The Art of Running Away!

[OrabIbo]

In most MMO's when the heat starts to pile on and you look like you are in trouble you bail and start running in the opposite direction to avoid from getting killed. Either to avoid having to do a corpse run, or taking a damage penalty for dying to your equipment.

In STO I wonder how this will be accomplished in space combat. Considering that ships can take damage to their impulse engines or warp engines is a traditional strategic affair. How will you run away, to live to fight another day?!

We know PvP you typically fight to the death. I'm talking strictly PvE here where a majority of you fighting will take place. It's a different way of doing things for combat and XP.
You basically end up immobilized everytime you fight. Or the enemy focuses on immobilize you to take out out quicker. Should engineering in damage control be able to repair quickly enough to get you out of a jam?
Will we have skills to make quick get aways? Or must we pummel each other into a floating derelicts?

I'm curious to hear how ppl think this should be handled.

(Please keep the semantics of, running away being cowardly out of the conversation. We all have moments where escaping will save something, whether it's your life, time, and or equipment. It needs to be in an option in the game, just how?)

[cocoa-jin]

Protect your warp drive, transfer all available power to shields and warp out early. You cant committ to a fight, take a beating and expect to egress at your leisure.

The call to stay or leave is at first contact. First contact could be when they de-cloak next to you, or come around from the opposite side of a moon or planet, or when you pick them up on long range sensors.

[mezlabor]

The art of running away as taught by the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3-soJMmCAY&feature=related)

[Triatom]

I have thought about this subject also. How will people be able to run away during a PvP? Of course we can probably imagine that they'd warp out of the system to run away, or perhaps even outrun your huge lug of a starship if they were in something small. However, I wouldn't want running away to be too easy either. It just depends on the balance...we'll see how they make it and hopefully it's something we can all live with.

EDIT: ok sorry, the OP said it was PvE only. Well in this case then I'd think that there should always be a possibility to run away no doubt, but some missions will obviously be harder to run away from than others. Say...a fleet of Borg ships come in and lay down an anti-warp field...whoops...you're in trouble there. It just depends on different scenarios I think, it'd be cool to see what they come up with.

[LordDave]

Maybe they'll have a special ability like "Emergency warp" that gives you 10 seconds of warp power even if your warp drive is disabled.

[cocoa-jin]

Maybe they'll have a special ability like "Emergency warp" that gives you 10 seconds of warp power even if your warp drive is disabled.

How would that work?

[LordDave]

How would that work?

Well, imagine if your engineer is so good that he has the ability to jury rig the warp drive and give you a burst of power, but only for a few seconds before it shorts out.

Basically?
Skillz.

[Triatom]

Well, imagine if your engineer is so good that he has the ability to jury rig the warp drive and give you a burst of power, but only for a few seconds before it shorts out.

Basically?
Skillz.

Even if the enemies blow up your nacelles?

Jeez that's one skilled engineer :D

[Trekkie]

I definitely think that it should be possible to run away during Player vs. Environment interactions, but it will be difficult to implement in space since a damaged ship shouldn't be able to get away as quickly.

[Spire]

It shouldn't be too hard. About turn, throw as much power as you can to aft shields, and full impulse away (maybe some backwards firing if your really fancy). As long as your full impulse is equal or faster than your enemies you just need those aft shields to hold up until you get far enough away to drop aggro or whatever. (I assume enemies won't chase you all the way around the galaxy.)

[cocoa-jin]

Well, imagine if your engineer is so good that he has the ability to jury rig the warp drive and give you a burst of power, but only for a few seconds before it shorts out.

Basically?
Skillz.

But damage to the warp drive can come from a damaged core or to the nacelles right? If your nacelles are smashed, you cant create the warp bubble...Scotty aint getting out on the nacelle with duct tape. If the warp core is damaged, a jury rig to escape should be a gamble. The odds of a castrophic failure of the core and the total black out of the ship should be just as likly as getting that lucky escape.

