STO / SWG Discussion - Can Cryptic Avoid SWG Fate?

[Fitzhume]

Greeting all, first time post ... was a Star Wars: Galaxies player for some time, until the game got.. well, destroyed IMO. I try to create thought provoking threads to get opinions and promote discussion, so please try to keep all responses positive.

Well .. the parallels between the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are unmistakable: huge existing fanbase, set in space, decades old sci-fi franchises. For those that did NOT play Star Wars: Galaxies, a in-a-nutshell paraphrase of its fate would be as follows. The game started going in one direction, midway through they shifted to another hoping to appeal to the masses. Hotly debated, I felt it was disastrous.. the player numbers today seem to tell the tale. It started out focusing on world immersion, complex economic systems, and extraordinary player freedom and creation. The shift went towards a more marketable, action paced gameplay hoping to propel the player numbers into WoW territory.

The question is this... are these kinds of existing, large-scale franchises doomed to failure by trying to appeal to the masses? Should Cryptic try to create a product that is tailored to most existing Star Trek fans but might turnoff non-Trek fans... or should they try, like Galaxies, to be a little bit of everything hoping to reach more people?

My answer, in short, is that they should not try to appeal to the masses. But I would love to hear everyone's opinion, I am sure I will chime in later. :)

Fitzhume

[jayrelo]

Greeting all, first time post ... was a Star Wars: Galaxies player for some time, until the game got.. well, destroyed IMO. I try to create thought provoking threads to get opinions and promote discussion, so please try to keep all responses positive.

Well .. the parallels between the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are unmistakable: huge existing fanbase, set in space, decades old sci-fi franchises. For those that did NOT play Star Wars: Galaxies, a in-a-nutshell paraphrase of its fate would be as follows. The game started going in one direction, midway through they shifted to another hoping to appeal to the masses. Hotly debated, I felt it was disastrous.. the player numbers today seem to tell the tale. It started out focusing on world immersion, complex economic systems, and extraordinary player freedom and creation. The shift went towards a more marketable, action paced gameplay hoping to propel the player numbers into WoW territory.

The question is this... are these kinds of existing, large-scale franchises doomed to failure by trying to appeal to the masses? Should Cryptic try to create a product that is tailored to most existing Star Trek fans but might turnoff non-Trek fans... or should they try, like Galaxies, to be a little bit of everything hoping to reach more people?

My answer, in short, is that they should not try to appeal to the masses. But I would love to hear everyone's opinion, I am sure I will chime in later. :)

Fitzhume

in this day and age, theres no reason you can't appeal to all gamers. i played swg for two years, starting at release, and i just got disgusted by it. i have faith that since what i've read and learned through what happened to swg, i think since the epic fail is there to see, cryptic will learn what and what not to do.

there are so many mmorpgs out there that have succeeded and failed, that its good to have to baselines to feel out where your niche is.

[Ontas]

First, let me say welcome to the boards, friend. I'm your friendly neighborhood long-winded Andorian. Don't mind the agitators.

You've hit upon one of the most hotly debated subjects that we have here right now. The fanbase seems pretty evenly divided, though we have to keep in mind that since the game is still a ways from release, the current forum population is not necessarily representative of the game's final player base.

In answer to your question, I personally hope that the game is geared more for Trekkies than it is for Joe the Gamer. But I'm a Trekkie, so my opinion would be naturally biased that way.

Hopefully Cryptic can find a happy medium, but only time will tell.

[cavilier210]

well, it sounds like SWG was doing fine when it was doing the complex economics, character creation, and gameplay. i think all of us would favor a complexity higher then WoW.

I think the problem at its root was that the guys in charge of SWG tried to emulate and rival WoW, and that should never be the driving purpose. The purpose should be to create a great game, that may or may not rival WoW. I never see people saying how WoW has gone and taken routes other games take, because i think WoW's dev's really don't care what other MMO's besides the ideas they present. WoW seems to appeal to more people just because its based upon D&D, and is a fantasy, and blizzard can do whatever they want with it.

SWG had a limited timeline, and was doomed to fail because it didn't expand star wars, it lived in a universe that was already written and moved on from. Kinda like how Enterprise was in a way doomed to fail because it went backwards, not forward. I also think this new movie will fail for the same reason.

I think we players like to see the story develop, not be part of a developed story

[Hagon]

SWG simply made the right moves at the wrong time. They should have done it much earlier. They knew something was wrong when they had @750K (some sources say close to a million)box sales and only ended up with @250/300K subscribing after the first month, and were losing 10K+ subs a month from then on. Unfortunately they waited and made the changes right around when WoW was released. They knew that they'd lose a lot of whiners, but had hoped to gain lots of new customers. It would have worked too, except WoW just sucked everyone up and no one was paying attention to much else for a long time.

If there's anything that Cryptic can learn from SWG is that an IP only gets you some extra press. In terms of additional subscribers, it means almost nothing at all. If the game doesn't appeal to MMOGers in general, or as you say "the masses", then it will either fail, or sit with sickly numbers being an embarrassment.

[Thibor]

They're only doomed if the try to please everyone.

Come up with a plan and execute on it. You're not going to please everyone so don't try. Pick your target audience, peripheral audience and develop towards them.

And to say simply "Well then, Cryptic should design the game for the ST fan" is exceedingly ambiguous as there is a far range of "fandome".

[McManus]

As other people have said in this thread, SWG died because it tried to please everyone and tried to compete with WoW. This is a Star Trek game and lets not kid ourselves a lot of people won't play it as they will see it as "nerdy" or a "dead franchise", so let's just focus in on those who will play the game and tailor it to their needs and if people want to jump ship then great if not then fair enough.

[Hagon]

As other people have said in this thread, SWG died because it tried to please everyone and tried to compete with WoW. This is a Star Trek game and lets not kid ourselves a lot of people won't play it as they will see it as "nerdy" or a "dead franchise", so let's just focus in on those who will play the game and tailor it to their needs and if people want to jump ship then great if not then fair enough.To be more accurate, it was dying way before the changes, and it wasn't trying to compete with WoW when it made the changes. The changes were in the works before WoW came out.

[Varrangian]

To be more accurate, it was dying way before the changes, and it wasn't trying to compete with WoW when it made the changes. The changes were in the works before WoW came out.

This is very true. There were some inherent flaws in SWG that had already began to drive people away before the advent of things like the CU and the NGE.

SWG had a decent foundation, but it was such a sad box that once people finished grinding their 2.5 professions (or whatever skill choices they made) there was little for them to do with these skills. In a nut-shell SWG had not end game and the few attempts that were made to throw end game content together were not very good attempts.

Yes the bottom really fell out when WoW hit. In addition you have to know how SWG did these things. The day after their latest expansion (Trials Of Obiwan) hit they announced they were going to dramatically change the game. This is poor planning perfected.

The series of events that led to the "downfall" of SWG are nearly impossible for any game company to repeat, and this talk of doom and gloom is so overrated.

Yet SWG is still alive, they still produce updates and I've heard they are adding Hoth, so perhaps it is not the utter failure that some people think. It has a strange place in MMO culture as a game people love to praise some parts of, but also love to hate.

[Fernos]

Question- Can Cryptic Avoid SWG Fate?
Answer- Yes if they don't listen to some of the complete loons that demand that their scociopathic veiw of the Fedeation be implemented. :rolleyes:

[eventhorizen]

Franchises are inevtiably doomed when they lack creativity and rely upon the fanbase.

[Nyanya]

Star Wars Galaxies did a lot wrong throughout its lifetime and things just came together in completely the wrong way, but I think it's a mistake to say that what they did wrong was trying to appeal to the masses.

The mistake the OP is referring to was, I think, not that they tried to appeal to a larger audience, but that the radically changed an already live game, that they didn't communicate effectively to their players, that they tried to do too much at once. I believe that if the game had been like the NGE from the start, with players not knowing any better than it being like that, then it might've actually done quite well (I personally don't like what they've done with it as it takes away what made SWG special to begin with, but then I also greatly dislike WoW's leveling system and combat mechanics).

