for producers in other games? Once you get rich, how much richer do you need to get it? Are you in it just to see your wallet increase, or are you looking to use that money for the next best thing? if its the next best thing, then no worries, you'll have access to it in ships and facilities as you expand. But now there is more than just that...you create a physical monument to your success. You get bigger and better facilities to place, you get to see a system come alive under your expert direction.

Not enough? Maybe you get to plaster your fleet icon all over everything, maybe you get to see your fleet ranked and recieve faction recognition, maybe the distribution of new blueprints for upgrades, new production vessels and such are distributed to them first over a course of a couple of weeks. Maybe high ranking Fleet Shipyards can enter a lottery to have certain prototype vessels be built over the course of a few weeks in their shipyard with a public ceremony to watch it roll out under NPC control for its shake down trials before commissioning...then that Fleet shipyard gets the first set of blueprints for production.

Maybe the fleet can get special missions or mini-campaigns as content toward the development of new technologies, materials, techniques for the increased production, or prerequistes for new protype technologies and upgrades for production.

I can probably come up with this stuff all day.

Not only that but fleets should be able to produce ships faster than NPC shops. And also maybe when comparing ship yard size, Fleet yards would have more production facilities than that of a NPC yard equal to its level.

[Elvyne]

It would be more wise to have 1 or 2 economies within the game, based on fractions. Having multiple ones, only adds to chaos.

If you alone, would have different economies within the federation, then your looking at over 200 different economies. Having a third, being military would be doable, but more as a free trade economy, or neutral.

[helldiver]

My only issue with Contraband or Black Market goods is that I've never really see them "work". They are a cool feature (see Star Wars Galaxies) but they essentially become just another resource.

In order for Contraband to really spark controversy it has to be resources or items that have a significant impact in the game.

For example: Reverse Engineered Weapons that have been rigged could be flagged as contraband. They perhaps have a higher rate of fire, perhaps they do more damage than an equally "legal" weapon. Such weapons would be common among a particular faction, but Federation ships could perhaps take some form of negative factional hit if caught with them aboard. Perhaps a scan is initiated when entering a system that is patrolled by the Federation.

Or like someone mentioned, weapons and equipment belonging to oposing factions could be flagged as Black Market as soon as they are obtained.

Another example of contraband are taxed goods. Perhaps with the facilities suggestion, Starfleet applies a tax on all items sold. You could smuggle said items and avoid the tax altogether and set up a fence to sell the items. But this might be a bit too involved.

[cocoa-jin]

Your suggestion states the following:
-A Fleet (Guild) put together a group of Players (after all a Guild is a group of players).
-This Guild lead by a player with subordinate officers whom are all players, elect subordinate players (or themselves) to do tasks such as Resource gathering, Item production, processing etc.
-This group of players then use said collected resources to build a facility. The facility they construct can then sell items to other players. The items sold are produced by the facility (through the gathering of constituent resources by the members of said Guild).
-Based on the volume of sales by said facility (operated by a group of players) the NPC Starfleet awards special points which said Facility can then redeem for additional amenities. Such amenities include: additional production facilities (shipyards, engine manufacturing plants, etc).

The fleet doesnt build the facility directly...it chooses the location and facility type based on whats available to them. Starfleet sends the resources through NPC deliveries and player mission deliveries(which speed up the delivery process for the facility) The facility is then built at the location by NPCs over a period of time.

No, items and services are not sold to Starfleet, all items and services are at no cost to them...services are at no to little cost to non-Starfleet(no items are sold to non-Starfleet, because they only provide Starfleet items to Starfleet memebers...no civilians).

The Fleet is rewarded for services rendered through perks and such.

So my questions to you are:
-Do I as a player have to buy the higher End ships from said Facility? Is there an NPC (Starfleet) I can purchase the same ship from?
-Does said Facility produce any item that is critical to my success as a Player? For example: My Away team needs special Rifles. Is the only way to obtain said Rifles is to purchase them from that player run facility? Can I obtain said Rifles through a Quest reward, Random drops, or through an equally competitive NPC Shop?

Yes, you can recieve these same goods and services from NPC Starfleet faciIities...I added an edit to my first post regarding this. The assumption is that NPC facilities will be harder and harder to find the farther you travel from core systems. Also propose that high end items be "throttled" in NPC facilities to encourage, but not require, the patronage of Fleet facilities.

I dont see the need for any specialty item required for any specific quest or advancment. Either you got what it takes or you dont. Ships, weapons and upgrades just assist you in your goal. No special rifles needed...standard rifles can be modified for the specific mission, shields can be adjusted, torpedos can be "over-clocked", ships can be commanded better.
But no, if there was anything required specifcally for a mission it should be provided by the mission giver.


