Score: Star Wars 2, Star Trek 0

[willriker09]

So, Star Wars gets 2 MMO's before Star Trek even has one? Granted that The Old Republic has not come out yet, this is rediculous. Star Trek is so much better than Star Wars in every way I can think of (except for lightsaber fights and fast paced space ship battles, but I refuse to allow people to call Star Wars better than Star Trek simply because it is more action packed. Have our entertainment forms degenerated to something so shallow? But all of this ranting is neither here nor there).

I guess I am just using this point to emphasize my difficulty in sitting here and waiting another year or so to play Star Trek Online. It is really almost painful...strike that, it is just plain painful. Star Trek had several televison shows and films before Star Wars was even on its prequels. What took Star Trek Online so long?

[Cormoran]

by your logic, shouldn't it be; star wars 2, star trek 1?

you're right, TOR isn't out yet, and neither is STO, so if you've counted TOR, you must count STO too.

[willriker09]

Yeah, I didn't want to count STO because I am not giving my hopes up again (curse you Perpetual! Curse You!!!)

[CaptainQuirk]

So, Star Wars gets 2 MMO's before Star Trek even has one? Granted that The Old Republic has not come out yet, this is rediculous. Star Trek is so much better than Star Wars in every way I can think of (except for lightsaber fights and fast paced space ship battles, but I refuse to allow people to call Star Wars better than Star Trek simply because it is more action packed. Have our entertainment forms degenerated to something so shallow? But all of this ranting is neither here nor there).

I guess I am just using this point to emphasize my difficulty in sitting here and waiting another year or so to play Star Trek Online. It is really almost painful...strike that, it is just plain painful. Star Trek had several televison shows and films before Star Wars was even on its prequels. What took Star Trek Online so long?

Personally, I like Star Wars more than Star Trek, but I like them both and grew up with both. Just like I grew up with games and the first MMO was a product of my generation. I feel that there is room for MMOs for both ST and SW.

As to the fact that there are 2 Star Wars MMOs, Essentially with SOE's failure to actually decide what they wanted to do with SWG, always reinventing it and driving more customers away each time, I think that LucasArts realized that what people wanted out of a Star Wars MMO was to an experience an epic Star Wars story. Trouble is, the way SWG has ended up and the holding pattern SOE is in with it, Making it conform to a new model would destroy what is left of its customer base. There is, hands down no other game development company more dedicated to the story behind a game than BioWare. If anyone can take a deep story like the one in KotOR and adapt it so that it is unique to all classes and be compelling for a mass audience, it is BioWare.

SWTOR will not be your typical MMO, any more than STO will. I've just got that feeling

[M_Wagner]

You know what the ironic thing is? WAY back Activision had plans to make Star Trek Online, however the company that they contracted to develop it decided to take another offer for an MMO and the project got scrapped. That other MMO was Star Wars Galaxies... Go figure.

[marscentral]

Sometimes these things just don't work out. A similar thing is happening in the comic book world. DC is owned by Warner Bros., so they should be dominating the comic book movie market right? Sadly, they can't make a Superman film without over a decade of preproduction nonsense and then turn out the mediocre Superman Returns, with glaring flaws even the most casual fan could have spotted. Batman is the only character they've managed to do properly and that is a shameful record. Marvel on the other hand, managed to really get the right people on Spider-man and X-Men. Even though there were missteps (Hulk, Daredevil - which I liked, but alot of people didn't), they can now make their own films, like Iron Man and the new Hulk which were awesome.

I went on a bit of a rant there but what I'm saying is; how well things get developed is no reflection on the IP but the developers. Star Trek is, I believe, in safe hands (so is Star Wars, Bioware is a great developer).

[PugPug]

Star Wars has more action sequences. The style lends itself better to video games. This hasn't been isolated to MMOs. Why do you think all of the recent Star Trek games have been RTS?

I'm looking forward to STO as much as anyone else, but it won't cater to the action-hungry masses. That's why.

[Dr._Sskarno]

What is your problem willriker? So TOR was announced. Big deal. It takes time to develop an MMO. From the looks of things STO will be out at least 2 years ahead of The Old Republic...

[chaotix987]

So, Star Wars gets 2 MMO's before Star Trek even has one? Granted that The Old Republic has not come out yet, this is rediculous. Star Trek is so much better than Star Wars in every way I can think of (except for lightsaber fights and fast paced space ship battles, but I refuse to allow people to call Star Wars better than Star Trek simply because it is more action packed. Have our entertainment forms degenerated to something so shallow? But all of this ranting is neither here nor there).

I guess I am just using this point to emphasize my difficulty in sitting here and waiting another year or so to play Star Trek Online. It is really almost painful...strike that, it is just plain painful. Star Trek had several televison shows and films before Star Wars was even on its prequels. What took Star Trek Online so long?

God, I feel the same way.

[ElbyStarfire]

Comepare the conversations on this set of forums to the ones in the TOR forums. Im looking forward to both games. Howveer, I cannot stand the negativity and flame wars that have already erupted over on the TOR forums. In part, those have to do with SWG. I wish I could pack all of the whiners and flamers over there in cold storage and use them in photon torpedoes. It would explain the fiery appearance and "wheeeeoww" sound of the torpedoes. :D

[Father_Origin]

Lets see...

SWG - Imploded in the worst disaster in MMO history
Old Republic - Bioware (who has never made an MMO, and never takes player input) is trying
to resurect the dead.

I would call it

Star wars 0 - Star trek 0 and odds are against Star Wars.


My opinion

[RookActual]

Lets see...

SWG - Imploded in the worst disaster in MMO history
Old Republic - Bioware (who has never made an MMO, and never takes player input) is trying
to resurect the dead.

I would call it

Star wars 0 - Star trek 0 and odds are against Star Wars.


My opinion

A lot of companies that haven't made MMOs before, have made some pretty awesome MMOs. BioWare may or may not take input from it's players, but they tend to come up with some very good RPGs. I'm a big Star Wars fan, and even though I didn't like KoTOR, mostly just because of it's setting...it was an extremely popular game. Probably more popular than any Trek game, for sure. It even has it's own strong fan base, Star Wars fans that don't care so much for anything but the Old Republic era. BioWare passed it on, with high recommendation, to Obsidian, who did just as well with their sequel. In fact, one of the main criticisms of Mass Effect is that fans wanted KoTOR. Although Mass Effect was an exceptional game in it's own right and I'm highly anticipating it's sequels.

I'm not saying BioWare can't fail, but even when they put something in someone else's hands it succeeds. A lot of gamers have been demanding another Old Republic game since the day the second one was released. To say the game was dead? I don't really grasp that. No facts support, whatsoever, that the Old Republic games were failing or anywhere near done.

If anyone can pull off an MMO, and do it right, I have a lot of faith in BioWare. A company's who's lowest mark in history was still a fairly well made game, Jade Empire. Sorry Cryptic, no offense, but I've honestly never played any of your titles. I hope Crytic does a fantastic, perfect job on this game, but I have to think even the guys in the Cryptic office have some respect for BioWare's achievements. Maybe not, but I'd like to think so.