The problems started way before that though. When they launched the game the game was simply unfinished, it was not ready for launch (and all of us beta testers told them so, but they launched anyway). After that they simply weren't quick enough to fix things, it took ages to get things like death penalties to name an example. The missions were boring and repetitive (even if there were some good ideas behind them), and people generally felt that there was little to do. One of the telling things is that one of the core features, the Jedi system, wasn't even in at the time yet and they only had a week to implement it. For such an important part of the game that simply isn't enough and this kind of approach finds itself in everything. As I understand the CU and NGE both too were much unfinished and partly broken.

And when WoW launched and showed people that an MMO actually could be a complete game from launch, that it actually could be polished and finished, SWG was doomed as it was way too late to set the record straight. Why play something that's broken when you can play something that actually works?

That said, SWG still is the most enjoyable MMO I've ever played, givign me something that no other MMO has even come close to giving since. I think that next to the "don't do this" lessons any MMO can learn from it there are also a lot of positive lessons to learn from it, things any MMO would do well to strive for.

For example, SWG's chat and emote system is by far the best I've ever seen in any MMO ever. I'd say that others couldn't cold a candle to it, but SWG's chat system is a blazing sun in comparison. And I wish some MMO would adopt a system similar because that alone could make the game for me.

So can STO avoid SWG's fate? Yes. And I don't think that it has anything to do with whether it tried to please the fans or tries to please any majority. It has to do with whether the game is finished upon release, it has to do with whether the game itself is actually fun to play, it has to do with Cryptic continuing to improve upon it throughout its launch without trying to turn it into another game halfway through. But judging from CoX they've got those bases covered (CoH actually proved that you could have a complete game upon launch before WoW did so).

[jayrelo]

Star Wars Galaxies did a lot wrong throughout its lifetime and things just came together in completely the wrong way, but I think it's a mistake to say that what they did wrong was trying to appeal to the masses.

The mistake the OP is referring to was, I think, not that they tried to appeal to a larger audience, but that the radically changed an already live game, that they didn't communicate effectively to their players, that they tried to do too much at once. I believe that if the game had been like the NGE from the start, with players not knowing any better than it being like that, then it might've actually done quite well (I personally don't like what they've done with it as it takes away what made SWG special to begin with, but then I also greatly dislike WoW's leveling system and combat mechanics).

The problems started way before that though. When they launched the game the game was simply unfinished, it was not ready for launch (and all of us beta testers told them so, but they launched anyway). After that they simply weren't quick enough to fix things, it took ages to get things like death penalties to name an example. The missions were boring and repetitive (even if there were some good ideas behind them), and people generally felt that there was little to do. One of the telling things is that one of the core features, the Jedi system, wasn't even in at the time yet and they only had a week to implement it. For such an important part of the game that simply isn't enough and this kind of approach finds itself in everything. As I understand the CU and NGE both too were much unfinished and partly broken.

And when WoW launched and showed people that an MMO actually could be a complete game from launch, that it actually could be polished and finished, SWG was doomed as it was way too late to set the record straight. Why play something that's broken when you can play something that actually works?

That said, SWG still is the most enjoyable MMO I've ever played, givign me something that no other MMO has even come close to giving since. I think that next to the "don't do this" lessons any MMO can learn from it there are also a lot of positive lessons to learn from it, things any MMO would do well to strive for.

For example, SWG's chat and emote system is by far the best I've ever seen in any MMO ever. I'd say that others couldn't cold a candle to it, but SWG's chat system is a blazing sun in comparison. And I wish some MMO would adopt a system similar because that alone could make the game for me.

So can STO avoid SWG's fate? Yes. And I don't think that it has anything to do with whether it tried to please the fans or tries to please any majority. It has to do with whether the game is finished upon release, it has to do with whether the game itself is actually fun to play, it has to do with Cryptic continuing to improve upon it throughout its launch without trying to turn it into another game halfway through. But judging from CoX they've got those bases covered (CoH actually proved that you could have a complete game upon launch before WoW did so).

i played swg for two years starting at release, and i have to agree with everything you said, to the T.

it got repetitive and annoying, frustrating to me all at once, but you are correct. the social interface, the community, the universe were all very exciting. but it can only last so long, i mean, there has to be a working game behind it...

[Trekkie]

Honestly, I think that the developers are smart in trying to create a game that will be fun for fans of the franchise to play but not so overwhelming that general audiences are put off by it. I am all for making Star Trek Online as accessible as possible to ensure that a lot of people subscribe to it, and from a lot of the decisions from the developers it looks like they feel the same way.

[Father_Origin]

lol...ok fair question.

ok, SWG and the management of it by SOE falls under the category
of a ..Darwin Award.

(for the unknowing...a Darwin Award is when someone kills themselves in a extremely
stupid way)

SOE took a plunge down a cliff when they decided to totally change the game mechanics
of the game and expected the players to welcome it with open arms because it still said
it was star wars, and SONY is big and important.

One good thing came of it......The idea of totally changing the playing mechanics of an MMO
after is has been put out has now become taboo in the industry...even suggesting it
at a developer meeting will stain your employee record.

SO.......will Cryptic (or any other main line game maker) do that? Nope, No, Nadda, not happening.

so no need to worry, grab a Mt. Dew, sit back and relax.

[Redweaver]

Question: Can Cryptic avoid SWG fate?

Better question: When will y'all let the NGE go?



Seriously, it's way past merely getting old.

[Hagon]

SOE took a plunge down a cliff when they decided to totally change the game mechanics
of the game and expected the players to welcome it with open arms because it still said
it was star wars, and SONY is big and important.Actually they were well aware that they would lose a segment of their, what was then current, player base. They were banking on being able to make up those numbers and much more through instituting the changes. They simply were the victims of bad timing what with WoW coming on the scene. The changes they made were much needed for the game to survive. It was losing subs at a very fast rate.

[callsign11b]

Cryptic is a buisness and no mater what people think there in this for the money.
So I imagine they'll try to stay with a star trek feel but there looking for mass players.
Hopefully they'll see what works and what doesn't work with other mmo titles as well look at there products they have produced as a guide. To make this a enjoyable game to play.
I imagine the dev. are pushing hard to have it out to ride on the coat tail of the new star trek movie.
New movie showing will drum up interest again in the star trek franchise and they'll use that as free promotional interest so the game has high viewing promotional time.

[Blodveard]

I certainly hope that STO does not do what happend in Age of Conan. The worse thing that can happen is to promise all kinds of content, and then launch the game with less than 40% of what was promised.

The claim that we were paying to beta test a game was not only universally held, but painfully accurate. Now it is about 7 months since launch, and what improvements have been done are too little too late.

The Devs of STO must realize that we want a finished product, above all else. MMOs require combat that forces us to think, emersion, crafting, social tools, fleet tools, storage and intra fleet crafting and or resource trading, a good mix of pvp, pve and multi player quests, and a system not based on leveling but based on skills, and play styles that support combat, non-combat professions.

Without the above listed traits, STO will just be another MMO out there and it will largely fail to me even modest expectations.

[Blodveard]

Cryptic is a buisness and no mater what people think there in this for the money.
So I imagine they'll try to stay with a star trek feel but there looking for mass players.


This business model for MMOs has failed, over and over again! They need to be in the business of making a truly awesome game, and if they do, the masses will flock to it.

If they try to build a game to attract the masses, they will produce mediocre crap! They will be better served having 300k subs that stick around for 3 - 5 years, than 2 million subs that quit after 6 months.

[callsign11b]

I agree it would be in there best interest to produce a quality game that sets the bar for any future mmo games.
Like how star wars movies set the bar in special effects.
But the truth is they probly had to come up with large amount of money to buy the franchise rights for this game as well as costs for developement. so the accountants and investors will be putting pressure to release this game as soon as they can to get there money out of it.
thats what usually happens the dev. want to produce a great game but it always comes down to money.
so I see when it comes out.