Regardless of weither you warp out for a few seconds, or if you find yourself floating dead in space, the end result should be a crippled warp core that requires some significant time to repair and hopefully limp off to a Starbase.

Lets not put in a place a exploitive win-win get out of jail free card.

[cocoa-jin]

It shouldn't be too hard. About turn, throw as much power as you can to aft shields, and full impulse away (maybe some backwards firing if your really fancy). As long as your full impulse is equal or faster than your enemies you just need those aft shields to hold up until you get far enough away to drop aggro or whatever. (I assume enemies won't chase you all the way around the galaxy.)

I wouldnt turn around, that takes too much time. Assuming Im pointing toward the target, I'd aim for a point down and to his side(opposite what ever direction his nose may be pointing, no matter how insignificnt), and engage.

I'd warp out faster, i'd be displacing my self from his forward firing arcs(including torpedos), I'd increase my rate of lateral displacment, making hit harder to line up anything more than a snap shot. In addition, he likly wont see exactly where Im warping too.

The benefits of playing dog-fighting games, it provides an inherit advantage in true skills...even if the margin of the benfits may be very small.

[Sevenblade]

Even if the enemies blow up your nacelles?

Jeez that's one skilled engineer :D

At least they're not getting out to push :p

[Crux]

Hmm the solution your looking for is a bit of a problem. Your asking how to run when running is not possible. Because your ship is "dead in the water" you'd probably have to come up with different tactic because escape is no longer an option at this point in battle. I believe in the Kirk mantra: "I don't believe in a no win scenario."

But I really doubt they would make it so you can't eventually fix something over time. I bet they'll allow engineering teams to be dispatched. Repairing will be possible just take time. They're miracle workers or so I always hear. So if thats the case. Your best bet might be stall your opponent. :D

[jasonadlai]

If they actually do damage to / destroy the engines, then I honestly don't think one ought to be able to run. If that results in death... then... well... that happens. I just hope they do something like "escape pods" or whatnot, instead of your character dying and being re-spawned elsewhere. Ugh...

Discounting damaged or destroyed engines, I think running ought to be feasible.

In a PvP environment, assuming it's something more akin to a constant battle on the front lines, I'm not sure I would run. I know you come back, so some of the heroism is taken out of it for that reason, but when you're in battle, you fight to the bitter end to protect those around you. Maybe you'll take someone else out before you go.

That's my philosophy, anyway. :)

[OrabIbo]

Hmm the solution your looking for is a bit of a problem. Your asking how to run when running is not possible. Because your ship is "dead in the water" you'd probably have to come up with different tactic because escape is no longer an option at this point in battle. I believe in the Kirk mantra: "I don't believe in a no win scenario."

But I really doubt they would make it so you can't eventually fix something to over time. I bet they'll allow engineering teams to be dispatched. Repairing will be possible just take time. They're miracle workers or so I always hear. So if thats the case. Your best bet might be stall your opponent. :D

Well I'm not asking for a miracle. I mean if your Warp engines and Impulse engines are gone. Then yeah your toast.

But by the very nature of ship combat. you disable the engines first to make your enemy easier to shoot at.
Typically your ship keeps getting slower and slower till it can't go no more. So the goal is the warp out before it gets that bad.

But it just seems fly in the face of what we come to expect to be able to do in your typical MMO. Sure there are always root spells but they hold you for a short while. Impulse engine damage is a constant effect of slower manuverability until they are destroyed. The slower you go the harder it is for you to get away. Hence your stuck.

The most ideal time to start thinking about getting away is when you engines get down to half, or total power, or Warp engines (which is usually tied in with power since they generate it)

So yeah, its a bit of a problem. One that will require a unique approach to either solve or just accept it because it's a different style of playing.

In a PvP environment, assuming it's something more akin to a constant battle on the front lines, I'm not sure I would run. I know you come back, so some of the heroism is taken out of it for that reason, but when you're in battle, you fight to the bitter end to protect those around you. Maybe you'll take someone else out before you go

Yeah, It's pretty much a given that when you engage in PvP somebody is going to die. It's a to the death arrangement. Thats why I wanted to focus on PvE environment. When you have incentive to stay alive, so that you avoid having to respawn in a far off location, taking damage to equipment,.... etc. your typical death penalty affair. Light but enough to sting after awhile and become annoying if it happens to much. Hence you incentive to run away!