Unfortunately, the odds are always against Trek. I really can't think of a single Trek game that has been more than marginally successful. Hopefully this one will break that trend.

[Telekill]

Think of it this way... the longer we wait on STO... the better it should be because the more time they've had to work on it.

If I remember correctly, many didn't like the first Star Wars MMO. Something was wrong with it, though I dontk now what cause I'm not into Star Wars and never played the game. A friend of mine did though and he said that it was pretty horrible. If this new Star Wars MMO is also put out quickly, one could expect to see the same results from the fans of that series.

[Futuristicdragoon]

So, Star Wars gets 2 MMO's before Star Trek even has one? Granted that The Old Republic has not come out yet, this is rediculous. Star Trek is so much better than Star Wars in every way I can think of (except for lightsaber fights and fast paced space ship battles, but I refuse to allow people to call Star Wars better than Star Trek simply because it is more action packed. Have our entertainment forms degenerated to something so shallow? But all of this ranting is neither here nor there).

I guess I am just using this point to emphasize my difficulty in sitting here and waiting another year or so to play Star Trek Online. It is really almost painful...strike that, it is just plain painful. Star Trek had several televison shows and films before Star Wars was even on its prequels. What took Star Trek Online so long?

Well, Star Trek is definitely better in nearly every way. I used to think SW was so cool, but recently (after becoming a big Trek fan) I tried to get all into watching Episode 4 and I fell asleep cause it was so boring.

Well, I guess this isn't the point though! IMO SW games rock... but they aren't THE BEST. STO isn't coming out for a long time because they're willing to sacrifice a year that ppl will not be able to play so that it will be THE BEST! :D

[Decius]

I like them both for different reasons. I grew up watching both over the years.

[Futuristicdragoon]

My main beef with SW is that it's based mainly on a comic and that it's a comic I love. I'm a real big comic fan too. New Gods was awesome.

[KypFisto]

Before this degrades into a Star Wars v. Star Trek argument...

I'd hardly say that Star Wars has anything on Star Trek MMOwise. Galaxies started out as mediocre (I personally enjoyed it when I played back in 04) and then took a nosedive far under the slimy deep end of horse *****.

I say, they've both had their blunders. Now we'll see which one turns out to be the better game. KoTOR or STO.

[Kudos17]

The reason why Star Wars has so many more games then Star Trek is simple. Star Wars has very little depth we you pit it up against Star Trek. The world of Star Trek is so vast, so great, so indepth, it goes way behond space battles and old republics.

In fact the reason why so many ST games flop are because alot of games never realize the depth that ST fans want, and the IP has to offer. Any joe shmo (or should I say Joe Plummer) could make a Star Wars game, but it takes a unique bunch to make a real amazing star trek game.

You go Cryptic:D

[RookActual]

The reason why Star Wars has so many more games then Star Trek is simple. Star Wars has very little depth we you pit it up against Star Trek. The world of Star Trek is so vast, so great, so indepth, it goes way behond space battles and old republics.

In fact the reason why so many ST games flop are because alot of games never realize the depth that ST fans want, and the IP has to offer. Any joe shmo (or should I say Joe Plummer) could make a Star Wars game, but it takes a unique bunch to make a real amazing star trek game.

You go Cryptic:D

-blink-....no depth compared to Trek? oooooookay.

I'll shut up now, because I don't want this becoming a SW vs ST thread.

[Futuristicdragoon]

-blink-....no depth compared to Trek? oooooookay.

I'll shut up now, because I don't want this becoming a SW vs ST thread.

I'll start a thread on the "General" section so you all can start it there if you feel this thread starts slipping. It'll be called "STvsSW DUAL!"

[Keytock]

Wow, this is a mexican stand off at hiigh noon for me. I like both sw and st. I can take apart each and build them up again and will find the pros and cons for each. But the fact is Star Trek came before Star Wars. Regardless of what I think; I am surprise at some level that there was not 1 mmo out there based on ST.

[Lizzio]

2vs1 you say.. its just starwars got crappy Mmo's and Sto has one of the best coming out
1 is beter that means more players..

[Silverspar]

-blink-....no depth compared to Trek? oooooookay.

I'll shut up now, because I don't want this becoming a SW vs ST thread.

It really doesn't though, if it weren't for the fans putting their own spina nd screwing up the SW continuity (thanks to George saying all books are canon in the long run) there would be no real depth to SW at all. The major depth of SW is good vs evil, wit a sci fi spin. Basically it mixes three genres, western, fantasy, and sci fi, and I think that's one of the reasons I found the prequels such a let down, the western was missing.

[RookActual]

It really doesn't though, if it weren't for the fans putting their own spina nd screwing up the SW continuity (thanks to George saying all books are canon in the long run) there would be no real depth to SW at all. The major depth of SW is good vs evil, wit a sci fi spin. Basically it mixes three genres, western, fantasy, and sci fi, and I think that's one of the reasons I found the prequels such a let down, the western was missing.

I think it comes down to what sort of Star Wars fan you are. I will argue to the death that the expanded universe is very very deep, with very colorful and strong characters. It's getting deeper all the time. This is an opinion based thing, but I've personally always felt Trek was much more shallow than SW. This is why I didn't want to get into this, because someone else will argue the opposite. I think SW's problems are a lot of it's fans don't really appreciate the depth as much as they do the visceral action. That doesn't mean it's not there, though. It's just distracting. Me, personally, I get annoyed when I have to read about a fight or a battle all the time. It has to be there, because of the epic nature of the franchise, but I really enjoy the intrigue and character development.

The prequel movies just didn't do it for me. It wasn't gritty enough, just because it took place in a more free and prosperous era didn't mean it couldn't be gritty.

[Futuristicdragoon]

SWG was a real fun community at the beginning, but I think STO will do much better IMO. What it comes down to usually in this case is quality, not quantity.

[Futuristicdragoon]

It really doesn't though, if it weren't for the fans putting their own spina nd screwing up the SW continuity (thanks to George saying all books are canon in the long run) there would be no real depth to SW at all. The major depth of SW is good vs evil, wit a sci fi spin. Basically it mixes three genres, western, fantasy, and sci fi, and I think that's one of the reasons I found the prequels such a let down, the western was missing.

I think it comes down to what sort of Star Wars fan you are. I will argue to the death that the expanded universe is very very deep, with very colorful and strong characters. It's getting deeper all the time. This is an opinion based thing, but I've personally always felt Trek was much more shallow than SW. This is why I didn't want to get into this, because someone else will argue the opposite. I think SW's problems are a lot of it's fans don't really appreciate the depth as much as they do the visceral action. That doesn't mean it's not there, though. It's just distracting. Me, personally, I get annoyed when I have to read about a fight or a battle all the time. It has to be there, because of the epic nature of the franchise, but I really enjoy the intrigue and character development.

The prequel movies just didn't do it for me. It wasn't gritty enough, just because it took place in a more free and prosperous era didn't mean it couldn't be gritty.

I respect your opinions, but none of these apply to the first post in the thread. Please take this no further. Let's talk STO ^^ Better not to state what you think is better. I have before, but I'm trying to stop as well.

