PLEASE! Do not make STO like CoX!

[Jaenus]

Hello Devs:

When I found out that Cryptic was the company in charge of developing I got a wave of relief, then a wave of panic hit me. At first I thought, "Oh nice, Cryptic's other big games (City of Heroes and City of Villains) had some decent role-playing support. There was the Pocket D, but that was about it. Still, better than nothing right?" Then I remembered City of X's (X as in either or) PVP system and just how HORRIBLE it was, then I recalled CoX's mission system and how horrible that was too!

For those of you who haven't played CoX, don't. It's a decent game, but let me give you the over all feel. PVP is all instanced. There is no world PVP, period. All PVP in said instance is level controlled and restricted, people of lower level are moved up to the "average level" and everyone above it is moved down. Forget all your hard work (or, on the other than, here, have some levels that you didn't earn.)

Missions. What a joke. Missions in CoX are all done in "doors", IE: instances. There are NO MISSIONS DONE IN WORLD. If there is, it's like 1% and I never personally saw any or did any. There's a couple world bosses you fight but that's it.

The world itself is fairly alive, there are some NPCs around and a lot of mobs wandering, but these mobs are rarely ever used for missions, they're just there to annoy you and slow you down (and for achievements. Kill 5,000 X!"

-------------
SOLUTION
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First and foremost keep the support you have for role-players and double it. IMO WoW has more support for RPers than CoX does, and that's not much. Add off duty clothes, have a way you can dock your ship and walk around at a space station or planet.

PVP. Sticking true to ST lore, the galaxy is a dangerous place. Take a que from WoW, have some areas (like Earth, etc) safe for newer players, but as they leave, have them enter contested zones, zone which allow PVP. You cannot allow babysitting in this game like you have in CoX, this galaxy is dangerous and past a certain point, players should always be attackable by others. At the very least have a "canon" server and then have a PVE server. Instanced PVP is ok, but ensure you have WORLD PVP too. Again, my gripe with COX is that you treated it like a single player game. Everything I did was behind closed doors, alone or with my small team. Can you say boring?

Missions / Instances. I touched on it. Follow WoW's footsteps. Have MOST if not all of your missions in world. Then have your longer, bigger dungeons or encounters instanced. Heck I wouldnt even be opposed to NOT having anything instanced, but I understand the need sometimes, but the way CoX was designed is just over-the-top instancing and needs to go. Thats why I quit CoX, I felt like I was playing a single player game.

Take a page from WARHAMMER. With over 750,000 subscribers, WORLD PVP (and some instanced PVP) is important! Think about including some of "PUBLIC QUEST" system. People want to remember theyre in a MMO with OTHER PEOPLE!

Take a page from WOW. Having a lot of support for the RP community (which is usually a pretty dedicated community if they get settled) is important! Have places for people to rest their head from ship to ship combat. Have your missions outside, in the world. Let people see and feel like theyre part of a MMO, not a single player game. Have dungeons/encounters if possible in world too, or at least some.

Take a page from EVE. The biggest gripe has always been that people feel "disconnected" from their character. You never see your character, always just your ship. People want to feel connected, so let them! Let there be a way for players to exit their ship, walk around, sit at a bar (important for RPers) or even have their own house or home where they can decorate it with stuff they found (VERY important and very cool!). It all helps players feel a sense of community, and community is what keeps people playing.

Take a page or two from the lore. The ST world isn't safe, don't make it safe. People know it's dangerous and know that they need to form fleets if they want to survive, don't baby anyone, and keep the safe zones to a minimum, and even then:

Take a page from PlanetSide. No place is ever safe for long. Have a system of links and connections. EARTH -> MARS -> SATURN. If the Romulans want to attack with a 1000 ships, let them attack Saturn first before they can attack Earth. Then Mars, and lastly Earth. Of course this would give the Feds time to come back to Earth and defend, or something like that. Warhammer is doing something similar, so should STO.

WHY TAKE PAGES FROM OTHER MMOS?

Simple. Because other MMOs are tried and tested. We know what we want, we know what we hate, and being bottled up in instances is something MOST of us hate.

[USS_Parallax]

CoX is a good game. 2nd or 3rd best MMO. BEST Customization.

However I generally agree (with the problems, not really the solutions). The stuff it used just shouldn't be used anymore. The Mission system was always kind of bad. The PvP is iffy. Plus the game has in general aged and I'd like to see a game get away from the classicly overused MMO style of gameplay used in 90% of them.

Still, it's one of the better MMOs out there but at this point I'm so sick of all MMOs it doesn't matter. I need something different.

[Jaenus]

I read a bit more and I'm pleased to see that you are able to walk around in character, but how about this!

Walking around on a planet is fun, but better still if you could beam yourself aboard someone's ship (a friendly ship or even enemy) and visit them there, go into their office, etc.

Example: A fleet of 10 ships or so gather, all the captains beam aboard the Admirals ship and everyone meets up in the Admiral's office.

[LordDave]

Someone hasn't been reading the forum.
Or the FAQ
Or watched the videos.
Or the "ask Cryptic"..

First off, CoX had missions outdoors. Remmeber the "Kill x bad guys"? Yeah, not indoors. All the "Kill leader x" was indoors, but not the more generic ones.

Secondly:
PVP is zoned in STO. The neutral zone specifically will be PVP area. No one knows how it'll be setup, but I'm guessing that once you go in, it's a FFA.

Third:
Planets are instanced. Space stations (inside for missions) are probably instanced too. Space is not.

Fourth:
You can leave your ship. You have a crew. You can board enemy ships. You can team up with other captains on away missions or just show off the inside of your ship to them.

Fifth:
Planet taking will be done via neutral planets in the neutral zone. Either by force or by diplomacy. New aliens can also be discovered and convinced to join your faction, giving you access to new crew members who may give nice bonuses.

[Jaenus]

CoX is a good game. 2nd or 3rd best MMO. BEST Customization.

However I generally agree (with the problems, not really the solutions). The stuff it used just shouldn't be used anymore. The Mission system was always kind of bad. The PvP is iffy. Plus the game has in general aged and I'd like to see a game get away from the classicly overused MMO style of gameplay used in 90% of them.

Still, it's one of the better MMOs out there but at this point I'm so sick of all MMOs it doesn't matter. I need something different.

Amen to that.

I played WARHAMMER when it came out and I just couldn't do the whole "You are a level 1 scumy noob. Kill a million things and do a million quests to finally become a worth-while level 40!" Like WoW, WAR's system of leveling (as well as many others, CoX included) is just out dated IMO. It lacks vision.

A game ahead of it's time was SWG, and even PlanetSide. Both games had the skill system. In PlanetSide, even a brand new player could skill kill a veteran, but in no other game is that really viable. In SWG you chose what you wanted to be and then you leveled up that skill until you hit master. If you got bored with that then you dropped it and learned something else. You kept the same name, always very nice!

[Jaenus]

Someone hasn't been reading the forum.
Or the FAQ
Or watched the videos.
Or the "ask Cryptic"..


You're 100% right Dave, and that's partially my fault, but hear me out. I've followed so many games in the past and read these FAQs and these DEV interviews and I get all hyped up, but then the product that comes out is either opposite of what they said or far from what they said. Forgive me for being a bit jaded and resorting to putting down my feelings before I read their documentation.

I'm definitely glad to see that they're already thinking of having it turn out different.

The last time I read up on STO, it was being canceled and the idea was sold to an undisclosed company, but I don't recall if Cryptic was the original company or if they bought the idea.

[Jaenus]

I am a bit confused on the idea:

A: There will not be separate servers for PvP and PvE rulesets. Open PvP will be restricted to designated sectors of space (far-off reaches of unclaimed territory). Consensual PvP and competitive PvE will occur between the realm borders (the Neutral Zone), where players will be competing over territory and resources with the option to PvP.

So there will just be one server type, ok. (If they took an idea from EVE, have just one server period!)

Open PVP will be restricted to far space, gotcha.

Consensual PVP will occur within the neutral zone. So basically if someone wants to fly in the neutral zone and NOT be attacked, they don't have to flag themselves for PVP. Eh, sounds carebear to me, but I understand, it is neutral, not lawless...so meh.