So more advanced questions:
-How is the Fleet facility idea (under Sovereign) any different from the Multi-Crewing PC dilenma the Developer is currently not going to persue?
What I mean by that is: Say you're running a Fleet(guild). I'm a member of the fleet but I have to spend some of my in game time running a Resource collector because the Fleet needs more Iron. I have to build a "Warp Engine IIV" factory with my funds because that's what the Fleet needs. Essentially it's the same PC Crew paradox but with a different face. Catch my drift?

Fleets require effort to work...the bigger there operations, the more work and responibilty is required to run them well.
Ideally resources and production will be in the same place so logistics wouldnt be an issue, but sometimes production is supported by several resources locations...so yes, the fleet will need to set-up somemeans of moving these resurces from place to place effeicently and securly(because of hostile players and NPCs in some locations).
I'd support NPC logistics, its assumed all these facilities have labor forces, so why not have "in-house" logistics between locations, civilian player contracted logistics for fleet credits, etc. Then the fleet just needs to run security along its logistic lanes and resource systems. Theft of these resources through hijacking by the civilian contractors could open them up to faction PvP for a period of time(regardless of the number of times killed), reduced faction standing, exclusion from faction contracts, increased costs for services until repaid, and any combination of the above, etc.


In games I've seen that follow a similar model, usually the products of the guild were essential to character development. To the point where some guilds would actually form up with the sole intention of just being producers/merchantmen. Players that weren't producers/merchantmen had to go to the producers/merchantmen in order to procure the items they needed in order to progress through the game content.
:)


There is nothing you can get from fleets that you cant get from NPC facilities...its the convience and possibly selection and availablity that can encourage the use of Fleet facilities.

[cocoa-jin]

It would be more wise to have 1 or 2 economies within the game, based on fractions. Having multiple ones, only adds to chaos.

If you alone, would have different economies within the federation, then your looking at over 200 different economies. Having a third, being military would be doable, but more as a free trade economy, or neutral.

Its only two economies in each faction. Civilian and Soveriegn.

First, the Federation consists of a not for/non-profit Soveriegn economy for Starfleet goods and services for Starfleet memebers and services for faction and non-faction players with good standing.

Second, the federation consists of a civilian free/open market for non-Starfleet goods...basically luxuary/descretionary goods. Not an economy for each race, one faction wide economy(like the Eurpean Union)

The Klingons Sovedriegn economy follow the same models with different credits/prestege for each House and the over all Empire accumalted at the same time. You only acquire House credits/prestege for House service/mission/interests, but you always earn Empire credits in addition, regardless how provided the mission or the interests it promotes(assuming there are no rebel factions or missions). House credits are only useable at the appropriate House facility, Empire credits can be used anywhere, but usually have less "buying power" per unit at the individual houses...because Houses honor those who are part of and deeds done on their behalf over all others.

So thats 4 economies right there....only two for profit.

Lastly there would be a black market that makes use of bartering and universal currencies/commodities like dilithium, latnium, and other universally valuble items for hard and rare to find basic items. So no uber items, just items hard to get outside the closed Soveriegn economies...like the occasional photon torpedo launcher, or phaser rifle, or shield emitter, or hand held disruptor, or low tier klingon warship, etc.

So thats five.

[cocoa-jin]

Not only that but fleets should be able to produce ships faster than NPC shops. And also maybe when comparing ship yard size, Fleet yards would have more production facilities than that of a NPC yard equal to its level.

Thats a possibility, once again, to encourage fleet facility usage...but wont require it.

[cocoa-jin]

My only issue with Contraband or Black Market goods is that I've never really see them "work". They are a cool feature (see Star Wars Galaxies) but they essentially become just another resource.

In order for Contraband to really spark controversy it has to be resources or items that have a significant impact in the game.

For example: Reverse Engineered Weapons that have been rigged could be flagged as contraband. They perhaps have a higher rate of fire, perhaps they do more damage than an equally "legal" weapon. Such weapons would be common among a particular faction, but Federation ships could perhaps take some form of negative factional hit if caught with them aboard. Perhaps a scan is initiated when entering a system that is patrolled by the Federation.

Or like someone mentioned, weapons and equipment belonging to oposing factions could be flagged as Black Market as soon as they are obtained.

Though I dont see Starfleet ships engaging such behavior(maybe some Klingon) because they get upgrades and tweak and modify systems all the time(at least temporarily as the situtation dictates), I can see some civilians, especially less than desirable civlians making use of illegal systems, upgardes/modifications through black market sources.
This can be done by generally well intentioned civiliians looking for more protection as they venture into less than secure areas, or by ill-intented less than desirable civilians who operate in the shadows...once again looking for more protection or more smack down ability.

Either way, these type of infractions should not go un-noticed except in non-faction and possibly faction fringe systems.

Also, we can ignore the profit draw for civilians who can profit significantly by just selling such items to Black Market NPCs...even if it was just a sink hole for which the item never re-appeared from.