[RookActual]

I respect your opinions, but none of these apply to the first post in the thread. Please take this no further. Let's talk STO ^^ Better not to state what you think is better. I have before, but I'm trying to stop as well.

I tried, sir, but they kept prodding me!

[Sevenblade]

I respect your opinions, but none of these apply to the first post in the thread. Please take this no further. Let's talk STO ^^ Better not to state what you think is better. I have before, but I'm trying to stop as well.

Says the man who started a ST vs. SW thread :p

[RookActual]

Says the man who started a ST vs. SW thread :p

When did you start having valid opinions? :p

"Fire the weapons grade justice, Mr. Rook!"

[Captain_Intrepid]

My main beef with SW is that it's based mainly on a comic and that it's a comic I love. I'm a real big comic fan too. New Gods was awesome.

Star Wars is based mainly on a comic?

Huh? That's a very strange statement.

And what the heck does the New Gods have to do with Star Wars?

[Futuristicdragoon]

Oh boy, I wish I could talk about this now but it may start something. Don't know If I'll risk more bombardments to my ego! :D I'll PM you with info.

[chaotix987]

Says the man who started a ST vs. SW thread :p

From what I understand, the ST v SW battle has already begun over on the OR forums. I don't think we need to do the same.

[Elvennomad]

I too am a fan of both. I do have to say that the new films have really turned me off to the star wars franchise. I didn't hate the films ... I actually did enjoy them but they were missing the magic for me. I could go into all of this here but this isn't the place. To me the most solid contributions to the Star Wars franchise has been the games. Look at what Shadow of the empire did for the franchise. The game wasn't even that great and it launched a figure line, a book series, and a slew of other crap. Look what The Force Unleashed is doing for the franchise. Hell there are rumors that Lucas wants to make a Film based on the game. The game was average at best ... of course you can argue that point but, before you do, please play games like devil may cry 4 or even God of War 2. Gameplay wise TFU doesn't stand up. Star Trek has never had this. The games are usually a small step up from unplayable garbage. For every Bridge Commander there are two or three Klingon Honor Guards. I already have a Star Trek Online T-Shirt. Thats 100% more merchandising than anything I can remember previously. The games just never really had any mass appeal. Star Wars has opened its arms and is trying to HUG EVERYONE. For years Star Trek has had its arms crossed and you need to know the secret handshake to even get a hello. Of course this is all preception. My hope is that with the new film coming ... the slew of merchandising going out there ... this game gets the hype it so deserves. Does Star Wars have a stronger foothold in the gaming world currently ... Of course. Its about time we give them a run for their money. Oh and trust me having competition only makes games better. I can't wait to play either ... it is painful ... but it looks like its gonna be worth walking through glass barefoot.

On a side note I have found all the bickering about the 5 screen shots that were released very amusing. I highly recommend them.

[Futuristicdragoon]

Alright... I'm tired... I just hope this madness stops. I can't help but think I helped to start this, but whatever. It's a useless conversation.

Advice: Talk about what applies to the thread. I know I didn't at first... but I will start doing it if it means avoiding large useless threads that waste Cryptics space and all our time.

Night all. Peace and long life.

[Sevenblade]

When did you start having valid opinions? :p

"Fire the weapons grade justice, Mr. Rook!"

I wasn't aware that I did :eek:

Quick, someone get me my meds!

[Captain_Intrepid]

I wasn't aware that I did :eek:

Quick, someone get me my meds!

What is state of the medical emergency?

[sdcabrad]

Lets Face it, I played in SWG beta and for the next 2 years after release until they completely ruined it, so it really doesn't count except the fact that yes they released an MMO, lol. I would certainly check out anything BioWare is working on though.


I would much rather wait for a solid game and not be continuously disappointed than to be continuously disappointed.

[Ahsoka]

I fear KOTOR 3 will end up being a PvP fest of Sith and Jedi

and will last about as long as Conan did.

[Elvennomad]

To be honest the screen shots reminded me of Phantasy Star Online. If Old Republic plays like that sign me up.

[marscentral]

Bioware has a great track record, so I'm watching SW:TOR with some anticipation. KOTOR always felt like it was only half done as a one player game (awesome as it was). Stiff competition for the lads at Cryptic, but that will hopefully be good for us gamers. Not so good for my real life as I will soon be lost to my three favourite universes (Trek, Star Wars and DC).

[Father_Origin]

Well here is one way of looking at it.

SW basic story is perfect for a stand alone game. good vs evil, the bad guys are easy to see.
It is very straight forward...defeat the bad folks and there is peace.
Perfect for a stand alone game....poor for a MMO
and go fig.....sw stand alone games did great...the MMO self destructed..even when backed
by the riched game company (before blizzards wow) on planet earth.

ok ST, the story is never black and white, each story is just a small part of the universe, who
is bad or good depends on who you ask.
Bad for a stand alone game...great for a MMO
go fig. star trek stand alone games never hit it big...but given proper care..the MMO will
prob. unseat EVE as the top sci-fi MMO.

The Star Wars world is structured to be a great stand alone game.
The Star Trek world is structured to be a great MMO.

Can you imagine Han Solo telling the wookiee, lets go explore this uncharted region of space...
er, not going to happen.

But Captain Kirk sure would.

[RookActual]

SW imploded for the same reason every single SOE MMO basically implodes...one, they competed within themselves too much, and their all encompassing plan to give everyone the all game pass didn't work. They also try to fix things that aren't broken, and then result in breaking them. SW:G did not fail just because it was Star Wars, it failed because it was only Star Wars in name and because, again, SOE.

[Sevenblade]

SW imploded for the same reason every single SOE game of that era basically implodes...

*cough* SOE came from the foulest pit of Hades? *coughcough*

[RookActual]

*cough* SOE came from the foulest pit of Hades? *coughcough*

Well, SCEA beat the beast back into the pit, apparently, because SOE is no more and SCEA is back at the helm. I don't actually know what that means.

[Syphus]

Star Wars has far better ground action.
Star Trek has far more and better coverage of space action.

/shrug

I like them both but probably lean a little more towards SW than ST :P.

STO may push it in favour of ST if it ever comes out ;)

[Sevenblade]

Well, SCEA beat the beast back into the pit, apparently, because SOE is no more and SCEA is back at the helm. I don't actually know what that means.

Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder what that'll mean for the future, too. Hopefully they can't be any worse :rolleyes:

[Syphus]

Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder what that'll mean for the future, too. Hopefully they can't be any worse :rolleyes:

Well if you ask me SOE may have made some bad decisions and they may not have. It is incredibley hazey what actually happened and the reasons behind the decision making. What I do know is that a lot of the developers were unjustly criticised for the NGE. The decision making process was out of their hands really and into the hands of LA and the higher ups in SOE. A few of the developers even resigned after the NGE accepting the blame.

Effectively the game was raking in substantially less than leading competitors and significantly less than a profit making enterprise. It was making money but not enough to justify the amount of money put into it to start.

However on the bright side the current developer team has done an incredible job turning the game around. The only pit falls are that there is a smaller dev team now and that the servers are old, laggy and not fond of large groups of people :P. Also that some servers have become ghostlands whereas some servers are busier than they were pre NGE.

Content is better than ever though, the combat system is workable and the housing / crafting system is unmatched!