I hope in the open pvp area there is a lot to gain from holding that area/planet for your fleet, otherwise the only reason to go there would be simply PVP (which sometimes is fine too)

[ParkerHayden]

Someone hasn't been reading the forum.
Or the FAQ
Or watched the videos.
Or the "ask Cryptic"..

First off, CoX had missions outdoors. Remmeber the "Kill x bad guys"? Yeah, not indoors. All the "Kill leader x" was indoors, but not the more generic ones.

Secondly:
PVP is zoned in STO. The neutral zone specifically will be PVP area. No one knows how it'll be setup, but I'm guessing that once you go in, it's a FFA.

Third:
Planets are instanced. Space stations (inside for missions) are probably instanced too. Space is not.

Fourth:
You can leave your ship. You have a crew. You can board enemy ships. You can team up with other captains on away missions or just show off the inside of your ship to them.

Fifth:
Planet taking will be done via neutral planets in the neutral zone. Either by force or by diplomacy. New aliens can also be discovered and convinced to join your faction, giving you access to new crew members who may give nice bonuses.
Exactly.

And, don't worry, starbases will be major public areas. They're like cities in MMOs, BUT IN SPACE!!!! WOO!

The last time I read up on STO, it was being canceled and the idea was sold to an undisclosed company, but I don't recall if Cryptic was the original company or if they bought the idea.
Perpetual was the original company.

[JMD10222]

I liked COH/COV, and it was a good game for its time. They were in new territory as MMO's go and I think they did a great job, was it perfect, no but good. Read the F&Q and the ask Cryptic interviews, and I think you will see that they to have changed with times and plan to give us a great game.;)

[Magnuson]

I completely disagree with your statement on the CoX games, I think they are great. Like many posters have said, easily in the top 3 or top 2 MMO's out there. Sure it has it's flaws, but 4 years and 12 major updates have added a ton of content and fixed most of, it not all of the early problems the game had. Sure it's not the "deepest" game around, but that's actually what I love about it, when I only have 20-30 minutes to play and I can still get plenty accomplished in that game, that's a great thing to me. Whereas in a game like WoW it might take me 40 minutes just to travel to my next quest.

CoX is not like every other MMO out there, but that's what makes it unique. I hope that Cryptic brings the same level of cusomization, ease of play and story telling they brought to the CoX franchise.

[Jaenus]

I completely disagree with your statement on the CoX games, I think they are great. Like many posters have said, easily in the top 3 or top 2 MMO's out there. Sure it has it's flaws, but 4 years and 12 major updates have added a ton of content and fixed most of, it not all of the early problems the game had. Sure it's not the "deepest" game around, but that's actually what I love about it, when I only have 20-30 minutes to play and I can still get plenty accomplished in that game, that's a great thing to me. Whereas in a game like WoW it might take me 40 minutes just to travel to my next quest.

CoX is not like every other MMO out there, but that's what makes it unique. I hope that Cryptic brings the same level of cusomization, ease of play and story telling they brought to the CoX franchise.

Coming from someone with a picture of a superhuman I can understand that you'd disagree, heh. They definately have their up sides, and I said that, but they have quite a few downsides, and even on the unofficial RP server, RP was always hard to find.

I haven't played in quite some time, I'll give ya that, if they changed it, super! But my goal here is help STO, not insult COX. :D As for the 20-30 minute aspect, yes, I sure did like PlanetSide for that! Other MMOs take a bit longer to get into the action, but 40 minutes for travel time? I think the longest I've ever flown from top to bottom was like 15 minutes, but still a long time (even if 40 is exaggerating some).

And Top 2 or 3? Meh, we'll have to disagree on that. Top 2 or 3 in terms of customizing your character, Top 1 IMO, COX had a great customizing aspect to it, I hope characters in STO have that too!

[minago]

A game ahead of it's time was Ultima Online,

fix't that for ya :)

[ravenkind2]

As much as I enjoyed CoH/CoV I agree that there were some flaws with the system. But we also have to remember that MMOs and tech have progressed a lot since then so there shouldn't have to be instanced quests to help keep the server from exploding. I never played the PvP system so I can't comment on that. I did hear it wasn't the greatest thing though, so at least they've had experience doing PvP and this should be an improvement.

[Jaenus]

fix't that for ya :)

I didn't think anyone recalled UO! We're dating ourselves...

As much as I enjoyed CoH/CoV I agree that there were some flaws with the system. But we also have to remember that MMOs and tech have progressed a lot since then so there shouldn't have to be instanced quests to help keep the server from exploding. I never played the PvP system so I can't comment on that. I did hear it wasn't the greatest thing though, so at least they've had experience doing PvP and this should be an improvement.

I agree with you, though with the changing of the technology and the introduction with new games the CoX series never really changed, maybe it was just too deep an issue to change? Meh, either way I spoke before I read the FAQ (mostly because I never believe the FAQ). Most of my wants have been discussed, so I hope that they deliver, sounds like a great game.

PS: I read there will be humans and klingons only...no romulans? O.O Yet there is a fleet aimed towards Romulans? Is that FAQ old?

[Magnuson]

I personally like the PVP in CoX, it was straight forward. Some of the other MMO's I've played the PVP tends to get a little complicated, options are always a good thing, but I think sometimes having too many can be a distraction and complicates gameplay.

As for the travel time in some MMO's, specifically WOW, there has literally been times where I have had to spend 40minutes going from one quest to another. I didn't have all the flight lines available to me so I just had to hoof it, and without a mount. I'm not trying to bash on WoW I'm just saying the ease of travel in any MMO is a big deal to me personally. It's boring and takes you out of the game if you have to spent 15 minutes just running/flying/warping/etc across the world map.

Again, if you haven't played CoX in a while I'd try it again for a month. I think you'd be really surpised at what's been done to the game. The other bright spot is that whatever mistakes they made with CoX, whatever flaws it had, Cryptic has had years to learn from those and has other MMO's to draw lessons from as well. Plus in the not too distant future we'll get a chance to see their next MMO Champions. Since STO is based off of the Champions game engine it will be a good indicator of what they'll be able to do with STO.

[sylvermane64]

Hello Devs:

When I found out that Cryptic was the company in charge of developing I got a wave of relief, then a wave of panic hit me. At first I thought, "Oh nice, Cryptic's other big games (City of Heroes and City of Villains) had some decent role-playing support. There was the Pocket D, but that was about it. Still, better than nothing right?" Then I remembered City of X's (X as in either or) PVP system and just how HORRIBLE it was, then I recalled CoX's mission system and how horrible that was too!

For those of you who haven't played CoX, don't. It's a decent game, but let me give you the over all feel. PVP is all instanced. There is no world PVP, period. All PVP in said instance is level controlled and restricted, people of lower level are moved up to the "average level" and everyone above it is moved down. Forget all your hard work (or, on the other than, here, have some levels that you didn't earn.)

Missions. What a joke. Missions in CoX are all done in "doors", IE: instances. There are NO MISSIONS DONE IN WORLD. If there is, it's like 1% and I never personally saw any or did any. There's a couple world bosses you fight but that's it.

The world itself is fairly alive, there are some NPCs around and a lot of mobs wandering, but these mobs are rarely ever used for missions, they're just there to annoy you and slow you down (and for achievements. Kill 5,000 X!"

Because other MMOs are tried and tested. We know what we want, we know what we hate, and being bottled up in instances is something MOST of us hate.

Where your getting your "MOST of us", I don't know. On the other thread asking about Instances, it looks like a 50/50 split. And that is just a 'few' people that regularly post on this forum. When I say "a few", those that post on this forum are a mere small fraction of people that will be playing the game come go time.

Personally, I still play CoX to this day, and I still enjoy it. And as has been said in prior posts, there have been huge advances in MMO tech, and I'm sure that Cryptic is going to be using them.

I also like Instanced missions, due to the fact that it cuts down on spawn camping, and me and my friends can group without having to worry about someone else coming in a ruining our fun time.

I would still recommend CoX to people to play.

[FlaGuitars]

COX is the best MMO out there.

[FelFox]

CoX is about 4 or more years old, it was a great game in my opinion and one I still play. That being said I do agree on a number of things but I do believe STO will pull through. Looking at Champions it really seems to be headed in a direction that could be basically seen as CoX2 where they got all the right things better and scrapped the bad things.