[Seth07]

I play "SWG" and am going to be alittle defensiive, Its not strong right now but it is certainly not dead. Its so-so but given that I would end my subs right now for even a chance at "STO". My problem with moving on to another mmo is exactly what happen to "Age of Conan". It fell apart real quick many of our player's who said cya to "SWG" to go there came right back a month or two later. If they can stay clear of a problem like that I think they will be fine after they hit the two time bumps on the road six months then a year and I think if there still strong no worries unless they pull a "NGE". I hate saying "NGE" due to I think it is a old old topic that no one even would think of doing again and needs to be put to rest. As far as "WOW" is concerned they have pure gold its fantasy endless content that really does not have a real set rule of timeline or book and or movie/show. So "WOW" has a edge their that "STO" and "SWG" do not have but "Cryptic" made the smart move unlike "SOE" and place "STO" after the story/timeline of the movies and shows, "SWG" put its self in the story, which confined it and distorted it. I think one big thing most "SWG" players right now the current player base want is the "WAR" part of "SWG" back pvp is dead for most servers and is and could be the best content mmo have to offer if done right. Pve is great but ends up being done real quick. O-well I need to find a stoping place for my rant, Save some up for later right. lol I wish the best for STO because SWG is really one of the few few SI-FI mmos out there and I am sick of ELFS

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

You make it sound like appealing to the 'masses' and fans of Star Trek is mutually exclusive.

Frankly, I'll cut to the chase; Star Wars Galaxies, from its inception, was a poorly conceived and poorly executed game. For many, including myself, it was a failure both as a form of entertainment and a representation of the source material (Star Wars). You're welcome to disagree, but the numbers don't lie. SWG lost over half of its subscriber base shortly after launch, and continued to bleed an average of ten thousand subscribers per month. This was all prior to the 'Combat Upgrade' (CU) and 'New Gaming Experience' (NGE).

I don't speak for Cryptic, but I rather suspect they're in this business (and yes, game development *is* a business) to succeed and put food on the table. If you're hoping for them to follow in the footsteps of SWG, then honestly I think you're out of touch.

[CaptainQuirk]

Greeting all, first time post ... was a Star Wars: Galaxies player for some time, until the game got.. well, destroyed IMO. I try to create thought provoking threads to get opinions and promote discussion, so please try to keep all responses positive.

Well .. the parallels between the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are unmistakable: huge existing fanbase, set in space, decades old sci-fi franchises. For those that did NOT play Star Wars: Galaxies, a in-a-nutshell paraphrase of its fate would be as follows. The game started going in one direction, midway through they shifted to another hoping to appeal to the masses. Hotly debated, I felt it was disastrous.. the player numbers today seem to tell the tale. It started out focusing on world immersion, complex economic systems, and extraordinary player freedom and creation. The shift went towards a more marketable, action paced gameplay hoping to propel the player numbers into WoW territory.

The question is this... are these kinds of existing, large-scale franchises doomed to failure by trying to appeal to the masses? Should Cryptic try to create a product that is tailored to most existing Star Trek fans but might turnoff non-Trek fans... or should they try, like Galaxies, to be a little bit of everything hoping to reach more people?

My answer, in short, is that they should not try to appeal to the masses. But I would love to hear everyone's opinion, I am sure I will chime in later. :)

Fitzhume

I will answer your question with two of my own, and then I will answer them, and then you shall have your answer...

1 - Did Gene Roddenberry create Star Trek to appeal to the masses?
2 - Did George Lucas create Star Wars to appeal to the masses?

The answer to both questions is exactly the same:

No, he did not.

Therefore, the answer to your question is, no. MMOs should not be created to appeal to the masses. They should just be created and put out there for people to draw their own clonclusions. Just as Star Trek and Star Wars fans have done in terms of their respective favorite TV or Movie series...

People are going to like something or they are going to dislike it. Imagine if Paramount decided to change Star Trek to try to get the people that had already made up their mind that it wasn't for them to change their mind. A few might have come around, but they would have lost most of the fans that they originally had in the first place. THAT is what SOE did with Star Wars Galaxies... They wanted the subscribers who had chosen WoW instead of SWG, so they set about making SWG like WoW to draw those players in. SOE even went so far as to say that they were going after a new audience. You see, their original target audience wasn't who they wanted. Well, not only did they NOT pull WoW's subscribers out from under Blizzard, but most of their existing customers quit and too their mone to... you guessed it... WoW.

The majority of the forum posters back then when they changed the game were speaking out against the changes. And so they were subject to their threads being closed or being banned from the forums... SOE called them the vocal minority.

SOE turned the dis-satisfied majority into a vocal minority by silencing most of them.

So, SOE's attempt to cater to the masses failed. And the same fate will meet any MMO made that tries to do the same thing...

Products intended for the masses beg the question, "which masses?"

[Hagon]

I will answer your question with two of my own, and then I will answer them, and then you shall have your answer...

1 - Did Gene Roddenberry create Star Trek to appeal to the masses?
2 - Did George Lucas create Star Wars to appeal to the masses?

The answer to both questions is exactly the same:

No, he did not.

Therefore, the answer to your question is, no. MMOs should not be created to appeal to the masses. They should just be created and put out there for people to draw their own clonclusions. Just as Star Trek and Star Wars fans have done in terms of their respective favorite TV or Movie series...

People are going to like something or they are going to dislike it. Imagine if Paramount decided to change Star Trek to try to get the people that had already made up their mind that it wasn't for them to change their mind. A few might have come around, but they would have lost most of the fans that they originally had in the first place. THAT is what SOE did with Star Wars Galaxies... They wanted the subscribers who had chosen WoW instead of SWG, so they set about making SWG like WoW to draw those players in. SOE even went so far as to say that they were going after a new audience. You see, their original target audience wasn't who they wanted. Well, not only did they NOT pull WoW's subscribers out from under Blizzard, but most of their existing customers quit and too their mone to... you guessed it... WoW.

The majority of the forum posters back then when they changed the game were speaking out against the changes. And so they were subject to their threads being closed or being banned from the forums... SOE called them the vocal minority.

SOE turned the dis-satisfied majority into a vocal minority by silencing most of them.

So, SOE's attempt to cater to the masses failed. And the same fate will meet any MMO madeFirst, just to combat another one of these constant attempts to rewrite history, whether intentional or not. SOE wasn't attempting to steal players away from WoW. Most of the changes were implemented just shortly before WoW was released as a matter of fact. The changes they implemented were the right ones, but the timing was very bad, and really there was no way of them knowing what a juggernaut WoW would become, nor how quickly it became one.

As well, you can't equate a mmo GAME with movies and TV. Gamers expect certain mechanical features and game play elements in the games that they play, and the MMO enthusiasts are no different. These games aren't primarily story worlds for people to live in. They're games for people to play and have fun in. If Cryptic isn't able to offer a fun game to play for "the masses", then this effort will go nowhere. Simple as that. That doesn't mean that it has to copy everything from WoW either though.

[jayrelo]

i disagree with your premise CaptainQuirk, but i am not going to draw myself into this type of rhetoric. i will just say that cryptic has prerogative over all of this, and we will see what their dev and market strategy is soon enough. so far, i am happy with what i see.

i will point out this quote of yours.


Products intended for the masses beg the question, "which masses?"

good god man, what does that even mean?

do you know when you say that, masses can only have a connotation of one?... as in, there can't be two masses, because then they aren't masses anymore... :(

[jayrelo]

As well, you can't equate a mmo GAME with movies and TV. Gamers expect certain mechanical features and game play elements in the games that they play, and the MMO enthusiasts are no different. These games aren't primarily story worlds for people to live in. They're games for people to play and have fun in. If Cryptic isn't able to offer a fun game to play for "the masses", then this effort will go nowhere. Simple as that. That doesn't mean that it has to copy everything from WoW either though.

x2.

once again hagon, we find ourselves in complete agreement.

[andrewprofit]

Greeting all, first time post ... was a Star Wars: Galaxies player for some time, until the game got.. well, destroyed IMO. I try to create thought provoking threads to get opinions and promote discussion, so please try to keep all responses positive.

The question is this... are these kinds of existing, large-scale franchises doomed to failure by trying to appeal to the masses? Should Cryptic try to create a product that is tailored to most existing Star Trek fans but might turnoff non-Trek fans... or should they try, like Galaxies, to be a little bit of everything hoping to reach more people?