The NPC black market can also be its on less well supplied, fewer "store fronts" and harder to find "sub-faction" to supply at at high cost, non-faction ships(generally, except the occasional low tier Klingon warship...no soveriegn faction competitive ships), services, resources and items to rogue/disenfranshised soveriegn faction captains and those civilians brave enough to try and make use of illegal items. It could have its own sets of missions and such to acquire prestege through.

Another example of contraband are taxed goods. Perhaps with the facilities suggestion, Starfleet applies a tax on all items sold. You could smuggle said items and avoid the tax altogether and set up a fence to sell the items. But this might be a bit too involved.


The avoidance of taxes is certainly a worthwhile dynamic. It feeds on the player's desire to maximize profit. It creates the thin and tempting line between legitamite merchant and smuggler/criminal without it requiring the need to engage in such dirty and distastful acts, nor mingle with such groups they attract, as moving contra-band and illegal substances.

[Trekkie]

I actually like a lot of the ideas presented in the initial post, and the concept of having a "black market" is especially intriguing since a lot of interesting items could be sold there that might not be available through other venues. Unfortunately, I think that having such a complex system might intimidate new players, and since the developers are trying to make the game as accessible as possible I doubt that the economy will have as many layers as what you have described. Still, interesting post!

[cocoa-jin]

I actually like a lot of the ideas presented in the initial post, and the concept of having a "black market" is especially intriguing since a lot of interesting items could be sold there that might not be available through other venues. Unfortunately, I think that having such a complex system might intimidate new players, and since the developers are trying to make the game as accessible as possible I doubt that the economy will have as many layers as what you have described. Still, interesting post!

I can understand the concern regarding complexity, but consider this...faction play means you really only need to know one economy, you can learn others as necessary, which will mostly be a concer for civilian merchants.

civilianSee, a Federation civilian merchant wont be able to know much about the Starfleet "economy" because he cant produce or sell anything in it, his only interaction is as a consumer of services for which he payes little or nothing...or as a contracted delivery man, for which he simply recieves compensation in terms of credit for delivering goods from A to B under essentially a faction quest/mission

Other than that, they buy and sell goods from here to there within the faction...simple commodities trading. Most civilians wont need or dare to trade outside of their faction because of hostilities...though I assume non-hostile factions will be included, if so,then its just commodities trading again.

SoverignA Starfleet captain just runs missions and re-supplies and such at available faction facilities...simple. What non-faction player will you buy from?...it wont be Klingons. So Soveriegn memebers need to operate outside of faction facilities, and in the rare instances you need repair services outside of faction space, but within non-hostile other faction space(non-Klingon space), then you recieve repairs service through inter-faction arrangement/agreement. You wouldnt be able to get anything other than basic repairs at a non-faction facility ran by another faction(of course non-Klingon) and these services could only be rendered by NPCs within this other faction anyway....so your only inter-faction interaction is a basic request for repairs at no cost to you...simple.

Fleets find resources and use them to produce goods at facilities...simple. The resources can be easily simplified into basic construction/production credits so the fleet need only mine as much of whatever resource available deemed production essential. The credits can be used to simulate the ability to trade within faction fleets for particular resources needed to produce a particular item.

So even if all a fleet mines is one item, it can be assumed thay can easily trade their abudant resource with other fleets who have abudance of other resources so that they pull from a general Starfleet resource pool to produce. This would justify the frequent Starfleet logistic missions between same fleet and/or same faction fleet facilities. It will also justify NPC logistics lanes between these facilities for players to defend for additional prestege points.

With 5 economies, most will need to only know one(soverign players), some will find a benefit in knowing two(both within faction for civilian), few will need to know three or four(both same faction economies and possibly oppossing faction civilian and/or black market for high risk and less than legitimate trades)

Worrying to big about all the economies isnt necessary, just focus on your own and you'll be fine....just like most entrepenuers dont worry themselves about foreign economies and government contracts unless its their niche.

[helldiver]

It doesn't have to be complicated.

You have two Phasers:

Phaser Bank Mk IIV
Power Consumption: 22 Damage: 220
Recharge: 0.55 Range: 635

Then you have the contraband one:
*Phaser Bank Mk IIV*
Power Consumption: 20 Damage: 280
Recharge: 0.50 Range: 635

Contraband would be marked Red and would have asterisks on the name. When entering a system that is patrolled you'd get a penalty of some sort:
-Perhaps you lose Faction points.
-Perhaps you're flagged and are now attacked by the faction controlling the system you entered.
-Perhaps you now have to do a special quest to confront the contraband issue.

It gives some more avenues to gameplay.

And how did that Phaser Bank Mk. IIV get flagged like that? Perhaps reverse engineering or some type of ability could be part of the character development. This would allow some players to actually be the ones that enhance weapons this way. Perhaps some Fleets could specialize in this sort of stuff.