Guild wars had hubs, basically cities full of PCs but the second you went out into the 'world' it was all instanced! I personally hate instances and WoW and WAR are all the better for it to create worlds where the missions take place in the expanse. ((::Edit:: I should note though that some instances are fun and gives your team a 'we're all that stands in the way!' feel.)) However! Planets in STO will be instanced because they're well, random *to make you feel like you're in endless space* and only main ones or controllable ones will not so that anyone can go to them, chat on them or fight for them and I think that's the right way to go. Space is huge and it's hard to feel that way if you don't have contant things to explore; however you still want to come back to some key ones for RP or just because they're important. Imagine no earth, or Qo'nos or Vulcan? Would be really jarring.

Neutra zone will be concented and it fits because STO isn't open war, this isnt WAR where the two sides litterally hold the balance of the planet, this isnt WoW where the two sides just hate each other from birth, it's STO and both Federation and the Empire don't -want- a full scale war but they'll be darned if they don't tell the other to back off. Neutral zone is neutral, but you can be sure that should anyone do anything besides fly, the other side will be down on them fast. As for far out space, well... Who's going to find your wreckage heh.

Why go to the neutral zone and far out space though? Resources, resources for your faction so you can get better ships, better rewards and people to join your crew. Space is large, and both factions are ever growing, they'd just grown to the point where they're pressed up against each other and now there's friction to see who'll give first.

Finally, and this is just me, but I hope I never see a WoW's attempt at RP... I conceed I might just never have found it on their servers but there is just nothing for them... CoX had the D and other little spots for just gathering and chatting and RPing. They also had fully player built Bases to RP with and various costume slots so you could quickly change to anything you wanted on the fly to fit the mood. Your character could have their super costume, their secret identity costume, their fancy out on the night costume, swimwear, and their dark and super charged costume for when you have a big event planed. For STO though, I hope they double the RP stuff, I hope they stuff it into the game as much as possible because when I've gotten to the highest level and my character is a strong as can be and all I have left are raid after boring raid and maybe some pvp... I better have something that can keep me going with friends. Rping and player made stories can keep any MMO going well past its prime.

Just my opinion of course though ;)

[The_Padre]

It should also be pointed out that instances suited the genre of Superheroes perfectly, almost all superheroes operate by themselves or with a small number of allies. Since the teaming aspect was handled very well in CoX I think they did the idea justice.

It should also be pointed out that STO could easily operate on the same idea, almost all of Star Trek and its stories focus around a single crew doing missions on behalf of Starfleet, there were not many cases where there was more than one crew doing the very same mission.

Clearly Cryptic has decided to allow both to happen, you can solo with your own command crew or you can team up with other "captains" and their crews.

[USS_Parallax]

Instances are over used quite often. Most of the playable world (Galaxy whatever) shouldn't be instanced. I also hate when games split up an instance of one area because of population. That's like Orgrimmar being split every time the population goes above 100. Horrible.

Instances are great when used in moderation and when used at the right time. For PvP they can be great (just don't limit them to instances), For PvE they can be great. Just don't go Guild Wars on us or split normally non-instanced zones when the population gets high.

[sylvermane64]

Instances are over used quite often. Most of the playable world (Galaxy whatever) shouldn't be instanced. I also hate when games split up an instance of one area because of population. That's like Orgrimmar being split every time the population goes above 100. Horrible.

Instances are great when used in moderation and when used at the right time. For PvP they can be great (just don't limit them to instances), For PvE they can be great. Just don't go Guild Wars on us or split normally non-instanced zones when the population gets high.

I definately agree with this. Open areas where we can all pass each other as we 'trek' around the cosmos is a definate must.

BUT...splitting a zone may be necessary if a zones volume gets too high. Yes, it definately sucks, but even modern tech can't prevent lag. Unless they have some really 'nice' servers, whcih of course cost a buttload of cash.

[_Pax_]

For those of you who haven't played CoX, don't.
I disagree - those who haven't played, SHOULD try and get a Trial code at the very least.

It's a decent game, but let me give you the over all feel. PVP is all instanced. There is no world PVP, period. All PVP in said instance is level controlled and restricted, people of lower level are moved up to the "average level" and everyone above it is moved down. Forget all your hard work (or, on the other than, here, have some levels that you didn't earn.)
First off, the PvP is not "instanced", it is simply "restricted to certain parts of the world". ****** Bay (the lowest-level PvP zone) is no more instanced than Atlas Park (one of two hero Beginner zones).

The only reason to object to the Auto-Exemplar mechanics in the PvP zones, honestly, is because you're not allowed to bring your level-capped hero into ****** Bay and gank poor level 15 "barely allowed to enter" characters.

Missions. What a joke. Missions in CoX are all done in "doors", IE: instances. There are NO MISSIONS DONE IN WORLD. If there is, it's like 1% and I never personally saw any or did any. There's a couple world bosses you fight but that's it.
If you never, ever had a "Defeat <number> <group> in <zone>" mission, then you never even played the tutorial, let alone the game itself. "Hunt X" missions were common enough, they got their own shorthand name: "Hunt X" missions.

The world itself is fairly alive, there are some NPCs around and a lot of mobs wandering, but these mobs are rarely ever used for missions, they're just there to annoy you and slow you down (and for achievements. Kill 5,000 X!"
See above.


PVP. [...] You cannot allow babysitting in this game like you have in CoX, this galaxy is dangerous and past a certain point, players should always be attackable by others.
You want that ... go play EVE. Seriously.

People know it's dangerous and know that they need to form fleets if they want to survive, [...]
Forced grouping sucks. 'nuff said.

[...] don't baby anyone, and keep the safe zones to a minimum, and even then:

Take a page from PlanetSide. No place is ever safe for long. Have a system of links and connections. EARTH -> MARS -> SATURN. If the Romulans want to attack with a 1000 ships, let them attack Saturn first before they can attack Earth. Then Mars, and lastly Earth. Of course this would give the Feds time to come back to Earth and defend, or something like that. Warhammer is doing something similar, so should STO.
Go. Play. EVE.

[CyberQat]

e, have some levels that you didn't earn.)

Missions. What a joke. Missions in CoX are all done in "doors", IE: instances. There are NO MISSIONS DONE IN WORLD. If there is, it's like 1% and I never personally saw any or did any. There's a couple world bosses you fight but that's it.

UM no. there are "street sweep" missions that are in-world.

[Cryptic_Fan_101]

Go. Play. EVE.

QFT

Seriously.

[LordDave]

No offense to you PvP'ers out there. I realize that with any MMO that this is an integral part. I mean, what's more important than two people endlessly locked in battle over-and-over-and-over, ad infinitem. I mean obviously two ape's that like to beat each other for no-reason other than they figured out how to pick up a stick and use it as a weapon is basic human-nature I suppose.

But I'm looking forward to the other aspect of the game, and that's the storyline. The quests. The problems and solutions. The depth. The majority of Star Trek canon if condensed really deals with the Human Condition. Focusing on aspects of our society that we tend to forget about.

I realize that many of you mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging agressive, Alpha males out there want to beat-each other to death, but me, I'm looking forward to using "my sticks" to explore and develop, and to seek out new life. You know, the other half of Star Trek.

So you cave-men can go blow each other up. I'm going to hang out with your women, paint some things on the cave and gather some berries for this coming winter. Enjoy!

-Avery

Can I come too?

[thefreshjedi]

Can I come too?

Sure, we can even have little hats!

-Avery

[cocoa-jin]

I agree that STO needs to be its own MMO with dynamics, code, balance specific to it. I hope Cryptic goes all the way an truly innovates with this game and doesnt get comfortable and complacent and cut corners because they figure they have less to do.

[RookActual]

A game ahead of it's time was SWG, and even PlanetSide. Both games had the skill system. In PlanetSide, even a brand new player could skill kill a veteran, but in no other game is that really viable. In SWG you chose what you wanted to be and then you leveled up that skill until you hit master. If you got bored with that then you dropped it and learned something else. You kept the same name, always very nice!

You trashed CoX. Then you heralded SWG as ahead of it's time? That's your opinion, and I suppose it's fine. However, as someone who grew up as Star Wars as his favorite game ever, among a large groups of other fans. I find it odd that none of us seemed to last through the trial. Now, PlanetSide has indeed been the basis for a lot of my suggestions here. The Certification Battle Rank and Command Rank system worked very well, and with some expansion and complexity it would be great for a military based RPG. But PlanetSide was not an RPG. It was just the FPS I enjoyed the most in my life.