Fitzhume


SWG failed for three reasons.
1. Multiple servers game universes. This resulted in ghost servers which just fueled the downward spiral.
2. The Mission system was retarded. Goto a ingame console kill hive, repeat infinitly.
3. No spaceships for the first few years. By the time space ships were released the game was already on a downward spiral.

[CaptainQuirk]

First, just to combat another one of these constant attempts to rewrite history, whether intentional or not. SOE wasn't attempting to steal players away from WoW. Most of the changes were implemented just shortly before WoW was released as a matter of fact. The changes they implemented were the right ones, but the timing was very bad, and really there was no way of them knowing what a juggernaut WoW would become, nor how quickly it became one.

As well, you can't equate a mmo GAME with movies and TV. Gamers expect certain mechanical features and game play elements in the games that they play, and the MMO enthusiasts are no different. These games aren't primarily story worlds for people to live in. They're games for people to play and have fun in. If Cryptic isn't able to offer a fun game to play for "the masses", then this effort will go nowhere. Simple as that. That doesn't mean that it has to copy everything from WoW either though.

Don't you dare accuse me of trying to rewrite history, friend.

I was THERE. And WoW had been out long enough to, without really even trying, and by the virtue of simply being what it was, draw the numbers that SWG could have but didn't because the game was constantly being redefined on the fundamental level.

SOE staff memebers even admitted to basing the NGE on WoW. And they even admitted their surprise when they were given the go-ahead to do it.

SWG lost its crucial footing the day SOE decided to change it in an attempt to make it appeal to any audience that was not already enjoying it. Oh, it may have netted enough of a new audience in the past few years since the NGE to keep it afloat, but it still has yet to regain the numbers that remained after the firsrt mass-exodus that the CU brought. The official forums echo with complaints about grossly underpopulated servers, and while the current player base may have gravitated to two or three servers, it's a far cry from what it used to be...

So again, don't tell me I am rewriting history, or painting an inaccurate picture of what has become of SWG. It went downhill the moment it ceased being its own game, and SOE started looking with longing at WoW's subscriber base, abandoning the customers they had for those who had already rejected them.

So I say to Cryptic: Don't design STO with mass-market appeal. Just design it and let people make up their own mind. If you do your job right, you'll have a good subscriber base. And if you keep them happy, they'll stay and even bring their friends. But the moment you turn your back on them for an audience that is not already yours, you will doom STO to failure at worst and mediocrity at best.

That is the way I see it...

[jayrelo]

That is the way I see it...

you apparently see it with anger.

chill the funky out yo.

[jayrelo]

1. Multiple servers game universes. This resulted in ghost servers which just fueled the downward spiral.


i agree with the two others you listed, but not this one. it seems like another p.r. piece for the thought of one game universe, which i've stated, is all fine and good. i support it. but this is not 33% much less 1% reason why the game died. i mean, i started on release, and every server was crowded.

think about it for a sec andrew, for servers to be empty, ahem... (people need to leave). so people were already leaving for other reasons (the ones you stated are good examples of fact). i mean, if its crowded, people aren't certainly leaving because its empty.

now, if you want to argue that maybe they should have condensed servers or transferred stuff to fill out empty space, then by all means, i'm there with you bro.

:)

[Varrangian]

This business model for MMOs has failed, over and over again! They need to be in the business of making a truly awesome game, and if they do, the masses will flock to it.

If they try to build a game to attract the masses, they will produce mediocre crap! They will be better served having 300k subs that stick around for 3 - 5 years, than 2 million subs that quit after 6 months.

Yeah because WoW is an utter failure financially speaking :rolleyes:

[jayrelo]

Yeah because WoW is an utter failure financially speaking :rolleyes:

what the hell is wow?

i have no idear what you are talkin bout... ahem... willis. (had to)

:p

[CaptainQuirk]

good god man, what does that even mean?

do you know when you say that, masses can only have a connotation of one?... as in, there can't be two masses, because then they aren't masses anymore... :(

What do I mean by "Which Masses?"

Would you say that World of Warcraft has the masses behind it? What about Star Wars? What about Star Trek...

SOE tried to redefine SWG so that it would appeal to the masses that flocked to WoW... But the problem was that those masses, for the most part, are into the fantasy genre... you know. Elves, Dwarves and dragons and so forth? The things that so many here are tired of? How many times do you read some comment by someone saying, please, not another game with elves... ?

SOE couldn't even bother with trying to make SWG into an actual Star Wars game. It's got the sounds, the movies and some visuals, but it's only superficial. Underneath it all, it's just a generic MMO with a Star Wars skin wrapped around it.

Oh, and incidentally, a great many of WoW's elf-loving player base do not like Star Wars or Star Trek. But there are a great many who haven't even tried WoW that do. The just have not been measured yet... And they never will be so long as MMO designers keep trying to reach audiences who have already chosen what they like.

[andrewprofit]

i agree with the two others you listed, but not this one. it seems like another p.r. piece for the thought of one game universe, which i've stated, is all fine and good. i support it. but this is not 33% much less 1% reason why the game died. i mean, i started on release, and every server was crowded.

think about it for a sec andrew, for servers to be empty, ahem... (people need to leave). so people were already leaving for other reasons (the ones you stated are good examples of fact). i mean, if its crowded, people aren't certainly leaving because its empty.

now, if you want to argue that maybe they should have condensed servers or transferred stuff to fill out empty space, then by all means, i'm there with you bro.

:)

Well I left SWG because it became increasingly difficult to find people to play with amongst the enless rows of diserted player constructed buildings. That was the primary reason I left the game.

[Hagon]

Don't you dare accuse me of trying to rewrite history, friend.

I was THERE. And WoW had been out long enough to, without really even trying, and by the virtue of simply being what it was, draw the numbers that SWG could have but didn't because the game was constantly being redefined on the fundamental level.

SOE staff memebers even admitted to basing the NGE on WoW. And they even admitted their surprise when they were given the go-ahead to do it.

SWG lost its crucial footing the day SOE decided to change it in an attempt to make it appeal to any audience that was not already enjoying it. Oh, it may have netted enough of a new audience in the past few years since the NGE to keep it afloat, but it still has yet to regain the numbers that remained after the firsrt mass-exodus that the CU brought. The official forums echo with complaints about grossly underpopulated servers, and while the current player base may have gravitated to two or three servers, it's a far cry from what it used to be...

So again, don't tell me I am rewriting history, or painting an inaccurate picture of what has become of SWG. It went downhill the moment it ceased being its own game, and SOE started looking with longing at WoW's subscriber base, abandoning the customers they had for those who had already rejected them.

So I say to Cryptic: Don't design STO with mass-market appeal. Just design it and let people make up their own mind. If you do your job right, you'll have a good subscriber base. And if you keep them happy, they'll stay and even bring their friends. But the moment you turn your back on them for an audience that is not already yours, you will doom STO to failure at worst and mediocrity at best.

That is the way I see it...I'll tell you you are when I see that you are, and you are. I'd also suggest you saving that threatening tone for someone that will be impressed by it. I'm not. It just displays a distinct lack of character on your part to me is all.

SOE began instituting major changes in October 2004, as well that was when they began work on implementing the CU which came a few months later. WoW wasn't released until November 2004. The next major change was the NGE in November 2005. SOE began instituting the changes because it had lost well over half of it's potential subscribers within one month of it's release, and was losing more than 10K subscribers a month thereafter. It was failing,long before WoW came out, no ifs ands or buts about it, and all evidence pointed toward them continuing to lose customers until they were down to such a small sub base that it wouldn't be worth keeping the game going.

As it was, in the end the changes did still save the game, but that's all they did. The whiners left, it gained some new players that didn't get sucked into the WoW vortex, and they managed to keep the lights on. WoW was just too big a black hole in the market, or the changes would have had the game flourish. SWG wasn't the only game to lose out in a major way because of WoW though. DAoC, EQ, CoH, UO, and pretty much every other MMO did as well.

[jayrelo]

What do I mean by "Which Masses?"

Would you say that World of Warcraft has the masses behind it? What about Star Wars? What about Star Trek...