But I do hope STO takes the best aspects of SWG and the dev team takes a few pointers on what to do / not to do ;).

[RookActual]

Well if you ask me SOE may have made some bad decisions and they may not have. It is incredibley hazey what actually happened and the reasons behind the decision making. What I do know is that a lot of the developers were unjustly criticised for the NGE. The decision making process was out of their hands really and into the hands of LA and the higher ups in SOE. A few of the developers even resigned after the NGE accepting the blame.


The fact is, SOE collapsed. Who's to blame is probably something you could only know if you'd signed a nondisclosure agreement. Regardless, nothing under the SOE umbrella can really be qualified as a 'success'. They may still be running, but when I say success I say it in comparison to the top MMOs. I don't base it on whether I personally like the game or not. I've never once had the desire to play WoW, and as much as a few think it 'sucks', if you ask a random person on the street what WoW is, they can probably tell you. The same is not true for any SOE product, and that must be distinctly painful considering they, perhaps one of the largest electronic entertainment publishers in the world had the license to a game in the most recognizable entertainment franchise in the world, in the fastest growing game format in the world. Yet, only MMO players and dedicated Star Wars fans really know about the game. To me, Galaxies will always stand out as the single most profound failure in MMO history.

[Sevenblade]

Well if you ask me SOE may have made some bad decisions and they may not have. It is incredibley hazey what actually happened and the reasons behind the decision making. What I do know is that a lot of the developers were unjustly criticised for the NGE. The decision making process was out of their hands really and into the hands of LA and the higher ups in SOE. A few of the developers even resigned after the NGE accepting the blame.

Effectively the game was raking in substantially less than leading competitors and significantly less than a profit making enterprise. It was making money but not enough to justify the amount of money put into it to start.

However on the bright side the current developer team has done an incredible job turning the game around. The only pit falls are that there is a smaller dev team now and that the servers are old, laggy and not fond of large groups of people :P. Also that some servers have become ghostlands whereas some servers are busier than they were pre NGE.

Content is better than ever though, the combat system is workable and the housing / crafting system is unmatched!


But I do hope STO takes the best aspects of SWG and the dev team takes a few pointers on what to do / not to do ;).

That's funny, and telling, because I wasn't talking about SWG at all, yet I mention SOE, and you immediately assume I'm talking SWG. Then you proceed to tell me how it wasn't really all their fault. If this is true, then why is SWG and the failure of SOE inextricably linked in your mind, as evidenced by the assumption (albeit harmless) that you made here?

I was actually pretty much talking about any game SOE takes over/creates in general. Going back to the reference of Matrix Online, many of the core players loved it until SOE bought up Monolith, and SOE almost immediately proceeded to do a whole combat rehaul. They literally had "Combat 2.O", which ****ed most people off for a while. I won't go into details, especially since some of this stuff is really only apparent to those who played the game, but even the most casual MMO gamer can tell you that whatever SOE gets its hands onto, turns to ****.

[Syphus]

...

Hmmm, I don't think it's true that SOE has collapsed. I think a large part of past failures is really like you said advertising. I live in the UK and I did not see one indication of the game's upcoming release. I had never played an MMO before I played SWG and it took a friend to point it out to me. I should really have been a prime target audience for advertising the game, that it took nearly a year for me to get it is criminal! :P. They have also taken on a few jobs which are very limited in terms of actual development freedom. I can't imagine the painful bureaucracy that must take place between LA and SOE with regards to SWG.

SWG did have a fantastic system and a good setup. The problem was that it took a bit of getting into and that it was a sandbox MMO: You make your own story in a large explorable changing environment. There was very little actual content. Which people like me was perfectly happy with :D. Huge changes alienated so many people and caused dramatic change to the developer team that all new dev's had to learn the game to be able to improve it.

Matrix Online was one of the most unfortunate situations for any game developer. One of the most popular films come out... you get a good deal making an online game. The sequals come out as a huge disappointment :P. /flop.

Vanguard... well I logged onto vanguard PvP servers and lived about as long as it takes to boil a kettle :P. I then played on a PvE for a bit to get a feel and well the game was so buggy it was unbelievable. Pretty much suicide to put a game up for sale THAT buggy. Not much new in the game anyways so it was never really going to do too well. And I curse the names of those that got me to buy it :P.

EQ/EQ2 I never actually played... I do hear that it is going strong though and a large amount of fun. SOE's golden child so to speak and where all their money goes ;)

Upcoming DC universe game should be interesting. It should reach out to enough people (maybe) if it's advertised well enough and if the actual design behind the game is sufficient it could do well. However I doubt any game will ever do as well as WoW and blizzard sure as hell are not infallible, I hear the recent update to talents for WotLK pretty much broke the game for a bit.

[Syphus]

...

Not too funny... I was more taking into context that it was a discussion about SOE in a thread about SW and ST. An unwarranted assumption maybe.

To be honest I don't know too much about the matrix online's combat changes. It may well have been a great game but I hadn't heard too good a things about it and, well, the sequals killed the matrix for me.

As an addicted gamer who one day aspires to be a casual gamer... I personally consider SWG to be a success. 4.5 years worth of subs on 2 accounts from me is too much of my money! :P

[Nimisis]

I like Star Wars & Star Trek - They are both so much fundamentally different in so many ways but yet they both have that awesome sci-fi feel, and an appeal of their own.

To me it seems it would be hard to really say that one is better than the other, there is just too much to compare, they are what they are and trying to explain the difference between them and whats better or not is really a useless jester and waste of time.

Facts are they are both great, both MMO's are being made and coming out - everyone knows how Sony ****ed up SWG, but even so it's still a great game itself...

I am going to play both STO and TOR - and one thing great about the 2 games we are talking about here, is that STO will be out prolly at least 2 full yrs before TOR is even near ready to be released. That gives me "and you guys" plenty of time to play and enjoy everything about STO.

So just like with me and SWG that I have played for 4 years, STO will be a new exciting fresh game for me, and then after a couple years of actually playing STO I will get to play TOR, it's gonna be awesome.

I like what my gaming future has in store and what it has to offer! After playing SWG for 4 yrs and it growing so boring, and the MMO market flooded with games I do not enjoy - I am very happy and pleased to have these games coming out and I am looking forward to them big time...

[RookActual]

Hmmm, I don't think it's true that SOE has collapsed.


An announcement was made a month or so ago that SOE was essentially being restructured under, SCEA. Perhaps not necessarily a 'collapse', but subsidiaries don't really usually belong to other subsidiaries. It's basically a facesaver as best I can tell. It really has collapsed, but to save face, instead of just giving SCEA the responsibilities of SOE, they're just placing SOE beneath SCEA instead of alongside it. In a way, that's almost more insulting. Like a corporate arrest and being placed under custody.

[Sevenblade]

Not too funny... I was more taking into context that it was a discussion about SOE in a thread about SW and ST. An unwarranted assumption maybe.

To be honest I don't know too much about the matrix online's combat changes. It may well have been a great game but I hadn't heard too good a things about it and, well, the sequals killed the matrix for me.