The problem with the PlanetSide system, as far as RPGs are concerned, is that it was not a skill system. It was a resource/equipment access system.

[USS_Parallax]

Some of us love reading chapters upon chapters of lore and also love beating the crap out of carebears. Am I the only one?

[USS_Parallax]

I'm assuming of course that most of you are the type that enjoy storylines, reading, learning, exploring, oh you know, the greater parts of culture?


This is a freakin' game. We can enjoy all of those AND war. And you're insulting because you're saying that's bad and grouping people who like war games into a horrible stereotype. Basically you're just another ignorant person in the world.

[thefreshjedi]

This is a freakin' game. We can enjoy all of those AND war. And you're insulting because you're saying that's bad and grouping people who like war games into a horrible stereotype. Basically you're just another ignorant person in the world.


Well, I must have struck a chord in those alpha males out there. It's seems obvious now that there is a direct correlation between the concept of "nerd rage" and "pvp".

Hmm, to quote Spock: "Fascinating".



-Avery

[sylvermane64]

[/I]Well, I must have struck a chord in those alpha males out there. It's seems obvious now that there is a direct correlation between the concept of "nerd rage" and "pvp".

Hmm, to quote Spock: "Fascinating".



-Avery

Actually Fresh, I am a person that enjoys both Story and Battle, or at least some sort of adversity. I am old enough to have watch TOS during their first run.

But as was stated above by Parallax, this IS a video game, and action and adversity are a part of the MMO Generation. Even in the Star Trek history, there has ALWAYS been a war, or threat of war or attacks from the Federations enemies.

In a MMO, if it was just running around exploring but with no action, you know...a little 'pew, pew', here and there, this game wouldn't last very long. And ultimately Cryptic needs that action, sense of war for them to succeed.

Your post is indeed very demeaning towards people that enjoy action and adventure. Their way of playing is no more wrong than what you want. You make yourself sound like your some kind of Elitist, that believes that your high brow, intellectual opinion should be the 'logical' path for everyone.

So, in other words, get off your high horse and realize that the Universe doesn't revolve around your beliefs, or what you believe to be fun.

One of the leading paths of thought in the Vulcan culture is....

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

[Futuristicdragoon]

From the Game Informer spread, it looks like they already have a good MMORPG. If the missions are as unique as they say they will be, I think it's already better than many other MMORPGs out there. I wouldn't worry about how good STO will be.

Already seems like a keeper. They have a year to look over everything we've been talking about wanting in the game + looking at the mistakes of other companies recent MMOs as well as their newer one (Champions) and making changes to STO.

[minago]

You trashed CoX. Then you heralded ultima online as ahead of it's time? .

fix't that for ya :p

[Captain_Intrepid]

It would be highly illogical to assume that Cryptic utilizes a replicator system in creating new games.

There will be more than enough differences between the City of... games, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and Cryptic MMO: The Undisclosed Game (i.e. all that's revealed is some concept art) that would insure their own unique gameplay/experience.

[Elvennomad]

Caveman ... LOL Everytime I read Jedi's posts I smile. Yes you may be offensive or may have offended some but bless you for it. I personally have never been much of a PvP fan. MAinly because the systems that are in place in most games are broken. Part of PvP is being a math whiz. You find the most broken class you can ... challenge people ... and when you beat them feel a sense of accomplishment. I get it. Its rewarding to know your better than someone else. When the game makes it impossible for a certain class to win its no longer fun for me. COH is great because it has become balanced over time. Star Wars Galaxies IMO has been and will always be an abysmal game. While I agreee that the skill system is a good idea it was executed very poorly in that game. Scouts were beyond useless. Try playing Final Fantasy XI or RF online ... they have interesting skill systems built around a level system. I love the Job system in FFXI as well. As far as instancing goes it's a nice option. I like being able to finish a mission without someone running around griefing people or just out right being an @ss.

[Awarkle]

The problems i found with city of villains was that effectivly the entire game was one long grind fest to 50, all the missions were identical in that it came down to

kill xx number of enemies
kill named enemy
clear dungeon

and that was it for the entire game even the story arcs were only slightly interesting.

i played swg before the NGE hit and i sort of enjoyed the skill up method the problem i found with the skill based sysystems is that in some cases they can be as boring if not more so than a general kill xxx number of enemies system.

For example the crafting careers consisted of building an item and getting points into certain skill boxes, howver if you just bought a load of grind materials and made the same item over and over again until you effectivly dinged it was the same as grinding 1000 mobs to ding a level.

What i want from a game is level 1 leveling up to be exactly the same as end game level 40 or 50 or 60.

and for the love of god REWARD GROUPING. So many games on the market that penalise you for grouping up so everyone solos. I hate soloing why play an mmo if your going to solo all the time.

[Elvennomad]

I almost disagree. I like soloing. Especially after you just got out of a group that was less than desirable. It's also a matter of time. I have a lot going on in my life and most of the time can only sit down 30 minutes at a time. I am not gonna group if thats all the time I have. A game has to be fun and engaging when you play solo as well as when your in a group. I don't think you should be rewarded for grouping because that makes it feel forced. Oh and I hated SWG even more when they quote unquote improved it.

[USS_Parallax]

40% of MMOers are Solo players (I've read this in a few articles... can't find t3h link).

That's a huge number. Gotta give them some love. If MMOs get any more accepted by the general public I'm sure that number will raise.

[J.L.Picard]

some good point however i doubt that Crytic will listen. they relly think that CoX is magnificent game and so they should itis there game. but they need to realise they cant just put a ST skin and change the setting to space. the random map generator has to die. federation has 8K light years of territory youd think that would be enough without resulting in making random space.

[Elvennomad]

some good point however i doubt that Crytic will listen. they relly think that CoX is magnificent game and so they should itis there game. but they need to realise they cant just put a ST skin and change the setting to space. the random map generator has to die. federation has 8K light years of territory youd think that would be enough without resulting in making random space.

I'm not sure I see your point here. Cryptic is designing space buut will have some random generation in the game when it comes to planetary exploration. At least to my understanding. Whats wrong with Random generation ... it tends to keep things spicy ... at least imo.

[Syphus]

I enjoyed playing CoV/CoH actually... and I probably would have kept a subscription up if I knew more people who played it. (In fact when I look back on the purchase of Tabula Rasa I made the free trial of CoH + CoV was the only worthwhile factor! :P)

I also do think instancing has it's place. One of the most annoying aspects of an MMO is when you and your party fight your way down the dungeons of despair only to find some high level player afk/atk camping the boss mob.

There are definately area's which don't matter and area's which are better off not instanced. However instances make things far more manageable and far more reliable an experience.

If you consider WoW... and I hate to say this :(. They had a good setup instance wise... You had world PvP/PvE, Instances, And Instanced PvP. A good balance is all you need!

[Syphus]

I hear the Romulans are planning similar get-togethers in the future.

I'm sorry the Romulans are unavailable at the moment, please leave a message and try again in a future expansion. :P

[RookActual]

I'm sorry the Romulans are unavailable at the moment, please leave a message and try again in a future expansion. :P

'Cuz we r cloakt in ur base watchin' yer dewdz' :eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Syphus]

'Cuz we r cloakt in ur base watchin' yer dewdz' :eek::eek::eek::eek:

Oh I was wondering where we were, smells funny in 'ere

[KidBang]

COX is the best MMO out there.

Agreed.

I have no idea why anyone could be against instancing missions. Much better than everyone camping for the same boss to respawn in order to kill. This set up lets my character be the star of his own story, not just the same as a dozen other guys doing the exact same thing in the exact same place.

[jonleach]

Ok I have read thru this thread and all I got o say is OMG!!! Feelings run strong. :).

He is my two Federation Credits on this subject ;)

1) I believe good mission content is needed and should be set so that campers are not taking the fun away from it.
2) PvP should be allowed in certain area's of space. But should be done between two opposites, another words Federation against Federation in my opion not cannon or IP on a large scale.
3) In the areas where players want to go on missions in areas where PvP is allowed there should be some short of way these people can warp out with out having to fight if they want not too or even better, be left a lone to do the missions they are on. The way I remember the Neutral zone for instance was that not all encounters always lead to a fight betwen the Romulans and the Federation or even the Klingons.
4) I understand the need and the fun of PvP can be and I myself may part take in it, but not all the time, I really feel as I am also one of those who remember the original Serial and watched it. I want some true Star Trek missions that challenge me to figure out how to get around the situation and still win the objective with out having to come blasting my way in and out.