SOE tried to redefine SWG so that it would appeal to the masses that flocked to WoW... But the problem was that those masses, for the most part, are into the fantasy genre... you know. Elves, Dwarves and dragons and so forth? The things that so many here are tired of? How many times do you read some comment by someone saying, please, not another game with elves... ?

SOE couldn't even bother with trying to make SWG into an actual Star Wars game. It's got the sounds, the movies and some visuals, but it's only superficial. Underneath it all, it's just a generic MMO with a Star Wars skin wrapped around it.

Oh, and incidentally, a great many of WoW's elf-loving player base do not like Star Wars or Star Trek. But there are a great many who haven't even tried WoW that do. The just have not been measured yet... And they never will be so long as MMO designers keep trying to reach audiences who have already chosen what they like.

hunh?

seriously, i'm laughing right now, because i have no clue what you are talking about.

:p

c'mon buddy. hug me.

[jayrelo]

I'll tell you you are when I see that you are, and you are. I'd also suggest you saving that threatening tone for someone that will be impressed by it. I'm not. It just displays a distinct lack of character on your part to me is all.

SOE began instituting major changes in October 2004, as well that was when they began work on implementing the CU which came a few months later. WoW wasn't released until November 2004. The next major change was the NGE in November 2005. SOE began instituting the changes because it had lost well over half of it's potential subscribers within one month of it's release, and was losing more than 10K subscribers a month thereafter. It was failing, no ifs ands or buts about it, and all evidence pointed toward them continuing to lose customers until they were down to such a small sub base that it wouldn't be worth keeping the game going.

As it was, in the end the changes did still save the game, but that's all they did. The whiners left, it gained some new players that didn't get sucked into the WoW vortex, and they managed to keep the lights on. WoW was just too big a black hole in the market, or the changes would have had the game flourish. SWG wasn't the only game to lose out in a major way because of WoW though. DAoC, EQ, CoH, UO, and pretty much every other MMO did as well.

yeah, and when i said taht post was angry, i forgot to mention that i have to go with hagon on this one. its not just because all of his posts are sexy. on this one, he has sexy facts on his side.

and why are facts sexy?

cause you can't do anything with em but take it. they hot...

[Nagilum]

Star Wars Galaxies did a lot wrong throughout its lifetime and things just came together in completely the wrong way, but I think it's a mistake to say that what they did wrong was trying to appeal to the masses.

The mistake the OP is referring to was, I think, not that they tried to appeal to a larger audience, but that the radically changed an already live game, that they didn't communicate effectively to their players, that they tried to do too much at once. I believe that if the game had been like the NGE from the start, with players not knowing any better than it being like that, then it might've actually done quite well (I personally don't like what they've done with it as it takes away what made SWG special to begin with, but then I also greatly dislike WoW's leveling system and combat mechanics).

The problems started way before that though. When they launched the game the game was simply unfinished, it was not ready for launch (and all of us beta testers told them so, but they launched anyway). After that they simply weren't quick enough to fix things, it took ages to get things like death penalties to name an example. The missions were boring and repetitive (even if there were some good ideas behind them), and people generally felt that there was little to do. One of the telling things is that one of the core features, the Jedi system, wasn't even in at the time yet and they only had a week to implement it. For such an important part of the game that simply isn't enough and this kind of approach finds itself in everything. As I understand the CU and NGE both too were much unfinished and partly broken.

And when WoW launched and showed people that an MMO actually could be a complete game from launch, that it actually could be polished and finished, SWG was doomed as it was way too late to set the record straight. Why play something that's broken when you can play something that actually works?

That said, SWG still is the most enjoyable MMO I've ever played, givign me something that no other MMO has even come close to giving since. I think that next to the "don't do this" lessons any MMO can learn from it there are also a lot of positive lessons to learn from it, things any MMO would do well to strive for.

For example, SWG's chat and emote system is by far the best I've ever seen in any MMO ever. I'd say that others couldn't cold a candle to it, but SWG's chat system is a blazing sun in comparison. And I wish some MMO would adopt a system similar because that alone could make the game for me.

So can STO avoid SWG's fate? Yes. And I don't think that it has anything to do with whether it tried to please the fans or tries to please any majority. It has to do with whether the game is finished upon release, it has to do with whether the game itself is actually fun to play, it has to do with Cryptic continuing to improve upon it throughout its launch without trying to turn it into another game halfway through. But judging from CoX they've got those bases covered (CoH actually proved that you could have a complete game upon launch before WoW did so).




I totally agree with you I've played SWG from the start and still play it every day. I've seen the good times and the bad.It's what you make of it even though the servers are low there's still something to do.

From what i've been reading on these forums i think STO will be ok as long as they don't rush to get the game out before it's ready

[CaptainQuirk]

you apparently see it with anger.

chill the funky out yo.

I'm not angry...

I just see where the mistakes have been made. But I also see where the corporate suits who made them felt like they had to.

You see, the problems with Star Wars Galaxies all along could be summed up in two requests made by the community: Fix the bugs and add content. Yes, SOE is now working on deep level bug fixing and each chapter patch brings new content. But back in the days before the CU or the NGE. all SOE seemed to know how to do was reinvent the wheel using different shapes. They never once decided on a clear plan of design and stuck with it. In fact, some of the garbage they put in actually made people wonder whether or not their plan was to make the game as unlike Star Wars as they could make it.

[jayrelo]

I'm not angry...

I just see where the mistakes have been made. But I also see where the corporate suits who made them felt like they had to.

You see, the problems with Star Wars Galaxies all along could be summed up in two requests made by the community: Fix the bugs and add content. Yes, SOE is now working on deep level bug fixing and each chapter patch brings new content. But back in the days before the CU or the NGE. all SOE seemed to know how to do was reinvent the wheel using different shapes. They never once decided on a clear plan of design and stuck with it. In fact, some of the garbage they put in actually made people wonder whether or not their plan was to make the game as unlike Star Wars as they could make it.

well then, thank god that cryptic isn't soe.

i would actually like to see imput from current coh, cox players. i haven't played these mmorpgs, and it would be nice to hear how cryptic treats those franchises. and how they treat the rollout and release of champions will tell us whats in store i think.

[endeva]

As has already been mentioned, the end game of SWG caused a lot of problems, since there was none. They pushed to get people to open their Jedi slots, releasing an influx of information, that people just grinded them open and settled their characters after that. I will admit, I enjoyed that period, opened my jedi and had extreme fun, but I saw the BH's moan and whine and then changes came in that made Jedi transform from excellent characters into wastes of time. I believe that is what killed it for many, not the future changes to make it into a glorified shoot em'up.

However, many games of that period, didn't cater for end gamers and MMO's were really kicking off onto the masses. WoW did open the genre and infact, whilst we moan about WoW, we owe a lot too them. Asheron's Call, a long time game running on zone.com, applied levels and kept players, yet, Asheron's Call 2, was over in a month and had not further end-game past pvp, which just irritates people when they didn't have pvp for much of the game upto that point. So people left.

Cryptic's CoH/CoV is having the same problem. People leveled, did some pvp, had some fun and left. I did and I am sure many of you all did, but nothing was there to keep me. That I think is the key point to any mmo game now. (I really miss the original fire tanks in CoH.... another mistakes they made, bowing to whining inderviduals. :( )


Maybe the question should be....

Can Cryptic keep players in STO making a solid end game longevity whilst learning from previous mistakes of not just their own company, but many of the others?

[FrankNstein]

Greeting all, first time post ... was a Star Wars: Galaxies player for some time, until the game got.. well, destroyed IMO. I try to create thought provoking threads to get opinions and promote discussion, so please try to keep all responses positive.

Well .. the parallels between the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are unmistakable: huge existing fanbase, set in space, decades old sci-fi franchises. For those that did NOT play Star Wars: Galaxies, a in-a-nutshell paraphrase of its fate would be as follows. The game started going in one direction, midway through they shifted to another hoping to appeal to the masses. Hotly debated, I felt it was disastrous.. the player numbers today seem to tell the tale. It started out focusing on world immersion, complex economic systems, and extraordinary player freedom and creation. The shift went towards a more marketable, action paced gameplay hoping to propel the player numbers into WoW territory.