[callsign11b]

Simple
just use your deflector and create a rupture in sub space and let the graventaional eddies pul you in and you'll get away. :rolleyes:

or my way
full impuse speed set collision course. prepare to drop anti matter containment.
Boom :eek:

there is no honor to be captured by your enemy. (Klingon) :cool:

[cocoa-jin]

Remember that you cant warp away without your impulse engines. If I understand correctly, the warp nacelles dont provide propulsion, they only provide a bubble that "reduces your mass" allowing your impulse engines to propel you at warp speeds.

And no disrespect intended, but trying to equate STO mechanics to MMO mechanics will only over-simplify, and devolve STO into some horribly ill-concieved, b*stardized, dressed up, roll the dice, frag-fest with no depth or immersion...thats just my opinion.

STO needs to be equated to some melding of historical relationships between naval classes, submarines and perhaps aircraft, with a dab of pseudo-physics and natural law for checks and balances.

[OrabIbo]

And no disrespect intended, but trying to equate STO mechanics to MMO mechanics will only over-simplify, and devolve STO into some horribly ill-concieved, b*stardized, dressed up, roll the dice, frag-fest with no depth or immersion...thats just my opinion.

None taken, And I don't want it to be like any other MMO to. But in order to talk about something that hasn't been done before. You must reference things that are familiar with everybody. and that Reference would be your typical fantasy MMO. No matter how much you fight it. Ppl will draw parallels to WoW and other MMO's they know in order to make sense out of it all, because it is different.

It's not that we want to make a WoW copy. It's just the only way we know of to describe and discuss about it.

It just seems to me, that it would be a pain to commit to a fight in space and expect to, once engaged, fight to the death with no way to save your arse but fight to the end.

In drawing another parallel to EvE. In that game engine damage is not possible. So there is always a viable way of escaping when the crap hits the fan. But in STO, if they allow ship component damage that would effect your movement. By the very nature of design, your getting shot in the foot with wit tiling chance of escape that gets ever greater when you take more damage to engines.

Maybe like LordDave, we will have a special cool down ability to allow us to get out of a jam. maybe it's on a 15min timer. Where our engineers can perform "Miracles" and do an excellerated repair over time, that would give the chance for escape.

I'm also not saying I want to escape all my battles. but it's also not fun to go out and explore space just to die EVERY time.

[ninjakiller1]

If my ship the shields is down I would go for ramping on the enemy's ship make them see the true fight

[Badem]

I would be issuing 'I Surrender' Hails, Abandon ship and Auto destruct messages, lol Spam broadcsts indicating your gonna self destruct and watch the other guy run to escape teh blast radius

[OrabIbo]

and how many times would you really want to die?

As when you die you would have to run back out where you spent time and effort to get there. Just to die and have to do it all over again! How many times do you really want to do that? Dying sucks. I means you have to take more time to travel, take a equipment durability hit, lose of XP. It means different things for different games. But all in all, it is some sort of inconvience.

[k.mpok]

And this happens because your primary target was engines. Your primary target should always be weapons followed up with Life support.

With no teeth you get bitten not.
With no breath you die lacking.




If things get that bad I say full power to impulse and prepare for ramming speed.

[OrabIbo]

And this happens because your primary target was engines. Your primary target should always be weapons followed up with Life support.

With no teeth you get bitten not.
With no breath you die lacking.

If things get that bad I say full power to impulse and prepare for ramming speed.

heh, good point. Though immobilizing your target is aften the first thing you shoot for. If your not intending on killing them.

I have yet to see a game star trek game that allows you to target life support. AFter all it's a game. whats it going to really do. your NPC's going to suffocate? heh. But I would find it compelling if they actually did use this. in game.