As an addicted gamer who one day aspires to be a casual gamer... I personally consider SWG to be a success. 4.5 years worth of subs on 2 accounts from me is too much of my money! :P

No, I just find it amusing that you're trying to tell me that it wasn't SOE's fault that SWG died, which no one can dispute, yet immediately as we discuss SOE, with only a background of discussing SWG, it immediately reminds you of the failure that is SWG. I'm not laughing at you, so please, don't take offense. I find humor in the fact that people will forever associate SOE instantly with the catastrophe that was SWG.

As for the Matrix Online, don't blame the sequels for bringing it down. The movies came out first, then the game. It's a continuation after the movies to progress the story. Not just a game based on the first movie, and then brought down by the sequels. The main reason you didn't hear many good things about it is because I'm sure you didn't hear much about it all. Monolith simply didn't have the resources to market and advertise it well enough for people to even know it existed, and then when SOE gobbled them up, they didn't really care about it at all. Seriously, I wouldn't have even found out about the game if I hadn't gone through the special features of one of the sequels' DVD's. I'm sure you only heard bad things because what little anyone else heard was mostly people griping about the way SOE treated the franchise/game.

How is it that two potentially massively lucrative IPs were absolutely wasted and trashed so thoroughly when they were based on some of the more popular movies of all time? It's really not a coincidence that both were run by SOE....straight into the ground. :rolleyes:

[Syphus]

An announcement was made a month or so ago that SOE was essentially being restructured under, SCEA. Perhaps not necessarily a 'collapse', but subsidiaries don't really usually belong to other subsidiaries. It's basically a facesaver as best I can tell. It really has collapsed, but to save face, instead of just giving SCEA the responsibilities of SOE, they're just placing SOE beneath SCEA instead of alongside it. In a way, that's almost more insulting. Like a corporate arrest and being placed under custody.

Well it's not as bad as Sony cutting their losses completely :P. New games are still, as far as I am aware, coming out under the name SOE. But I suppose you are right and I am right at the same time. SOE certainly aren't in the best position. Which is definately a shame as there are some talented developers and some good people working for SOE.

[RookActual]

No, I just find it amusing that you're trying to tell me that it wasn't SOE's fault that SWG died, which no one can dispute, yet immediately as we discuss SOE, with only a background of discussing SWG, it immediately reminds you of the failure that is SWG. I'm not laughing at you, so please, don't take offense. I find humor in the fact that people will forever associate SOE instantly with the catastrophe that was SWG.

....

How is it that two potentially massively lucrative IPs were absolutely wasted and trashed so thoroughly when they were based on some of the more popular movies of all time? It's really not a coincidence that both were run by SOE....straight into the ground. :rolleyes:

It's just too coincidental that just about every MMO they've touched has vbasically failed. If EQ is surviving, it's probably surviving on those who are too stubborn to try WoW, or those, who for whatever reason, had gotten tired of WoW.

[Nimisis]

TOR is still in the "Very Earliest" stages of development - this game is not going to be out for a very long time.

STO will have been out for a very long time before TOR is even close to release.

So come on, let us focus on STO in the > Star Trek Online Discussion > area...

[RookActual]

TOR is still in the "Very Earliest" stages of development - this game is not going to be out for a very long time.

STO will have been out for a very long time before TOR is even close to release.

So come on, let us focus on STO in the > Star Trek Online Discussion > area...

In all fairness, you can't make a very debatable statement and then try and usher us out the door. TOR has been in development for nearly two years as they announced they were working on a 'secret MMO' sometime in March two years ago.

Now, I agree with you that we should move back to the subject. Not that we've actually been that offtopic.

[Sevenblade]

It's just too coincidental that just about every MMO they've touched has vbasically failed. If EQ is surviving, it's probably surviving on those who are too stubborn to try WoW, or those, who for whatever reason, had gotten tired of WoW.

Tell me about it. You can't even pinpoint what it is that makes them fail. It's just like a curse that as soon as they touch SOE's hands, any MMO will die a slow, horrible death. Maybe it's the sheer apathetic attitude SOE has towards every single product of theirs. I know that's what crippled MxO (I'm going to refer to it as crippled from now on, because it's not dying nor shrinking, unlike SWG, but it will almost never ever gain any fresh blood beyond the core gamers who stick with it.). SOE acquired it, messed with major parts of the game, and then just...forgot about it. No attempts to branch out, advertise, get the word out and attract new people. Just let us do our thing and hope the people who are already there will be happy with the devs. Which I have to say, were wonderful people, and were probably the reason the game is still going. MxO is a very tight knit, nice community. They practically run themselves, seeing as how SOE won't do it.

[Syphus]

...

Hehe don't worry I havent taken offense... was just explaining my assumption was more due to context than my personal opinions on SWG. I am perfectly happy with my 2 accounts currently running :). Although if a worthy MMO does come out I will drop it down to 1 account due to financial and time reasons.

I honestly don't think of SWG as a catastrophe... although I'm sure a lot of other people do. More due to principle and closed mindedness (Not that I can blame them at all - only reason I stuck it out was there were people I didn't want to lose touch with.)

I think you're probably right about matrix.... I also fully concede that the person who told me it was pants was the one who told me that vanguard was going to be awesome :o.

One thing I can't help but think about back in the day of SWG that the people that claimed to be happy with the systems pre NGE... were not at all. It's only in hindsight. The grass is always greener on the other side sort of thing.

[Sevenblade]

TOR is still in the "Very Earliest" stages of development - this game is not going to be out for a very long time.

STO will have been out for a very long time before TOR is even close to release.

So come on, let us focus on STO in the > Star Trek Online Discussion > area...

I agree with Rook. It's not like were not discussing this in the proper area of the boards, and we've really stayed more on topic than you'd think. This is discussing the potential of SW: TOR coming out and potentially providing competition for ST:O. I don't see what's wrong with that. Especially since we have very little idea of the status of TOR, but it's fairly safe to assume that it's already two years into production, which is very different than your statement of "very earliest stages of development".

[Syphus]

In all fairness, you can't make a very debatable statement and then try and usher us out the door. TOR has been in development for nearly two years as they announced they were working on a 'secret MMO' sometime in March two years ago.

Now, I agree with you that we should move back to the subject. Not that we've actually been that offtopic.

Well the problem with TOR is that there is very limited discernable progress over those 2 years, for me. Either it's all concept or they have held back on a lot of information. The small amount they have let out looks like it has potential... but lacking in many ways.

Early days for sure and I really don't think they will be in a state of releasing a worthy SW game for sometime.

Since MMO critics are among the worst they'd best do a good job :P. Else I will be upset we havent seen KOTOR 3 and 4 come out in the time they had been developing TOR ;).


Also with regards to relavency... I admit this probably isnt the best forum for this since it is STO discussion. However I like the discussion... is nice to just chat about MMO's past and present :) and who knows some cryptic CR / devs may have a browse and take notes on what not to do :P

[RookActual]

Well the problem with TOR is that there is very limited discernable progress over those 2 years, for me. Either it's all concept or they have held back on a lot of information. The small amount they have let out looks like it has potential... but lacking in many ways.