A normal "legal" enhanced weapon might look like this:
following the above example:

Phaser Bank Mk IIV
Power Consumption: 24 Damage: 245
Recharge: 0.65 Range: 635

The same goes for obtaining a weapon of an oposing faction. Perhaps when we destroy oposing faction ships we might be able to "sift through the wreckage" and nab some of their equipment. Such equipment would automatically flag Red if we equip it on our ships or crew.

If you use the mouse to highlight over the resource or equipment you'd get:
"Blackmark Goods! This item was obtained illegally and is of prohibited manufacture. If you equip this item it will be flagged as a contraband item and it will be seized". Something to that effect.

[cocoa-jin]

It doesn't have to be complicated.

You have two Phasers:

Phaser Bank Mk IIV
Power Consumption: 22 Damage: 220
Recharge: 0.55 Range: 635

Then you have the contraband one:
*Phaser Bank Mk IIV*
Power Consumption: 20 Damage: 280
Recharge: 0.50 Range: 635

Contraband would be marked Red and would have asterisks on the name. When entering a system that is patrolled you'd get a penalty of some sort:
-Perhaps you lose Faction points.
-Perhaps you're flagged and are now attacked by the faction controlling the system you entered.
-Perhaps you now have to do a special quest to confront the contraband issue.

It gives some more avenues to gameplay.

And how did that Phaser Bank Mk. IIV get flagged like that? Perhaps reverse engineering or some type of ability could be part of the character development. This would allow some players to actually be the ones that enhance weapons this way. Perhaps some Fleets could specialize in this sort of stuff.

A normal "legal" enhanced weapon might look like this:
following the above example:

Phaser Bank Mk IIV
Power Consumption: 24 Damage: 245
Recharge: 0.65 Range: 635

The same goes for obtaining a weapon of an oposing faction. Perhaps when we destroy oposing faction ships we might be able to "sift through the wreckage" and nab some of their equipment. Such equipment would automatically flag Red if we equip it on our ships or crew.

If you use the mouse to highlight over the resource or equipment you'd get:
"Blackmark Goods! This item was obtained illegally and is of prohibited manufacture. If you equip this item it will be flagged as a contraband item and it will be seized". Something to that effect.

For Starfleet vessels: Crews will already modify these systems...no need for contraband. Starfleet wouldnt allow the use of contra-band/3rd party modifications, no captain would risk the reprecussions of getting caught...no need for such contra-band systems. Any authorized faction wide increase in a system would be an upgrade...no need for contra-band. Starfleet captains have no way of paying for non-standard/unauthorized modifications anyway.

This could possibly be less restrictive for Klingons, though treaty banned systems would be prosecuted by the Klingon Command just like Starfleet.

The only place I really see these contra-band/3rd party modifications would be for civilian vessels at risk of heavy fines, reduction in faction status or even being flagged as criminal and other penalties/punishments if caught. I can accept such small increases for 3rd party mods/contra-band for use by Klingons at the risk of greater system failures to off-set their ability to utilize them over Starfleet vessels....still, no treaty banned weapons.

The use of non-standard equipment isnt an option for Starfleet...except the authorized use of prototype systems. Im willing to allow that many crew modifications be only temporary at the risk of higher system failure rates and possible system destruction for extended use.


There is no way for these 3rd party systems to get into Soveriegn economies, nor is there away for soveriegn captains(at least Starfleet for sure) to interact in the only economy which could sell these items...black market and possibly civilian free markets.

Im so against the equipping of other faction technology. There no reason to assume its compatiable with your systems, its highly unlikly you'll find an intergrated system that is viable/operational after getting blown up, gutted out and exposed to the hazards of space from the ship it was custome built into. These systems are much more intertwined within a ship than a simple LEGO type module piece.

Even if you got it to work, you'd have to assume a decrease in efficiency/effectivness, a significant and drastic increase in system failure rate, higher rate of system destruction and some possibilty of catostrophic failure putting other systems and the ship itself at risk. Its an option best utilized by civilians and rogues out of desperation, freedom from a faction command structure and policy and greater need or ability to take risks(faction punishment and ship safety).

[cocoa-jin]

Im also trying to think of a way to get civilian private enterprise into resource acquistion...Im not sure if I can reconcile private production of civilian goods yet. Maybe small scale resource minning for sale to NPC civilian and soveriegn faction buyers in intra-faction and/or inter-faction commodities markets. Credit and/or barter price determined by availability, region, use, etc. In addition there can be a dynamic supply and demand model applied artificially by the server to create varying commodity values over space and time.

Civilian products would be purchased from NPC producers, while perhaps players can use acquired resources to slightly modifiy/upgrade only these civilian items for re-sale. These upgrades would be nothing required to operate and progress one's character...only enhance a bit.

[cocoa-jin]

bump for additional discussion.