[RanizMurjuri]

If they actually do damage to / destroy the engines, then I honestly don't think one ought to be able to run. If that results in death... then... well... that happens. I just hope they do something like "escape pods" or whatnot, instead of your character dying and being re-spawned elsewhere. Ugh...

Discounting damaged or destroyed engines, I think running ought to be feasible.

In a PvP environment, assuming it's something more akin to a constant battle on the front lines, I'm not sure I would run. I know you come back, so some of the heroism is taken out of it for that reason, but when you're in battle, you fight to the bitter end to protect those around you. Maybe you'll take someone else out before you go.

That's my philosophy, anyway. :)


you would make a nice Klingon!

[RanizMurjuri]

And this happens because your primary target was engines. Your primary target should always be weapons followed up with Life support.

With no teeth you get bitten not.
With no breath you die lacking.




If things get that bad I say full power to impulse and prepare for ramming speed.


well you'll make for easy prey.. targeting my weapons instead of my power to make battle.

[LAR]

I just have one comment based on what I'm reading here, do we know that "dying" involves your ship blowing up and not that you're disabled and have to be towed back to a starbase in disgrace. As far as immersion is concerned, that's more believable to me then somehow having myself and command crew cloned (or whatever) and being given a new ship.

Later,
LAR

[cocoa-jin]

The difficulty in being able to flee once engaged in a mature fight is reasonable, it makes fighting more of committment and forces those who desire to fight to think hard on weither its worth it to engage another vessel.

Battles shouldnt be so non-chalent, we shouldnt get complacent when we decide to fight, there should be some risk involved, it should feel like it counts.

[phifur]

I am reading thread and the one call Ramming speed thread . And the problem I have in this thread members saying I will just blow up my ship if I can't run away or ram them . But I think we should have ramming speed and Self Destruct as a option but have it so you have to meet a few condition before you get to use both options, and have heavy Penalty with it.

For Ramming condition to be met
1. no weapons
2 no or low shields( low as in 10%)
3. Impulse Drive working.
4. attacking ship is in close range.

For Self Destrust condition to be met
1. no weapons
2. no shields
3. Impulse Drive and warp Drive gone.
4. have about 90% hull damage.

Penalty can be like after your ship blow up and you respawn to a near by space station or friendly planet your shield is like 30% weaking for 15-30 mins. and 30% hull damage. and low crew numbers. For Self Destrust let it do 10% damage if your ship is close. A Example I can use is a Ninja in FFXI 2 hour move a ninja can self Destrust he lose all his HP(around 800-1200 HP) and can do around 200 damage.To monster his lvl range. With a penalty system in place members can have the option but have a price to pay.

[tmonroe]

So let me get this straight - this whole discussion is about people here who die in other MMORPGs and don't like having to hike all the way back to where they died?

The game shouldn't change just because you're about to die. Think about PVP: how fair would it be to take the time to hunt down someone, engage them (risking your own ship in the process), beat them in a battle, and before being able to blow up the ship, "something" happens, and the ship is miraculously pulled out of the battle before you can destroy them?

IMO, the whole fun of PVP is knowing that if you manage to destroy the enemy, you're going to be somehow rewarded, and the other player is going to somehow be punished/inconvenienced. Its also a lot of fun to go up against another player who technically should be able to beat you, and manage to outplay them and beat them.

No risk= no reward
High risk = high reward
Low risk = low reward.

To me this is the formula that makes these games fun...

[OrabIbo]

*sigh* okay, here we go again. I realize PvP is ALWAYS a fight to the death. This is not what I'm worried about.

It's your everyday encounters, what you do to do to earn XP, faction and money. The grind if you will. Even though the word "grind" puts a foul taste in most ppls minds. It's hard not to have it in any game because you will always need to do something to earn XP. And this will always be refered to as "The Grind".

But these encounters with NPC's that we will have to earn XP. There will be times, when you have bitten off more than you can chew, or another NPC has aggro'ed you and another nearby NPC linked. Now your low on health and you have 2 ppl fighting you. It is to much and to save your skin you need to run.