The question is this... are these kinds of existing, large-scale franchises doomed to failure by trying to appeal to the masses? Should Cryptic try to create a product that is tailored to most existing Star Trek fans but might turnoff non-Trek fans... or should they try, like Galaxies, to be a little bit of everything hoping to reach more people?

My answer, in short, is that they should not try to appeal to the masses. But I would love to hear everyone's opinion, I am sure I will chime in later. :)

Fitzhume

From your perspective it would seem that switching directions was not a good idea. I'd have to agree that changing the target audience (or as the corpse bean-counters probably put it, the "target market slice") would of course cause debate and confusion.

My perspective on what happens in the board room is: The trend this signifies sometimes comes about with a change in management that occurs when the money starts rolling in. The investors and whoever who previously let the devs and producers have a free hand, hoping their specific knowledge and skills would result in a success, step in when the income reaches a certain point. The emphasis changes from a knowledgeable, skilled approach to one of just pumping up the numbers to milk as much money from it as possible. The original devs and producers are set aside by political and other means... and the game goes to hell.

So as a fellow consumer who once again was "promised" one thing and got it switched to something else later on (that's called "bait-and-switch") ... yeah I have to agree with you. If a mmo is marketed as an appeal to the masses then fine. If a mmo is marketed as an appeal to a certain fan group, it should stay that way and not have bean-counters messing it all up halfway through.

Of course the "hit and run" executives who do all the maneuvering and the politicking to change a good thing to justify their existence (and their salary and bonuses) don't care one bit about what the consumers want. They just take their money and run.

Are all mmo doomed to follow this simple-minded "promise anything then do whatever it takes to bring in max-income and to hell with what the customers would like" formula? Probably! Bean-counters and executives can't see past the end of their bank statement. :cool:

[Fitzhume]

Thanks for all of the interesting takes on my question! :)

I guess I will respond to one point that was raised from my OP. It was raised, (very well put btw), about whether I was questioning appealing to the masses in general (the actual changes) or the fact that they made a radical change mid-game in SWG. My original intention was to focus on the former, disagreeing with the actual changes .. but I also agree you should never shift a game so much after launch.

Now to defend that a little more, I will add my spin to this. Using MMOGCHART as a reference, here is a a detailed list of active subscriptions for the past 10 years of many popular MMO's.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

As you can see, SWG subscriptions rocketed to 250k ... and held there pretty well, and then plummeted at the end of 2004, right at the CU. Am I saying the changes are bad? IMO yes, but hey, it's not my game. I have many friends who made their way back and have a lot of fun, I was just not one of them. It is publicly known that many of the changes were made because they felt it would open the game to a broader audience, IE: not SW fans.

Now ... someone else brought up a good point talking about WoW and its success, which reinforces my original belief that they should not try to appeal to the "masses". In MMO worlds... If you looked at the breakdown of MMO types, I am confident that you would see a LARGE market share going to the "Swords and Sorcery" type games, not space oriented franchises. WoW, Everquest, LOTR, Lineage, DAC, D&D.. the list goes on. Space? Let's see.. SWG, EvE.. and ... ?

In my opinion ... I would much rather see Cryptic make a very enjoyable, player-friendly game that they felt appealed to Star Trek fans .. and not be lured into the large numbers of the Swords and Sorcery fans who make up a large chunk of MMO players. If they can make a game that hits 300k subscriptions and would hold for a long time, I think it would be better than to take a chance at being the next 1mil+ MMO.

What is the perfect Trek fan profile? Probably another long thread... :) And I don't really know, but I hope Cryptic hits the nail on the head!

Again, thanks for all the responses!

Fitzhume

[jayrelo]

Thanks for all of the interesting takes on my question! :)

I guess I will respond to one point that was raised from my OP. It was raised, (very well put btw), about whether I was questioning appealing to the masses in general (the actual changes) or the fact that they made a radical change mid-game in SWG. My original intention was to focus on the former, disagreeing with the actual changes .. but I also agree you should never shift a game so much after launch.

Now to defend that a little more, I will add my spin to this. Using MMOGCHART as a reference, here is a a detailed list of active subscriptions for the past 10 years of many popular MMO's.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

As you can see, SWG subscriptions rocketed to 250k ... and held there pretty well, and then plummeted at the end of 2004, right at the CU. Am I saying the changes are bad? IMO yes, but hey, it's not my game. I have many friends who made their way back and have a lot of fun, I was just not one of them. It is publicly known that many of the changes were made because they felt it would open the game to a broader audience, IE: not SW fans.

Now ... someone else brought up a good point talking about WoW and its success, which reinforces my original belief that they should not try to appeal to the "masses". In MMO worlds... If you looked at the breakdown of MMO types, I am confident that you would see a LARGE market share going to the "Swords and Sorcery" type games, not space oriented franchises. WoW, Everquest, LOTR, Lineage, DAC, D&D.. the list goes on. Space? Let's see.. SWG, EvE.. and ... ?

In my opinion ... I would much rather see Cryptic make a very enjoyable, player-friendly game that they felt appealed to Star Trek fans .. and not be lured into the large numbers of the Swords and Sorcery fans who make up a large chunk of MMO players. If they can make a game that hits 300k subscriptions and would hold for a long time, I think it would be better than to take a chance at being the next 1mil+ MMO.

What is the perfect Trek fan profile? Probably another long thread... :) And I don't really know, but I hope Cryptic hits the nail on the head!

Again, thanks for all the responses!

Fitzhume

great chart. and i too hope that cryptic hits teh nail on the head, but if they are really close and keep improving, i will not complain.

[WinterPark1701]

SWG was a good game when it first came out except for the limited number of missions which where mostly go here, kill X things which got to be very repetitive but STO sounds like they'll avoid that. The problem with SWG was when they rebooted it and went to levels and then it just sucked after that. Cryptic seems to be doing all the right things so far.

[Fitzhume]

great chart. and i too hope that cryptic hits teh nail on the head, but if they are really close and keep improving, i will not complain.

One very interesting thing that I found was looking at the continuous growth of EVE Online. I never played the game, but the developers are obviously doing something right considering it has gained subscriptions, steadily, for almost 5 years. Anyone who plays that game have any insights?

Also .. I was looking around mmorpgchart.com some more and found this pie chart that supports my earlier claim about fantasy versus sci-fi market share. I think it speaks for itself.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart8.html

Fitzhume

[jayrelo]

One very interesting thing that I found was looking at the continuous growth of EVE Online. I never played the game, but the developers are obviously doing something right considering it has gained subscriptions, steadily, for almost 5 years. Anyone who plays that game have any insights?

Also .. I was looking around mmorpgchart.com some more and found this pie chart that supports my earlier claim about fantasy versus sci-fi market share. I think it speaks for itself.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart8.html

Fitzhume

indeed, and thats just not scifi, but superhero. i mean, thats like what, swg, coh, and maybe matrix. thats about it...

[Kinneas]

imo Star Trek should not be compared to generic sci-fi or even to Star Wars.

It is a social group unto itself that is grounded as much as it can be in the real world and sciences. Not 'a galaxy far far away'.

I love MMOGChart.com but am not certain those charts can fully predict what STO can do...especially if a Tv show/MMO tie in can be possible.

:) This can be my psychological denial speaking though : shrugs : heh :)

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Anyone who plays that game have any insights?

I think Yahtzee summed it up nicely...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online)

[Stopher87]

As long as i can play kareskat I am fine.

[Futuristicdragoon]

SWG is different than the way STO will be. How? More trekking, less waring. Sounds like I'm joking but I'm really serious. This game is gonna be more about exploring and cooperation, not PVP. They sectioned PVP off to the neutral zone so annoying kids don't get in the way of your exploring by blowing your ship to pieces whilst cursing at you with the ship they got decked out from playing all day every day. :D

You = :eek:

To answer your question... Yes.

[TheDoctor24]

I hope STO is nothing like SWG. I played SWG and I thought it a most unsatisfying experience. The best part was Jump to Lightspeed but even that was limited.

SWG consisted of boring kill X number of rat missions, and ghost cities to visit. And I don't dig complicated economic and class systems.

Bottom line, I hope STO is fun to play. And has a good feel of Trek.