One thing I've learned about companies in the entertainment industry is that I haven't learned anything about them. They're pretty well unpredictable, and they all guard their secrets in different ways. Pretty much th only thing you can really rely on is that the game is going to probably cost the same as most every other game is, and that it just may launch being named what the company said it would be.

:D;)

[Syphus]

...

That is very true. And I havent counted TOR out completely, however I am not going to set my hopes on it. And I am actually more looking forward to STO than TOR. Which is surprising since I am more of a SW fan than ST. But I do still like ST.... and if they release romulans promptly I'm sure I will be happy enough :P.

However I just have this feeling about TOR that it will be disapointing... especially after what they showed yesterday. If I am wrong then yay pleasant surprises are awesome! If I were expecting a great game and was wrong I'd be annoyed :P

[RookActual]

That is very true. And I havent counted TOR out completely, however I am not going to set my hopes on it. And I am actually more looking forward to STO than TOR. Which is surprising since I am more of a SW fan than ST. But I do still like ST.... and if they release romulans promptly I'm sure I will be happy enough :P.


I absolutely agree with this. I love SW...but more anxious for STO than TOR by far.

[Sevenblade]

Well the problem with TOR is that there is very limited discernable progress over those 2 years, for me. Either it's all concept or they have held back on a lot of information. The small amount they have let out looks like it has potential... but lacking in many ways.

Early days for sure and I really don't think they will be in a state of releasing a worthy SW game for sometime.

Since MMO critics are among the worst they'd best do a good job :P. Else I will be upset we havent seen KOTOR 3 and 4 come out in the time they had been developing TOR ;).


Also with regards to relavency... I admit this probably isnt the best forum for this since it is STO discussion. However I like the discussion... is nice to just chat about MMO's past and present :) and who knows some cryptic CR / devs may have a browse and take notes on what not to do :P

Don't forget that if you're comparing ST:O to SW: TOR, you really can't judge the amount of development of each game by info releases alone. For starting on such short notice, and with a rushed production schedule for an MMO, they've given us a surprisingly large amount of pre-release info. Especially when you compare that to how much Perpetual hid from us. They already had major features of the game up and running, and for the most part, it looked like they might have even been alpha testing it. TOR could be done for all we know, and they're just waiting to release it.

As for the discussion itself, I think it's actually very relevant to ST:O. Just because we happen to be discussing other MMO's and companies as well doesn't mean it's off topic for the boards. I brought up other MMO's like MxO to show the incompetence of SOE, which was relevant as they ran SWG, which was part of the OP as comparing the Star Trek franchise to having only one MMO, while Star Wars has two, supposedly. As these provide potential competition to ST:O, I feel that we're within our rights to discuss this here, as long as we remain on that topic, and don't deviate too far into just talking about other MMO's.

[Sevenblade]

I absolutely agree with this. I love SW...but more anxious for STO than TOR by far.

You can count me in that group, too :D

[Syphus]

...

Not really comparing STO to TOR in terms of development. Just my personal opinion on what has been shown to us yesterday. I fully expect there is a lot hidden, I suppose it's more of a "I have a bad feeling about this" moment. I have a number of doubts about what's coming... and am almost dreading future updates about the game.

To be honest after what was shown and what happened with SWG... I expect TOR to be attempting to bridge the gap between PC and Console MMO. Which I am pretty opposed to.

[vp21ct]

Think you of the very nature of these two franchises. When it gets down to the nitty gritty of it, star trek is a space opera, and star wars is a space epic. In literary terms, that means that the nature of each one is skewed. In Star Wars, what has happened in our past and what might happen in our future is irrelevant, what is important is telling a huge story, one that looks more like a greek epic, or old fairy tale, than most science fiction does. Star Trek, on the other hand, is space opera at its finest. It does the best job it can to obey the laws of phisics, but knows that it can bend them slightly for the story.

Once you realize that the two are nothing alike, and why they are nothing alike, than its easy to see why star wars gets 2 mmos while star trek will only be getting 1. Star Wars lends itself to the media because it is no different, at its heart, than world of warcraft, or LoTR. Star Trek, however, must bend the media to fit its feel and style, and as such we have had to make some attempts at doing it right. I feel verry confident that we will be getting it right this time.


Also, i would count star wars galaxys as a 0 so it is only 1-1.

[Sevenblade]

Not really comparing STO to TOR in terms of development. Just my personal opinion on what has been shown to us yesterday. I fully expect there is a lot hidden, I suppose it's more of a "I have a bad feeling about this" moment. I have a number of doubts about what's coming... and am almost dreading future updates about the game.

To be honest after what was shown and what happened with SWG... I expect TOR to be attempting to bridge the gap between PC and Console MMO. Which I am pretty opposed to.

Well, don't forget that ST:O is planned for release on console, too, with the likelihood being for Xbox 360.

[vp21ct]

To be honest after what was shown and what happened with SWG... I expect TOR to be attempting to bridge the gap between PC and Console MMO. Which I am pretty opposed to.

Myself and another had this debate, and i was on your side. Ill summarize and say that the other guy won, but admited that PCs are still preferable. Suffice it to say, the experience will be interesting.

[Sevenblade]

Also, i would count star wars galaxys as a 0 so it is only 1-1.

I can agree with that part, at least. And don't forget, quantity does not imply quality. Finally getting one really good Star Trek game would trump all the half-assed Star Wars games they could ever make, IMO.

[RookActual]

Well, don't forget that ST:O is planned for release on console, too, with the likelihood being for Xbox 360.

I wouldn't say planned so much as they said they could port it to console.

[Sevenblade]

I wouldn't say planned so much as they said they could port it to console.

Heh, yeah, but then who doesn't say that nowadays? It's all the marketing. It's really probably not all that hard technologically to port games over to different consoles or to go from PC to a console. The legalities and licensing, though, that's the real hassle. Most companies won't port over to something (usually meaning they pay the company they're porting to) unless they know it'll be a financial success.

[RookActual]

Heh, yeah, but then who doesn't say that nowadays? It's all the marketing. It's really probably not all that hard technologically to port games over to different consoles or to go from PC to a console. The legalities and licensing, though, that's the real hassle. Most companies won't port over to something (usually meaning they pay the company they're porting to) unless they know it'll be a financial success.

Well, I think Im definitely not among a minority when I say I'm apprehensive about the connotations for this game if it can be ported to a console easily. Reasonable fear or not, I don't know.

[Syphus]

...

True... it's pretty unknown whether it can be done well or not.

But I have played too many console games ported for PC and the interface and controls have been horrible. Additionally they are very different systems and as an engineer as soon as you design something for multiple purposes it becomes much more complex and much easier to make mistakes.

I suppose in some way's I am just stubborn and don't want to move on. But it's uncharted territory and too much of a chance of ruining a good thing, in my opinion. Personally if you were to make the game run on average spec PC's I think you would get far more people subscribing than making it available on consoles too.

I know very few people who own a console, have broadband and do not have a computer they would be capable of playing games on.

[Sevenblade]

Well, I think Im definitely not among a minority when I say I'm apprehensive about the connotations for this game if it can be ported to a console easily. Reasonable fear or not, I don't know.

Well, I don't think it'll be that easy, where you just have to match up PC and console controls, but I don't think it'll be excessively hard, either. Hell, consoles are pretty much overglorified computers that are devoted to gaming, anyways.