Thing is CAN you run?

General starship combat rules dictate in a battle it is best to disable your enemy. or hit them where it will hurt the most. You want to immobilize or hinder your enemy from being able to fight back. Best way to do this is slow them down by hitting the impulse engines, or Hitting their Warp engines, causing them to have decreased power available for them to use on other ship systems or if Warp engines are totally destroyed the inability to Warp away at all!

What are some ways to get around this issue/problem? After all the time when you want to run away. You will probably not be able to do so very effectively.

What sort of mechanisms in Star Trek can their be to allow a person to get away? What can we do to "root" and enemy to slow them down temporarily that would be Star Trek techno babble friendly?

EMP bursts? Revers polarity on tractor beam to knock them off course? Duck in to a Nebula to decrease sensor effectiveness making it more difficult to target/find you? Cloak? Disable Sensors?,

Should it be really difficult to damage impulse engines or Warp engines? Should our engineers have abilities to perform Scotty type engineering "Miracles"! Like hotwire the impulse engines to get out of a jam just to have them burn out shortly afterwards and requre extended repair?

C'mon guys, lets get those imaginations a going. This is truely a legitimate in game issue that is in need of creative solutions. I'm just trying to get some brainstorming going and some desperately needed constructive discussions in these forums!

[OrabIbo]

I am reading thread and the one call Ramming speed thread . And the problem I have in this thread members saying I will just blow up my ship if I can't run away or ram them . But I think we should have ramming speed and Self Destruct as a option but have it so you have to meet a few condition before you get to use both options, and have heavy Penalty with it.

For Ramming condition to be met
1. no weapons
2 no or low shields( low as in 10%)
3. Impulse Drive working.
4. attacking ship is in close range.

For Self Destrust condition to be met
1. no weapons
2. no shields
3. Impulse Drive and warp Drive gone.
4. have about 90% hull damage.

Penalty can be like after your ship blow up and you respawn to a near by space station or friendly planet your shield is like 30% weaking for 15-30 mins. and 30% hull damage. and low crew numbers. For Self Destrust let it do 10% damage if your ship is close. A Example I can use is a Ninja in FFXI 2 hour move a ninja can self Destrust he lose all his HP(around 800-1200 HP) and can do around 200 damage.To monster his lvl range. With a penalty system in place members can have the option but have a price to pay.

I like these "Conditions Met" idea. I'm not a big fan of Ramming. But if it is a rare instance that it will happen, with a limit on letting it happen repeatedly. I wouldn't mind it so much. These are the creative innovative ideas I'm trying to get to discuss about.

As a FFXI player myself, I liked the powerful 2hr abilities. there were great moves to pull to get you or your party out of a jam. These same kind of abilities have been seen in Star Trek shows repeatedly. like being on the brink of destruction, and somebody figures out how to make the ship look derelict, to preform a devastating attack. or disable the enemy tempoarily for a quick get away.

[Manx]

This would be where maneuvers come in I guess.

Choosing the right maneuver in combat would not only be about putting yourself in an optimum firing position, but also minimizing the impact of return fire. In faster, more nimble ships, this may mean avoiding enemy fire completely; but for larger and slower vessels the trick would be to avoid presenting your opponent with an opportunity to strike at your critical systems.

Personally, I would not expect to be making any miraculous escapes after having my nacelles blown off; no matter how good my chief engineer is. But I do expect to be able to take steps to prevent that from happening in the first place.

NPCs shoot at me at their own risk :D

[C.M.K.]

What if every time you chose the ‘Run Away” tactic the ships computer came on and in the voice of one Mr. Picard you heard his memorable quote to Worf about tucking tail and running like a coward? Then you can either be infuriated like Worf and swear you would kill him if he were not just a voice coming from the computer, or you could suck it up like a man and fight to the bitter end... then again, this isn't a movie, and you will probably suffer worse for staying, but damn you would do Jean-Luc proud!
Gryph Out.