I am sure I will get flamed over this but here it is.

[thefreshjedi]

Caveman ... LOL Everytime I read Jedi's posts I smile. Yes you may be offensive or may have offended some but bless you for it. I personally have never been much of a PvP fan. MAinly because the systems that are in place in most games are broken. Part of PvP is being a math whiz. You find the most broken class you can ... challenge people ... and when you beat them feel a sense of accomplishment. I get it. Its rewarding to know your better than someone else. When the game makes it impossible for a certain class to win its no longer fun for me. COH is great because it has become balanced over time. Star Wars Galaxies IMO has been and will always be an abysmal game. While I agreee that the skill system is a good idea it was executed very poorly in that game. Scouts were beyond useless. Try playing Final Fantasy XI or RF online ... they have interesting skill systems built around a level system. I love the Job system in FFXI as well. As far as instancing goes it's a nice option. I like being able to finish a mission without someone running around griefing people or just out right being an @ss.

Thank you! At least some of you got the joke. It was intended as a joke, nothing more. I just wanted to make a sharp contrast between those on the left and those on the right.

Again, as I said originally: I can understand why it's important to include PvP in any MMO. And...I RESPECT your opinions on it. I too like to bash someone with a stick from time to time. BUT.....I PREFER to play Star Trek in a more canonical way. To reach out, explore, solve problems, to understand, and communicate...etc.

It is MY opinion, and only MY opinion that warfare in a time when man has gone that extra mile to better himself, promoting world peace in a vision of prosperity and longevity would not be absolutely necessary. Quite frankly, the one thing I'M SICK OF, is Star Trek games focusing soley around the premise that there is a need to blast each other to smitherines.

And you can flame me all you want for it, because frankly I don't care.


-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

...
Hear that knocking? That's the Klingons. They're coming for a visit, and they're bringing the party favors.
I hear the Romulans, Cardassians, and Dominion are planning similar get-togethers in the future.

And I welcome them!

"Speak softly but carry a big stick."

I will be sitting with my back against the wall, facing the only door....Calmly.
With my phaser set to "kill", sitting out in the open for all to see, on the table...very near to my hand.
I will be drinking a nice bourbon with the other free hand when they come.
I will leave a chair open for them to sit in.
I will pour them a glass and have it ready for them to drink.
And I will say, "Sit, friends. Drink with me! Tell me what it would take to make things right for you?"
And I will listen.

1) But I wont make any promises that I cannot keep. Save the politics for the politicians.
2) And if they refuse to cooperate. Or do not wish to reason; I will not hesitate to leave burn holes in my nice staff chairs. While I simultaneously issue the order to blast their ship into a million little pieces.

There is no reason that we cannot be civil.

-Avery

[minago]

There is no reason that we cannot be civil.


pay no mind to pax he/she hasnt had there daily jolt cola yet

[TheMasterpiece]

Ive never played CoX but ive heard ALOT of good things about it and i really believe STO will be a great mmo

[Profedius]

CoX was very boring to play all the instances started to look the same and in every fight one would click the same three buttons over and over until they were dead or those whom they were fight were dead.

[sylvermane64]

And I welcome them!

"Speak softly but carry a big stick."

I will be sitting with my back against the wall, facing the only door....Calmly.
With my phaser set to "kill", sitting out in the open for all to see, on the table...very near to my hand.
I will be drinking a nice bourbon with the other free hand when they come.
I will leave a chair open for them to sit in.
I will poor them a glass and have it ready for them to drink.
And I will say, "Sit, friends. Drink with me! Tell me what it would take to make things right for you?"
And I will listen.

1) But I wont make any promises that I cannot keep. Save the politics for the politicians.
2) And if they refuse to cooperate. Or do not wish to reason; I will not hesitate to leave burn holes in my nice staff chairs. While I simultaneously issue the order to blast their ship into a million little pieces.

There is no reason that we cannot be civil.

-Avery

Let's see, in the 'reality' of the MMO world and the people that play them, you'll get to the part where they enter the room, you'll start to say "Sit, friend...." then there will be oblivion for you.

You see, in a MMO, there is no accountablity for Griefers, there are NO moralistic codes that are in effect in a online world. No laws, and no rules. That is assuming your in a PvP zone.

While your 'dramatic' quote above sounds oh so elloquent, arrogant and self deluding, that boat won't float in a PvP zone in a online game. Now in the world of the Star Trek Universe, whether on TV, Movie or Books, sure, it might work. But that is in the fictional world of Star Trek where its supposed to be dramatic, exciting and adventurous.

But since PvP is for 'knuckle draggers", I'm sure that your character won't be caught anywhere near there.....right?

[Myopic_Aardvark]

Forced grouping sucks. 'nuff said..

And given that Jack said for Champions that he felt the days of Forced Teaming were past, I think anyone who is expecting a Cryptic game to do anything of the sort is going to be fairly disappointed.

[LordDave]

And I welcome them!

"Speak softly but carry a big stick."

I will be sitting with my back against the wall, facing the only door....Calmly.
With my phaser set to "kill", sitting out in the open for all to see, on the table...very near to my hand.
I will be drinking a nice bourbon with the other free hand when they come.
I will leave a chair open for them to sit in.
I will poor them a glass and have it ready for them to drink.
And I will say, "Sit, friends. Drink with me! Tell me what it would take to make things right for you?"
And I will listen.

1) But I wont make any promises that I cannot keep. Save the politics for the politicians.
2) And if they refuse to cooperate. Or do not wish to reason; I will not hesitate to leave burn holes in my nice staff chairs. While I simultaneously issue the order to blast their ship into a million little pieces.

There is no reason that we cannot be civil.

-Avery

Sounds like Teddy Roosevelt. He had a good policy that was backed up only because he bluffs good.

[thefreshjedi]

Let's see, in the 'reality' of the MMO world and the people that play them, you'll get to the part where they enter the room, you'll start to say "Sit, friend...." then there will be oblivion for you.


Who says they're getting on the ship with weapons in hand?

You see, in a MMO, there is no accountablity for Griefers, there are NO moralistic codes that are in effect in a online world. No laws, and no rules. That is assuming your in a PvP zone.


Thus reinforcing my original sentiment.

While your 'dramatic' quote above sounds oh so elloquent, arrogant and self deluding, that boat won't float in a PvP zone in a online game. Now in the world of the Star Trek Universe, whether on TV, Movie or Books, sure, it might work. But that is in the fictional world of Star Trek where its supposed to be dramatic, exciting and adventurous.


See that's the genious of creating something as amazing as this. It doesn't have to be so black and white. You could stretch the imagination and make it something more. Why does it have to be so heavily factionalized? In my opinion: to meet the needs of a society hell-bent on self destruction. But again, that's the arrogance, to use your negative terminology of developing a 25th century game from a 21st century mindframe. If you want to bash each other's brains out, fine, that's your choice. But again, that's a sign of intellectual immaturity.

Let's take WoW for example. You can barely find a group that has a good balance any more, simply for no other reason than everyone wants to do higher and higher dps. Why? Because the more dps you do the better off your chances are in PvP. Here's the catch: To keep the game balanced, the developers had to lessen the other abilities in the various skill trees. Take for instance, a Priest. Many Priests in WoW decide to go Shadow spec. Why? Because it's one of the most powerful dps classes in the game. But here's the catch: If you class in Shadow, your healing abilities suffer. Thus you can no-longer be relied upon for healing only, and many groups that are looking to adventure together wont select you simply because they need a "healer". But, here's the other side to that coin. Playing a "healer" sucks. Period. There is no fun aspect to it, especially in solo play. The only thing healers are good for is groups. They are boring as hell to play on a solo basis. And here's the real kick in the pants. Blizzard charges you in-game currency to reclassify your spec, should you choose to go from healing to dps, or vice-versa. A very stupid idea. In my opinion, this devalues the game, and reduces the opportunity to really explore the different skill trees, or fully develop your character. Thus devaluing the overall game experience for everyone.

But since PvP is for 'knuckle draggers", I'm sure that your character won't be caught anywhere near there.....right?