[CaptainQuirk]

The fact is, SOE collapsed. Who's to blame is probably something you could only know if you'd signed a nondisclosure agreement. Regardless, nothing under the SOE umbrella can really be qualified as a 'success'. They may still be running, but when I say success I say it in comparison to the top MMOs. I don't base it on whether I personally like the game or not.

You cannot compare one MMO with another. The reason is that, even the ones made by the same people are like apples and oranges.

What went wrong with SWG was in fact due to SOE/LEC holding up SWG next to WoW's subscriber base and deciding that SWG needed to be like WoW in order to compete.

The problem is, they should not have attempted to compete with WoW or any other MMO at all. They should have stuck to their original plan. They also should not have put all that money and energy into repeatedly redesigning the game every chance they got. Had they just added Star Wars content and fixed the bugs people went out of their way to catalog for them, then there would have been no need for a CU and there certainly wouldn't have been a need for a NGE.

World of Warcraft is the ONLY subscription-based MMO that has so many subscribers. It's not necessarily because the game is better than all the others. Blizzard simply made it available to the widest audience as possible, and dedicated themselves to product quality and integrity... As gameplay goes, I found WoW to be fun and easy to get into. But deceptively so. You see, once I hit about level 15, I started to feel the repetitiveness of its content. And with no connection to the lore of the gameworld, it became boring to me, so I quit. I've been back a couple of times, but that was usually because I had friends wanting to give it a try. And once they decided that they didn't like it, I played until my current subscription ran out and was not tempted to renew.

Star Wars Galaxies, on the other hand, even though it is no longer the game that it was before the Hologrind, which I never would have left at all had they only fixed the bugs and added content, has had me coming back even though I have sworn every time I have quit that I would not be back. Why? I am a Star Wars fan. And every time the dev team changes, new people come with new ideas, so my hope for them making it finally into a Star Wars game is revived. Because SWG has never capitolized on the very audience that is so dedicated to the subject matter upon which it was based. In the beginning, durring its pre-alpha development discussion on the forums, the majority of the posters were Star Wars fans. And Raph Koster's game systems were wrapped around Star Wars. But the game was launched too early, and a lot of the Star Warsy content was delayed. Trouble was, that content was the selling point of the Star Wars fans in the audience, who had no mind to continue paying for something that didn't deliver on its promises.

And the months that followed release had the developers so tied up on completing the systems that were delayed that live game bugs and much desired Star Wars content were being neglected. Not to mention the fact that a blunder on the marketing side in which the descriptive text on the back of the box indicated that Jedi was an immediately playable profession caused a customer service nightmare. But rather than issuing an apology for an inacurate description, they made the devs redesign it so that the game would tell the players what professions they needed to master to unlock the force sensitive slot. And when the delayed systems made it in, of course, they were loaded with bugs, on top of the bugs that already existed. And also, because the game was now telling players how to unlock their force sensitive slot, people stopped playing the professions they chose because they wanted to and started playing professions because some little cube told them to. AFK activity went through the roof as players who preferred combat were being forced to play noncombat professions as part of their hologrind to Jedi. And the crafting community suffered because those who preferred crafting were forced to do combat professions. These people didn't care about their profession. To them it was just a means to an end, and they just ground their way through it. The symbiotic relationship that was integral to the original design was destroyed.

By now, Raph Koster had been promoted out of SWG design and moved to SOE's west coast offices. And the ones who knew his mind were reassigned to other areas, leaving the devs who came in to fill their shoes ignorant of whatever design goals their predecessors had. The imbalance caused by the Hologrind resulted in a perceived need for a combat upgrade, which was done, but layered on top of the pre-existing bugs which players had been begging to have fixed since LAUNCH. The CU had very little affect on players who had already mastered their preferred professions, but for those on the lower to midrange rungs of progression discovered that weapons and armor that they had already earned certifications to use ware redistributed, typically to levels that were MIUCH higher and they were relegated down to lower-end stuff. So weeks (and for some, months) of progress was removed. The reaction time of hostile mobs was adjusted so that the instant they detected you, they would attack. And for those using dial-up which caused the dots on the radar to load in slow, you could run right into the midst of extremely difficult mobs, get knocked off your swoop and incapacitated in one blow, then when you woke up, the mobs would instantly incap you again. and on the third revival, they would isntantly KILL you. Each time there was no chance to react.

These things contributed to the first mass-exodus from SWG.

Reeling from the loss of revenue from all those canceled subscriptions, rather than reverting to the system that existed before and offering a free month to those who had quit, they decided that the game needed to be revamped yet again... But this time, SOE and LEC's eyes were on World of Warcraft. So what did they do? Half of the SWG dev team was assigned the task of creating the NGE, while the other half was working on completing the third expansion, built around the CU system. The expansion was released, and two weeks after, the NGE, which ripped out most of the game's content and rendered the stuff offered by the expansion useless. It wasn't until class action lawsuits were threatened that SOE refunded the money for the now useless expansions. In effect, SOE's left hand did not know what its right hand was doing.

But the game was no longer anything like what most of the subscribers bought into it for, so they left.

We've been through THREE dev teams since then, and it took them three years to actually realize that hey, maybe adding content would be good. But the new philosophy concerning content is, "Let's see how we can turn this into yet another grindfest. Leveling is a grind. the Galactic Civil War is a grind. Collections are a grind. Heroic encounters are a grind. Even their Halloween event is a grind.

I am sick to death of grind. And I am not by myself.

Hey, Cryptic... Pay attention to this. Stick to your design plans for STO, and don't waver from them. Make them work. If changes have to be made, do them gradually. Don't just dump sweeping changes on your player base. And please, do not center this game around grinding. And whatever you add to the game, make sure that it does not take from what's already there...

[ravenkind2]

Well I don't really know if it's 2-1. More like -1 - 0. TOR and STO aren't out yet so you can't count them, and who knows STO might be out first. Besides the Devs at SOE saw fit to completely destroy SWG that's why it's -1.

[J.L.Picard]

personally star wars 4,5&6 were truly brilliant anything after taht was pure crap

[Syphus]

We've been through THREE dev teams since then, and it took them three years to actually realize that hey, maybe adding content would be good. But the new philosophy concerning content is, "Let's see how we can turn this into yet another grindfest. Leveling is a grind. the Galactic Civil War is a grind. Collections are a grind. Heroic encounters are a grind. Even their Halloween event is a grind.

I am sick to death of grind. And I am not by myself.



Hmmm I'm not sure I understand... you say that it took three years to start addign content... but there was very little content available in the pre CU game. Most of the additional content came in the CU era. Also there were a lot of problems with the pre CU and the CU game.

It all depends on what you are playing the game for as to whether the game is a grind or not... e.g. pre NGE I did a class every other week. It wasn't a grind to me because I enjoyed trying all the new abilities out and then working out potential builds from those classes. I then did a stint as a BH and actively crafted also not a grind because although my end target was a full suit of RIS with health mods and a set of useful stacking SEA's I enjoyed getting there.