[jonleach]

I think STO will be succesful only if they stick with the ideal of what Star Trek is about and not try to please everyone. If you try you will fail. If they will stick with the dream and vision of what they thought the STO should be it will succeed and be the game to play. From what I have read and heard of what they are thinking, I believe it will give the right mix to the die hard Trekie and those who want to build fleets and go kill something.

Call me crazy, but if any of you Dev's are reading this stick with the vision you have, not the masses, because we all will drive you crazy with....I want this and want that....:)

[Sorbek]

I really hope STO does well, as for my personal thoughts.

SWG was awesome before the CU because I could live in Star Wars and not forced to fight/craft/entertain if it didn't appeal to me. That and I could stay on one character and do any of those things. If i wanted to try out crafting just drop some skills and start my way to learning the others. There was absolutely no end. I even did Musican/Dancer for a while and just socialized with other players. (This is what im wanting out of Star Trek) I dont like to feel like I'm racing everyone else just to keep up.

To me MMO's worth is based on its community and SWG had that in spades. It let the player "Live" in the SW universe. (again this is my opinion)

I only left SWG because the company that changed things in the game did so with little warning the first time and no warning the 2nd time. I personally refuse to support a company that works that way and have not, nor ever will subscribe to a game they have anything to do with, what so ever. That includes this game here. If in anyway down the line SoE becomes involved in this game I am outta here. To me it doesn't matter how good the game is when it comes to them. (BTW I love PoTBS, EQ, EQ2, Planetside, Vanguard, and SWG (both PreCu and The NGE have some good things about them).

Just my 2 cents.

PS. I have faith in Cryptic!

[Redweaver]

Yeah because WoW is an utter failure financially speaking :rolleyes:

It may be financially successful, but it has crushed the ability/desire of any game making company to try anything "new", therefore WoW is just about the worst thing to ever happen to MMOs. Much like Magic:the Gathering to collectable card games.

Until game companies try to stand on their own games and quit just copying WoW because it's financially successful the MMO genre will only have it's collective quality suffer.

I'm not so much worried about Cryptic avoiding SWG's fate as I am about them making WoW with a Star Trek skin.

[Nyanya]

Now to defend that a little more, I will add my spin to this. Using MMOGCHART as a reference, here is a a detailed list of active subscriptions for the past 10 years of many popular MMO's.

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
While I love MMOGChart and often use it as a reference myself, and while it is without doubt the most accurate source for MMO subscriber numbers we have available, do keep in mind that it's not official and a lot of it is based on statements by developers and, to some degree, speculation.

In SWG's case, as I understand it one of the developers has stated that after launch it continually bled subscribers at such an alarming rate that they decided they had to do something drastic (instead of deciding that they made the mistake of releasing an unfinished game to begin with, but I digress :p).



It is a social group unto itself that is grounded as much as it can be in the real world and sciences. Not 'a galaxy far far away'.
I fear that you might have to make a lot of compromises there. For example, I fear that the galaxy is likely to be a lot more war-like than would realistically be the case (because players wouldn't have any compunction killing virtual characters where they likely would killing real, living beings). As for another example, things like travel-time are likely to be much simplified (and likely unnaturally so) to make for a smoother game experience (i.e. getting players to the 'action' quicker).

I'm sure you're already aware of this though. :)



SWG is different than the way STO will be. How? More trekking, less waring.
I truly hope that's the case. But in fairness Star Wars Galaxies was one of the least combat-oriented MMOs I've played (in fact I think only The Sims Online was less combat oriented).



SWG was awesome before the CU because I could live in Star Wars and not forced to fight/craft/entertain if it didn't appeal to me. That and I could stay on one character and do any of those things. If i wanted to try out crafting just drop some skills and start my way to learning the others. There was absolutely no end. I even did Musican/Dancer for a while and just socialized with other players. (This is what im wanting out of Star Trek) I dont like to feel like I'm racing everyone else just to keep up.
Agreed. Particularly that last sentiment; Star Trek Online shouldn't feel like you're racing everyone else just to keep up.



Until game companies try to stand on their own games and quit just copying WoW because it's financially successful the MMO genre will only have it's collective quality suffer.

I'm not so much worried about Cryptic avoiding SWG's fate as I am about them making WoW with a Star Trek skin.
Agreed as well and sharing the same worry. I hope that, unlike most games (despite them claiming to not be WoW; WAR, I'm looking at you here) STO has the guts to be its own game and do its own thing.

Some of the developer comments seem to support this (like them not wanting to do what everyone else is doing, or something to that effect) while others still leave me with question marks. But I guess we'll see.

[awhite75]

Well STO already has one thing going for it...

No Jedi

The hologrind was the beginning of the end for SWG. Secondly, SWG was just Everquest with wookies. As long as STO doesn't try to mimic WoW or become a skin for Champions Online, then its got a shot.

[CaptainQuirk]

I hope STO is nothing like SWG. I played SWG and I thought it a most unsatisfying experience. The best part was Jump to Lightspeed but even that was limited.

SWG consisted of boring kill X number of rat missions, and ghost cities to visit. And I don't dig complicated economic and class systems.

Bottom line, I hope STO is fun to play. And has a good feel of Trek.

Your description of SWG is not what the game was like under its original design concept. They did not go into a class-base system until the NGE nack in 2005. And while the complex economy had always been there, there was a time that it actually worked.

Oh, and the ghost cities were also a side effect of the NGE, resulting from all thos canceled subscriptions.

SWG's subscriber base reached approximately 250,000 subscribers, a number that, at that time, was considered average for an MMO. But then, world of warcraft came out, and it quickly dwarfed that number. SOE, about the same time, implemented the CU, which introduced combat levels and redistributed a great deal of the combat-oriented elements such as weapon/armor certifications, Those who had already advanced into the top tiers fo the combat skills they had chosen did not feel much of a sting. It was those who were low to mid-range in their advancement who suddenly found weapons that they had gained certification in were suddenly redistributed to highter rungs. And they were forced to go back to using weaker weapons. Not to mention that enemy stats changed... I remembered being able to solo a field-full of Kreetles with my weak weapon before the CU, but after, I did less damage and they seemed to do more. Not to mention the fact that you could get knocked off your swoop and insta-incapped by red-con hostile mobs after the CU, that you could have ridden straight through and avoided before. Of course, when you got up, they would insta-agro and insta-incap you again... And repeat that one more time and it's off to the cloner. These annoyances led to a lot of people quitting. Even back then, people were saying that SOIE was trying to turn SWG into WoW in space, what with the levels and all.

Durring the next six months, WoW continued to gain subscriptions at a phenomenal rate, and the suits at SOE and LEC began discussing how to fix SWG so it could compete... The NGE was the result. People had just adapted to the CU, and people were actually coming back. And then over night the game truly became a WoW clone. Well, we all know what that did.

From the beginning of SWG, as I have said before, the biggest complaints were the bugs and lack of Star Warsy content. It took a full year and a half past the NGE for SOE to finally realize that they needed to start adding content. Yes, today SWG is better than it was at the launch of the NGE, but in my opinion, it cannot hold a candle to the original design concept, which naturally resulted in the formation of a close-knit community, both in the game and on the forums. Symbiosis was built into the design. Everyone needed something from someone else. But when the Holocrons were introduced, the symbiosis was shattered. Suddenly, people who were so helpful to others before were too busy grinding Profession-X so they could unlock their Force Sensitive character slot.

The moment they began deviating from the original design was the moment things started to go bad.

So, the best way for Cryptic to avoid the fate of SWG is to stick to their original design once they launch. Yes, modifications will always be needed to avoid stagnation, but that should come in the form of the addition of gameplay options and content. Nothing should ever be removed. Doing so alienates those who are happy with the game.

And Cryptic should not concern themselves with WoW's (or any other MMO's) audience. They should concern themselves only with STO's audience...

[jayrelo]

they should concern themselves with everyone. don't limit it to just us. a game is for everyone.

[CaptainQuirk]

they should concern themselves with everyone. don't limit it to just us. a game is for everyone.

STO should be for everyone in the same sense that Star Trek itself is for everyone:

It is put out there for everyone to look at and choose for themselves whether or not they like it.