Pax is right, I'm not sorry for what I said, because I want you to realize that no matter how much you enjoy PvP, PvP actually ruins a game, because instead of focusing on the more creative and beautiful aspects of the story, developers spend more time working on "balancing issues", and usually no-one is happy, because in creating a balance, someone will always be nerfed. Someone will always have their feelings stepped on, and it is a constant battle to keep everyone happy. So yes, "knuckle dragging" in essence is to be blamed for this selfish "nerd-rage" need to lash out at someone anonymously, just so that you can get a 5 second high after defeating them, just so that you can go do it again in another 5 seconds, only because you've managed to manipulate your in-game Avatar to such an extent that you're able to easily overpower everyone else.

So yay for you! You've climbed to the top of the nerd-bashing knuckle-dragging ladder. And now that you've reached the top, what are you going to do now? What scars do you have to show for it? A couple of trinkets maybe? Your 15 minutes of fame are gone. You're bored. You've moved on to another game. And now someone else is moving up the ladder, someone else who has figured out a better way to manipulate their character to bash others beneath them. The developers are left cussing, trying to figure out how to fix this issue without offending everyone else.

So in many ways it just propogates the over-all human condition. We find a quicker better way to use up all of our resources to destroy our enemies quicker. To trash the world we live in. To lash out at our foes real or imagined, and then we waste everything that we touch, leaving nothing behind in our wake. For what? What did it accomplish? What was the end point? What is our legacy?

Chew on that for a while and get back to me when you have a better solution.

-Avery

[sylvermane64]

Who says they're getting on the ship with weapons in hand?



Thus reinforcing my original sentiment.



See that's the genious of creating something as amazing as this. It doesn't have to be so black and white. You could stretch the imagination and make it something more. Why does it have to be so heavily factionalized? In my opinion: to meet the needs of a society hell-bent on self destruction. But again, that's the arrogance, to use your negative terminology of developing a 25th century game from a 21st century mindframe. If you want to bash each other's brains out, fine, that's your choice. But again, that's a sign of intellectual immaturity.

Let's take WoW for example. You can barely find a group that has a good balance any more, simply for no other reason than everyone wants to do higher and higher dps. Why? Because the more dps you do the better off your chances are in PvP. Here's the catch: To keep the game balanced, the developers had to lessen the other abilities in the various skill trees. Take for instance, a Priest. Many Priests in WoW decide to go Shadow spec. Why? Because it's one of the most powerful dps classes in the game. But here's the catch: If you class in Shadow, your healing abilities suffer. Thus you can no-longer be relied upon for healing only, and many groups that are looking to adventure together wont select you simply because they need a "healer". But, here's the other side to that coin. Playing a "healer" sucks. Period. There is no fun aspect to it, especially in solo play. The only thing healers are good for is groups. They are boring as hell to play on a solo basis. And here's the real kick in the pants. Blizzard charges you in-game currency to reclassify your spec, should you choose to go from healing to dps, or vice-versa. A very stupid idea. In my opinion, this devalues the game, and reduces the opportunity to really explore the different skill trees, or fully develop your character. Thus devaluing the overall game experience for everyone.



Pax is right, I'm not sorry for what I said, because I want you to realize that no matter how much you enjoy PvP, PvP actually ruins a game, because instead of focusing on the more creative and beautiful aspects of the story, developers spend more time working on "balancing issues", and usually no-one is happy, because in creating a balance, someone will always be nerfed. Someone will always have their feelings stepped on, and it is a constant battle to keep everyone happy. So yes, "knuckle dragging" in essence is to be blamed for this selfish "nerd-rage" need to lash out at someone anonymously, just so that you can get a 5 second high after defeating them, just so that you can go do it again in another 5 seconds, only because you've managed to manipulate your in-game Avatar to such an extent that you're able to easily overpower everyone else.

So yay for you! You've climbed to the top of the nerd-bashing knuckle-dragging ladder. And now that you've reached the top, what are you going to do now? What scars do you have to show for it? A couple of trinkets maybe? Your 15 minutes of fame are gone. You're bored. You've moved on to another game. And now someone else is moving up the ladder, someone else who has figured out a better way to manipulate their character to bash others beneath them. The developers are left cussing, trying to figure out how to fix this issue without offending everyone else.

So in many ways it just propogates the over-all human condition. We find a quicker better way to use up all of our resources to destroy our enemies quicker. To trash the world we live in. To lash out at our foes real or imagined, and then we waste everything that we touch, leaving nothing behind in our wake. For what? What did it accomplish? What was the end point? What is our legacy?

Chew on that for a while and get back to me when you have a better solution.

-Avery

Already found the solution.....

It's a VIDEO GAME...it's meant for ENTERTAINMENT.

It has nothing to do with the Human Condition, Social Expansion, or otherwise. The REAL world will not change socially due to the interactions of of a bunch of people playing a GAME on a computer.

[RookActual]

MMOs are the Wild West of the modern world.

So someone please give me a Firefly MMO. That way I can have the best of both worlds?

[thefreshjedi]

Already found the solution.....

It's a VIDEO GAME...it's meant for ENTERTAINMENT.

It has nothing to do with the Human Condition, Social Expansion, or otherwise. The REAL world will not change socially due to the interactions of of a bunch of people playing a GAME on a computer.

Is it? Hmm... you dont think so?

Art is also entertainment....historically, art was used to tell stories and to entertain the masses.

Art has always been an expression of culture. And without it, I don't think our culture would have lasted. In fact art transcends generations to tell stories from past to present.

MMO's albeit entertainment, are still a form of art. Electronic art, maybe, but artistic none-the-less, and play a significant role in our culture.

I think it's a little too early to judge that so quickly. I think our world needs to start focusing culture back into our art. Computers are just another medium to develop art, and what's more wonderful than actually interacting with our creations?

MMORPG's have a responsibility to their players to keep them aware of social impact. I think that the children of today need to have some way to reflect on their society, to understand where they came from and what the real world is about.

And I think being in a perpetual state of war, or PvP is not serving anyone, anything.

So does art mimmick culture or does culture mimmick art? And how do you address all of the violence in this world? On our streets? In our homes?

Sure, PvP is a necessary evil, it may keep kids off the streets and keep them from truly physically bashing each other, but you need a healthy balance of story and structure as well.

-Avery

[sylvermane64]

MMORPG's have a responsibility to their players to keep them aware of social impact. I think that the children of today need to have some way to reflect on their society, to understand where they came from and what the real world is about.

You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands, and need to stop over analysing and trying to compare a game with reality.

Reality is what is outside your front door, perhaps you should step outside a bit more often. Our society doesn't live in a computer. It is a creation of electronic elements and is meant PURELY for entertainment. To see it otherwise is quite delusional, in my opinion that is.

I'll simplify it for you...

It's a game.

[thefreshjedi]

You have waaaaaay too much time on your hands, and need to stop over analysing and trying to compare a game with reality.

Reality is what is outside your front door, perhaps you should step outside a bit more often. Our society doesn't live in a computer. It is a creation of electronic elements and is meant PURELY for entertainment. To see it otherwise is quite delusional, in my opinion that is.

I'll simplify it for you...

It's a game.

You're right. I do have waaaaaaaaay to much time on my hands, which is why I (not unlike yourself) like to contribute to these forums.

Our reality is being abridged on an exponential level by these "computers". And they are not meant solely for entertainment. There are many of us that rely on computers everyday in real life. They wake us up in the morning, they navigate our cars. They make us food. They store ideas, and create worlds in themselves. They allow us to communicate in forums and blogs. They transmit information in light speed around the world and back.

Today they propel us to through the atmostphere to the heavens, and one day, they will propel us through the stars.

It may be just a game for some, and that sir, is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But I think that the way in which our society is headed, that all of these gaming companies have a responsibility to steer them into a positive direction.

-Avery

[RookActual]

this Public Service Announcement is brought to you by: Rook, your resident washed out low brow scrub with an overinflated post count:

Guys, can we move away from the moral dillemas? After a page of this, I don't think you're going to convince each other either way. Yeah, I get caught up in them, too, but sometimes it's good to have a little outside encouragement and interference. I'd hope you'd do the same with me. Not judging you guys, just trying to help.

[Hagon]

Well, I must have struck a chord in those alpha males out there. It's seems obvious now that there is a direct correlation between the concept of "nerd rage" and "pvp".