Similarly the new Heroic encounters, I want the jewelry but I also enjoy the instances themselves... Although I never do PuG's. Just fun to jump in vent and have a laugh with the guild whilst shooting badies ;). GCW is a bit rediculous; the buffs are too strong and the ranks too tough. Means base busters easily get general and keep the rank then have a huge advantage over others. Also if you have to go away for a few months at a time, as I often do, you lose everything. So I do agree there.

Collections... well you don't have to do that. I think some of them are fun, the trick is not to burn out doing it.

Halloween it's an amusing concept and hey it's only for funky decorations mainly ;).


As for grinding... there is one grind that is the worst of them all. The blackscales. I expect I've spent 5x the time it took to hologrind + village grind a jedi, one shot killing ships at a static spawn. Now that get's old! :P And I've been doing that since about 6 months after ROTW :P.

[Syphus]

personally star wars 4,5&6 were truly brilliant anything after taht was pure crap

What's important to note in the prequal films:

Liam Neeson is awesome.

The political maneuvering of a senator of a small time world to become the emperor of a galactic empire is truly masterful. How he plays every side against the other... funds a private army. He even had large stakes in the companies which built the ships and equipment for the war machine. He basically sucked all the power and wealth out of the republic (A government that stood for millenia) into his own pocket in a matter of decades. And then assumed complete control of it and it's territories with everyone cheering him on.

He createw the most loyal troops of all time and the most unpredictable, the jedi had no chance of seeing order 66 coming because their assassins were people they counted on day in and day out, were friends with and actually cared about.

Now there are definately things that are poor about the films: Both anakins, jar jar, some special effects and the love story in ep 2.

The prequals amidst everything else is really, if you ask me, the story of palpatine and the birth of an empire.

[Alekks]

A good thing about all this is if you like both IPs, like I and many others do, and if both STO and SW:TOR turn out to be excellent games, it will be a virtual gaming nirvana for those folks.

I have confidence Cryptic has the will to make STO be every bit as good as it can be. Likewise, I have full confidence that BioWare will make certain their first endeavor into the MMO market will be a resounding success.

Because of this, I don't look at the two games as an "either or" scenario. I will be enjoying both games simultaneously, but to the exclusion of all other MMOs that may be out in tha timeframe.

Coming home from work and having a choice of heading into the Neutral Zone and tangling with the Klingons or heading to a planet to conduct Jedi business or hunt a mark as a Bounty Hunter is a nice choice to have. :)

[marscentral]

A good thing about all this is if you like both IPs, like I and many others do, and if both STO and SW:TOR turn out to be excellent games, it will be a virtual gaming nirvana for those folks.


It's not a good thing. Add in Champions and DCU Online and I won't be going outside again after they're released.

[Decius]

It's not a good thing. Add in Champions and DCU Online and I won't be going outside again after they're released.

Haha, ya.

I have confidence that STO will be good, if the other one is good too, more power to it. I like both, so it doesn't really matter. :)

[DanSeale]

So, Star Wars gets 2 MMO's before Star Trek even has one? Granted that The Old Republic has not come out yet, this is rediculous. Star Trek is so much better than Star Wars in every way I can think of (except for lightsaber fights and fast paced space ship battles, but I refuse to allow people to call Star Wars better than Star Trek simply because it is more action packed. Have our entertainment forms degenerated to something so shallow? But all of this ranting is neither here nor there).

I guess I am just using this point to emphasize my difficulty in sitting here and waiting another year or so to play Star Trek Online. It is really almost painful...strike that, it is just plain painful. Star Trek had several televison shows and films before Star Wars was even on its prequels. What took Star Trek Online so long?

Probably Paramont Pictures. I know there was some nasty stuff with litigation with SFC-3 and the last copies were actually pulled off the shelf (as I understand it)..

At any rate the dealys really are not the fault of anyone in this development team. I'm certain that there were a lot of legal hoops for them to jump through just to get to the beginning stages of development. (And its expensive).

I'm just glad that these folks have decided to take the project. I know it's time comsumming and frequently the programming is easier said than done. I personally don't take for granted the success of a game that works well by the time it reaches the market. Stop and think about the large number of those that don't.

So I guess what I'm saying is ... yeah I would love to see this out very soon. BUT ... ** sigh ** it takes time to get a really good game done right !

Should a representative of the DEV team actually read this .. Hats off to ya ! All my hopes for the future and a much anticipated success for STO.

[Sindahive]

SWG is/was terrible. It's still too early for KOTR. I hated City of Heroes/Villains, but I'm still going to give Champions and STO a try.

[Fluxion]

I've never understood the need many people seem to have say Star Trek is better than Star Wars or the reverse. It's not like you have to choose between the two of them. They can co-exist. I love them both, for different reasons. They don't need to compete. :)

That being said, I think the SW property can move faster on things because it's pretty much run by one guy. He calls all the shots. ST, on the other hand, is run by a mega-corporation due to the untimely death of Roddenberry. Things run by committee are rarely efficient and take a lot longer to change directions it seems.

I'm happy both are being made. Let's hope that STO and SWtOR turn out a lot better than poor SWG. :rolleyes:

[RookActual]

You cannot compare one MMO with another. The reason is that, even the ones made by the same people are like apples and oranges.

Actually I can compare one MMO to another. So I did. Comparisons are necessary, at times, to illustrate a point, and no matter how different you may think one MMORPG is from another, they are both games from a specific genre and they all should meet specific requirements and are targetted at overlapping demographics. It seems most of the forum members here have participated in more than one MMO, excluded their desired participation in this one. Comparisons are made to aide the understanding, and I think everyone, aside from you, may have understood my point. Whether you agree with point or not is a separate issue, but how I delivered it was completely acceptable.

[RookActual]

What's important to note.

Please don't quote JL Picard. :D A lot of us have him on ignore because his contributions, 9/10 times are just to call something 'crap'. When you quote him, you exceed the capabilities of the otherwise wonderful function. I see, again, he's unable to post something in a mature or constructive manner.

[RookActual]

That being said, I think the SW property can move faster on things because it's pretty much run by one guy. He calls all the shots. ST, on the other hand, is run by a mega-corporation due to the untimely death of Roddenberry. Things run by committee are rarely efficient and take a lot longer to change directions it seems.


Owning your own ideas is pretty profitable.

God, I shoulda used the multiquote function.

[Alekks]

It's not a good thing. Add in Champions and DCU Online and I won't be going outside again after they're released.

You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you get all pasty-skinned from lack of sunshine :)

Playing MMOs is my temporary escape from RL...

Golf is my escape from playing MMOs and gets me back into the sunshine (no pasty skin for me :D)

There is no escape from golf...................once you've been bitten, you're hooked.

[marscentral]

You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you get all pasty-skinned from lack of sunshine :)


If the English weather next year is like this year means I'll probably get more of a tan indoors from the computer screen :eek:.

[hinaito]

hmmm... in my opinion, the score should be Star Wars: 1 and Star Trek: 1. why? because galaxies wasn't that great an mmo. and i foresee SWTOR being the far better mmo. and Star Trek is coming out with this awesome mmo from Cryptic. i like both star trek and star wars... i like star wars because of the action and technology, and star trek because of the ideals and technology.