Did Paramount have an intent to attract Star Wars fans to Star Trek when they produced TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT? No... They had an intent to attract anyone who might be interested. And they did so by producing each series to be unique unto themselves. They didn't give characters lightsabers to attract the Star Wars fans... Yet there are Star Wars fans who also like Star Trek. I'm one of them. You see, Star Trek does not have to cater to Star Wars fans to attract them.

On the same token, the STO will not have to cater to players of other games to be able to attract those players. It simply needs to be put out there to be judged by the court of public opinion. If the design is sound, and the content engaging, it will do well.

SOE made the mistake of looking at WoW's customers with longing and then trying to make SWG into a WoW clone to try to pull those customers over to their side. Not only did WoW's customers collectively say, "no thanks, I've got everything you offer right here, and my friends and I are fine where we are," but SOE's existing customers became of the mind that if SOE was going to make SWG like WoW, then they might as well just go ahead and play WoW... Of course, many went to other games as well...

Blizzard was not planning on pulling players from any other company. They simply planned on creating what they felt would be a fun game and then they let the world decide whether or not it was.

Had SOE done what was asked of them from the start: Fix the bugs and add content, while sticking to the original design concept, SWG would not have needed a CU or an NGE. And while it may not have EVER reached WoW's numbers, it would certainly be better off than it is now in terms of membership,

So no... STO should not cater to the any group other than the one that would take interest in it. And they do that by designing it as a game wrapped around Star Trek, rather than Star Trek wrapped around a game, and they put it out there for the public to decide. Just like Blizzard did with WoW... And while they may not ever reach WoW's subscriber numbers, I am 100% confident that their numbers will be good enough.

[T-child]

no, i havent read the entire thread, no i wont ither, not today at least ;)

But id say yes, they can avoid the fate of swg if they have had thire eyes open and have a brain.
SOE + brain = error
brain + Cryptic = yes.

becouse they picked up sto. :p

[Tribbler]

Greeting all, first time post ... was a Star Wars: Galaxies player for some time, until the game got.. well, destroyed IMO. I try to create thought provoking threads to get opinions and promote discussion, so please try to keep all responses positive.

Well .. the parallels between the Star Trek and Star Wars franchises are unmistakable: huge existing fanbase, set in space, decades old sci-fi franchises. For those that did NOT play Star Wars: Galaxies, a in-a-nutshell paraphrase of its fate would be as follows. The game started going in one direction, midway through they shifted to another hoping to appeal to the masses. Hotly debated, I felt it was disastrous.. the player numbers today seem to tell the tale. It started out focusing on world immersion, complex economic systems, and extraordinary player freedom and creation. The shift went towards a more marketable, action paced gameplay hoping to propel the player numbers into WoW territory.

The question is this... are these kinds of existing, large-scale franchises doomed to failure by trying to appeal to the masses? Should Cryptic try to create a product that is tailored to most existing Star Trek fans but might turnoff non-Trek fans... or should they try, like Galaxies, to be a little bit of everything hoping to reach more people?

My answer, in short, is that they should not try to appeal to the masses. But I would love to hear everyone's opinion, I am sure I will chime in later. :)

Fitzhume

I played SWG for 2 years and this is what I discovered---

Firstly, those players that started the game and continued to play it were deeply bitter and ruined it for a lot of the new players. A good example was to try to ask a simple question in the forums and how many negative and demeaning responses you would get.

Secondly, Sony bit off more than they could chew and started listening to players and devs who did not enhance the existing game but did a complete change and forced style of play. Oh did I mention using existing MMO ideas instead of developing their own style?

Thirdly, they did not monitor and change problems (capped cities, NPC's shooting through floors, yadayada)

Fourthly,they have not been able or refuse to combine low player base servers (just collect da money and let them burn attitude).

Fifthly, Unbalanced proffessions too wildly.

I mean seriously, the dev teams should have term limits because they had their favorite players and listened to them and changed the game to benefit their friends more than to equal gameplay amongst the different proffessions amongst many, many noticeable problems.

Here's an example;

A level 90 player having to shoot 50 level 3 toads to get 1 part of a 10 part trophy that was unique but it did not promote group play and therefore alot of the remaining guilds fell apart.

Another exmple was to make it where Jedi would have to grind for months or pay exhorbitant amounts of money for a Lightsaber Crystal that hardly ever spawned unless you were one of the players who knew right where to go the first week of the chapter release. Cuz after that 1st week and several players got it quickly, they decreased the loot chance.

Tell me what does a non-jedi need for this item? How does this promote guild involvement?

Sony dug their own grave and good riddance.

Oh I am planning on developing the first tribble lightsaber so watch out!!!

[sasladem]

SWG was the best experience I have had in any MMO, I have been looking for that experience in MMOs since to no avail. I started playing it about 6 months after it was realeased. The community made that game and the sandbox style of play was just awesome. Levels didn't exist they had skill trees and all the trees were open to anyone who made a character. So if you used a a one handed sword you got one hand sword exp, if you used a rifle you got rifle exp etc.

I remember going into a cantina and seeing it full of people, some were entertainers so they were dancing or playing instruments while others would go there to clear their wounds and would just chat it up. It felt like a real cantina it was bumping pretty hard and was very social.

I remember when I first logged into the game, I was broke so I took some missions from a terminal that sent me to collect some resources. When I got there I saw a wookie standing there, and he started saying stuff but I couldn't understand because he was a wookie and could only speak wookie lol. He had to teach me the wookie language so we could communicate, just simply awesome I thought.

Well those are just a few experiences out of many that I had, too bad they changed it to the point it wasn't fun anymore.

[jayrelo]

SWG was the best experience I have had in any MMO, I have been looking for that experience in MMOs since to no avail. I started playing it about 6 months after it was realeased. The community made that game and the sandbox style of play was just awesome. Levels didn't exist they had skill trees and all the trees were open to anyone who made a character. So if you used a a one handed sword you got one hand sword exp, if you used a rifle you got rifle exp etc.

I remember going into a cantina and seeing it full of people, some were entertainers so they were dancing or playing instruments while others would go there to clear their wounds and would just chat it up. It felt like a real cantina it was bumping pretty hard and was very social.

I remember when I first logged into the game, I was broke so I took some missions from a terminal that sent me to collect some resources. When I got there I saw a wookie standing there, and he started saying stuff but I couldn't understand because he was a wookie and could only speak wookie lol. He had to teach me the wookie language so we could communicate, just simply awesome I thought.

Well those are just a few experiences out of many that I had, too bad they changed it to the point it wasn't fun anymore.

SWG was the best experience i had in mmorpgs too! except that after a couple years of playing since release, the best was actually me being disgusted and projectile vomiting all over my game box.

i'll give you alot of your points, the game was pretty, the community, environment were all fantastical. but the game itself was painful last finish special olympics retarded. i'm sorry, it just irked me to no end.

but so far, this forum is a great community, and i have a much deeper connection to trek than starwars, so we shall see. i hold my battered breath! (but i think it'll be great) :)

[cavilier210]

but so far, this forum is a great community...


amen, thats why i like spending time on these forums :-D

[sasladem]

SWG was the best experience i had in mmorpgs too! except that after a couple years of playing since release, the best was actually me being disgusted and projectile vomiting all over my game box.

i'll give you alot of your points, the game was pretty, the community, environment were all fantastical. but the game itself was painful last finish special olympics retarded. i'm sorry, it just irked me to no end.

but so far, this forum is a great community, and i have a much deeper connection to trek than starwars, so we shall see. i hold my battered breath! (but i think it'll be great) :)


Yeah I know what you mean. I am not too hardcore into Star Trek but I like the way the captains handle each unique experience they get into and how they exhaust all their options, it draws me to watch the episodes whenever I see that they are on.

The community here seems to really love their Star Trek and that should lead to a great community in game aswell.

I think being able to explore the Star Trek universe is going to be awesome, I can't wait to get more info on the gameplay though.

[jayrelo]

I think being able to explore the Star Trek universe is going to be awesome, I can't wait to get more info on the gameplay though.

i'm pretty sure you are in the same boat as all of us, and the boat is getting bigger...