Hmm, to quote Spock: "Fascinating".



-AveryAhhh no actually, you didn't. I just don't think that such divisive language need be used, and such broad generalizations made.

I enjoy PvE and PvP pretty much equally, and enjoy the story any MMO has to offer, but I have many friends that are avid PvPers and don't like PvE much at all, and none of them could even remotely be described in the way that you did back there. Most also enjoy story as well, and like their PvP to be part of the story, to make sense in regards to the story, and have what they do effect the story as well.

Being interested in the lore and story isn't something exclusive to PvEers, not in the least.

I'm not sure what terrible deed some PvPer did to you at some time in the past, but is it really fair to paint them all in such a negative light because of it?

[minago]

what would Mr.T (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NySN_plfiNI) do?

[sylvermane64]

this Public Service Announcement is brought to you by: Rook, your resident washed out low brow scrub with an overinflated post count:

Guys, can we move away from the moral dillemas? After a page of this, I don't think you're going to convince each other either way. Yeah, I get caught up in them, too, but sometimes it's good to have a little outside encouragement and interference. I'd hope you'd do the same with me. Not judging you guys, just trying to help.

Oh, I've made my point. I won't be responding any further on it.

[thefreshjedi]

Oh, I've made my point. I won't be responding any further on it.

As have I, but I'm just trying to leave food for thought...

Speaking of which, I would leave you with this interesting tidbit: Virtual Murder (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/10/23/avatar.murder.japan.ap/index.html)

Hmmm....

-Avery

[Hagon]

Let's take WoW for example. You can barely find a group that has a good balance any more, simply for no other reason than everyone wants to do higher and higher dps. Why? Because the more dps you do the better off your chances are in PvP. Here's the catch: To keep the game balanced, the developers had to lessen the other abilities in the various skill trees. Take for instance, a Priest. Many Priests in WoW decide to go Shadow spec. Why? Because it's one of the most powerful dps classes in the game. But here's the catch: If you class in Shadow, your healing abilities suffer. Thus you can no-longer be relied upon for healing only, and many groups that are looking to adventure together wont select you simply because they need a "healer". But, here's the other side to that coin. Playing a "healer" sucks. Period. There is no fun aspect to it, especially in solo play. The only thing healers are good for is groups. They are boring as hell to play on a solo basis. And here's the real kick in the pants. Blizzard charges you in-game currency to reclassify your spec, should you choose to go from healing to dps, or vice-versa. A very stupid idea. In my opinion, this devalues the game, and reduces the opportunity to really explore the different skill trees, or fully develop your character. Thus devaluing the overall game experience for everyone.



Pax is right, I'm not sorry for what I said, because I want you to realize that no matter how much you enjoy PvP, PvP actually ruins a game, because instead of focusing on the more creative and beautiful aspects of the story, developers spend more time working on "balancing issues", and usually no-one is happy, because in creating a balance, someone will always be nerfed. Someone will always have their feelings stepped on, and it is a constant battle to keep everyone happy. So yes, "knuckle dragging" in essence is to be blamed for this selfish "nerd-rage" need to lash out at someone anonymously, just so that you can get a 5 second high after defeating them, just so that you can go do it again in another 5 seconds, only because you've managed to manipulate your in-game Avatar to such an extent that you're able to easily overpower everyone else.

1. The balancing issues in WoW have always been about both PvP and PvE. They have been right from the start and still are. Devs put just as much time balancing for PvE as they do for PvP in any game with both.

Oh and btw, it's usually a completely separate group of devs that handle combat (PvE and PvP) and balance issues from the ones that are creating content. It effects nothing as far as amount of content goes.

2. For most PvPers it isn't about "killing" or "bashing" at all. It's about competing against another player instead of an AI controlled foe. I'll not get into a debate about which is more challenging, but if someone thinks pitting themselves against another player is, why should there be a problem with that?

3. One could make an argument that most PvEers are nothing more than mindless item grinders, and it's PvE that's ruining most games because most PvEers constantly demand new content has ever more gear added with increased stats setting the game on an endless item grind cycle (*cough*WoW*cough*). You see what I did there?



As have I, but I'm just trying to leave food for thought...

Speaking of which, I would leave you with this interesting tidbit: Virtual Murder (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/ptech/10/23/avatar.murder.japan.ap/index.html)

Hmmm....

-AveryNot sure if you even got past the headline, but the woman was charged with hacking.

[_Pax_]

pay no mind to pax he/she hasnt had there daily jolt cola yet
Actually, I think "thefreshjedi" was trying to put a "civil gentleman warrior" fac eon things. Which is all well and fine, but only works if the Federation really is ready for war. If they were as peaceful and "we all cooperate" all the time as some make them out to be, their neighbors would have carved the UFP up between them long ago.

And by the by, the amount f caffeine in a Jolt cola would likely "kill" me. Chronic gastric reflux sucks. :(

[thefreshjedi]

1. The balancing issues in WoW have always been about both PvP and PvE. They have been right from the start and still are. Devs put just as much time balancing for PvE as they do for PvP in any game with both.

Oh and btw, it's usually a completely separate group of devs that handle combat (PvE and PvP) and balance issues from the ones that are creating content. It effects nothing as far as amount of content goes.

2. For most PvPers it isn't about "killing" or "bashing" at all. It's about competing against another player instead of an AI controlled foe. I'll not get into a debate about which is more challenging, but if someone thinks pitting themselves against another player is, why should there be a problem with that?

3. One could make an argument that most PvEers are nothing more than mindless item grinders, and it's PvE that's ruining most games because most PvEers constantly demand new content has ever more gear added with increased stats setting the game on an endless item grind cycle (*cough*WoW*cough*). You see what I did there?


I agree to some extent with this, however the basis of my conversation is about self worth versus society, not just PvP vs. PvE. And I'm NOT saying it should be one OR the other.

Not sure if you even got past the headline, but the woman was charged with hacking.

Yes, I read the whole article. I put that into context with what I was talking about social values, art, and the effect MMORPG has on the world.

But since you pointed that out, that's a good topic too. How far does PvP go before you have people that will go to any ends to beat their enemies? It's a very slippery slope if you ask me. Because on one end of the spectrum you have those that manipulate the game to their advantage using game flaws, and on the other you have those that actually do everything they can to hack into the game to empower themselves over another person.

Both are equally wrong, in my mind, and where do you draw the line to get your point across??

And ultimately what do you achieve in the end? Is there any real value to it?

-Avery

[LordDave]

This thread sounds like the PVP thread.
Anyone who knows me should know full well that if I'm not partaking in this debate, it's reached a level even I won't go and that, ladies and gentlemen, is low.

[thefreshjedi]

This thread sounds like the PVP thread.
Anyone who knows me should know full well that if I'm not partaking in this debate, it's reached a level even I won't go and that, ladies and gentlemen, is low.

You're right Dave, and I offer a blanket apology. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps it is just a game.

I'm setting down my neural-vaporizor and offering a hand of truce.

But are yoos guys strong enough to shake it?



-Avery

[Hagon]

I don't have a problem shaking it.

Now, stopping myself from shaking it until your arm rips off and then beating you with it I may have a problem with.

:p:D

I kid, I kid.

[Redweaver]

Please keep a goodly amount of the universe instanced because instances are more dynamic than world spawns. Instances can change, morph, and when mobs die, they can stay dead. World mobs have to respawn to give everyone a chance, and that sucks for immersion. Also, instanced evironments can be more interactive and destructable.

Also, keep PvP 100% opt-in...do NOT force it on anyone. Personally, I'd like a game with no PvP so Devs can spend more time and energy on the things I like, but I know others like PvP, so it's likely to go in. So, my only PvP request is to keep it SOLIDLY SEGREGATED.

[Riceball]

MMOs are the Wild West of the modern world.

So someone please give me a Firefly MMO. That way I can have the best of both worlds?

That's actually in the works, or more precisely it's been licensed but is currently on hold while the development company works on a Buffy MMO; no kidding, a Buffy MMO.

[Riceball]

STO is almost the perfect game for instancing given the nature of the show and movies. After all, isn't part of Star Trek the exploration of space and the unknown and wouldn't it take away from the immersion if you had a mission to go make first contact with a newly discovered world only to discover a dozen other starship captains have also gotten the same mission to make first contact with the exact same people and they are all in front of you talking to the same leader of this planet? Which is why I'm leery on how well the Stargate MMO will work since it doesn't seem right if my SG team was assigned to explore planet P3X119 and found several other SG teams running around the world as well even though in the series we seldomly see more than one team at a time on a planet.

The other thing that makes instancing desirable that's been mentioned by others is the whole waiting thing. I really don't enjoy making my way through an area full of mobs that are my level or maybe a level or two higher only to find that someone has gotten there right before me and either killed the boss or grabbed the loot you're supposed to grab. Now you have to wait for everything to respawn before you can complete your quest/mission and in the meanwhile everything behind you has also respawned which means that you now have to fight your way back out. Oh yeah, loads of fun.

At the same time this doesn't mean that there shouldn't be open/public areas where you'll run into other ships and be able to battle other players. At the same time I really don't want to see a lot of ships pass by me in the middle of deep space, that would be another immersion killer for me. Starbases and major planets like Earth, Vulcan, Qonos I'd have no problems seeing all sorts of ship traffic but just not in deep space.

[Irish-Fury]

thefreshjedi obviously gets what is required to make a Star Trek game. After all, that is what this is... a Star Trek game.

[Debaser]

I want my little hat! :D

[thefreshjedi]

thefreshjedi obviously gets what is required to make a Star Trek game. After all, that is what this is... a Star Trek game.

Thanks Irish, I appreciate it. I realize that in the reality of creating something like this that it's not always possible to really incorporate all the elements that I talked about. But it would be nice to finally play a game with great complexity on all of those levels.

SWG I think tried to hit that mark, but lost the scope somewhere a long the way. I mean after-all...it was Star Wars.

Star Trek, per canon and the Rodenberry vision was just that...a Trek. An adventure. An exploration of ourselves and the final frontier. And an occasional hostility along the way. The problem solving aspects of Trek always asked us to look beyond our petty differences to find a solution to save us all.

Working through our differences and facing tough challenges, which forced us to cooperate...and from Roddenbury's perspective, he grew up in a time of wonders, a new age for man. Civil unrest. Social uncertainty. Government corruption. The constant threat of a nuclear war. And for him, I think that Roddenbury tried very hard to make a critical statement about mankind in general. A statement about our potential, and the bigger picture ahead of us.

And he did so very subtley. Like a quiet whisper to all of us that have been touched by the spirit of Trek. And that is: "Hey, wake up 'knuckle-draggers', stop it. Look past each other's petty differences and see the world of tomorrow. The one your children are going to live in. Do you want them to be just like this?"

That's all I'm trying to say here.

-Avery

[thefreshjedi]

I want my little hat! :D

Sure, we even have a secret hand-shake!

;)

-Avery

[JadeEngima]

The PvP system in either game does not relate to the vast (but silent) majority of players who do not indulge in such silly things. My personal opinion is CoX as better when it was limited to the arena, and adding the PvP zones was a bone to throw the loud, but minority, of players who wanted something better.

I beleive EVE has a good PvP system, or so I've heard. Perhaps that mnight be a suitable game?

[eNDIE]

The PvP system in either game does not relate to the vast (but silent) majority of players who do not indulge in such silly things. My personal opinion is CoX as better when it was limited to the arena, and adding the PvP zones was a bone to throw the loud, but minority, of players who wanted something better.

I beleive EVE has a good PvP system, or so I've heard. Perhaps that mnight be a suitable game?

Ye its so silly with pvp not like pve:) have you ever considered the pve players that pvp once and a while? just because you dont like it it shouldnt be in im all for it as a casual pvper. Diversity in a game that you probably are going to play for some time is important.

[RookActual]

That's actually in the works, or more precisely it's been licensed but is currently on hold while the development company works on a Buffy MMO; no kidding, a Buffy MMO.

The problem with a Firefly MMO is that I would have to wildly assume it would be cheaply and poorly made. The fact a Buffy MMO is preceeding it drives me insane. "Hmmm, let's take a modern era vampire hunter story that's more a teenage drama than anything else and turn it into an MMO." or "Hey, the MMO industry is ripe for a Space based adventurous MMO, and although Firefly got canned early, it's absolutely perfect for a role playing game."

[thefreshjedi]

The problem with a Firefly MMO is that I would have to wildly assume it would be cheaply and poorly made. The fact a Buffy MMO is preceeding it drives me insane. "Hmmm, let's take a modern era vampire hunter story that's more a teenage drama than anything else and turn it into an MMO." or "Hey, the MMO industry is ripe for a Space based adventurous MMO, and although Firefly got canned early, it's absolutely perfect for a role playing game."

This is off-topic, and more digression (sorry mods), but I MISS FIREFLY.

Serenity was an excellent movie, and the show kicked butt. I wish they'd make a comeback.



-Avery

[RookActual]

This is off-topic, and more digression (sorry mods), but I MISS FIREFLY.

Serenity was an excellent movie, and the show kicked butt. I wish they'd make a comeback.



-Avery

I think going off topic for a post or two isn't bad, it's just when it gets carried away into response after response.

[Riceball]

I think going off topic for a post or two isn't bad, it's just when it gets carried away into response after response.

That's when Razor comes in with his lock and key and locks the thread down.

[Blackheart]

PVP. Sticking true to ST lore, the galaxy is a dangerous place. Take a que from WoW, have some areas (like Earth, etc) safe for newer players, but as they leave, have them enter contested zones, zone which allow PVP. You cannot allow babysitting in this game like you have in CoX, this galaxy is dangerous and past a certain point, players should always be attackable by others. At the very least have a "canon" server and then have a PVE server. Instanced PVP is ok, but ensure you have WORLD PVP too.



Alright...I think this is going to start a big stink....But I dont PVP....At all....never....And I remember watching the video where it was said that PVP wouldn't be forced on anyone....So I'm all for haveing seperate servers for PVP,and PVE....IMO I dont want to be flying along minding my own buissness,looking for new worlds to explore,When the USS IPWNSU decides he wants to put another notch on his captains chair.

[sylvermane64]

Alright...I think this is going to start a big stink....But I dont PVP....At all....never....And I remember watching the video where it was said that PVP wouldn't be forced on anyone....So I'm all for haveing seperate servers for PVP,and PVE....IMO I dont want to be flying along minding my own buissness,looking for new worlds to explore,When the USS IPWNSU decides he wants to put another notch on his captains chair.

I really don't think we will have to worry about that. I believe that there will be zones where PvP will be limited to, I believe the Neutral Zone is just such an area. So, if you don't want to PvP, you just have to stay out of there.

But until we get more info, this is all just pure assumtion.

[LordDave]

I really don't think we will have to worry about that. I believe that there will be zones where PvP will be limited to, I believe the Neutral Zone is just such an area. So, if you don't want to PvP, you just have to stay out of there.

But until we get more info, this is all just pure assumtion.

No,no. It's been confirmed that all PVP is in zones.

[Sealance]

But until we get more info, this is all just pure assumtion.

Now thats something that everyones good at :)

[_Pax_]

Ye its so silly with pvp not like pve:) have you ever considered the pve players that pvp once and a while?
I dare say, the "sometimes" crowd - the ones who play plenty of PvE, but also sometimes play PvP? I'd guess that they outnumber BOTH of the other camps ... "Hardcore PvPers" and "PvE Purists" alike.

[War_Eagle]

The problem with a Firefly MMO is that I would have to wildly assume it would be cheaply and poorly made. The fact a Buffy MMO is preceeding it drives me insane. "Hmmm, let's take a modern era vampire hunter story that's more a teenage drama than anything else and turn it into an MMO." or "Hey, the MMO industry is ripe for a Space based adventurous MMO, and although Firefly got canned early, it's absolutely perfect for a role playing game."

Forget Buffy, I am looking forward to the World of Darkness MMO coming down the pipe (White Wolf/CCP), but I digress.

[War_Eagle]

I dare say, the "sometimes" crowd - the ones who play plenty of PvE, but also sometimes play PvP? I'd guess that they outnumber BOTH of the other camps ... "Hardcore PvPers" and "PvE Purists" alike.

Now you're getting it. The stark divisions drawn between "PvP" and "PvE" devotees are overstated IMO. It is more the case of individuals being involved in a "little of this" or a "little of that".